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Sun by product, January to December 2024. Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis. And on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And you guys, we are finishing up our series about toxic behaviors to avoid in marriage. It's a really good one. Make sure also you stay until the very end because there's an awesome question at the very end as well. But before we dive in, Dave is going to read a review that you guys left today. And thank you guys so much for leaving reviews. on Amazon podcast. That is the best way to let people know about the Naked Marriage podcast.

Yeah, and we really do appreciate it so much, and it encourages us, in addition to helping others discover it, it just makes us smile.

It does.

So this one says, Love this podcast, five stars from Nerdy Scholar. We are Newlyweds and love the raw, engaging podcast and how it sparks conversations between us. Thank you for your ministry. And guys, we love hearing from Newlyweds and people who are even maybe engaged and not even married yet who have discovered this podcast. and are starting out strong by saying, let's build a strong foundation for our marriage. Way to go. That's right. Whether you've been married for months or you're planning to be married or you've been married for 50 years, knowing that this podcast is helping you on your journey, it just means the world to us.

It does.

It really, really does. And we have got a great episode today. You know, we're gonna finish out this mini series we've been doing over the last few weeks of talking about toxic behaviors in marriage and how to avoid them. And I think it's been helpful, it's been meaningful to us, and thank you guys for the positive feedback that you've shared, because we're just trying to like bring stuff to light. You know, like right now, I'm wearing a vest in this recording. It's almost getting too warm for vests, so I gotta get rid of this. The only reason I wear a vest is to hide love handles, right? It's like it's all just to mask it instead of dealing with it. And I think sometimes in marriage, we mask things, instead of dealing with them.

We do.

And so, oh, this whole point is just saying, just like, I gotta take this vest off soon, 'cause it's almost summer. It's time to kind of take off whatever vest we're using to mask unhealthy behaviors and habits in our homes and really deal with them so that we.

Can, you know, we can just get healthier all the way around.

So true, sweetie. Well, with that, let's dive in. I'm excited about this episode. I really am excited about all of them. I truly am. Everyone, every episode, it's special in its own way. But today is extra special because we're wrapping up a mini series we've been doing the last few weeks on toxic behaviors to avoid in marriage. And we will have covered six total over three weeks. We've been kind of caught doing two a week. Last week was about abusive behaviors, both physically and verbally abusive behaviors in marriage and how to identify it. and avoid those and get healing from those. And today we're wrapping up with talking about two things. Number one, keeping secrets from your spouse. And number two, ignoring your spouse. And these two things go hand in hand. Each week we're kind of putting two toxic behaviors together that sort of fit hand in hand. Because when you're keeping secrets from your spouse, you're also likely to be ignoring your spouse because you're confiding in other people or you're ignoring your spouse because you are you know, you're not wanting to share certain things with them. So in and of themselves, these two behaviors are both wrong and hurtful, but they often go hand in hand. When you're ignoring your spouse, you're usually keeping secrets. And when you're keeping secrets, you're usually ignoring.

And both those things are just toxic to a healthy marriage. They really are. And you guys, I mean, secrets, like we always say, the only time where it's really understandable or appropriate to keep a secret from your spouse is if you're planning a surprise party. I mean, honestly, because other than that, there's just no good reason to, you know, there, and it really is toxic because it can, some of these secrets can kind of take a foothold, in your life in a very negative way that really subtly affects your marriage until maybe it affects it in a big way. Cause it's little by little, you know, and I know we like this term, you know, in our culture, like, oh, it's just a little white lie, or it's just a little secret because essentially, you know, when you're keeping secrets, it's a form of lying. I mean, that's what you're doing because you're not telling the whole truth. You're keeping something from them. And in marriage, we're supposed to be all in about everything. We see the good, the bad, and the ugly. We got to tell the truth and all the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, right? But we do that in love. We tell the truth in love. And I think sometimes we convince ourselves that we don't need to spill it all because that would hurt our spouse. But what we don't realize is the longer we keep those things inside of us, the longer we keep those secrets, which always come to light, mind you, right? Everything always comes to light.

The Bible says, what is done in secret will be shouted from the rooftop.

And it is.

It all comes out eventually.

And when that happens though, the fact that you kept that secret from them for so long, it just hurts them even more. Like the longer you keep it, the more it hurts them. And then there's even more trust that's been broken because keeping secrets is a form of lying, and so it leads to, a breach of it's a breach of trust. And so when your spouse finds out that you've been keeping secrets and they think, okay, well, what else are you keeping from me? Yeah. What else are you lying about? And so, and the way we keep secrets, just like Dave said, these toxic behaviors go hand in hand is we, in essence, ignore our spouse or ignored, you know, we ignore the fact that they need to hear the truth. We just kind of dance around it. And, and it's, it's just a really toxic thing that a lot of couples find themselves in. And I think sometimes We can sense maybe that our spouse is keeping something from us, but we're scared to find out what it is so we don't push them on it. But that doesn't do us any favors either.

No, no, living with like this just kind of uncomfortable secret that, well, maybe it's a comfortable secret is maybe a better way to say it. It's a comfortable secret. Like, you know, something's going on probably, but I'd rather just not know because I don't want to rock the boat. And so I'm going to be like an ostrich that just puts my head in the sand and pretend like it's not there. Because as long as he's coming home to me at night or she's coming home to me at night and things seem like okay with our relationship, then if there are certain things going on that I don't know about, then that's okay. But guys, it's not okay. That's not marriage. God designed marriage to be totally open, honest and transparent. That's why we call this the Naked Marriage podcast. That's why our first big book together was called the Naked Marriage. That core message of being naked, not just physically, but in every sense, nakedness is a picture of having nothing to hide, no secrets, and that's the kind of intimacy and vulnerability that marriage, it requires it. It requires it. It's a prerequisite. It's what marriage is, really. If we're not having that, then we're, we're not having marriage. So, you know, we're just, we have a roommate that we, we keep things from.

Yeah.

So we've got to be willing to share, share everything. And if you sense that something is off in your marriage, then talk about it. Just say, like, I feel like, I feel like there's There's something that's off and maybe something that's on your mind that you're not telling me. And maybe it's not some big dark secret. Maybe it's like they're dealing with pressure at work or something in their mind and they're not telling you because they're trying to protect you from it. But what they need to know is that's not protecting you. That isolation is causing a wedge between the two of you when really you could be there to support each other through that pressure. So engage with each other about everything that's on your mind. If you're stressed about something, talk about it. If you're worried about something, talk about it. If you're struggling with something, talk about it. And make your marriage a safe place to share all of it.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's kind of a rhythm that we've always embraced is just checking in, like, are you okay? My kids tease me, our four boys, especially our older ones, because I do.

It with our boys too.

Gosh, Mom, why do you always ask me? Why do you always ask me? My gosh, I was fine five minutes ago. But my thing is I'm a very intuitive person. Like I really, I just always, even as a kid, like I always kind of, you know, I just had a sense that like somebody was heavy or, you know, like there was something going on. Like there's something there. And there's been times where I've even approached friends and I've been like, listen, I just want you to know I'm praying for you. I don't, I feel like something's going on. Not even between us, like I, you know, not even between that friend, but I'll just say like I sense a heaviness on you and they will burst into tears and be like, how did you know? And then we'll pray. so, I mean, it's, I think a lot of us can relate to that. I think a lot of us out there are intuitive. And so that's maybe why I ask, are you okay? And, and a lot of it, too, is I want to make sure that, that Dave's okay with me and that my boys are, are okay. I'm always okay with you. You know what I'm saying? Because we can find ourselves where maybe we have done something, whether we did it intentionally or not, and, and, you know, it hurts somebody's feelings. I want to make sure that I know that so that I can do better and I can apologize and things like that. But when it comes to, you know, sensing secrets, I am, I'm like Spidey sense, right?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Like, like, I don't, I may not know what it is, but I can sense like something, you know, with, with Dave, with our boys, with close friends and, and I do, I mean, I, I don't like, I just don't like sitting on that. Like I, it stirs inside of me and toils like I have a physical feeling when I feel like something's off. and I will address, I'll address it with you. And we've walked through that. I mean, we've walked through secrets before together.

Yeah.

Where, you know, we shared extensively. We won't even go into it. But you guys know our, if you've been listening for any length of time, you know, Dave had a history with pornography, and it was, I mean, it was a habit slash addiction, however you would classify it. Yeah. Yeah. For years. And it was a secret, a big.

Secret that he thought I couldn't handle. And I think that's why he kept it from me. I did. And I was wrong. I mean, it was so wrong on so many the porn itself was wrong and then keeping it a secret was wrong. So like one wrong always compounds on another. Yeah, oh yeah. And you know, that's how sin works. It's like, you know, we use one sin to justify another and then a sin to make that sin seem less painful. And you've gotta bring it out into the light. You know, what's done in the darkness will come out into the light. We've gotta, and once something's out into the light, it doesn't have nearly as much power over you as it did in the darkness.

Right.

So bring it out, you know, bring out that struggle, bring out that confession. there's healing and freedom in it. Yeah, it hurts at first, you know, because living with a tumor inside of you is less painful in the moment than having someone cut you open to pull the tumor out. Right. But getting that tumor out is what's going to ultimately save your life and let you be actually healthy. But some people will carry the tumor of, of dishonesty or secrecy inside them, and they're so used to carrying it around that they're like, no, don't cut this open. That would really hurt. I just want to live with this. But it's the very thing that's going to weigh him down and eventually kill the relationship potentially. You have to be willing to cut it out and deal with the mess and then know that that's the first step toward healing and now you're free. And so bring it out, whatever it is that you're holding back, bring it out because the level of your honesty will determine the level of your intimacy and secrecy will destroy and unravel intimacy in marriage like nothing else.

It will, and I want to say this and then we'll move on to ignoring your spouse. When you are keeping a secret from your spouse, even if you've convinced yourself, like, well, it's just my cross to bear. I need to keep this because I'm protecting them ultimately. Right. Yeah. First of all, that's a lie from the enemy. But secondly, the more you keep that secret, you kind of are, in essence, making a fool out of your spouse, too. And we've had friends who've gone through infidelity. And I remember one couple in particular, the wife really looking, you know, me in the face and just, she had, like, such hurt and anger in her eyes. because she was saying, you know, they had moved away from the place where this infidelity had happened because they needed kind of a fresh start. And by God's miracle, they're still together today and have done a lot of work over the years. But one thing she said kind of in the midst of this healing process, it was pretty early on after the news and they were in like crisis mode, you know, just trying to pick up the pieces. I remember her looking at me and just saying like, I never want to go back there because I feel like such a fool. And I think that we don't realize that's what we're doing to our spouse. And this isn't just infidelity. It could be anything. It could be finances. It could be something happening with the kids that you're like, oh, don't tell mom. Don't tell dad. Like, you know, I mean, it could be anything, but you are, in essence, you're not only it's wrong to keep it from your spouse and you're hurting them ultimately, but you're also, you are embarrassing them because you didn't even trust them enough with that information and you went behind their back. I mean, it's embarrassing. It makes them out to be a fool, so to speak. Even though they're not, but it makes them feel that way. And I just remember, and do you remember that conversation? I do. It really dawned on me because I was like, you know, she's right. Like it's, that's a whole other layer of hurt because now she feels embarrassed. Like, why didn't I know? And, and so it's just, there's so many, we don't realize when we're keeping a secret all the damage, the layers of damage that is happening. And so that's why we're talking about it today because it is one of the biggest toxic behaviors Again, we don't have these in any particular order throughout this mini series. They're all damaging. But I will say though that this one, you know, let today, if you have been keeping a secret from your spouse, stop doing it today. Like don't let there be any further damage because the longer you keep it, the more damage there's going to be. And so have that conversation, even though it's hard, even though it might be awkward and it will be hurtful, they're going to be hurt. They're going to be mad and they have every right to be. But the fact that you're telling them now is showing that you trust them with the information, but also that you are giving them the ability to know what's actually going on. And then hopefully, you know, they can quickly get to a point of forgiveness with you and then you can start rebuilding that trust, which will take time. You know, Jimmy Evans says that trust is lost in, in drops, but it's no, it's lots and lost in buckets, but it's built in drops. Yeah. And I love that image because it's so true. I mean, like one decision, of keeping a secret, whatever it is, you know, it's like you've poured out this bucket of trust that you've been building over the years, and then all of a sudden it's gone. So then you're going to have to drop by drop, start building that trust back up by showing you're not keeping secrets, by showing that you are completely honest with them and that you are a trustworthy person and that you are not a secretive person. But it's so important to do that.

All right, let's switch gears to ignoring your spouse. This one makes me so sad. It is so sad. Like, I mean, I just feel sad thinking about it. 'Cause if your spouse is ever feeling ignored by you, I mean, obviously we know this with like children. If your children feel ignored by you, then I mean just how heartbreaking is that? And a lot of folks have like lifelong pain because they felt ignored as a child. So when we know that like ignoring someone that's depending on you is heartbreaking and in marriage that should just never be the case. Like your spouse, when you pledged your vows to your spouse, more than anything else really, you were pledging you're presence, like your presence, like I'm here, I'm going to be here, I'm gonna be with you. You can count on me through every season, through the good and the bad, the highs and the lows for richer for poorer. Like I'm gonna be there and I'm gonna be available to you and you're gonna be my top priority no matter what because that's what marriage is. Like we've gotta make our spouse our priority. And if your spouse feels like they're so down your priority list, like they're behind your career and your hobbies and your friends and your golf game and you know, whatever else, then guys, that's just hard. That is an act of infidelity. It's almost like your spouse is cheating on you with all those other things, not in a sexual way necessarily, but in a priority way. And so we've got to make our spouse our priority and make sure they know the place of priority they have at all times in our life.

Right. I would say what are some signs that, I mean, secrets we understand, we're like, oh, you're not telling your spouse the whole truth, right? We can understand that. But I think we sometimes don't fully understand what ignoring looks like. And I would say where when you're in the house together, you don't greet each other, right? Or maybe it's one-sided, like your spouse is ignoring you. When they walk in a room, they act like you might as well not even be there, right? They don't greet your presence. When they leave for work, they don't say bye. You know, there's just this constant kind of roommate mentality where there's not the greeting and the engagement. Like it's a lacking of engagement. I would say another form of ignoring is not taking into account your feelings for something. So they go and they do decisions. They make decisions without ever consulting you. They don't ever bring you in. They don't care what you have to say. That's, that's a means of ignoring. I mean, like you're, you're ignoring what your spouse cares about, how they would feel, because part of marriage is that you're constantly, you know, you're constantly making sure you're on the same page. And when you're ignoring each other, It's, you don't, you don't do that. Like you're just not, you're like, I'm gonna do what I wanna do. Maybe you've even said this, like you're ignoring your spouse. If you've ever said, I'm a grown man, I'm a grown woman, I'm gonna do what I wanna do. Yeah. You're ignoring your spouse. Okay. You are, yeah. And that's in a position where that's not gonna build your marriage up. I mean, yes, you're both grown people, but why be married if you're just gonna go ahead and still do what you wanna do? That's, that's just not marriage. I mean, you chose to marry this person. You chose to share your life with this person. You are going to have to work through things together. You're going to have to consult each other. I mean, it's just as real as that. And so if you've ever found yourself, and I'm not trying to come down super hard on this, but I just want to say I have heard, like we've been in kind of some pastoral counseling sessions with people where they say this. And I've seen the light bulb go off like, well, man, that probably was a jerk thing to say. Or like, you know what I'm saying? because it is, it's like that's not, that's so concerned only for what you want and you're just completely ignoring your spouse's needs, wants and concerns. And so that's a red, that's, that's like a huge red flag where you're like, man, I'm not going about this the right way. And so what do you do? You go to your spouse and you apologize and you say, you know what? I've gotten all puffed up and prideful. I have been shutting you out and I am so sorry. You deserve better. I've been ignoring you in a lot of different ways. and I'm going to stop doing that. And I am so sorry. How can I serve you today? Like, how can I serve you as your husband, as your wife today?

So good, guys. That one question could. Could completely change the trajectory of your marriage. How can I serve you? What can I do to let you know how I see you that I see you and how I'm so committed to you and be. And just being thoughtful, guys, I think, you know, the word romance intimidates us a lot of times because we don't know. I don't know how to be romantic. Replace that word romance with thoughtfulness because really that's all romance is, is just being thoughtful, letting your spouse know, you're on my mind. I care about you and you're a priority to me. And make sure your choices and everything you're doing with your time lines up with that truth that your spouse knows they're a priority. They matter to you. You love them and they're always on your mind. Great stuff, guys. We're going to transition to our Q&A time. Thank you for those who write questions to us@NakedMarriagePodcast.com or On social media, we're @davenashleywillis on Instagram. You can just search our names on Facebook, we'll pop up there too. Question today from a lady who says, I'm having a hard time with my husband. He was raised in a self-focused home and does not think of me or our household before himself. He is self-absorbed in his speech and actions. He looks to me to make all the decisions and care for the household. I want a divorce because I cannot be responsible for myself and another person who is not positively contributing to my life. What should I do? Yeah, this is, It's hard.

It goes right along with what we talked about.

Yeah, gosh, it really does.

It really does.

Rewinding the clock, you know, I'd say it's just a reminder to us as parents to not, is we're raising our kids to try to create atmosphere in the home where we're not creating self-absorbed, self-focused people. We want confident people, but selfless people who are gonna grow up to be a good spouse, themselves. And, and, and that we strive to be that in our own lives, obviously, however we were raised, because our parents can give us a head start or a, or a step back in how we were raised. But all, ultimately, all of us decide for ourselves, what kind of life am I going to live? What kind of spouse am I going to be? We've got to choose to make the right choices. It sounds like this husband is maybe using as an excuse kind of what he, he picked up as a kid, but This is on him now if he's choosing to be self absorbed and selfish and that's no way to be married and it's, it's causing a lot of pain. So sweetie, what are some of your thoughts?

Well, I think this is certainly, I mean, she said she wants a divorce because she feels like she can't be responsible for herself and another person who's not positively contributing to her life, which is a really, I mean, that's a very definitive and I can just sense the hurt.

Like I sense that she's exhausted.

And she, this is not like a, a quick decision. This is something where she's felt like this has gone on probably their whole marriage. Um, she feels very much like she's out of options here. Like she doesn't know what to do to change.

She's been abandoned, even though it's still physically there. It's not abandonment like he disappeared, but she's been abandoned by a guy who's still living in her house.

Like he's, he's abandoned his duties as a husband. Exactly. And so I would say this is very much a crisis situation. I would encourage you both. Before making any kind of decision, please go to a crisis marriage retreat. I think that that is essential. And what I mean by crisis marriage retreat is it's beyond a marriage conference. Marriage conferences are awesome. Retreats are awesome. But a crisis marriage retreat, and you want to have that in the title, a Christian crisis marriage retreat. Make sure you put Christian as well. Is designed for people in a dynamic like this where they're on the brink of divorce. They're not on the same page. Um, there's been a long time you know, there's been a long history of, of mistreating, whether on, you know, whether it's one-sided or both partners and, and they just don't know what to do. And what you do at a crisis marriage retreat is you usually have two separate counselors or self that meet with you individually, and then you also have a counselor that meets with you together. And it usually takes around four or five days, and it's intensive. Like, it's also called a marriage intensive. You could look up Christian marriage. intensive as well, and they're all over the country. But I think that's essential because there's been so much damage here. It's not just gonna be, and it's crisis too. It's something where she's at that tipping point. And so, you know, I encourage you to have ongoing Christian counseling, which I don't think is happening yet. And so that's definitely a next step. But I think you need that jump start. Yeah. Of having the crisis marriage Retreater, Christian marriage intensive. And so one we recommend, I don't know where this couple is located, but in Rome, Georgia, there is something called WindShape, the WindShape Retreat Center. And you can look that up and they actually have a crisis marriage retreat that is excellent. We know the people, they are amazing. But again, you know, depending on where you are in the country, I would just look up Christian Crisis Marriage Retreat, Christian Crisis Marriage Intensive, and sign up and tell your husband, say, Listen, I'm fighting for us. I am beyond angry. I feel like we're on the brink of divorce, but we need this.

Yeah. Like we've got to do this. I'm going to commit to this. You're going to commit to this. And that's the one place I would challenge this wife.

Yeah.

Is like, because if she's just wanting a justification, like, oh, no, just go ahead and leave him.

I don't think that's what she's looking for.

I don't think that is either. I don't think so. I think she really wants healing. But anybody in her position, I would say, even if you feel like I'm justified to walk away right now, Right. But to challenge that spouse to say, like, I want to fight, and I'm going to challenge you to just say, let's fight for this. But make the other spouse, make your husband know the sense of urgency, like they actually said, he needs to know, like this, if we don't do this, by default, you're essentially choosing to divorce, because what's not sustainable is what we're currently doing. And I would rather be divorced than live like this. But I believe-- I feel like I'm alone already. I feel like I'm already alone. So the rest is just paperwork. But what I want is for our marriage to thrive and for us to be completely unified. And I believe we can get there, get back there, or maybe get there for the very first time, but we can't do it alone. And so I've signed us up for this, and we've got to go. We've got to go. And so take that action. And by taking that action, I believe God will meet you where you are as you step out in faith. as you both become willing to do the work and it will make all the difference. If you want to talk to somebody right away, we've got a team here at XO, our wonderful mediators. They could set up a call by phone or Skype with you or if you live in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, you could come into the office and meet in person. Go to xomarriage.com/help and you can find all the information there. They're a wonderful team and they'd be thrilled to help you as well. Guys, thank you so much. for listening today. Thanks for being part of this online community. We love and appreciate you all so much. Do us a favor and share this podcast with somebody. I mean, so many folks discover this podcast because a friend or a relative said, Hey, this podcast has been meaningful to me. I think it would help you. And then when you share it, you could be part of somebody else's story. You could be part of saving or helping someone else's marriage and partnering with us in this ministry. of spreading hope to homes all around the world. We love you guys. See you next time.

Bye guys.