How Affairs Happen

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Well, Travis and Josie, welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We love having you guys here. And like we said in the intro, Travis and Josie are actual friends of ours. Like we do life with them. We live in the same town and go to the same church and we just dearly love their family and we are just thrilled to have you guys here today.

So welcome. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for having us. We're excited to be here.

Thanks.

Now we're super excited to have you here and we've had a lot of laughs through the years. Every time we get together, I feel like there's just so much joy and so much laughter and hopefully we're gonna have some of that today. But we're also today talking about pretty heavy, heavy subject matter. And we're doing it because I feel like this conversation is going to bring some real help and hope to folks who've walked through one of the most difficult situations that a marriage or life in general can face, which is the aftermath of an affair. And this is part of your all's testimony and something that you so graciously have offered to come and kind of share your journey with us. And there are people listening right now who I know are in that boat, maybe very fresh in it. Maybe they've just found out about their spouse's unfaithfulness or maybe they themselves have been caught up in an inappropriate relationship and they're just reeling. They're looking for next steps. They're wondering, is there any hope at all for our marriage? And I just want to right off the bat, just for all those who are listening, just say there is hope. And Jesus is bigger than our biggest mistakes. He's bigger than our biggest sin. He's bigger than our biggest pain. And Travis and Josie, they've walked through and continue to walk through the healing journey that can come when two people are willing to commit it all into God's hands. And so I'm hoping to not do a whole lot of talking today because these two have so much wisdom to share and we've been able to hear their story and we're just honored to share that with you. So guys, Travis and Josie, just to kind of to tee it up for you, you know, rewind the clock now Back three years ago. And take us to those early days after. After the. The affair came to light. And kind of right where some people are right now, when they're listening, they're right in that critical place. They. They Googled what do I do after I've had an affair, after my. My spouse has had an affair, and they have found this conversation. I believe by God's providence, they found this conversation. And so they're. They're there wondering, what do I do? And so take us back to when you were there and what were those early days like for you?

So right after I found out about what had happened, you know, honestly, I was in shock. This was. This wasn't anything that I ever believed would happen to me or to us. So I didn't have. This wasn't anything I suspected. So I was in real shock, which was traumatizing. Honestly. There was real trauma that took place in those first moments, those first few days after finding out. And, you know, honestly, I was just broken. I was brokenhearted. I was devastated. This was. I mean, he is my best friend, but he was my best friend. And the loss that I felt was just so huge.

Right.

Absolutely.

In those first moments, Josie, when you. When you realize what is.

Ha.

What had happened, and you're like, oh, my goodness, Travis, you know, has had an affair or is involved in an affair at the time, were you able. You know, how did you handle that? Were you able to address it with him? You know, what did that look like?

So, initially, I wasn't really made aware of the extent of everything, and at first, there was a good bit of denial on his part. I knew. I knew that something had happened or was happening. I just didn't know the extent of it. So I attempted to address it and face it. And there was a little. There was. There was a good bit of denial at first. And he can speak more to that. Yeah, yeah. So I definitely try to address it with him. Those. You know, especially that first. Those first couple of days. But, you know, it was just something that was, you know, really hard for. For him to face at the time.

Sure, yeah.

When I was made aware that she.

Knew.

I denied everything. I've been living in shame for the short period of time that this was going on. And so there I was, faced with my shame, and here I couldn't make the decision for myself to be upfront with her. The decision was made for me.

Right. She.

She found out about it and confronted me, and I wasn't ready. No one is. So when she approached me with it, I couldn't no longer deny that it was in my face. So I denied a lot of what she told me and then held on to that denial, only. Only from what she told me I admitted to. But there was more to it that didn't come out until months later.

Sure. Yeah.

And eventually. And I know in talking through this with you guys, I love the terminology you use when you. When everything's out on the table.

What.

What is that term you call it, like full. Full disclosure.

Disclosure, yes.

Can you describe that for me? Because when you guys tell it, it's just so. I feel like the process will be so helpful to those maybe walking through this.

So full disclosure is really just laying everything out there.

Right.

And like he said, full disclosure for us did not happen for about six months after initially finding out. And what that looked like was him sitting me down after about six months and just telling me the full extent of what had taken place, which, of course, was followed by a lot of questions from me. And him answering all of those questions.

And the level of detail was.

Really.

Up to her, how much she wanted to know. And in our situation, I gave all the details she asked for from beginning to end, when it started, where I was, what led me to this place. And I think that that goes along with full disclosure about her spouse, how much detail they actually ask for. Because a lot of times.

You.

You can't give as much detail as you would. As you would want to have, because you can't really explain sometimes everything that's going on, you know, to their. Because there's so many questions that are being asked.

Right.

And so I just had to, you know, give her everything that she asked for.

And that's so healthy. And if you're listening now and you're in that dynamic, and if you've not confessed everything or if you've held back on details your spouse has asked for, because in your mind, you're thinking, I'm trying to protect them by not sharing this or by not putting certain images and thoughts in their head. It's really. That secrecy doesn't ultimately protect them. It might cause pain in the short term, but your spouse needs to know that you will answer honestly any question. And the spouse that's been. That's been offended, that's been wronged, they have a right to as much detail as they want. And that's a wise thing that Travis and Josie did, was to get to that place of full disclosure where Travis was willing to answer every question in as much detail as she wanted. And I think that's a really practical step in the process for those who are listening, who are maybe in that. So, guys, as you moved forward from that kind of those full disclosure conversations, what did the next season look like in terms of what was most helpful? I know that you guys got into an affair recovery group. I'd love for you to talk some about that because I think that could be a really helpful step for those who are listening and let people know where they can even find that sort of thing. But then even at home, just your conversations at home, the dynamic of your relationship, how things looked differently, what do you remember about that season and specifically what was most helpful during that part of the healing?

So even before full disclosure. So right after I found out, I. Basically just got online and started looking for resources that I felt would be helpful because I was just looking for sort of hope. I didn't necessarily even know which way this was going to go. But in my desperation and in my pain, I was looking for hope. And I just happened to stumble across a fair recovery online. And basically, I mean, it was, it was YouTube and it was just videos of just story after story after story of couples who have walked this journey, who have, you know, who have gone through similar things and who have, you know, managed to heal from the pain of infidelity and come out on the other side of it. And so that was, you know, just weeks after I first found out. I was already watching those videos and Travis was even watching some of that with me. Wow. But really, the real work didn't really take place until full disclosure. And after everything came out, my things kind of shifted for me because I went from, I mean, of course I was sad initially, but I went from, you know, kind of this sad, lonely place to just full on anger after full disclosure, unfortunately.

Sure. And that's a natural response.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So post full disclosure is when, you know, I kind of had even just. I didn't know what to do. I almost decided to just, you know, I was thinking of walking away, honestly. And that's kind of when Travis, he kind of took the reins and decided to do his own looking into a fair recovery. And he, you know, looked for the resources and asked me to, to, you know, do a few things. I think the first thing we did was, was like a. I don't know if it was like a three day boot camp or something like that. And you know, I reluctantly, you know, chose to do that, which was really difficult.

Yeah, I'm sure. But.

I just can't say enough good things about affair recovery. The materials and the resources and the programs, they're all just designed to help people navigate something like this. And it was just really helpful for us. So after that boot camp, you know, things were not good. They were not, you know, we had completed it and which is good, but, you know, things were just not good. And so after that, there, there was another program that he decided, you know, he wanted to do and, you know, came to me again and asked if we could do that. And again, I was reluctant and fought through that a little bit, but ultimately decided to do it and, you know.

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During those first few months after full disclosure. I mean, it's probably the thing that really kind of saved us. Obviously God saved our marriage, but it was just something really practical that we could use that gave us the tools really to kind of figure everything out.

Leaning in on our pastor, we leaned in on prayer. And where we had unfortunately drifted away from a consistent church schedule. We got back into church heavily. I had to put in a lot of work. I wanted to put in a lot of work. What I was facing was the potential to lose my best friend. And I couldn't let that happen. So putting in all the effort, looking into resources, going over step by step, my story, whenever she asked for it, being willing to put in the work, confronting my shame, humbling myself so that I wouldn't live with the guilt and the shame was something that was very, very difficult. To manage. And just up till recently, you know, within the last year, I still struggled with the shame of it.

All. Right.

Yeah. Forgiving yourself is sometimes the hardest, you know, and, gosh, you guys are such an inspiration. You know, I remember just recently, we sat down and ate some yummy Mediterranean food together. And I remember you guys specifically talking about what a notable difference it has made in your life, you know, to choose the right people to surround yourself with. And I remember distinctly, and we don't have to say who in particular they were, but I do remember you guys saying there were different people, you know, that would tell you. Tell you, Josie, you know, why don't you cheat on him, too? And then you guys can be even. Or Travis, you would have people tell you, you know, she's never going to forgive you. You can't fully tell her what happened. And I remember you all saying this, and this was from multiple people in your life who, you know, love you. There's no doubt those people care about you, but didn't necessarily have good advice. And I. I think that's such an important point to make, is you have to be careful who you share this with. I remember you guys saying that, that you kind of learned that. And. And also to surround yourself with people that, you know. You know, love God, love you, love your spouse and. Or for your marriage. And can you guys speak a little more to that?

Sure. Yeah. I think that's a really important point to make safe people.

Yeah.

I think we made the mistake of probably over sharing in the beginning, especially on my part. But I do think it's important to find a couple of people that you can trust that you feel safe with, to kind of share. Share everything with and kind of walk through this with you. It's actually a really common response for a hurt spouse, to want to hurt, you know, in return and seek revenge. But ultimately, I think that in doing that, it just creates another layer of pain. Sure. I mean, had I chosen to do that, and I'm not saying that I didn't ever struggle with those thoughts. I'm human. But ultimately, had I chosen to do that, I would really be hurting myself. And. But, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, it's just. It's the way that people respond sometimes in an attempt to cope probably with the pain.

A lot of people doubted Josie and I and our marriage. They doubted our strength, doubted. They doubted her. They doubted me that we couldn't pull this back together. A lot of doubts. She's never going to trust you again. You might as well just hang up the towel now. Walk away, you know, with your, with your pride. And things were being whispered into her ear. But when it comes down to it, I felt completely compelled and wanted a long lasting marriage with you and really hated that I made the mistake. But I chose not to listen to those negative voices that were just trying their best to seek in and take over what a great thing that we had and still have.

Well, I think that's just a really. When I had heard that he was being told things like that, for me, I just think that's a really sad message to, to give somebody. Yeah. Yes, it was, it was bad. And sometimes people, you know, sometimes staying together isn't the best option for a couple, but there are times when, when it can work. You can, you can heal. You know, unfortunately, this is something that, that a lot of couples go through. You know, the struggles that he has, you know, his struggles, some of, some of his struggles he's carried with him for years. And, you know, these are just things that happen sometimes. I have my own struggles. Right.

So, yeah, yeah, you know, as I listen to you guys share your story and see where you are now, just, you know, just these few short years later, and I'm one, just as a friend, so proud of you and how you've chosen to fight for healing. But a few very practical things I've seen in both of you that I think are part of that healing journey, that for those listening and they're like, you know, what do we do to get to that place of healing? You know, Josie, for your part, you chose grace and grace as a choice, you know, over your feelings, because our feelings will lie to us. And I'm sure every feeling you had justifiably was saying, don't forgive, leave all those feelings. But instead you chose, say, lord, I'm going to trust this in your hands and I'm going to choose grace and I'm going to go to this affair recovery class. Even though I don't want to, even though I know it's going to be painful. I'm choosing to go as an extension of grace and as an opportunity to bring healing. And over and over again, you've had to make choices like that. And it shows your strength and it shows your character, shows your faith, and you're really just a hero in the story. And Travis, you did in the aftermath, you did a lot that was right as well. You were proactive in seeking out opportunities for healing. You know, you were the one that was taking the initiative to say, what can we do? I'm going to find solutions. I'm going to find some people who can help us. I'm going to find some programs that can help us. I'm going to take the lead there in this healing. I'm going to share with Josie everything she wants to know. I'm going to be completely honest. I'm going to be completely transparent. I'm going to let her see me fighting for her, and I'm going to keep doing that. And both of you have kept doing that. You've had to continue to choose to be that honest and transparent. And full disclosure has just become kind of part of your natural marriage now in all areas. And so we're really about out of time, but kind of bring us to just where you are right now, you know, what God's done over these last three years, what you're learning right now in this stage of the journey, and what you would say to those who are listening, who are maybe not as far along as you are, to give them some next steps.

Yeah. Well, so right now, I mean, honestly, there's still healing that's taking place. Healing is a process. It's a long process. I definitely feel like there has been. Been healing and believe that, you know, we've come out on the other side of it. You know, you wouldn't believe it, but you really can have an even better marriage after something like this. And I know. I heard that three years ago after finding out, and I thought, there's no way. There's no way that, one, we're going to survive it and get through it. And two, you know, we can have. We can have a good marriage after this, but it's the truth. And it takes a lot of work, a lot of work and a lot of effort on both parts. You know, for Travis, it did. It took a lot of. He, you know, he. He had to be completely honest. And, you know, there was vulnerability in that. That. That just. There was a lot that depended on his willingness to be open and honest. Sure.

And I grew up as a person.

Yeah, I feel like.

I feel like I've grown as a person, as a man through this. Unfortunately, this. This was a terrible thing, but it opened. It opened my eyes and my heart to a lot of wisdom that I had just been running from and denying. And so now I feel confident in our relationship. Not that I wasn't confident then. I just feel more confident now that I'm able to confront shame and push back the enemy with. With the Lord's strength. And, you know, even our day to day, I just. I see clearer and she sees me clear. Just as the Willises would say. It's a naked marriage. It's a naked marriage. And it's beautiful.

I love it, you guys. Seriously, it brings tears to my eyes. I just. I'm so proud of you guys. I want to echo what Dave said, and I want to say this too. They have mentioned a resource that meant the world to them, and that is a ministry called A Fair Recovery. And so if you Google A Fair Recovery, it is a Christian ministry. So it is biblically based. But what is so cool about this ministry, and correct me if I'm wrong, guys, this was actually started by a couple that did recover from an affair. And all the people that they kind of assign as leaders also have come through an affair. And I just always say that, you know, we can. Someone can teach you something, but there's nothing like someone teaching you something that they have also walked through. There is such power in that. And it's one of the main ways that I feel like God redeems something. And really it takes the sting, you know, takes some of the sting off of it, because God can use it for good. And I see you guys just today having such strength and being willing to use one of your darkest, hardest moments of your life to. To help, to allow God to use it for good in others lives. And I hope that this was cathartic for you in that way, because I know this isn't easy. And all the listeners and Those watching on YouTube, you all know this isn't easy. I mean, this is a couple just being so amazing and so just full of strength to do this today. And so I just want to thank you from the bottom of our heart for doing this. I'm just so grateful for you. I'm grateful to call you a friend. And we just love you guys.

Yeah, we love y' all too.

So what I would say to those that are struggling with this is that you should confront this and that there is hope. You're not alone. Talk to safe people. Sharing this story with safe people can help you. It can help your relationship. You don't have to fight this fight alone. Put God first in your life and it'll better you and your relationship and the people that you surround yourself with.

I love that, guys. Thank you. And I want to make sure I know there's going to be some listeners and people watching on YouTube who want to get in touch with you. And so, Josie, is there a way they can do that?

Yeah. So if anybody wants to reach out to us, they can email us@travisandjoseypitmanmail.com Travis.

And Josie Pittman and we're going to put that in the show notes.

And that's Josie J O S I E. Yes.

And Pittman with two T's P I.

T T I N. Travis and Josie Pittman all spelled out@gmail.com. and we'll put that in the show notes.

Yes.

Guys, thank you a million for just your real life beautiful example, your courage, your friendship. We love you guys. And for those who are listening, thank you for listening and please do us a favor. Share this episode. Even if this, this hasn't been part of your story, even if you yourself have not yet been through and hopefully maybe ever been through an affair and hopefully won't, there are many out there who need this message.

Yes, many.

So put this on social media. Text this episode to a friend if you know they've experienced this. I believe that what Travis and Josie have shared with us today will give us a lot of hope. If you want to talk to someone on our team, if this has kind of made you realize you need to talk to a counselor or talk to someone, we have a team here available that could be part of that healing journey. You can reach them@xomarriage.com help and and we just hope that that today's encouraged you once again. Thanks again, Travis and Josie.

Love you guys.

Bye.