How Do You Know When It's Over?

Hey, friends, welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And today, we have a bit of a more serious episode, but it's about one of the questions we get all the time.

Yeah. And that means this is really, in my mind, one of the most important episodes we've ever done. We're going to answer the questions of what do you do when your marriage is in crisis? And even more specifically, how do you know when a marriage is over? But before we dive into this important conversation, we've got an important resource we want to let you know about.

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Hey, thanks for listening today. Today's episode is going to be one that's on the heavier side, but it's also one where I believe that for those of you who are in a really difficult place listening to this, it could be one that gives you a lot of hope. Whether it is hope to keep fighting for a marriage that has not ended yet and to believe God for a miracle, or if it's hope to move forward because you've done everything you can do and your spouse has chosen to walk away and a hope of knowing that God is with you and he is for you. So I'm going to start off by just reading scripture, because scripture is always a good place to start. You know, I had a pastor mentor of mine when I was first starting out, and he said, now, Dave, listen, whenever you're preaching, use lots of scripture. That way you'll know at least something you said is actually true. And I loved that, and I think it's good advice for life. So I want to start out this podcast with this really delicate but important topic, just with scripture, so that we can start out knowing that the way we're starting the conversation is definitely true because it's straight from God's word. And this is from First Corinthians, chapter 7. This is the Apostle Paul writing. And I'm going to begin reading this in verse 10. Beginning in verse 10, he says, but for those who are married, I have a command that comes not from me, but from the Lord. A wife must not leave her husband, but if she does leave him, let her remain single, or else be reconciled to him, and the husband must not leave his wife. Now I will speak to the rest of you, though I do not have a direct command from the Lord. If a fellow believer has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to continue living with him, he must not leave her. And if a believing woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to continue living with her, she must not leave him. For the believing wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the believing husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not be holy. But now they're holy. But the husband or wife who isn't a believer insists on leaving. Let them go. In such cases, the believing husband or wife is no longer bound to the other. For God has called you to live in peace. Wow. Yeah, it's a lot in there. But it comes down to this. If you're doing everything you can, if you've done everything you can for your marriage and you feel like you're. You're fighting for this, you're praying for this, you're believing, and you have a spouse who chooses to leave, you can live at peace still. Like and I, this is biblical. This is straight from God's word. We're called to live in peace. You don't have to feel like that your life is over because you've done everything that you can and your spouse has chosen to leave, that somehow your whole destiny is ruined. God is with you, and he wants to carry you through this in peace. But what we want to talk about in this episode is, is how to do everything you can, how to do everything in your power to create room for God to do that miracle. And then if it gets to the point where you've done all that and your spouse walks away, how to know. Okay, it's time for me to move forward with my life in peace. Because I've done all I can and they've chosen to walk away.

That's right. So it is heavy. Because, you know, as you know from listening to this podcast, we believe that God is bigger than any problem we have in our marriages. But the truth is, it's two people in the marriage, and it's a really hard dynamic when one spouse is fighting and doing everything they can. They're saying all the prayers, they're reading all the books, they're going to counseling. They're going to even conferences by themselves. Like, I can't tell you how many times that we've been at one of our exo conferences and there is a spouse there by themself. And like, my heart goes out to them because they are doing the hard work, they are praying and they are believing. And I know that God sees them and God is with them through that. But the truth is, when it comes to marriage, it takes two people. And sometimes, you know, and our prayer is that sometimes it just takes that other spouse a little longer. And we just keep on saying those prayers and eventually they come alongside and they wanna start fighting for the marriage too. And we see those miracles every day. But there are certain times where maybe your spouse gets with another person and they've moved on, or maybe they file those papers and maybe they actually follow through with the divorce and you're kind of left here. Like, what do I do now? We just want to talk through, you know, what do you do? And you know, a lot of times we get questions like, well, how long do we wait? Like, how long do I wait until I know it's over? Like, how do I really know when it's over? And I would tell you, first and foremost, it's better. I think it's. We really have to be very cautious of allowing our mind to go there because when we're hurt and when our spouse has walked out and when we, you know, are just like, I don't even know how God's gonna, you know, bring us any kind of healing through this, it's easy to let our mind go there. But when our mind goes there and thinking like, when is it over? Then we're just focusing on looking for signs that it's over instead of focusing on looking for signs of hope and keeping on praying. And so, you know, I just would say err on the side of hope. Yeah, err on the side of, of keeping, praying and, and keep on being kind to your spouse. Keep on kind of, you know, putting out the olive branch, so to speak, and allowing them the space to come back to you and not completely cutting them off. But there are certain circumstances where for kind of like your own emotional well being and even physical well being and the wellbeing of your children, you have to let them go. And those are circumstances where we haven't really talked a lot about this. We could do entire episodes on this. I'm just going to talk about it a little bit and it's a big issue. But like, you know, where there's been physical abuse or there's been emotional abuse, like ongoing manipulative behavior. There's something called gaslighting, where maybe your spouse is making you feel like you're the problem and you're the crazy one and you're the cause of all the problems in the marriage. There's been, like, a lot of, you know, news stories on this lately. You know, when they're. When this is like an ongoing thing. You know, physical abuse is one of those things where you gotta get safe, you gotta get your children out of there. You can't allow physical abuse to be, you know, in your home. You have to be your own advocate and the advocate for your children. So you need to go to a safe place. And there are all kinds of ministries that help women in this situation. A lot of them are local. But even if you look it up online, there's, there's, there's like hotlines where you can immediately get to talk to someone. But I think the trickiest thing is emotional abuse because it's hard to know kind of what is constituted as emotional abuse. And if it is emotional abuse when you kind of have to let them go and say, like, I can't take this anymore. This is abuse. Unless you change, I can't be married to you any longer.

Yeah. Yeah. And those questions are situation by situation. But if you feel unsafe in your marriage, if you feel unsafe physically, if you feel unsafe because of perpetual verbal abuse, then I would insist on counseling. I would insist that you and your spouse get together with a Christian counselor and let a third party mediator really help work through those issues. Yes. And another thing we always recommend for couples in crisis is an intensive, a marriage intensive, which is usually a three to four day.

It's a game changer.

Specific. Yeah, it can be a game changer for couples who think they're heading toward divorce, where it can be the turning point. It doesn't fix everything in three or four days, but it can be the turning point in establishing some new patterns and new habits to lead you out of that pit and into a place of healing and freedom. And if you Google Christian marriage intensives, there'll be opportunities all over the country. Yes. One that we know of well is at the Windshape center in Rome, Georgia, just north of Atlanta, which has helped people that we know personally, but there are others as well. So there are resources out there. But I think a lot of people listening to something like this are thinking, well, I'm listening to this because I want to fix the marriage, but the whole problem is my spouse has no interest. They don't want to see a counselor. They don't want to do anything differently. They insist that there's not really a problem, or if there is a problem, it's certainly not them. What do you do in that situation? What do you do in that situation where you recognize that things are in crisis, but your spouse doesn't seem to care or doesn't seem to see things with the same perspective that you have? So, sweetie, what would you say to that person?

You know, it's such a hard dynamic to be in. And we go into a lot of detail about this dynamic.

We.

We kind of use a couch or a love seat and two chairs to demonstrate this dynamic where there's one spouse on the love seat really fighting for their marriage, and one spouse over in what we like to refer to as the me seat, who's just kind of. For whatever reason, they've kind of convinced themselves they don't need their spouse. They're doing their own thing. And sometimes they're choosing to stay married but not acting married. They're having an affair or even just having a separate life. They're not tied to their spouse in any way. They're just going through the motions of being more like business partners, raising the kids, but not really engaging anymore. And it's heartbreaking for that spouse who is on that love seat all alone, fighting for their marriage. And so what I would tell you first and foremost is keep on saying those prayers, Keep on being kind, asking them to come to counseling with you. But I think the best thing you can do in that situation, especially in the early days when you're like, okay, they've kind of tuned me out. What do I do? I would go to a Christian counselor. I mean, you've got to have someone in your corner that you can trust that really is neutral. You know, definitely talk to a trusted friend or family member. But I will tell you this. It's gonna be really hard for them to give you the best advice in that particular moment. Cause they're gonna be mad that your spouse is treating you this way, as they should be as a person who loves you. So in this particular situation, I would just say it's good to get a neutral person, because they can kind of help you look at it with fresh eyes and help you to walk through that. Because you need to have someone who is praying alongside you, who's giving you next steps, who's also helping you to have hope. Because it is so hard to maintain hope when you look in your spouse's eyes and they're like, dead to you. Or maybe they don't even look at you anymore. They just kind of act like you're not even there. And anytime you try to talk to them, they're just like, well, I don't, you know, it's none of your business, or I don't even really care what's going on with you. I mean, that's such a heartbreaking dynamic. But I do think too, if you. If this becomes prolonged where they are already acting like they're not married, like they have stepped out of the bounds of marriage, or they are lying to you constantly and keeping secrets constantly, and it's been a prolonged amount of time, then it's one of those moments where you kind of. Again, like the verses said, you. You have to let them go. But I will say this. Keep in mind that you still keep on praying and knowing that God can still do a miracle. And even if for some odd reason that miracle. Cause he works in. In. In different ways, even if that miracle is bringing your spouse back home, it doesn't mean your life is over. And I just want to be real clear on that. Like, our goal here is to bring spouses back together, is to see restoration in marriages. But there are some times where a spouse is just determined to leave the marriage. And we, you know, unfortunately, and fortunately. Cause, I mean, I don't want that power to control my spouse. I mean, only God knows what's really going on in their mind and heart. But we can't control each other. I mean, like, if you've been married for a day, you know that you can't control your spouse and you can't control the future. I mean, you have to do your part in praying and doing the things you know are right. But the rest is really up to God and your spouse's choices that they do. And so if they do choose to leave, you know, I don't want you to think that your life is doomed. And I do want to say this as well, is keep on praying for them, especially when you have children, because they're still going to be part of your life. And so you still want to have a good. A good relationship with them. But also, you know, there are times when. When it just takes that spouse a little longer and God does a miracle. I mean, Dave just went back to our home church where there were several couples that had been divorced or separated and it had been years. Okay, years. And they're coming back together.

Yeah.

Two separate instances.

And One, it was the wife who was believing and praying, you know, for a miracle while her husband had left and was, you know, shacked up with some other woman. And the other was the husband who was. He'd been in the military for years and all that time away from home. I think his wife was kind of unloved and it put her in a vulnerable position and she eventually stepped outside the marriage and had gotten with somebody else. And so. But he was the one believing and praying like, no, I believe God can still do a miracle. And they prayed, they continue to work to have peace. The Bible says, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Now, sometimes, like Ashley was saying earlier, that other spouse won't live at peace with you. And then you just have to. You have to have healthy boundaries in place to protect your own heart, your own life, your. Your family, your sanity. But you do what you can to extend peace and don't let bitterness take root in your heart because no one can win. And it is a challenge. But that's only going to hurt you. It was, you know, the quote, holding a grudge is like drinking poison and then hoping the other person dies. Don't drink the poison of bitterness right? When only. It's going to only hurt you. So God can still do miracles. And it's so encouraging to see these couples who were divorced now be getting remarried. But if that isn't what happens, you know, if your spouse just continues down that path and you've done all, you can move forward with peace. Like, you don't have to beat yourself up, like somehow it's your fault, like it's, you did something terribly wrong and your life is over, or God doesn't love you anymore, or whatever lies the enemy's whispering to you, you can live at peace and move forward. So I'm so thankful for the miracles that take place. I'm thankful for the coaches that we have here at Marriage today, who even via Skype, if you're not here in the Dallas area where we are, can meet with you one on one. And when Ashley was referring earlier to counseling, that can be a one on one thing that she was talking about. You can go meet with that counselor alone. Our coaches can talk with you alone. If your spouse isn't in a place where he or she's willing to meet.

With you, but keep on inviting them to come. Keep on doing it alone, but always put out the invitation, like, I would love for you to come. Like, this counselor's helping me so much to realize places where I needed healing personally, because you don't make it just all about the problems they have. And that really tends to open up the door with a spouse, especially if their heart is kind of hardened. If you talk about how you're healing personally and even apologize for maybe things that you've seen in your own frailty that, you know, you could make improvements, and it really opens the door because I think where we get, especially if we're in that hard season where, you know, we're fighting for the marriage, but our spouse is really checked out when you can come to them and humbly say, like, listen, you know, I know there's things that I need to do and I'm realizing that in counseling, things I need to heal from that were from my past, things that I need to do better in our marriage. And I would love for you to come with me because I want to kind of explore that together. And you don't make it all about them and their problems, but you make it more about you. And it kind of opens the door, don't you think, sweetie?

Yes. Yeah. It is very disarming when you can lead with humility and with taking responsibility, but at the same time, don't feel like you've got to beat yourself up.

Do not be and do not become a doormat.

Don't be a doormat to feed into, you know, a narcissistic, perhaps personality of a spouse who never will accept any responsibility.

Yes.

Finding that balance between owning anything you've done or may have done while at the same time not allowing your spouse to live in the false mindset that their behaviors, which might be hurtful and reckless aren't hurtful. I think you can still communicate that you are hurt by specific things that they're doing. To give kind of a real, specific example of kind of how do you fight for your marriage when things are really, really cold and extreme? And this is an extreme situation. But I recently met with a friend, very good friend, strong Christian guy, as is his wife, which makes this even more confusing and difficult. She just said she wanted out of the marriage. They have, you know, they have a big family, they have kids. She was unhappy with the dynamic. And there were reasons for that, though. There had been no infidelity, no abuse, nothing like that. But she was unhappy and she wanted out. And then she decided that instead of divorcing because they didn't really want to get divorced, she was insisting on a dynamic where they lived in the same house but just co parented that the marriage itself was over. She insisted on him sleeping in another bedroom.

They don't share in a bank account.

Yeah. And.

And so they don't know what the other's doing.

Living as divorced people while still married. And my friend is heartbroken. And he, in a way to try to create an opportunity for a miracle, create an opportunity for peace, is tried to accommodate everything she's wanted to do. They. They did meet with a counselor for a while. She has stopped wanting to do that. And so I think he's meeting with the counselor alone, but he's just unsure what to do. He's like, I'm setting an example for my kids that this is an okay dynamic when it is so broken and it is so messed up and I'm. And it's showing my kids that this is okay. And that breaks my heart. You know, this woman I love is in the next room. You know, we haven't made love in forever. We don't. We don't share lives. She. I have no idea what she's doing. She's not giving me access. What do you do in that kind of situation? And what I suggested, I said, listen, keep loving her, keep trying to serve her. But there comes a point where it's. Clearly, this dynamic isn't working, where you also have to say, we're married, and I insist on us living as a married couple. Like, this is my bedroom, too. I'm coming back into the bedroom. And if it makes you uncomfortable to the point where you feel like you have to leave, then you be the one to leave. But know that I'm going to do everything in my power to. To fight for this marriage and to fight for you and to pursue this. And I'm not going to live separate, just on the sidelines, throwing up the white flag of surrender, saying, we're just going to live in this broken dynamic. I'm going to fight for it, and I'm going to fight for you. As exhausted and confused as I am, not even knowing how to fix things, I feel like I'm wandering around in the dark blindfolded. But I'm going to trust that God is going to fight this battle with us and for us. And so we're going to start living as husband and wife again. And if. If your spouse won't do that, then at that point, maybe they're the one to leave. And it comes back to the scripture of, if they insist on leaving, let them leave in peace and, you know, let them know that the door is open and that you want reconciliation, but you're not Going to. You're not going to let their sinful, rebellious choice to walk away from the marriage sabotage you or your family of the peace that God wants you to have.

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It's so true. And just that dynamic of fighting for your marriage and saying, like, I'm not going to live separately, I'm going to fight for us. Because there is that. You know, it's one thing when your spouse ask for a little bit of space. I mean, definitely give them a little bit of space to process. But if they're asking for prolonged, like, permanent, like permanent, like, we're just gonna live, you know, we're gonna say we're married but live completely separately. That's not a healthy dynamic. And especially if you have kids in the house, I mean, that is not how you want your kids to think marriage is supposed to be. And it's not how God designed marriage. And so that concept of fighting and saying, we're gonna do this, we're gonna fight together. And you know, I understand if, if you don't wanna make love quite yet, but I wanna work towards making loved ones again. I understand if you, you know, you don't want to go on a date quite yet, but I want to fight, you know, towards for each other so that we can eventually get back to having intimacy, get back to having conversation. And let me tell you that one thing alone. We've walked through this with many couples, but we've had, you know, in recent years, we've had a very close couple in our life where I will never forget Dave talking to the husband and telling him to do this. And the wife at that time had a hard heart.

She did, yeah.

She did not want to have anything. She was wanting to divorce and she.

Wanted him out of the house.

She wanted him out of the house. He did at first, for a couple days, and then he came back and he said, listen, you know, I understand if. If, you know, you don't even want to sleep in the same bed with me for tonight, but I want to work towards that. This is our home together. We're going to fight for our marriage together. We're going to work through it together, and we're going to go to counseling. We're going to do the things that we know we need to be doing to fight for each other. And it may be awkward at first, but I love you too much to let this, you know, crumble. And let me tell you, in a month's time, which is faster than normal, okay? But I saw, like, a complete transformation in this couple, and they're still working at it. I mean, it's not like everything, you know, is completely healed yet, but just a drastic change in that home. And it's so cool to see. And it's just, you know, every time I talk to them, like, it just brings me such joy, like, my heart grows, and I'm just like, oh, my gosh, thank you, Lord. Like, that is an answered prayer. And so there's such power in that and standing up for your marriage. But, you know, I want you to know this. Like, so we've been kind of, you know, dancing around this whole question. How do you know when it's over? The truth is, is there's not a specific point or specific time that it's over. It's different for every couple in every situation. You know, we don't have the power to say when that's over. You know, I'm so glad we don't, because it's only between God and that couple.

And I would say, I would challenge you. I think some of us, and this is really motivated by pride. We have these thresholds where it's like, oh, if he ever cheats, it's over.

Right?

And I understand wanting to safeguard your marriage from infidelity. I understand wanting. And we should. My gosh, we should. Because that does do so much irreparable damage. But at the same time, it's saying that God can do a miracle up until this point, but past this point, he can't. There's a story in the Bible of a prophet named Hosea, and God commanded him to marry this woman who had been a prostitute. Her name was Gomer. Very unfortunate name. We never named our daughters Gomer, I guess, but she went back after they were married. Went back to her old life of prostitution. So you think that's all she knew? If there was ever, ever a time to just say, this marriage is over, this marriage is over, then that guy would have the right to say, this marriage is over. I gave her grace. I gave her an opportunity. She's cheated on me repeatedly in the worst kinds of ways. She's brought shame to our family. And God said, no, I want you to pursue your wife. I want you to rescue her from the slums where she's working the streets. I want you to fight for your marriage. I want you to bring her home. It's actually like a beautiful story of redemption because God said, this is a picture of what I've done for you, that you, as my children, have cheated on me over and over again with. You know, with. With these. These things. You've worshiped instead of me by prioritizing other things ahead of me. And that's an act of spiritual infidelity. And yet, in my love, I've pursued you as the husband, which the Bible says, Jesus Christ is. Is the bridegroom. We're the bride. He's our. It's this beautiful picture of marriage and him being this perfect spouse, pursuing us even when we're at our worst. And so I say all that to say that with God. When you invite him in your own strength, you might think, well, there's no way I could forgive. There's no way I could move forward. And in your own strength, you can't. But the Bible says we can do all things through Christ, who gives us strength. If you're allowing him to be the one to work with you and through you and to carry you and to bring grace to that broken situation, he can bring a miracle. Even if there has been infidelity, even if there has been addiction, even if.

There'S been divorce, even if there's been.

Divorce, he can do a miracle. And so that's the hope we want you to have. We want you to not beat yourself up if you've done all you can and your spouse walks away because they've got the free will to make that decision, and you can move forward in peace. But we also want you to have the strength and the resolve to say, I want to keep fighting as long as there is any ounce of hope left. Because I've seen my God raise dead things back to life. And he can do that with marriages, too.

That's so true. And for those of you who are listening, and maybe your spouse has filed for divorce, like maybe the Papers have been signed and you are divorced. You know, we get a lot of messages from people who are still praying for their spouse, still hoping that things turn around, even though, you know, they're technically divorced. And they're like, what do I do now? Where do I go for help? And I want to recommend a ministry that meets all over the United States and I believe maybe even internationally, and it's called Divorce Care. You can also kind of Google Online Christian divorce support groups. There's a lot of. You know, most churches have even a small group that meets where there's other people who've been through what you've been through, and you can talk through this and have people to kind of lean on, because I think it's one of those things where it's such a. It's years usually leading up to it, and your heart is so hurt, and you need people that you can talk, you know, openly about it with, and you can also learn next steps and really support each other through it. And so I just want to recommend that for people who are walking through that right now and know that you're not alone.

Man, that is so good. Yeah. God's. God's plan for healing always involves community. In the isolation, especially of divorce, it can feel so isolating. But within a healthy community, you can find such healing moving forward. So that's a. That is a great word. All right, well, it's time for our Q and A. Every episode, we end with a question. Thank you. For those of you who write in questions to us at, on Instagram, on Facebook, wherever you find us, you can find Dave and Ashley Willis. That's us, online, on social media. These questions we answer on the podcast are the ones that come directly to nakedmarriagepodcast.com and we get some great ones. Sweetie, why don't you read this week's question?

All right. It says, so we have been having struggles for years. It says we have a blended family, which is tough. We have one little boy together who is ours, and my other two boys are from a previous marriage. We argue all the time. We used to do daily devotions, and now he's run away from that. I read my Bible daily, and I know I can't change him. That's God's work. But what can I do to help out with the situation? I want to do counseling, but when I ask him, he rolls his eyes. I'm confused. And we kind of touched on this earlier. But, sweetie, what would you tell someone in this dynamic? It's such a rough situation to be in.

Yes. Yeah. It is a really, really rough situation. And just the blended family dynamic. And so many of our listeners are in this blended family. When it's, oh, absolutely, Kids, yours, mine, and ours, it's a second marriage or more, it creates an extra level of complexity and grace that's necessary. Our friend Ron Deal has a new Facebook page called Smart Step Families where he's really posting some practical and encouraging resources specifically for those in this dynamic. But there are certain principles that hold true, whether it is a struggle in a first marriage or a struggle in a blended family. And some of those principles, I would say encouragement is powerful. And right now to this wife, you know, clearly you want things to work. You're doing what you can. You're feeling drained, you're feeling unloved. And when we're feeling drained and exhausted and unloved, it's hard for us to find the motivation or the strength to even care about our spouse's needs, because we feel like, well, you're not doing your part. Why should I feel like? Why should I do more than I'm doing? But if you will pray and find the strength to love and serve your spouse through this time, to continue to communicate what you need from him, what you desire from him. But if he feels like he's only getting correction and he's only getting places that he's failing, so to speak, some of this might just feel like, you know, he's kind of thrown up his hands in surrender, like, well, I can't do anything right. What's the point? I don't know him. I don't know this full situation. So I don't know where his mindset is. But if you will encourage him, if you'll find things to praise, if you'll find things to celebrate, if you'll find opportunities to speak life into him, while at the same time, again, you shouldn't apologize for wanting to tell him what you need as well. But I would say the dynamic in this marriage has probably been one where it's more criticism than encouragement. And so I would say do your part to try to turn that tone back to encouragement. And in time, his might, his heart might follow as well, you know?

Absolutely. And I would say, too, there's like, encouragement is the word. But I would say, too, when it comes to faith. I know. I could tell she's really concerned that he doesn't seem to be that interested in church and reading his Bible anymore. And I would say instead of kind of, I think we tend to be like well, you never take the kids to church anymore. You don't go to church anymore. It's easy to get that frustrated and say those things in that kind of situation. Instead, I think the best way to kind of turn people back to God is just to remind them what God is doing in your lives. You know, point out those things that you see God is doing in your own life, in your children's life, and something you both have prayed for. Remind him of those things kind of very nonchalantly in normal conversation where it's not like this awkward, obvious, like, push towards God. So I just think that that's a way that it will remind him. You know, I do have a God who loves me. I do have a God that I want to know more. And I think that it can kind of grow from there. But again, I think that the key word here is encouragement.

That's good stuff. That is good stuff. And as you continue to make room for God to move, we believe and we pray along with you that God is going to move in your marriage. And we hope that this podcast and the other resources that we have@marriagetoday.com are an encouragement to you on the journey. Guys, thank you so much for listening. Thank you for subscribing and sharing during this podcast. Thank you for sending in messages. Thank you for your encouragement to us. It really does mean a lot.

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