Hope in the Waiting

Hey there, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And you guys, we are going to be talking about a very important topic today, and we have some very special guests that are going to share with you. And I'm so excited about this conversation.

Yeah, we're super excited to welcome Dennis and Kara Duncan to the podcast. We've been to their church a few times. North Metro Church just outside.

Yeah, Shout out to North Metro Atlanta.

Great church. We've done some events, and Kara's got a great book. And this couple's story is really compelling, as many of you have written us, with issues and struggles you face related to infertility, the adoption journey. And these are very important issues. They can be very personal issues. And this couple's story, I think, is going to give you so much hope. They're an inspiring couple. We also want to shout out Dennis because this is his first podcast interview. First of many.

Go, Dennis.

Once you guys hear, you know he's going to be in demand after this. After you guys hear him. But we got him first.

And so right here on the Naked.

Marriage podcast, we're excited. Excited to have you guys both. So welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having us.

Well, tell us right from the start, before we jump into kind of the specifics of your. Of. Of the book aspect of your story. We always love to start out by asking people to tell us the beginning of their own love story. How you two met, what drew you to each other. Just roll back the clock and tell us how it all started.

Sounds good. We met through mutual friends, which is very sweet. So we would always see each other at our friends, different gatherings that they would have over the years, and it just never worked out for a couple years. Either I had a boyfriend or he had a girlfriend, but we couldn't help but notice each other. And then finally at one of those gatherings, I arrived and I was single and he was single. And so we just started talking, and we haven't stopped talking since.

I love that. And how long have you guys been married?

15 years.

15 years.

15 years goes by in a flash.

That is awesome.

Yeah.

It goes by so fast. I know. And you guys, I'm sure you've had lots of highs, but you've also had some lows. And I'd love for y' all to talk a little bit about specifically kind of the journey of the hardship that you've gone through. Like, we were kind of Talking about at the beginning, if you want to, wherever you want to start in the story.

Absolutely. So through our talking over the years and dating, getting to know each other, even before marriage, we talked about building a family. And what did we want that to look like? And so Dennis and I both agreed we'd like one, maybe two kids, but we wanted a chance just to be newlyweds first. So that was the plan. We were going to get married. We're going to have our first year, just he and I, newlyweds, kind of getting to know the rhythm and routine of being married. And so that first year expired and we thought, okay, this is it. Let's do what we have planned. Let's start this. And I think, naively, perhaps we just thought this should come pretty easily, naturally, like, especially because now we've decided it's time. And month after month went by, nothing was happening. And so we finally reached that dreaded one year mark where they kind of tell you both at the doctor's office. And when you read like, if you're having trouble after a year, you should probably reach out. So it's a vulnerable place to be. But I started with a phone call to the doctor's office to see if they could do some testing and help us figure out what's going on. And lots and lots of tests were connected for both of us. They did a lot of testing for me. I know you can speak to your testing that they did as well. And we arrived at the very unhelpful diagnosis of unexplained infertility, which no real answers. You don't know what's going on. You should be able to get pregnant, but you can't. Yeah. So that kind of sparked us a journey that took us seven years, informing our family. So through that journey, we experienced a lot of infertility treatments. We experienced then kind of transitioning and closing that door to adoption. Then we had a failed adoption. But then God is faithful. And in his timing, we were eventually then matched with our daughter Olivia, who's now 7 years old.

Oh, wow.

Wow.

It's wonderful.

It's a lot. It is wonderful. I'm so glad you have precious Olivia. But I know that in the midst of the seven years, like you said, of infertility, that is hard on a marriage.

Oh, sure.

I know. That's so hard on a marriage, emotionally.

Financially, like in every way.

You're exactly right. I mean, it's just so multifaceted and. And I know you tried. You said some different approaches. What was that time like, because I know from friends of ours who've walked through this, you know, depending on kind of what route you're going, sometimes it takes, like, the husband administering maybe some shots to the wife or, you know, lots of appointments. Like, what was that time like for you all?

It was testing in a lot of ways. I think the further we got into infertility, too, it kind of takes a little bit of that romance out of it right of now. It's timed. It's very exact. All of those doctor's appointments, you just feel a little bit more vulnerable to, like, oh, my goodness, how much more do they want from me in this journey? And like you've described, there's a season of even medication where Dennis had to administer shots. So it's testing.

Yeah, it's. It's tough. I think what I would say is, from a husband's perspective, right, it's like, you're in the game, but you're on the sidelines, and it's like, how do you help? Right? And it's. It's really hard because, like, you can only get in the game when you're called to. And I think it's. It's trying to see, like, something that we want so much, and. And Carol wanted, you know, you know, to be that mother, to have a child and be a mother. And obviously, it's. It's kind of like, I want to fix it, but I can't. So it's like, how do I be there for her and for us through that journey? And I will say, like, it's in the midst of it. It's like you go through, like, obviously most change, right? It's like, at first, it's like, kind of disbelief and a little bit of numb, you know, like, okay, is this. Is this for real? Okay, we can get through this. And then I think over time, it kind of starts to weigh heavier and heavier. And then you. You know, I think that's kind of where you try to make sure that we're doing the things intentionally to stay together and not pull us apart, right? So, yeah, most definitely. And it varies along that journey, right? Over that time frame that we've, you know, that seven years.

So what were some of the things you did to intentionally stay connected during that time and to try to keep. Keep romance alive when, you know, as you said, Kara, you know, certain. Certain things were working against you, but clearly, you guys have a. Have a strong relationship, and I know that took a lot of intentionality, especially during that difficult season. So what were some of the things you were doing during that seven years to stay connected, it was a lot.

Of different layers, so to speak. So we knew that this part of the journey certainly isn't fun by any stretch. And so we had to almost swing the pendulum intentionally the other way to say, okay, what can we start to do in our lives that is fun? So a lot of date nights, we tried to get creative with each other, even to say, like, what do you want to do this time that you know, would be meaningful and something that we would really enjoy. I would say, too, we learned over time to be really honest with each other at a much deeper level. I think when you're walking through this, there's so much pain that each of you is carrying, and you love that person so much that you don't want to, in some ways, expose that pain even further by saying, I'm hurting, too, and let me tell you why. But we had to learn, let me just share my heart with you and how heartbroken I am right now. And in some ways, it made it lighter. Like, at first, we were trying to protect each other almost by not sharing the details of how hurt we were. But over time, as we started to share, it felt a lot easier for us to battle that. I think we also tried to just talk proactively as we went through this journey to determine what are our boundaries together in all of this. Because as you progress through different treatments, it can be difficult to make decisions of what feels right for us in all areas, like you described earlier, Dave, physically, financially, emotionally. And so sometimes having those proactive conversations helped us know, like, hey, if we ever reach this point in the journey, we're going to draw the line and just stop treatment. And so that was really helpful for us as well.

I love that. I just. And what you're describing, I feel like having being empowered to make your decision together and being on the same page is huge. And because you guys were talking about it before that happened, investing in your relationship, but like you said, having fun, you're doing things where you're not just, you know, talking about this all the time, even though I know it was probably on your mind, you know, the whole time, but just going out of your way to be intentional, I think that's huge in staying on the same page and not letting resentment or frustration or disappointment get a foothold. Because I know, you know, a lot of my friends who've gone through infertility, they often say where it really got hard was when friends, close friends of theirs, or family members started having Kids. And it was like, you know, it seemed easy for them. And then there'd be the baby shower. And how was that for you? Because every time I hear that, I don't maybe that, you know, I know that hits hard. Even though you're happy for someone else. How did you handle those times?

I think it was giving ourselves grace to be both happy for them and sad for us. Yes. And it never meant that we had to necessarily show that to them, although there were a few close friends and family members that knew the sensitivity around it, and they were so kind and gracious to us in return. But learning a delicate balance of how can I honor and celebrate them in a way that feels right for me right now in this moment? But at the same time, too, how can I then privately kind of process this? And so, you know, certainly God is a fantastic listener, so pouring our hearts out to prayer was very relieving for us. And then just talking to each other of, like, gosh, you know, I'm so happy for them. I am joyful. But at the same time, it's so tough to hear that news. And sometimes it's tough when perhaps even that same person, because it's such a long journey, they have perhaps even multiple pregnancies, like, oh, man, I thought at least by this time I'd be able to share my news and have a turn. So it's hard. The Burlington Coat event is back. Buy a coat now through November 29th and get $5 off your merchandise purchase of 25 or more from December 6th through December 24th. Plus, Burlington is donating 50,000 new coats to help those in need nationwide. Through our partnership with Delivering Good. We've been keeping you warm for over 50 years. We'll see you at our coat event, Burlington Deals brands. Wow. Visit burlington.comcoates for details.

Man. And again, just, I think being together in that, like you said, and I. I don't want people to lose what you just said about crying out to God and him being so close to the brokenhearted. I mean, he's right there. He gets us. And. And I think that sometimes we can get angry with God when things aren't happening like we thought they should in the timing that they should and the season they should. You know, we can get so frustrated, but I think, like you said, just being able to cry out to him, it keeps us also close to the Lord because we can't go through things like this without God. I mean, it's tough.

Whatever we're facing, whether it's infertility or anything, any number, any issue that you face, you go to God first. And I think that's always the right place to start, is our first step, not as a last resort once we've tried everything else, but going to him first. And you two just did such a great job and still do of prioritizing your faith. But I'd love to hear your advice. Kind of like, I guess a two part question. What did you find most helpful for yourselves, for your marriage during that infertility season? And what advice would you give to those who are going through that infertility? And then a second part of that question is, what advice would you give to friends and relatives and loved ones of those who are going through infertility? Somebody that's, if, if you're close enough to them, where you've shared with them that this is, we're going through this. What are the best ways to encourage and support a couple or a friend or a relative who's, who's in that season and in that struggle?

Yeah, sure. So I think just sometimes being there to listen. Right. Like, I think we take for granted, like having somebody that we can be vulnerable with. Right. So if we've shared the struggles we're going through with family or friends, is there a way that, you know, we can just, hey, vent to them? Like, here's, here's my, here's my sadness, here's my happiness. Like, just being there for someone, I think would be definitely the key, you know, for, for somebody not to take for granted. I mean, I think it's always hard when you're on the other side where it's like, I don't want to say the wrong thing and, you know, and anything. Just checking in and saying, how are you doing? Not like, hey, have you got pregnant yet? You know, don't, don't lead with things that are the obvious outcome of what we're desiring. It's like, hey, you know, just, how are you doing? How is your marriage? Like, being there intentionally, but just checking on, checking in, like, you know, for, you know, I guess a good faith standing of, of how we're doing and through that journey. Because, I mean, we now know it's, it's lengthy. And I think sometimes people think, oh, you'll, it'll be next month, it'll be two months, three months. And I think people take for granted that, you know, sometimes that it's months, years, and sometimes never.

So. Yeah, yeah, for me, I would say I think one of the most. Well, there's two helpful things That I have to mention. I can't just do one. I think that prioritizing your quiet time with God, like, it's. It's a priority anytime, but especially like you mentioned, Dave, when you're going through a trial, it can be so easy and tempting sometimes just to say, well, I just want to shy away. This is too hurtful. I don't even want to carry this burden to him. But I found that by prioritizing that and being intentional, it really did lift my spirits. It helped align my heart to God. It helped me recenter my trust in him to know as much as I want this and I want it now and it's not happening according to my timeline, that I have to trust that he's put this desire in our heart for a reason and that he will be faithful. And it's our job to continue our journey and to deepen our faith and make sure that we're staying well connected. I remember one point in our journey. The other second helpful piece that I encountered was in one point when we were experiencing a failed match. I really felt like a misunderstanding. Whereas before, I think we were really understanding of each other's burden and what was happening. But when that happened, I felt this sense of disconnect where it was almost as though I was grieving more heavily than Dennis was. I knew he was sad. I knew he was brokenhearted about this chance that we thought we were going to be parents and we didn't end up being. And so at that point, I said, you know what? I think we need counseling. And so we reached out to our church and asked them for some referrals, got connected to a great counselor, and she was able to help just kind of peel back some of the layers that we just weren't understanding about each other at the time. She was able to help me see and both of us to see that, hey, once a woman is told that she's going to be a mom, that's all she needs to know. She's a mom from that moment forward. And it's a little bit different for a man until that baby is physically here. That's when it really, really hits him and becomes a little bit more grounded, like, oh, you're a parent now. And so just having that support through a really rocky season, both for us as individuals, but us as a couple was super helpful.

Absolutely.

And, you know, go ahead.

No, I was just going to say to that point.

Right.

I think, you know, I would say most guys would be like, I don't need counseling. I don't want counseling. Nothing's wrong for me, with me or, you know, all right, I'm processing this fine. But I think, you know, to lean in and for the sake of the marriage and for sake of your partner that you care deeply about is being open to what the needs are for her, for us, you know, So I would highly encourage others, you know, other men to lean in and say, hey, you know, I personally may not need this or may not feel like I need this, but, hey, let me lean in and. And actually do this. And, you know, at first, I wasn't against it, but it was kind of like, oh, wow. It was kind of eye opening. Like, it never clicked to me before that guys are very, you know, everything's sight and touch, and obviously, you know, we process things way differently. And so that was a. Like a. Just a big turning point for us to make sure that.

That.

That failed adoption didn't tear. Tear our marriage apart.

Right?

Yeah. And what I hear you guys saying is you didn't let it fester. Like, you got counseling sooner rather than later. And I just want to say it's never too late. I mean, get counseling, like, listening to this podcast. If you're watching or. I'm sorry, if you're watching or listening and you're going through a very similar situation to this precious couple, then, you know, get counseling now, even if you've waited. But I do think those who are maybe in the early stages of this or maybe even haven't had anything like this happen before, like, be quick to get counseling, even if the issue is not infertility or failed adoption. I mean, anything. I feel like. I feel like what you're saying is so correct that we tend to kind of push it away. Like, well, I don't know if I need that. I don't know if it's that bad. But I think, Carrie, you were so wise in saying, no, I don't want to lose this connection. Like, I feel a disconnect, and I'm not really sure why, because I think sometimes we can know why. But there are a lot of times where you're like, why is it, you know, before, when we were having infertility, we still somehow, you know, remain connected, but this time it's a little different. I think it's just so wise. There's so much wisdom in reaching out, because sometimes having that third party who is trained and being able to recognize these blind spots that we're experiencing, even if someone else in our life was able to point it out, it's Nice having that professional and feeling like we're not alone and being like, hey, there it is. You know, now I can understand my spouse better. I can understand myself better and even God, even building your trust in the Lord, you know, Because I love how you said that when you know that God has put that in your heart to be parents, that he is going to fulfill that some way, you know, that's a huge piece I know people need to hear. And, you know, the thing, I know we haven't talked an awful lot about it, but the failed adoption, that was that similar in, like, kind of the frustration, disappointment that you were feeling, was that similar to some of the infertility for you, Kara? Like, was it like another thing that's not being fulfilled? I mean, just if you guys want to talk a little bit more about those feelings, kind of what you went through.

Yeah. Every month during the infertility journey felt like a roller coaster. Almost like a timed roller coaster, though, right? Like you're gonna ride to the ascent to be hopeful and think, it's gonna be different this time. It's gonna happen, and then you have the crash and then you gotta get back on the ride and go again the next month. But when he had a failed adoption, when that happened for us, I had never at that point experienced a miscarriage. But it felt like what would have been the equivalent. Because in all ways, shapes and forms, I was ready to be a mom. Dennis was ready to be a dad. We had the nursery set up, we had planned time off from work. Everything was set and ready. And there were so many strong emotions then, once that happened, stronger than what I had experienced when we weren't able to get pregnant. And that was in part two. What kind of led me to say, I think I need a counselor, because these emotions are so strong and I really just don't have the skill set at this point or the tools to know. How do I best process this? Because I knew I didn't want that to fester inside of me. I wanted that to be something that I was able to express and relieve myself from. And I wanted to move towards a place of forgiveness, too, to say, okay, God, like, I don't want to harbor any resentment over this. I don't want to live my life with some sort of deep rooted anger inside of me. I want to be able to move on, but I just need help to get through it first.

Man, you know that I've never heard anybody explain it that way, but that makes sense that it would feel like a miscarriage. Because you said. I mean, here you got your nursery together. You guys are planning to be parents to this precious child, and.

And your heart's already.

Yes.

Your heart's in love with that child. Yeah. That's very.

It is a great loss, and you have to grieve that loss. You know, you go through those stages of grief with that. And so how, from the time that the adoption did not go through, when were you placed with Olivia?

Yeah.

Yeah.

The good news, we've had all this article. This story has a happy ending, Right. So tell us about Olivia. Yeah.

So this is one of the sweetest parts of our story, and Dennis is the one that realized this once. We kind of had all the chips fall into place. But the moment that adoption failed was very close to, if not earlier than, the time that Olivia was conceived. Wow. So we just felt like that was such a precious moment where God said, I knew that this failed adoption would be part of your story. I knew it would break your heart, but at the same time, I already had the plan in place. That's amazing. And so we didn't know, of course, until the very last minute about Olivia. So we spent that nine months just healing and waiting and praying and still believing that God would be faithful. And we just got that unexpected phone call one day of. I was at work. Dennis was at work. And I remember so vividly, I had my cell phone out, and I saw the adoption consultant's number pop up. And it was common for her to call. There's a lot of paperwork in the process. So I was really in the season of, like, really not trying to get my hopes up too high. And so I saw her number flash up, and I said, okay, just be patient. She's probably asking for paperwork. Don't get excited. So I answer the call, and she and I know each other pretty well at this point. So she said, hey, girl, what you doing? And again, I'm trying to be very calm, so I kept my voice low. And I said, working. Why? And she goes, because I have a baby girl for you, and you don't even know about her. And I just started weeping, and I fell to my knees, and I started shaking. I was just so excited and thrilled. And so I'm with my phone, trying to get Dennis dialed in, and he picks up, and I'm like, I've got Courtney in the line. And kind of my voice is squeaking even at this point. I'm like, can you. Can you tell him? And so she got to tell him the good news that he was about to be a dad and it was like nine days later then that we were able to take placement.

Oh my goodness.

That is. That's beautiful. I get misty eyed. I know.

I'm too.

Just God's goodness and your patience and your faithfulness through that and, and how God had such a precious plan for this amazing little girl. And for you two.

Yes. You're both gifts to each other, you know, and you to Olivia. Olivia to you. It's just. It is. I know we're both like, oh my goodness. It's just an amazing story and I love it and I'm so grateful that you guys are willing to share it because there are so many who are in that waiting season and they know that God has promised them something, but they're like, when will this be fulfilled? And it's so easy to grow tired and weary and doubtful and angry like you said. But I think that they can learn so much from your journey and how you all handle that, both individually, but also as a married couple. And knowing that God, you know, God keeps his promises. It's never in our timing because he sees the greater picture, but that he does fulfill those things, that, those longings of our heart. And I love that you actually, you talk about this in your book. Can you tell us more about that?

Yeah, Love Always Wins.

I love the title too, which is just the best.

Yeah. Tell folks where they can, where they can find it and anything else you want to tell folks about.

It's available on Amazon. So if you search for Love Always Wins and then my name K A R A and then last name Duncan. D U N C A N. But I wrote the book because I know for us that journey was not only just long, but it can feel at times very isolating and that you don't have a lot of others around you that really get it and understand your pain. And. And so this is a way to just not only allow somebody else to come alongside us and say, hey, you're not alone. Others have been through it, but to encourage them along their journey. All throughout the book, I've listed different tips and ways that I was able to grow or even just looking back, things that I would have hoped I would have done maybe sooner because I think that that's part of the beauty of community. When you do find other people that understand and get it, it's your chance to pour into them and not only share the details of your story, but to encourage them and maybe give them some advice on their journey of, hey, consider doing this or maybe Shy away from this right now while you're in this season of life.

It's so huge. You know, we didn't mention the subtitle, but it's so. It's Love Always Wins. One couple's story of infertility, adoption, and a faithful God. And I just love how you ended with and a faithful God. So it just shows that you're going to talk about all the hard stuff, but you're also going to talk about the hope we have in God. And so I just. I love it. You guys are such an amazing couple. And again, you really moved us and just challenged us. And I know that everyone listening will be challenged, too. Yes. And inspired.

Yeah. And I want to invite you guys to do something. We don't normally do this at the end, but I just felt. Felt prompted here that there are people listening right now that are in that season of waiting, of hurting, of struggling, you know, with infertility, with maybe a disappointing adoption journey, and their hearts are broken right now. And before we go, would one or both of you be willing to just say a prayer for those who are listening right now that are maybe where you were, just to pray a prayer of blessing over them to remind them that they're not alone in this, and we'd be happy to do it, but I just feel like it'd be more meaningful coming from you.

It would. It would.

We're honored. Thank you. Absolutely. God, thank you so much. For those that are listening right now, thank you for their hearts, God, and their journey that you placed them on. Lord, we know that there are going to be trials in life, and sometimes part of that trial ends up in this bucket of infertility, adoption challenges or even loss. And so I just pray over the hearts of those that are listening, God, that you would encourage them and give them hope, to know that you see them, you care about them beyond measure, you love them deeply, and that you are honored to carry them through this season. I pray, Lord, that this is an opportunity that they can draw closer to you and to know the tenderness, God, that you have for them, that you invite them into conversation where they can just pour out their heart to you in their pain, knowing that you do see their pain and you understand their heart's desire and remind them of your faithfulness and your goodness, Lord, that although they may not know the end of this journey at this moment, they can know and trust that you will continue to carry them through and to love them faithfully through them. I pray that you would strengthen marriages during this season, Lord. That this would be a time that they would really lean into each other. We know that it can be challenging and there can be frustrations, but I pray that these couples would remain patient with each other, faithful to each other, and that they can prioritize having fun as well as a couple, and learning to balance the dynamic of not only leaning into the challenge, but continuing to keep their marriage healthy. Thank you, God, for the honor that we have to share our story and for the stories that you're outlining for others. In your name I pray. Amen.

Amen. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Powerful. Thank you both so much.

Absolutely.