Help! My Spouse is an Addict

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Visit burlington.com coats for details. Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we undress the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. And before we dive into today's episode, which is amazing, I'm so excited. Cause we have a special guest. But before that, I wanna share a review with you. It is entitled Life Changing 5 stars from Sarah Adham, 17. And she says, My husband found this podcast and told me that I ought to give it a try. We thought we had a good marriage, but now that we've been listening to Dave and Ashley for a and practically applying what we're learning, we know that we can have a better marriage. And we're doing things. We were doing things that damaged our relationship and intimacy that we didn't even realize. We are closer than ever. And we talk about Dave and Ashley all the time. My husband says they're like our really close friends, only they've never met us. Lol. Thanks, Dave and Ashley. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. I hope to meet you one day maybe at one of our XO marriage conferences. But we just appreciate you guys so much for leaving us reviews. And if you want to leave a review, you can leave it wherever you listen to your podcasts. Dave's gonna tell us about today's awesome special guest.

Yeah, like, if you're. A lot of you are just listening to this. So if you're on itunes, Spotify, we're glad you're listening. But today you're not getting the full experience. Cause I'm sitting live in the studio with this like super handsome man who looks like he could be like a hair model also. And you're like, who is this guy? Who's this movie star that's sitting next to Dave and Ashley? Well, I'm glad you asked. His name is Dr. Jacques Debruckert. He's the husband of one of our team members, Rebecca Debruckert, who's right here in the studio with us as well. But Dr. DeBruckert is like, he is an expert on one of the most important topics that people write in about, and that is addiction issues. And also Included with that wrapped into that is past trauma, and we're gonna talk today about how those two things go together. He has got, like, just an incredibly impressive resume. He's practicing doing cad counseling therapy in two different states right now, Virginia and Texas. 17 years experience. The dude's like, you know, he's a martial artist, he's a personal trainer. I don't know how he has time to do it all. Like, his entire resume and list of where he's gone to school, it is so impressive. It looks like 20 people combined their resume and put it into one, and this guy has done it all right. But even more importantly, he has such a pure heart to help people, and what he's gonna share today with us on this podcast is gonna be life changing. It really, really, truly is. And I'm so excited to have him here. So, Dr. Debruckert, thank you for being here.

Thanks.

Let's dive in. I am so excited about this episode, and as you guys heard in the intro, we're here with Dr. Jacques Debruckert, and I am thrilled to be able to have this conversation because so many people have written into us or grabbed us at live events and said, listen, I love what you guys talk about, but our issue is kind of outside the realm of many of the normal topics because addiction is ravaging our marriage, our family, and we don't know what to do. And we talked some about addiction on past episodes. You know, our friends Eric and Kristin Kennedy came on and shared their personal testimony, but we've never been able to address it with an expert that. With someone on the clinical side and with just tons of education and experience to be able to help us unpack this complex issue. And so I'm so honored to have Jacques here with us today. And so, first off, just thanks. Thank you for coming, flying across the country to be here, live with us.

Yeah.

Yes.

But I appreciate the opportunity because I think that my experience in the clinical setting is showing that it does just rip marriages apart. And so every chance I can get to get that word out that there's some hope and there's some possibilities for healing out there. It's great. So thanks for having me.

That's awesome. And, you know, I think kind of our first thing that we need to talk about here is, you know, what exactly is addiction? Like, how do we know if our spouse is addicted or if we ourselves are addicted?

And that line that gets crossed. Yes, because we do have substances that we can use. Alcohol, for example, is legal, and we can use that right but when does it become a problem? And I think one of the issues that's difficult for people to understand is when did it become an addiction versus when am I just using it? So I'll give you an example. I've had clients come into my office and they will say themselves that they understood that it became addictive when they went, let's say with alcohol. When they went from they were drinking at night, they might have a drink or two to during the day, and then they found themselves drinking in the morning. And it's the out of place usage that then that becomes an understanding, that an awareness that it has become an addiction. But addiction is the compulsivity part of it. So the compulsion to use, and you're not using for social reasons. You go to a party, whatever you're using to cope, and it's the coping part of it, that, that's where that line starts to get crossed into addiction. It doesn't have to be, as I say, it doesn't have to be. You're pushing your belongings around in a shopping cart with 15 layers of clothing on, you know, and you've lost everything. That certainly is addiction. But addiction is the compulsivity to use, to be able to cope with whatever is bothering you, whatever is wrong.

Yeah, yeah. And that can certainly have not only a tremendous impact on an individual, but you know, for the context of what we're talking about today, specifically on a marriage. So what are some of the ways that that type of addictive behavior, specifically as it relates to substance abuse addiction, can really impact a marriage?

Well, to borrow from John Gottman, the idea of a marriage where you're turning towards each other. And in marriage we turn towards each other when we're looking for support and help and love, even in times of severe trouble. But when you start turning away from each other and if you put that into the context of addiction, you're using your substance to turn towards for the coping rather than your spouse. And that is a problem that creeps into the marriage over time. And so what you're trying to do is to teach people that you're turning away from your spouse, you're turning away from the. That person that really should be your support. And you're using a substance to find that support and that recovery and that feeling of what typically is trauma. They've experienced trauma and they can't handle that. So that's what I have found to be an understanding for the spouse.

Right. Let's say somebody is listening right now and they're like you are describing me. I just feel like whenever I'm stressed, I just want to go for that substance. I want to go for alcohol or maybe it's drugs. I know you specialize in heroin and alcohol, so maybe some listeners, it's heroin. And they're like, it's the secret. Maybe they haven't even. They've really been good about keeping it from their spouse, but they know that they're just addicted to it, and they keep on going back to it, and they feel helpless. What would you say to that person?

First, that you recognize it's a problem. And, like, when someone comes into my office, I know it's gotten bad. That's why they're there. So I just automatically assume it's gotten completely out of control. But when they have lost that control, they realize they're using the substance. But when they come in and I say, well, do you want to get clean and sober? They never say yes, because nobody ever wants to get clean and sober. Do you need to? And they'll say yes. And it's the want versus need. And what kind of happens there is. They don't see that they can do it. You know, they're lost. And that's what happens. And that's where the destruction in the marriage occurs, is because they feel lost. They're isolated, they feel lost. They've lost control. So I need to get clean and sober of whatever they're using. And the need then transitions to, I want to, okay, but the enemy has taken control of them totally at that point and has manipulated them into thinking that they can do this on their own or they don't need help or whatever. So that's where the want. No, they don't want to. They need to.

That's good.

Yeah, that is really good. And not to take this too far in another direction, but just as maybe for those listening, they're like, you know, I don't necessarily have an addiction to alcohol or drugs, but maybe I feel like I have these addictive, compulsive behaviors around things that I can't quit completely, like food, you know, that I'm turning in an unhealthy way to overeating or to overspending things that I can't stop completely the way that I can with maybe an alcohol addiction. But I recognize that there's this part of my life that's gotten out of control, and I don't know how to stop it altogether, But I also don't know how to manage it. I don't want to take the conversation Too far down that path. But just for those who are listening, that might. Well, I don't necessarily have that drinking problem, but I do have a part of my life that's gotten compulsive and gotten unhealthy. What would you suggest for folks in that kind of situation?

Well, I'll go down that path with you.

That's okay.

So the compulsion and then the drive to use. So let's understand why they're using. They're using because they feel uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable. So I want to feel comfortable. And they may use something initially that makes them feel comfortable. It progresses to I feel uncomfortable all the time. And the usage of whatever they're using, it could be anything, makes them feel comfortable for a short time, and then it wears off. So that's where that. That transition occurs, where they go from being uncomfortable to feeling like they're comfortable, but then not really being comfortable after a while. So then they want to reuse their drug of choice, whatever that drug is. And so the issue is, I feel uncomfortable. I can't somehow make myself feel comfortable with my spouse, because what I'm doing to feel comfortable is something that I know they don't want me to do, or they're upset about me using. So then I'm going to hide and isolate to use because I feel uncomfortable. And so now we're back to turning away versus turning towards in the marriage. And so feeling comfortable is something that you have to tackle. And that is where now we're at the point in my work with that person to work on what is the real problem. And it almost always boils down to trauma. They've had severe trauma in their life. I've only had two people in the 16 years or so come into my office and deny any kind of traumatic experience in childhood.

Right.

And I believe them. But I know that can happen, I guess, but not in my clinical experience. It's trauma and unaddressed trauma. And a lot of times the spouse has no idea that their spouse has physical or emotional or sexual abuse in their past. They just didn't know. Because it was never talked about.

Exactly. Because there's shame with trauma, you know, I mean, and they've been pushing it down further and further and further. And do you find, you know, in the work that you've done for all these years, you know, what does it take to bring someone in your office, like, what is the thing that usually brings them, the person who is addicted finally to you, what is it?

Probably one of two things. Loss.

Okay.

Or hopeless.

Okay.

They have lost one thing too many in their lives. They've lost their communication, their relationship with their child, with their spouse, with a sibling, with a parent. They've lost a job. They've lost something. Because addiction is about loss. It's a disease of loss. And so they've lost one thing too many. And they come in and they say, I can't. I don't know what to do. I lost my wife walked out on me, or my husband walked out, or I'm afraid they're going to. The second thing is the hopelessness thing. They have tried every. Probably everything they can think of to cope with. I feel uncomfortable. And those things have not worked. And so now they just kind of. They're just stationary. They're emotionally stationary. They are now self traumatizing. Their usage is traumatizing them on top of the trauma they already feel.

Right?

So they feel helpless and less than hopeful, right? So hopeful is where you want to move towards, and they don't know how to get there. So they seek professional help and say, you know, help me.

Right?

And that's a great. That's a great healthy step. And if you're listening to this right now and you are in that situation where you feel like there's an aspect of your life, specifically with addiction, that's gotten out of control. And as they say toward the beginning of the 12 steps, your life's become unmanageable as an aspect of that addiction. Then reach out and get help to someone like Dr. Debruckert or someone in your area or. We're gonna talk more as we move through this about those kind of specific action steps. But before we get there, I wanna ask kind of the million dollar question for those who've written us, and most of those who've written us, they're not necessarily the one who is addicted. They're the spouse of the one who is addicted. And the question, and we've heard it a hundred different ways from 100 different people is, you know, my spouse is dealing with this addiction, be it alcohol or whatever, fill in the blank. And I don't know what to do to help get them to a place of wanting recovery or recognizing the desperate need they have for recovery. So this addiction is. It's hurting them. It's potentially killing our marriage. I don't want to enable this behavior by just staying in it and not forcing a change. But I also don't want to do something that's going to push them further down this road of addiction. And so what would you suggest to that spouse who's listening to this, the whole reason they're listening, perhaps the majority of the people listening right now are in that boat. They're saying, my spouse doesn't seem to realize what a crisis this behavior is. I feel helpless. I don't know what to do. What can I do?

Well, and that's an interesting point, because the spouse comes in and feels like they've been victimized by the addict.

Sure.

Right?

Yes.

That's not the truth. Right. So the spouse comes in and they're at the end of their rope, and they think they've tried everything, and the person just keeps using. So they're viewing the addict as the problem. The addict is not the problem. The addiction is the coping mechanism that the addict's using. But they keep focusing on that addiction, their spouse, and saying, you, husband or wife, you're causing all these problems. You're causing this marriage to fall apart. You're the problem. So what you've done is you've stigmatized your spouse.

Yeah.

The fact is that addiction is the enemy. The spouse is not the enemy. And so two people who are facing a common enemy can then take that enemy on. If the enemy has manipulated you into thinking that your spouse is the problem. Now you're going after the spouse, and the spouse is going to get defensive. Okay. The enemy wins.

Right?

Right. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. So now you've turned your spouse into an enemy, and you're stigmatizing them. So they've got no choice but to be defensive and to counterattack or to retreat. And so then they will run because they want to use, because that's what the enemy keeps telling them to do. And then the spouse keeps pursuing. So as a spouse, there's really only one way you can look at that is a fight for your spouse, for your marriage, not against your spouse and against your marriage. So you are either part of the problem or you're part of the solution. There is no gray area in addiction recovery treatment at all. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution. And if you think that your spouse is the problem now you have a problem yourself, and you're going to be spinning around in circles. So the enemy works his way into your spouse's brain and tells them, you know, yes, keep using, Keep using. And then you as a spouse are standing there helplessly watching this, and you're lost. And you don't understand that what you should be doing is partnering with that spouse in that recovery process. So, and it's funny, I Will get one or the other spouse in my office, but not both at the same time. And so I'm talking to either the spouse who's the enabler or the non sober or the non addicted one. And then I'll have the spouse that's the addict. But it's hard to get them in together. Once I get them in together, I can start talking to them about the idea of, you know, you're fighting a common enemy, and it's not him or it's not her, it's this other entity over here who's using addiction as a weapon against your marriage and against you. And so that transition then brings hope into this fight.

I mean, my mind's spinning as you say that, because that mentality is a game changer in all parts of marriage when you realize we're always on the same team, we're never each other's enemy. And whatever struggle we're facing is a common enemy that we could fight together. But specifically to the context of addiction, I've never heard it described that way. And I think that is. That's a game changer, right?

And not making it a personal attack because like you're saying, it's like another level or layer of trauma, you know, because they feel, you know, they feel helpless to their addiction when they're in the midst of it. And then their spouse, who understandably is frustrated and is angry and feels wrong, like you said, they feel victimized and they have trauma. They're traumatized by what's been going on from seeing their spouse constantly give in to this addiction and do maybe terrible things because of it. You know, a lot of times when people are addicted, they will mistreat their spouse. You know, their personality is totally different all the time.

Right?

I mean, it's like they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. You know, there's different extremes of it, and I know you see it all, but it's just not. It's not how it's supposed to be, and it's not healthy. And they see that and they're like, yet you keep on doing it, and you keep on choosing this drug or this substance over our family. And so it's understandable, you know, that they feel that way. But I love how you. When you can take the personal attack out of it and know they're in your corner. You know, we always say it's never his problem or her problem, it's always our problem. But for some reason, when it comes to addiction, people don't see it that way in marriage because they're like, well, I'm not the one going doing heroin.

I'm not the one failure of will.

Exactly.

It's a failure of willpower.

Right.

So they. Yeah. To move it away from that. And what's really interesting is the spouse that is not the addict. They always look at it like they're angry. They're angry. The addict is never angry. They're getting beat on all the time. So finding a way where you can work through to the point where you re engage in a loving way toward your spouse, which is really hard when they're always drunk when you come home, or they're disappearing for three days at a time because they're going out and getting heroin and then showing back up again. It's really hard to be loving towards that person. But that is when you really need to be loving in a marriage. Right. In sickness and in health. Okay. Not just health. Health is easy. We're healthy, we're fine. We're okay. It's when in sickness. And you wouldn't do. It's funny, you wouldn't do that to somebody who had a heart attack or had cancer or was in a car accident and was paralyzed. You wouldn't start going after them personally or blaming them. So reengaging in that lovingness is really hard to do. When addiction is the tool that the.

Enemy'S using, how would you help a spouse navigate when that they want to love their spouse, they want to help them through this addiction. But the addiction has gotten to a place where the sober spouse feels physically unsafe, where perhaps the way that that person is responding in their addiction when they're high or when they're drunk or when they're using is in such a way where the addicted spouse's personality has changed so much and their response to the drug is violence, and they or their children don't feel safe in the home, how do you encourage that spouse to get safe physically while at the same time, even if there has to be some distance, to continue to try to help their addicted spouse and continue to try to preserve the marriage, even in that delicate balance of finding safety and space when it's needed, but not at the same time turning your back completely on your spouse, recognizing that they're sick. It's just a complicated dynamic.

So how does that person respond in a single word? Boundaries. Boundaries, Boundaries. Boundaries. The tough love version of it. Part of the problem, part of the solution. All right? The solution is boundaries. And if you're unsafe, if you feel unsafe, then you have to put a boundary around that. Call the police, leave the house, restraining orders, whatever it takes. Remember, we're trying to. Well, I'm saying we. As a clinician, I'm trying to maybe help that person get to that bottom that they gotta bounce around on and lose that one thing. Right. But what happens is the addict then starts manipulating the other spouse into making it their problem. I'm drinking, but it's your problem. And so that's a real common tactic. And again, we're fighting an enemy. We're not fighting the spouse. Right. But boundaries. You have to put boundaries down to eliminate things that are dangerous to your children, to yourself. And so it's like, no, you can't be here if you're using. No, you can't. And I spend a lot of time in my practice trying to get people to move towards putting a boundary down. And they don't want to because they feel like that's attacking the addiction and that's unfair, and they make me feel bad when I do that. But that's exactly what you have to do. So picking up the police, they're coming after you, and you feel physically threatened, call the police.

Yeah.

Oh, I can't do that. I can't do that. Yes, you can. And you have to. You know, the kids are not safe. You have to leave. Oh, I can't do that. What will the kids think? I don't know. They got a crazy addict in your house. What do you think they think now? You know?

Yeah. So, yeah, that's good.

It is. I know that's such a tough place to be. And, you know, we hear from people all the time in these different kind of dynamics. And I think one of the trickiest, you know, parts are when maybe there's not this clear, like, there's violence. And I know that's hard enough for them to make that decision when there has been violence, to be safe or to call the police or to leave, you know, whatever step needs to happen. But, like, what about those couples where a spouse is clearly an addict? Like, for example. I'll go ahead and share the story. So I heard from a woman. Her husband smokes pot all the time. Like, all the time. And it obviously changes his personality. And she said he's good in a lot of ways with doing certain tasks, but then he's gone a lot, going smoking pot with his friends or, like.

The thing that he does, and now it's illegal. Substance. Most places.

In some places, yeah.

It's not. So it's.

It's tricky Though. Cause it is. Sometimes it is legal. I can't remember where they live. But she was just saying how it's affecting. Like, she feels just like what we've been talking about. She feels like he's choosing this lifestyle of going and smoking pot all the time over their family. And she's tried to articulate it to him time and time again, and all he does is he says, well, it's not affecting. You know, I put the kids to bed and I'm bringing home money.

Right.

And she's like, well, it's more than that. I want to be with you, and I don't want you to be high. And then she even, you know, took it further, and she said, and then I found out that he's been doing it longer than I realized. And so now I don't even know if I ever really knew my husband. I mean, it's that whole other layer. I mean, that's. What do you say to someone like that?

Obligatory responsibilities in a marriage do not make up a marriage. You know, if it's about procreating and then raising another human being in a building, that's not a marriage. I don't believe. Right.

Yeah, you're exactly right.

It's certainly more than that, for sure.

So the concept of marriage is a bonding of two people in a loving, caring relationship and working through that. So they have checked out. And addiction is a disease of progression. Some drugs take longer to progress to the point of destruction. Alcohol is one of those. Marijuana is one of those. Heroin, crack cocaine, pretty rapid ascension into destruction. So, like, for example, alcohol, that can be 15 or 20 years before it becomes serious problems. I believe we'll find the same thing to be true with marijuana. So what do you do? Well, you know, yes, they were using before, absolutely. But being checked out in the marriage, again is something I deal with in my practice when I'm working through the addict's life with them as to what they're doing. And they are destroying the marriage. They just don't want to know that. They don't want to hear it out loud.

Right.

And for them, you know, a lot of times when they first time they say I'm an addict, you know, they're choking, and it's shocking. But they've been doing it for, I don't know, eight years. But I've forgotten what your question was. What was the question?

I love it. And everything you're saying is good. I think that this wife, you know, she was saying she doesn't know how to help him See what she's trying to say? Because he's like, I'm not, you know.

Like you said, I'm doing what I should be doing.

Right. I'm doing certain tasks. And she's like, you're missing it. I want to know you. I want to connect with you. And you just keep on getting high.

Well, that's where really good, competent addiction therapy, counseling or recovery, you know, helps the person who is experiencing that on the receiving end. The first thing I ask them is, well, are you going to Al Anon?

Yes.

Yes, no. What is that? And, you know, it's for the families. And when you go, you're not gonna get answers, but you're gonna feel in part of a community and it's gonna take a while. So I want you to go five times before you tell me what you think. Don't go once. Go five times, five different meetings and tell me what you think after that. They need to understand what addiction is because they're a victim of addiction. And to go back to what I first said, they're a victim just as much as the addict is. And so the crazy behavior of an addict is going to be out there. But, you know, when you experience it, it's crazy making, you know, it's gaslighting. It's all the passive aggressive stuff. So those tools that are used to manipulate the whole situation, they need to understand what is going on there. And the only way you can do that is if you get in a group and you hear other people explaining the same exact situation that you're in and you start to feel and you say something, you know, and in Al Anon, there's no cross talk, just like an AA or na, so I can say something and you can't respond to it. So, you know, and the first time they speak and they look around the room and they're seeing people nodding their heads and they're like, you know, they feel felt.

Right.

And it's probably the first time because they've been isolated, just like the addict.

Yeah.

So that's an important part, is feeling felt and feeling connected, being in a community.

And I'm hoping for people who are listening right now, even just in listening to this, you're feeling felt, you're feeling heard that like, oh, my goodness, I'm not crazy like that. They're describing what my life looks like, what my husband or my wife is doing. And I've felt like I was the only one or I was doing something wrong. So I'm just. This is so healthy and I hope that this is a liberating first step towards health for a lot of people who are listening.

Because you don't have to suffer with this. It doesn't have to go on. It's getting the proper help, whatever that is. How in your community, wherever you are. And you know, the ability to reach out for help is not limited to just walking into a room or walking into a doctor's office. You can get online and get help in real time. There are all kinds of aa, na, Al, Anon meetings online all around the world. So if I wanted to go to a meeting because I wanted to jump into some recovery community, I could do that with a meeting in England or Australia if I wanted to. You know, you can find anywhere. You can certainly walk into the rooms. That's what we refer to when you go to AA or na. Sure, sure, you can do that. You can find somebody who's an addiction specialist in your community that understands addiction and recovery. You can do that. You don't have to be isolated. But isolation is the primary tool that the enemy uses to destroy that marriage. And if you fight against, you fight against isolation, you fight against manipulation, you fight against anger, destruction, you will win.

Right? I love that. I mean, so many tools that you already shared with us, especially getting with other people. I think, like you said, just knowing you're not alone and having people who can also share their stories, what's worked, what hasn't worked. But are there any books or, you know, any books that you would recommend for the spouse that is trying to understand their spouse's addiction?

There's a book that I use frequently because the spouse typically doesn't understand the trauma aspect of the addict's behaviors. And so there's a million recovery books out there, but the one that's helpful for the spouse of an addict, and I actually change it because it's about trauma. It's the victim of trauma. Is your spouse loving? The adult child of an alcoholic by Dr. Bay is a great book. It gives an insight into why the addict behaves the way they do. And in that book, they use the term. We use a lot of acronyms and things. And the acoa, the adult child of an alcoholic, it's actually the adult child of a trauma victim.

Sure.

So the trauma victim is the one that experiences all of the torturous stuff. The spouse may not have that history. So they don't understand what it's like to grow up with a mom who is borderline and screaming at them all the time and gaslighting Them or a dad who's abusing mom in front of them or whatever their issue is. So it's a really good book. And I also have my addicts read that book, too, because they find themselves in there, and it's, like, shocking to them that there's so much of this that is me. I didn't know. Because they never got treatment. They never addressed any of their trauma because it was shameful.

Right. And to them, it's normal. You know, when you grow up a certain way, and odds are maybe you even have some other family members where that's been. That's how it was. And maybe even your parents. Parents. You know, I mean, it's like sometimes this has been going on for a while, and you don't know any different. You have no idea.

Yeah, no, I'm not.

It's not normal.

I've had to describe somebody who was Italian, and they lived in an Italian neighborhood in New York. And everybody was slapped around. And everybody. And that's what he said was like, well, that's what we. You know, everybody was like that. I'm like, whoa, this is traumatic, you know. Oh, well, you know, it was not a big deal. Well, no, it was. And we started drilling down, and it's a huge problem or even worse, the sexual abuse, because that does not get talked about. The families, a lot of times just ignore it. They don't want to talk about it. They don't want to acknowledge it. So it gets brushed under the carpet. And then when they become adults, they don't share with their spouse. A lot of times, people come in my office and they'll disclose for the first time in their adult life, they were molested when they were 4, 5, and 6 years old by the babysitter.

Oh, my goodness.

And nobody has ever known that except for their family, who didn't want to talk about it. They've been married for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. Never talked about. I mean, I had a woman who was in her late 60s describe being sexually molested as a child in a horrific way. And she was married, I don't know, 40 years, and the husband knew nothing about it.

Wow.

Wow. I mean. Yeah. Just getting to the bottom, like you said, of trauma that is causing, most likely causing this addiction is huge. You know, this has been amazing. Like, I know it's gonna be so helpful to so many people. So thank you so much for sharing all this.

Yeah. And I. And I just hope as a next step, you know, those who are listening, number one, they know healing's Possible.

Yes.

You know, I mean, you know, we talk about a savior on here, Jesus, who through him, all healing is possible. And a big part of the healing solution he has is. Is through community. When you read the Bible, so much of healing that takes place, it heals within the context of community and relationships. And so some of these groups that Dr. DeBrucker just talked about reach out to those as a great starting point, take action. Knowing that you're not alone, knowing that you're heard is a huge first step. And I hope that for some listening that have experienced that childhood trauma, let this be a moment to just give you that little bit of courage to start sharing your story and you'll find such freedom as you begin to share it and the healing that comes when you begin to share it, whatever that past trauma might be. I want to thank Dr. Jacques Debruckert again for being on here. And, Doc, tell us anything, any kind of, like, final words, any final words of wisdom you want to share. And then also let people know, if you want to let them know in your area where they can contact you for specific counseling or other broader resources you recommend. The floor is yours.

Okay. Well, you know, there's two parting things. Just to say what you said about community. We have a lot of sayings in recovery, and one of them is individuals don't get sober. Groups do community. You've got to be in the community. That's what the whole AA model is based on, is community. Na, aaa, al, anon. In any of those, it's be part of the group. Don't isolate. So that's one. The second one is that Melanie and I have forgotten the second one.

Hey, that's not really the first one.

The first one was so good.

Why do you need a second one?

The first one counts for at least three. But, you know, we are just. This is, I think, one of the most powerful episodes we've ever done because there's so much at stake with this topic. And you've put some handles on some really difficult to grasp concepts for folks who are living in the middle, midst of trauma, of addiction, of dealing with a spouse who's dealing with these things. And I'm so thankful for the work you do, and I'm so thankful for all the healthcare providers, all the mental health professionals, all those who are working in addiction, all those who are leading AA groups and celebrate recovery groups at your church or whatever the groups might be. You guys are on the front lines of really, really changing lives. And before we wrap up, I want to thank the other people in the room. And by the way, if you think of that second one, feel free to.

Well, I didn't. Yeah, I mean getting help. It was getting help.

There you go.

Yes. Don't wait to get help.

Find an addiction specialist. You know, I'm a solo practitioner, so my practice in Virginia, but I also have a practice in Dallas. You can certainly, you know, seek me out. Wellspring Mind body is my practice. Go to meetings, get the help. You know, find a way to connect into the community. And don't hide. That's, you know, be brave, be fearless.

I don't think we can end better than that. So be brave, be fearless, don't hide. And thank you all so much for listening, for watching, if you're watching on YouTube. And we hope you join us next time on the Naked Marriage podcast.