Having The Hard Conversation with Preston Sprinkle

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Hello, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And you guys, I am so excited about who we're going to interview today. We have one of our favorite podcasters on the podcast and his name is Preston Sprinkle. Many of you may have heard of him because you listen to the theology and the Raw podcast like we do, but we're going to talk about an issue that you may or may not want your kids in the car to talk about. And that is it has to do with LGBTQ issues. And Preston is an expert in this area and Dave's gonna tell you a little bit more about it.

Yes, absolutely. I'm so glad we're having this conversation and I do think that Preston is a great one to kind of help guide us through this conversation. Real quick, before I introduce him, I wanna let you know that just last week our brand new book, Married into the Family, the Not so Secret Guide to In Law Relationships, came out. We're so excited that it's now in your hands. This has been a labor of love for years putting this together, and I'm so exc. Excited to just start hearing the stories of how it impacts your family. So if you haven't gotten a copy of that, an audiobook or regular book, then get that on Amazon or wherever books are sold. You can get it here at the store@xomarriage.com and all those proceeds go back to support the ministry here at xo. And I really think Married into the Family can make a difference in your life. But Preston Sprinkle is a podcaster, a New York Times best selling author, wonderful guy, and he spent 10 years really focusing on how the church can have healthier conversations around the issues of lgbtq. And this is a politically polarized topic. Obviously, we're not trying to talk about this really from a political standpoint as much as a relational standpoint. Now, what we'll say up front, just as a precursor, and if you've listened for any length of time, you probably already know this, that we hold firmly, as does Preston, to a biblical view of marriage being between one man and one woman for life. But we also know that there are a lot of folks out in the culture, even within the church, and that are struggling in these areas, even within heterosexual couples where maybe one of those spouses has same sex attraction and feel shame around that or doesn't know what to do with that. And we just want to have a very honest conversation, hopefully a biblically based, honest conversation that will help all of us approach these issues, you know, without. Without fear or without fighting, but in a way that, you know, would. Would be healthy. And I'm excited that we're having it today. And thank you guys for. For listening in. We appreciate you. Let's dive into today's conversation. It is a special episode, an extra special episode. And I know I say that almost every week, but this day it is extra true because Preston Sprinkle.

That's right.

Is with us.

And Preston Sprinkle is just. What can you say about this guy? He's a New York Times best selling author. He is the founder and host of Theology in the Raw, which is not only one of the most popular Christian podcasts, but has also really formed a whole movement, including now the conference Exiles in Babylon, which meets annually in Idaho, and all kinds of things that are happening from where this podcast started. Preston's a great writer and just voice in the kingdom and the church today. And he's really smart. He's much smarter than me. You will see quickly.

You're super intelligent. Let's call it even. Let's call it even.

Well, you're too kind. But, Preston, welcome to the podcast.

Well, I just want to listen to you guys keep going. This is really soothing my soul right now.

Can you just do that for like, 25 minutes? He has amazing teeth. His teeth are white. And I can tell his oral hygiene is excellent. Oh, my gosh.

He's.

He has many books. I can tell. Not only that he's written, but.

Yeah, if you're watching on YouTube, you see this impressive library behind him.

So. Yeah, right.

You're jealous right now. You love a good study.

I do have. I have book envy.

I tell people it's just. It's just wallpaper. It's just wallpaper.

Wouldn't that be awesome if it was? That's great.

It's just a filter. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a green screen. Well, thank you both for having me on. I'm a huge fan and just truly honored to be on your show. So thanks for taking the time, of course.

Now, we've really been looking forward to this, and we're going to talk about something that we've gotten so many questions on over the years. And like we were saying before we hit record, you know, we have touched on this on the Naked Marriage podcast, but not really gone, you know, deep into the biblical backing and kind of where we're, as Christians, you know, how we approach homosexuality. It's, you know, it's a complicated conversation because people feel so. I guess they get emotional about this. And as, you know, Preston, like, people get very intense about this subject matter, and a lot of times it just causes division. And I feel like what I love that you do in your books, on your podcast and the conversations that you have is you. You just meet people wherever they are, and you listen to them, and you learn from them, and they learn from you, and they listen to you. And, you know, I'm just so. I feel like you're teaching us as Christians how to have, you know, smart, biblically based, loving, kind conversations. And. And I feel like as a. As a body of believers, this issue of homosexuality and even just lgbtq, a lot of times people get. They get nervous about talking about it, not because they hate on them necessarily or anything like that. I just think they don't know what to say.

Well, and it's become so politically charged, and it's become so like that these. These battle lines are drawn, and instead of, like a conversation, it just becomes a battle and a debate almost from the beginning. But again, I love, like Ashley said, we love, like, your. Your approach to say, what does the Bible say? And. And, you know, let's approach this relationally.

And you. You're.

You're great at building relationships with folks from all different backgrounds, and you've written books on these topics that are. That are masterfully done. So we just like, well, who better to talk to about this.

Thank you.

Than Preston? So, yeah, thanks for being part of the conversation.

Yeah, it's. It's a hard conversation. You know, like you said, there's. There's a lot of presuppositions, a lot of fears, a lot of just so much relational stuff that's intertwined with it. You know, I. I began. People ask me, how do you. How do you know? How do I get in? How did I get in this conversation? It really began as just, you know, I'm a. I'm a. I was a Bible college professor. I love theology. So I just kind of want to figure out on a theological level, like, hey, what Do I think the Bible says about this? I know, I know. You know, I grew up knowing what I believe, but I didn't know why I believed it kind of like what you guys are hinting at. And so I just dug in for myself and. And came to the understanding that I do think God created marriage to be between a man and a woman. So I, you know, hold very, very strongly to it, to a traditional view of marriage. And yet I also saw so much just relational damage that has been done, often unintentionally by the church toward LGBT people. You know, one thing people don't realize is that most LGBT people were raised in the church. According to a massive study that was done a few years ago, 83%. 83% of LGBT people were raised in the church. So that alone should just stop this kind of us versus them kind of language, you know, and we've done that for so many years. Us, them, us, them, when them. You know, a lot of them are sitting in our pews just silent and scared that somebody might find out what they're wrestling with. So anyway, that. That's, you know, that kind of drove me to want to, you know, embody both. Both truth and also grace and love in this conversation. And it's been an interesting 10 years, as you can imagine.

No, I think that's. That's so good, kind of bringing it back to marriage. So what would you. What would you say? So we. We get people that write us with this kind of situation. So they're married, couple been married for a while, and all of a sudden, you know, the. The wife will write us and say, you know, my husband is same sex attracted and not sure what to do. Those feelings or, you know, this is one we've received recently from actually several people. Like, my husband now is wanting to dress in my clothing, and it's. He's. He's saying he's not same sex attracted, but he is drawn to. To this. To dressing up like a woman. Like, she's like, I don't know what to do with that. Is this, like, repulsive to me? I don't know what to do with that. You know, that's actually two different scenarios and both pretty heavy to not just, like, drop on your doorstep, but you've. How. What would be some of your advice? And really, I'm asking selfishly here because, like, I want to be able to answer these folks with more than just here, read Preston's book, and I'll tell them that, too. But kind of a shorter answer. Where would where would you start with that?

Okay, so I am not a psychologist, not a counselor. So I want to make sure that whatever advice I give is basically based on 10 years of relationships with a lot of different LGBT people. Most of them are people of faith on some level. So that's all. Whatever I say is just based on that. So take it, evaluate it, Go see a better counselor. Ask him if Preston sprinkles right about what he said. So first of all, my first response is, if that's you, you are so not alone. You're so not alone. My inbox is filled with these kind of stories of people who are attracted to the same sex. Their spouse might not even know. I'm talking pastors, leaders, super conservative people that, for whatever reason, have these unchosen, un. Un. Undesired desires, if you. If you will. You know, I have a couple different friends that. One of them in particular. I was giving a talk on the very thing you're talking about men who, for whatever reason, have this desire to want to dress in women's clothing. And each one's going to be a different case and has. It has nothing. In most cases, it has nothing to do with sexual attraction.

Right.

So they're not. Let's just get. Let's get the LGB out of. That's just not the, you know, being attracted to the same sex. That is not what's going on here. They don't even know what's going on. I had a friend of mine, big, muscular, manly, the manliest guy, you know, stereotypical masculine guy, married to a woman, loves his wife, you know, opposite sex, attracted. I mean, checks every single straight box. But he came to me after hearing me talk, and he's like, that thing you're talking about. Yeah, I've struggled with that for years, and I don't know why. For what he. And he said, for whatever reason. And he was so just, you know, his head down, shoulders kind of bowed, like, so ashamed to even admit this. But he's like, for some reason, when I wrestle with anxiety, when I get high levels, anxiety, I. The only thing that reduces it is putting on, like. And he would say, like, women's like, lingerie or underwear, something silky smooth, maybe even more on the sexy side. And he. And he was like, I don't. I don't want to be a woman. I don't think I'm a woman. I'm not attracted to guy. You know, just. I. All I know is this is the only thing that reduces it, and I don't know why. And here's the kicker. I have nobody in the church I can talk to about it. I mean, can you imagine in a Bible study that that's a Bible. I call those Bible study stoppers, like, hey, let's go around and confess sin. And everybody says, well, I'm struggling with pride and I'm working too much and all these kind of socially acceptable sins. And when he raises his hand and says, well, I like to dress in women's lingerie because it calms my anxiety, that ends the Bible study. So he has no place to kind of air his kind of. Again, unintended. It's not like he's out like sleeping around or doing something evil. He's just like, I don't know what's going on here and I would love to work through it. So I mean. And I mean, that's one scenario. I mean, I could share so many stories of people in an opposite sex marriage where one of the partners is attracted to the same sex. Sometimes they're open about it, sometimes they're not. And I just again want to say, not only are you not alone, but I don't know each individual obviously, but I've seen so many marriages truly flourish with that kind of relationship. And I don't know if we can maybe go deeper into that. But marriage as you know, I mean, you guys would be the first ones that if you think any marriage is going to flourish based simply on sexual attraction, you probably shouldn't get married, right? No, I love that marriage is so much more than that.

So, yeah, I would love to camp out on that though. Like the, the flourishing in that dynamic because I think the people that write us and they're in that, they're like, my only hope is maybe surviving this marriage.

Yeah. But never fully having the kind of marriage I want. Like that. That's kind of where we, when we hear from people with this dynamic, you know, and they, they also feel so guilty. Even though they don't want these desires. They themselves have tried to, you know, to just not think that way. But then it will creep up again and they'll be like so defeated, you know, and, and the other spouse will.

Be as well because they're like, I'm never going to be enough for this person, you know, or. And yeah, it's so complicated. So, like that you've said. But, but there's hope to flourish even in that dynamic, even with those feelings. Like what, what does that look like?

There is, there is hope to flourish, I will say, depending on what needs to be Worked through. It might, it might be a lot of work. It might be a lot of deconstructing some assumptions about what makes for a flourishing marriage. Because a lot of us think, I would say especially guys, but not exclusively. But if you're a guy in this scenario, you know, a lot of our assumptions are, you know, what makes a marriage flourish as you're having sex like eight times a week or eight days a week, you know, and just like it's like the sex part is kind of a big kind of. And the pornification of our culture kind of exacerbates that. And, and so I, I would, I do think we need to deconstruct kind of some of the assumptions about what would make for a flourishing marriage. I would also say your marriage cannot especially well in this scenario, but any, in, in any marriage, right, you have to. You guys, I'm preaching to the choir here. But it, you need to get down to the gut level honesty, right? Like you need to be able to have just fundamental honest conversations with your spouse. I think your spouse would need in this case if it's a same sex attracted man and opposite sex woman, of course she's going to deal with I'll never be enough. Like these are very, very common feelings or I'm going to feel a sense of shame and inadequacy as a woman. And that could turn in, I mean that can have all kinds of. All those things really need to be talked about, exposed. And I would say work through with maybe somebody else in a similar scenario. Maybe a counselor that really understands this. The one for me, the off the chart best book on this is Lori Krieg. Lori and Matt Krieg wrote a book called the Impossible Marriage. She's same sex attracted, he's not and they have an incredibly honest relationship. They're both very spicy and it hasn't been easy at all all. So they don't candy coat anything, anything. But they do get down, they, they get down to the fundamental roots of the gospel and say until we get down to those roots, yeah, our marriage isn't going to go anywhere. But they've, they've, they've navigated it really well and talk very honestly about it in that book. So yeah, honesty with the spouse work. You probably need to work through a lot of stuff on, on both sides. But if you can do all that, I, again I, I don't like making promises, you know, but I sure I've seen many marriages that they didn't think they can flourish, that they actually flourish. Obviously they're going to have unique challenges. But guess what? We all. I mean, how many heterosexual marriages struggle daily with, like, wanting to be attracted to, you know, their spouse as opposed to everybody else they're looking at, you know, and wishing, you know, I wish I had that and this. I wish my husband was this, and I wish my wife was that. And so many unmet expectations in all marriages. So that's just. If you're facing that, welcome to the club. Like, let's not think, oh, this marriage can't work because we have these unmet expectations.

Yeah, I think we're kind of the kicker in people that we know well who've maybe been through this kind of dynamic, is that the one who is same sex attracted, if they start looking, I mean, and you don't have to look very far, there are whole groups of people that say, then you're supposed to leave, that that's not the right person for you, that you, you know, it's the church that's told you wrong. This is who you are. You know, I mean, you know, Preston, more than anybody, with all the research you've done, I mean, just. It's screaming loud like, you know, yes, you may love your spouse because you've spent all these years with them, but you're meant to be with a man or you're meant to be with a woman who's your same, you know, gender. What do you say to that? Because, like, that's a lot of times the dynamic that people are in. I mean, you do have. Sometimes you. You do have what you're describing, where it's very unwanted desires, and they. They want to forge, you know, move forward together as a married couple. But sometimes, you know, because there's a whole community, the LGBT community, you know, once. I mean, they're. They're very welcoming community to people who have those desires, and it can lure, you know, these people who struggle for so long.

What do you say, first of all, with. With all of these really profound pains in the human heart? I want to say I hear that. Like, I don't want to dismiss the power of that draw, you know, to be with somebody you desire. Like, we all. That. That's a very natural, normal cry of the human heart. Even if we're trying to make sense of where did this desire come from or whatever, I would all. I mean, and once we really linger in someone's relational cry there, you know, as we should, I guess my first maybe counter response, if you will, is like, if. If we're gonna. If we're Gonna legitimize or allow divorce based on one spouse desiring somebody who's not their spouse. I honest, I don't know a single marriage that would last. Like, if that's really the criteria for leaving a marriage, then that's just, that's just a fundamental different view of what marriage even is. Like, it's so different. Doesn't even have a scent of kind of Christian marriage. Like, that's this not right. That is a very secular understanding of marriage is all about falling in love romantically. And if that isn't there or stops, then you leave. Like, that's the glue that holds. That's the foundation of marriage is romantic desire. And that, that, yeah, that's, that's very common in a secular society, which is why divorce is so incredibly common. So we have to really unearth what is it? What is the Creator's design for marriage? The purpose of marriage? What is marriage? What is marriage for? What is the role of sexual desire in marriage? What do we do when sexual desires wane? Which again, I'm just thinking off the top.

I had.

Am I gonna name any names? But like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to find a heterosexual couple that I know where it's like, oh yeah, all that romantic stuff just, just bubbling over. You know, in our mid-50s when our kids are out of the house, we're all gonna struggle with that. So we just can't be led by or define marriage as, you know, we, we need to make sure that our sexual desires as a person are red hot. And if they're not, and if they're for somebody else, we go for somebody else. So. Yeah. So that said, I would want to take the discussion outside of gay versus straight coming. I would just say, let's just talk fund 30,000 foot level. What is marriage and what is a role sexual desires play. Play in that. So what's sad actually is I, I hear that message inside and inside the church, I'm sure.

Yeah.

You know, if, if, if you're same sex attracted, you have grounds to kind of leave this marriage. And that, that's. And it's like, man, what do we. That's when I go back to the drawing board, like, what are we doing as a. What are we doing wrong as a church where people have that kind of view of, of marriage. But all that to say, I would really want to begin that kind of by, by resonating with that because that truly we all want to love and be loved and know and be known like that. That cry of the human heart is very real and very powerful. And I don't want to just, I don't want to dismiss that.

I love that. And I think, you know, the reason I asked that question is I think that sometimes, especially if there is like a same sex attraction, people get so, you know, like you said, they're full, they're full of fear, full of misconceptions. They don't know what to say. And I think getting back to like, why did God create marriage and what is this all about? I mean it, that, that is, that's gotta be where we go first. And I, and I love that. I love that you made that point.

Yeah, it's so good. And before we go, I want to give you a chance to talk about your new book and we want to point people to your podcast as well. But before we get there, I want to ask a question that I forgot to ask because it's my favorite question. And we ask this whenever someone comes on the podcast. I want to know how you and your wife met.

Okay.

And your love story. So give you a chance to talk about her for a minute and then we'll, then we'll move to the, the wrap up.

I'll keep it brief. We met in Christian college out in California. We actually met in Roman's class and wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I like like most 23 year old, 22, 21 year old boys at that age. You know, my initial thing was wow. I was really physically attracted to her and then felt shame because I had a Christian college. I'm like, I'm not supposed to care about that. I need to look at her inner beauty and stuff. And then when I, you know, got to know like she has inner beauty as well. So we didn't actually date in college. We knew each other from a distance, but we both graduated from college single. And then pretty quickly we started dating. And a year after we graduated college, I was 25, she was 23. We ended up getting, getting married. My wife is, how would I even describe. She is. I often refer to her as like a cyborg because she literally, she homeschools our four kids. They're older now, but I mean she for, you know, off and on homeschooled our four kids. She's been the COO of a full time, non profit of full time. The podcast has kind of grown into a full time ministry. She books all my travel and then she doesn't need, she kind of doesn't. I call her psych. She doesn't really need sleep like she can get two hours of sleep and bounce out of bed and. All right, kids, what are we doing? Our kids are like exhausted, you know, so she has that kind of drive and passion and energy and I feel like the, the older she gets, the younger she gets, really. So, yeah, she's amazing. I wouldn't, I would literally quit my job if she wasn't around. I would just crumble and I'd probably go get a construction job somewhere, so.

Sounds like an amazing woman. That's awesome. And remind me, do you have all girls? For some reason, I think that I.

Have three girls, 20, 18 and 16, and then a 14 year old son. So yeah, it does feel like all girls sometimes.

I love that. Well, I've heard you talk about that before. And we have all boys. That's why I was asking. Ours, they're raging in age from 8 to 18, so, you know, it's a ride for sure. And that's so cool about your three girls and a boy. I love that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. Well, I want you to talk about your new book. Before you do, I want to just tell people. Guys, check out Theology and the Raw podcast. It's, you know, it's topics like we talked about today, but it is so much more. I mean, like the depth and the breadth of the conversations. It's really unlike anything else that's out there. And Preston's an amazing host, so check that out. But Preston, tell us about the new book and anything else you want to tell us.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I've been. For 10 years, my full time job basically has been helping the church engage the LGBTQ conversation with both truth and grace. So I've written a few books so far on the topic. My latest book is called does the Bible Support. My publisher always tells me to do this.

Here it is.

Does the Bible Support Same sex marriage? 21 conversations from a historically Christian view. Basically, it's. It's a. It's a shorter book that responds to all of the. What about this? What about that? You know, is the Bible even talking about consensual, monogamous, same sex relationships? Isn't love love? Is this just an agree to disagree issue? Jesus never mentioned homosexuality, so why should we care? You know, those kind of counter arguments to the historical view. I basically respond to all of the ones that I faced over the last 10 years. I also try to. I've got a. My opening chapter is probably my favorite chapter. It's how to have a profitable conversation. It just tries to model a better tone, a better posture in which we should go about these, you know, contentious issues. So it'd be great for. If you're a parent with an LGBT kid, a pastor, a leader, Christian leader, and you're facing some. Maybe push back to your. Your view of sexual ethics. I think it'd be a great. A great resource for you.

I love it.

Love it. We'll have that in the show notes. But, yeah, get anything. That book and any of the previous titles by Preston. It's a great resource.

It is.

Thank you.

And we just want to thank you so much for having this conversation with us. I know it's going to lead to more conversations with the listeners and those watching on YouTube. And I think, like you said, it's important conversations, and I love how you're teaching all of us to keep that conversation going, because that's really how we learn. That's how we learn and grow, even in Christ, in our walk with the Lord. So thank you so much for all that you're doing.

Preston, thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.