Giving and Seeking Forgiveness

Welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We're Dave and Ashley Willis. Ashley's looking for a review to read because we love reading your views. On this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. We are so glad you're here. And we've got a great topic. I know I say that every time, but then they're just also great. You know, we're in this series talking about our favorite marriage advice, and I love this one. And I really love the question that we get asked at the end. Stick around. I hope that you don't just listen to a few minutes of these podcasts and disappear, because at the end of every episode, we answer one of your questions. It can be about any topic. And they're all so great. The questions you guys send in and today's is just. It's really awesome and an important one and one I don't think we've ever addressed. So stick around for that. But first, my beautiful bride is going to share one of your reviews. Yes.

And I just want to thank all of you who have given us reviews and just let us know how you're loving the podcast and how it's helping your marriage. It really keeps us going and it keeps the team going, and we're just grateful for all of you listeners out there. So our review today is from Kevin from Wichita, Kansas. Five stars. And he says thank you for being open and honest about marriage and the things married couples face. I love the openness, the rawness, the truth, even when it's not easy. Thanks for modeling healthy communication in ways that are easily transferable. And I love that. That's really the heart of this. I mean, that's why we call it the naked marriage. We're going to give you all the truth, even sometimes when it's probably awkward and more than you want to hear. But we want to talk about the real issues that affect all of our marriages to let you know first and foremost that you're not alone, but also that there is hope that we can get through these hard times. And so thank you so much, Kevin, for sharing that with us. And let's dive into today's episode.

We've got such an important topic today, and I love this series we're in where we are talking about our favorite marriage advice nuggets of wisd them that were handed down to us from older, wiser couples that we applied to our own marriage and tried to live by. And today's piece of marriage advice that has changed our marriage and can change yours, too, is to Have a marriage that's full of grace, be quick to forgive and be quick to seek forgiveness. And if you'll do that, it'll be amazing what can happen in your heart and in your marriage. But forgiveness is one of those issues that is misunderstood by so many people. And, and because it's misunderstood, it's not applied in a healthy way by so many people. I think we assume forgiveness means pretending that the offense didn't happen or just not doing anything at all with it and moving on as if it didn't happen. And that's not what forgiveness is. So we're gonna talk about what is forgiveness, how to seek it, how to give it, and how to live in grace. And if you'll do these things, I'm telling you, this may be more than any other issue, can create peace in your marriage.

You know, it's so true. And so many times we talk to couples where one or maybe both of the spouses are dealing with unforgiveness, where they're holding onto something their spouse did or didn't do. And for whatever reason, even if they haven't even verbalized it, it's just, it's kind of become this wall between them. And usually, you know, when we have kind of sat and counseled with them, what it boils down to is the spouse especially that's holding onto that unforgiveness. And they'll usually say, well, I can't forgive, I can't forgive him for what he did, or I can't forgive her for what she did. And really what they're saying is I can't trust them. It's really, I can't trust them. And we've talked some on this podcast about the difference in trust and forgiveness, but I think it'd be good to go over it again. You know, trust is something that can only be earned and that's earned through consistent actions. That's earned through showing that you're willing to do the work to re earn the trust to being vulnerable and open and transparent. Now, in order for trust to be re earned, the first step is for the spouse who was wronged to forgive their spouse. And forgiveness is something that can only be given because we were first forgiven by God. And God tells us to do the very same thing and to offer that grace that he first gave us. And by giving that forgiveness, it's basically saying, I'm not gonna hold onto this, I'm not gonna resent you, I'm not gonna make you pay for this day after day. I'm gonna trust God to continue to do the work in you. And I'm going to trust that you are going to do the work to regain my trust. And, you know, a lot of times when it comes to regaining trust, it takes putting certain boundaries in place. Those are just the steps to rebuilding trust. And so you have to put those things in place. But as the person who has offered the forgiveness, we can't keep on bringing it up. We can't keep on, you know, stirring up the old things and holding it over our spouse's head because we're saying God is dealing with them. We're approaching it as something where we're letting go, and there's such freedom in that. And I think it's so misunderstood, like Dave said, because we think that by forgiving our spouse, we're saying it's okay and it didn't matter.

Right? And you can keep doing it because I'm just gonna.

But that's totally not.

Cause it's a misunderstanding of grace. It's like, yeah, you had that affair and that was wrong, and that hurt me. But because I have to live in grace, then I have to say that it's fine. And, you know, and if you keep doing it, I'll just keep forgiving it, and that's fine too. But no, forgiveness and trust and all these things, they require, like, that high standard of trust. And I love how you made that distinction between forgiveness and trust and the two things that they are and had so much wisdom there. And I think one of the biggest distinctions that Ashley pointed out is that when you forgive, when you're truly forgiving, what's happening is you're saying, just because I'm hurting, even if you're the one that caused that hurt, I'm giving up the right to hurt you back. And I'm giving that up because instead I want to pursue healing. It's really. Forgiveness is just that simple choice to pursue healing instead of revenge or retaliation. And this is what Jesus has done for us. You know, as followers of Christ, we look to him as our ultimate example of what forgiveness is. You know, he took on the pain and the punishment that was meant for us. That's what he did on the cross. And once we put our faith in him and ask for his forgiveness, he's already paid the price for our sin. He took the punishment that we deserved on the cross. And that's what sets us free. That's what makes us whole. And it frees us up to walk with him knowing that we don't have that debt anymore, that he's not holding our sins over our head or using it as ammunition against us. He's already paid the price for that, and he's saying, let's move forward. But at the same time, he expects, like, a high standard of us being willing to follow him in a new direction, a brand new direction. So a big part of the forgiveness that we receive from him is attached to a word the Bible calls repentance, which is just kind of a big word that means to turn around the other way. Yeah, you were doing one thing, you were acting one way. And to repent means to say, well, that was the wrong way. And so now I'm going to turn and I'm gonna go the right way. And if I step out of line and I'm going the wrong way again, then I'm gonna immediately ask for forgiveness again and I'm gonna repeat the process. I'm gonna repent, I'm gonna get back on the right track. But what we can't do is to continue walking down the wrong track, to continue to sin and at the same time, expect to have a healthy relationship or expect to be forgiven while we're going the wrong way. That's not how it works. You can't live a life in open rebellion and at the same time, expect to live in the grace and the peace that Jesus gave his life on the cross to give you. And in marriage, the principles are very similar. You can't continue to break your spouse's heart and trust and expect them to be the one to make sure that things are good in your relationship. Yeah, to clean it up and to get over it. No, that's not how it works at all. You've got to fight for that trust. You've got to say, look, I was wrong and I'm sorry, and I need accountability. I need, you know, I need you to walk alongside me and help me stay on this right path. But I am not going to expect you to condone or to enable or to put up with me living in this reckless way. That hurts me, and it hurts you and it hurts others. Sin never just hurts the person involved. It always has a broader impact than that. And if we truly want to live in grace and in love and in a healthy way, we've got to look at our own life and say, what am I doing that is consistently wounding my spouse, wounding the heart of God? And then how do I really apologize for that? And a real apology. Ashley's going to read you this list. It's about more than just saying I'm sorry. There are a few things more insulting than saying you're sorry for something and then nothing in your life changing or.

Saying, I'm sorry if you feel that way.

Oh, I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings. You know, that's worse than not saying anything because then you're not only not really apologizing, but you're insulting your spouse for caring. And a real apology is something so much more than saying sorry. Sweetie, do you want to read us the list?

It is. This is a list that Dave actually put online that I thought was so great, and it really resonated with people online because I think so many of us are like, yes, like, we need to all understand what a real apology looks like. So it says this. A real apology requires, number one, freely admitting fault. Okay? Saying I was wrong. You have to own the fact that you were wrong. Number two, fully accepting responsibility, fully accepting that you were wrong and it was your fault.

No excuses.

No excuses. Number three, humbly asking forgiveness, saying, please forgive me, you know, in your own time. Like, I'm not gonna put a time limit on this. I'm asking your forgiveness. Four, immediately changing behavior. So just like Dave was just describing, not going back and just continuing to do the sinful or, you know, whatever it is that you were doing wrong and expecting them to forgive you anyway, you have to have changed behavior. And number five, actively rebuilding trust. And again, like we talked about earlier, rebuilding trust requires putting boundaries in place. It. It requires being an open book. Okay? You have to be an open book. So when you wrong someone, especially your spouse, when you wrong your spouse and then you're seeking to rebuild trust, you have to be willing to answer whatever questions they're gonna ask you. So whatever it is you did wrong, if they're checking up on you, this isn't them holding it over your head. This is them making sure that you're walking the straight and narrow, that you're not falling back into old ways. Not because they're trying to make you feel bad, but because they actually care and they wanna make sure that you're going in that right direction, that you're truly repentant and that you're going towards God and all the good things he has for you and towards a stronger marriage and. And not going back. Cause a lot of times when we're dealing with something that's really hard, I think sometimes the person who's struggling, who did the wrong thing, sometimes, when times get tough, when your spouse is having a hard time with trusting you again and you feel like it's taking longer than you thought it would take. That's when we tend to fall back into old habits. But your spouse coming to you and asking how you're doing and just checking on you again, it's a good practice because it's just holding you accountable and you have to have accountability to rebuild trust.

Yeah, accountability is a huge aspect in all of this. I think sometimes when a person on the receiving end, the one who's actually rather giving forgiveness, part of what holds us back from really giving forgiveness, I think it's a few things. Number one, holding on to a grudge or holding on to this, this offense is it gives a person an illusion of control over a situation which had made them feel out of control. So let's say your spouse, they cheated on you, they had an affair, which is one of the worst ways you can possibly break the heart and trust of your spouse. So for the spouse who was victimized there, holding onto this, even for years, in some way, it's giving them this false sense of feeling like, well, I'm in control by holding onto this and holding this over your head. You made me feel out of control when you did this. That was not my choice. But it is my choice now to take back the control by holding this and making you pay for it. But what happens when we hold onto that grudge is that everybody loses. You know, it was St. Augustine, we shared this quote a lot. But 2,000 years ago, nearly he said, holding a grudge is like drinking poison and then hoping the other person dies. It really is self harm when you hold onto it. So when Jesus tells us to forgive, it's not just for the sake of the person you're forgiving. Cause sometimes you have to forgive somebody that's not even in your life anymore. Sometimes forgiveness means forgiving that person who hurt you when you were a child, forgiving somebody that's now dead and gone. And you'll never hear the words I'm sorry come out of their mouth. But choosing to forgive them is setting yourself free. Because until you do, you're allowing that person to keep hurting you. While you're holding onto that grudge, you're allowing them to continue to have control in certain ways over your thoughts and your life and your joy.

And.

And when you hand that over to God and you say, lord, you've got to take this for me. You've got to be the one to carry this and take this pain off of me so that I can live in freedom, that's what happens when you truly forgive. You're opening up your hands and your heart so that you can be free. And so look at it that way. Not in like, oh, I'm letting these people off the hook. No, you're letting yourself off the hook when you choose to forgive. And then it also, like we said earlier in the podcast, it starts the. The process where healing can happen for the relationship, where healing can happen for the person you're forgiving and for you. So everybody wins. God never tells you to do anything where you don't ultimately benefit from it. And forgiveness is certainly one of those things.

It's huge. And I think, you know, Dave, you kind of touched on this, but I want to kind of unpack this a little bit more. I think sometimes we can harbor unforgiveness, and it's not even really towards our spouse, but we're making our spouse pay for it.

Oh, yeah.

And it could be something that somebody else did to you or something that happened to you in your past. And I'll use this example. We have some dear friends of ours where the wife said in the early years of their marriage, she just had this unforgiveness towards her husband and this she was just very skeptical of him, feeling like he wouldn't be faithful. And he said in the beginning he was. So it was maddening to him. Cause he's like, I've not done anything wrong. Not when we were dating, not when we were married. Like, I've been faithful to you this entire time, and I'm going to be faithful to you. I don't know where this comes from. And there was such distress there. And she said through counseling, she realized that she was making her husband pay for what her dad did to her mother, and that she had been harboring unforgiveness towards her father and then, you know, putting it on her husband. And she didn't even realize she was doing this. But she said, I just kind of deep in my mind and heart was so hurt by what my dad did and hadn't really healed from that and hadn't forgiven him, that it was causing her trouble in her marriage. And she said it was so freeing to finally forgive her dad. And she said the crazy thing about it is her mother had forgiven her dad and she had been freed from it. And she said, you know, here she was, the child holding onto it. And those are deep wounds that we don't even sometimes realize we're carrying. And that was from, you know, when she was, like a preteen and here she was all the way up until she was, like, 30, making her husband pay for the sins of her father. And so, you know, we have to. Sometimes it takes things like counseling to really unpack. What is it like, what is making me feel resentment towards my spouse? And I think when you're really thinking about that, really praying about that. Cause the Holy Spirit will reveal that to you if it's nothing they've actually done, you need to really unpack some wounds that you have deep on your heart that you didn't even realize were there. And sometimes, I mean, it goes way back.

Yeah, it often does. And very often it is a father wound like you talked about. Not only for our friend whose dad cheated, even though I know several couples that are in that exact dynamic. The wife had grown up with a father who cheated or who left. And then now this wife carries this constant insecurity and even anger that she kind of directs against her husband. And until they identify where that is really coming from, it can just create, gosh, all kinds of wounds. But the father wound can also greatly impact men who. Who felt wounded or abandoned or hurt by their dad. And that can often manifest into anger in their own life and marriage as adults. There's a great resource that's totally free that if you happen to have that father wound. We weren't planning on taking it this angle, but I know there are a lot of folks that deal with this. A friend, John Finch, has put together basically, a movie, movie documentary called the Father Effect that's now available for free in both English and Spanish on YouTube. You can find it other places as well, but they've just made it available for free as a way to get this message to more people, because so many of us kind of carry those kind of wounds. I'm thankful that I do not that I have and have a wonderful dad. And I realize what a blessing that is, especially in the work that we do. And we see that man. We can have wounds from all different kinds of relationships, but there's something very unique about that father wound. And so, yeah, counseling, regardless of what your wound is, if you have a wound from the past, from a broken relationship, somebody that broke your heart or.

Your trust, it could be a past marriage.

It could be a past marriage. And you find yourself carrying that into your current situation. And your spouse, in some ways, is paying the price for that. I would encourage you to do something that both Ashley and I have done individually. And we talk about counseling a lot on here because we just so firmly believe in it meet with a counselor. You know, sit down with a good Christian counselor in your area. If you'd prefer to do it online, we've got a great counseling partner that can offer online counseling options. The website for that is getfaithful.com nakedmarriage and they would love to work with you and help you process that. And it will make a great impact not only in your marriage, but in your well being as an individual. And so that's a resource I would encourage you to check out to deal with those wounds. Because time does not heal all wounds. No, it does not. Whoever said that was just lying. I mean, that's just not the truth. But God can heal all wounds. And if you will really allow him, very often through a healthy, trained Christian counselor, deal with those wounds, you can, you can experience healing.

What we need to all experience is healing. You know, we don't want to continue on feeling disgruntled, feeling like we can't trust anybody. I mean, sometimes we go into a marriage thinking, you know, that like, you know, we don't even realize that we have a general distrust for people. I mean, there's some people out there where they've had so many people let them down. Yeah, they don't even know what a trusting relationship looks like. And things like counseling can just really help you to heal and unpack that. And also, I mean, it can really grow your faith. Going to a Christian counselor. And faithful counseling actually is Christian based. And I just can't emphasize that enough. You know, when you go to counseling, make sure that they are a Christian counselor because you definitely, you don't wanna not have God as part of your healing. Cause he is the healer. Right. And he can heal our deepest wounds and he can renew us. And he can help not only us individually, but when we heal, our marriage can also heal. And so don't wait until it gets worse. You know, go ahead and get the help that you need.

Man. Those are words to live by. You know, this is such, such an important topic. I mean, we could, we could talk for days and days and days about forgiveness. And we've, and we have in past podcast episodes. We also talk a lot about this in our Naked Marriage book and what forgiveness has kind of looked like in our own relationship through the years. And so I encourage you to check out those resources. And if this, if this is an area for you where there's kind of that root of bitterness that's taken root in your heart, or like Ashley said, if you've been just, you felt like You've been hurt so much that now you just kind of walk through life with this armor around your heart, not in a way to protect yourself, but in a way to really keep everybody else out. And you're not experiencing true intimacy. That's just not living a full life. And God has so much more for you than that. And it requires trusting enough to let your guard down, especially with your spouse. And if you don't know how to do that again, this could be an area where counseling could really help.

Absolutely. Well, this brings us to one of our favorite parts of the podcast. That's the Q and A. Oh, yeah. And so I'm excited to get to our question today. I'm gonna go ahead and read it for you. It says, I've been married a few months, and my husband sends this particular girl a meme at least once a week, most weeks, multiple times. I know a meme seems harmless, and it's just something funny, but the constant communication and the inside jokes make me feel like I'm on the outside. I have had multiple conversations with him about it, and he doesn't see it as a problem, even though it makes me uncomfortable. Please help. It's a great question.

Great question.

I'm so glad she brought. This is a great. I love talking about this because it's a huge issue for a lot of people.

It's a huge issue. And since he's not listening to you, go and get your husband real quick. And having put the earphones on. Okay. I'll give you a second. All right. Is it there? Okay. So, okay, this is to the dude that is sending funny memes and gifts, which is. I love sending funny memes.

You love a gift and a meme.

Yes, but, dude, you're flirting with this other woman. There's few things more intimate than trying to share inside jokes. It's just incredibly intimate. Man to woman.

It is.

Your wife has expressed to you that this bothers her, and you continue to do it. And so I'm just gonna tell you straight up, you're being an idiot. And I don't use strong words like that very often, but she's trying to be real nice and respectful to you, and I'm gonna take the nice filter off and tell you, like, stop. Yeah, like, stop. What's the deal?

Worth it.

What do you hope to gain through this that is worth more than the trust of your wife? She's not being the unreasonable one here. No, you are. And anybody that's listening, that's kind of in that same dynamic. If you are having any conversation with someone of the opposite sex that you would be uncomfortable having your spouse there watching the conversation, you're already out of line. That's already. It's an act of infidelity. Infidelity doesn't mean you're having sex with someone else. That's what we've taken it to mean. Infidelity just means broken trust. That's all it means. Fidelity, trust, infidelity, broken trust. And when we're taking any kind of area of secrecy in our marriage, we're breaking that trust because we're hoping we're keeping something away from our spouse. When every part of your marriage needs to be naked, it needs to be out in the open in this kind of situation, you're just kind of blatantly doing it and you're believing that it's harmless and. But listen, on so many levels, this is dangerous and wrong. The moment your spouse points out that something is bothering them, for you to continue to do it, knowing that it bothers them. Like that in itself, no matter what the situation is, even if it was otherwise harmless, if it bothers your spouse.

You know, from a place of innocence.

Right. Even if it was from a place of innocence, if it bothers your spouse, it's not worth doing. But in this situation, it really is something that's toxic. Take it from us, we've seen so many relationships that turn into affairs that start with these little seemingly innocuous, you know, inside jokes and conversations and texts mess. If you're even consistently texting a person of the opposite sex, that's not, it's.

Not your family member, it's not your.

Family member or your spouse that's not like directly work related. That in itself is so dangerous and there's nothing good that can come from it. And you can call me an old fuddy duddy. People still use that word. Well, back in my day, they did. I tell ya. Fucking.

If you use fuddy duddy, you could.

Use a payphone for a dime when I was a kid. So not really.

But in all seriousness though, it seems innocent, but it's very, very harmful.

It is, yeah.

And I'm just gonna. I'll be brutally honest, There was one time. Dave is a really funny guy and I love that. That was like one of the first things that attracted me to you all those years ago, 20 years ago. But I remember there was a lady at church who was kind of like going through something hard and out of being kind, I was right there next to you, but you were being Real funny with her. And I just noticed her face. I noticed she liked it probably a little too much. And I took like, afterwards, I said, sweetie, I don't think you need to be making like any kind of funny thing with her anymore. And he goes, oh, my gosh. I didn't mean anything by that. I was just trying to, like, be kind. I know she's been through a lot. And I was like, I know your intentions, but it's not. It's just. It's given the wrong.

And it was a blind spot because I love to make people laugh. And it's just. But at the same time, I've also realized the power of connection that can happen through shared laughter. It's very, very binding. You know, I was watching a show and I'm so glad you pointed that out to me because, like, and you were right there with me, so I felt totally safe. But at the same time, I realized, like, wow, even with you right there.

That you were totally innocent.

It didn't mean anything, but it helped me see, you know, a truth there. I was watching a show one time and I thought this was such kind of a. It was a funny but really poignant commentary on life and relationships. And in this show, these two men were talking, and one of the men was talking about this woman that he was dating, and he was saying, yeah, I think our relationship's over. And he said, and his friend said, why do you think it's over? And he said, I. I saw her laughing with another man. And his friend said, oh, that's terrible. Are you sure they weren't just kissing? And it was funny, but it was also kind of true that, like, there's that shared. When you're cultivating shared one on one laughter with someone of the opposite sex, that is a deeply intimate thing. We don't think of it in terms of being intimate.

Well, it binds hearts.

Yeah. And even in marriage, we tell all people all the time, boundaries. It removes boundaries. It binds you together. Which is why we tell married couples within the safety of marriage, laugh all the time. Have every inside joke in the world, laugh all you can. But outside of marriage, man, that's. That's so dangerous.

So, dude, I want to say, I know we talked to the guy, but to the girl, I would just even, you know, when you go to him, I know, hopefully he does listen to this. Dave being so pointed with his answer. But I also, you know, it's going to require you talking to him and just say, listen, we. Why can't we have that rapport with each other. Why can't we have those jokes with each other and those memes with each other? You know, I feel like I'm on the outside and I'm the one who's supposed to be your best friend, who's supposed to be your confidant, the one that you laugh with that has all the inside jokes. And every time you send that meme, it just is so unsettling. And it makes me feel like I'm not even a priority. And like you have this secret world with this other woman. And so I just really hope that he listens to this. But I also am gonna be praying for you because I know that sometimes these blind spots are a little bit hard to get someone with the blind spot to see, but hopefully this is the day that he sees it and he can stop sending those memes to that other lady.

Yeah. Yeah. So if you find yourself in that situation, if you're laughing a little too much with somebody at work or wherever, pull back. And I seriously could tell story after story. I'm thinking of a couple. I know I'm not going to just belabor this point, but I did sit down in a counseling session with people who are actually friends of mine. And this guy with this lady at work was starting a very similar, in his mind, very innocent, playful kind of relationship, back and forth texts. And I eventually sat down with him and his wife and she. The wife was so wounded, like you said, like, devastating. Why don't you. Why don't you cut up with me like that? Like, I want that with you. And he just kind of blew off his wife, like she was the one who had a problem here eventually. Fast forward. Now. That guy has ended up leaving his wife. So it's tragic, but it starts with these little things that are left unchecked. And so just don't leave anything left unchecked in your marriage because it's often the things that seem little that can do the biggest damage.

And so I just want to say more power to you, the wife that wrote this, because you are right in how you're thinking. And I do think that being able to discuss this with your husband and is going to be a huge turning point for your marriage because you don't want to play with fire and get burned. And so thank you so much for writing in with that question.

Yeah, great question. You guys can submit your questions to be answered on air@nakedmarriagepodcast.com and you can also find us on social media. We're Ave and Ashleywillis on Instagram or if you just search the word marriage on Facebook, our marriage page will pop up and we answer the questions that come in through those messages as well. In addition to that, we're part of the team at XO Marriage, which has just an extensive library of amazing, amazing content and a great team of speakers. If you go to xomarriage.com, you can tap into the live events. Once those start back, hopefully very soon, along with a lot of free content in terms of blogs, videos, other podcasts. And we would love to connect with you there on a completely new and revamped website. Some people misspell marriage, right? This is what I'm so I'm just going to spell it for you. I don't always do this. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, but people put the A before the I and then. And then they think, well, that website doesn't exist. It's like, no, it's that we live in spell check era and none of us know how to spell. So here's how you spell it. It's X O M A R R I A G E Com. So if you ever make it onto a spelling bee or something, that might just give you a point right there.

All right, well, on that note, I will say see you guys next time. Thank you so much for joining us. Bye. Bye.