Let's Talk About Sex

Welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis. Here we are undressing the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. We are so excited to join you. Sweetie, are you as excited as I am about this thing?

I am so excited. It's our very first episode, and we cannot wait to dive in. And today, we are going to talk about sex.

That's right. You heard it right. We're talking about sex. So, mom, if you're listening, I know you love to listen to all of our stuff. This one's about sex, so you might want to skip this one because I'm going to be blushing the whole time thinking about you listening to this. But we're going to have a lot of fun.

We are. You know, we really want to be open and honest on this podcast. And we thought, you know, what better way to just dive right in than to talk about sex, because it really is an important part of marriage.

I know. I can't wait. Let's dive in. I'm so excited about today's topic. I think it's my favorite topic. We're talking about sex. Sweetie, are you excited about this?

I am. I am. I think it's really important to talk about it, and I think so many times, you know, we feel awkward talking about it, but we want this podcast to be a safe place where we can talk openly and honestly about things like sex. And so I'm really excited to talk about it today.

I don't feel the least bit awkward. I'm excited. I'm excited to talk about this. And, yeah, it's fun. Now, we've had some awkward conversations about sex because we talk to a lot of people. We get messages online. We talk to folks at live events, the XO conferences, the events we do here at Marriage today. And people have very. Thankfully, they've shared openly what they struggle with or what their questions are. And from the stage and in writing, we've shared openly about a lot of the different kind of struggles we've faced over the years, whether it's hormonal imbalance or whether it's anxiety and depression, how that's affected sex, whether it's my past problem with porn and how that's affected sex. And in future podcast episodes, we'll talk in depth about a lot of these issues.

Yes.

But just know that your sex life, it really does. It impacts every other part of your marriage, and every other part of your marriage impacts your sex life.

Absolutely.

And so with the time that we have today, we're going to kind of talk about how to, how to communicate to one another about your sex life. So often there are these misconceptions and frustrations in marriage, and a lot of it is because the husband and wife don't know how to have an honest, vulnerable conversation about, about what they want in the bedroom, what they like in the bedroom, what their insecurities are in the bedroom. And if you will just put it out all on the table and talk about it, you'll be amazed at, I don't know how much better it can get.

It's so true. And we really want to focus in on the fact that the best sex lives are between two best friends. Right. And that if you don't really have a friendship at the base of your marriage, it's going to really negatively affect your sex life. And so the more we can be friends with one another, the better our sex life is going to get. And so you're probably listening and you're thinking, well, you know, how do I become friends with my spouse? I kind of feel like, you know, when we were first dating, we were kind of friends, but really, you know, there's never really been a great friendship there. You know, we kind of just do life together. There are ways that you can cultivate a deeper friendship, right, sweetie?

Absolutely. I mean, like any relationship, friendship takes, it takes time. It takes time to build, it takes time to keep investing in. And like you said so often couples start off as best friends, they marry each other and they feel like I'm marrying my best friend. But then over time, they start drifting apart. And marriage takes constant intentionality, not just for the sex life, but for the friendship, which is really at the foundation of it. And if we're not consistently investing in time together, talking together, for Ashley and me, that looks like our best days are days that we go on a walk and, and we try to go on a walk every day because we have some of our best conversations when we're just side by side, sometimes holding hands until one of our hands gets sweaty and then we'll stop. But we're talking, we're connecting. And if it doesn't happen on a walk, it's the end of the day on the couch, giving a foot rub, watching a little Netflix, but just making sure that there's that uninterrupted time together and a lot of non sexual touch. I think if you want to improve the sexual aspect of your relationship, it always starts outside the bedroom with are you being affectionate to each other even when it's not directly leading to the Bedroom. Are you holding hands? Are you cuddling? Are you connecting verbally? All of these things matter, both for your friendship with your spouse and then ultimately for the sexual intimacy in your marriage.

Absolutely. And we have to realize too that, you know, we just, we need to be able to have these open conversations regularly. And I think, you know, like Dave was saying, for us it's at the end of the day and for you, and you know, it might look a little bit different, it might be you, you know, have lunch together and that's where you connect. So it doesn't have to be in the same way that we do it, but it's having open conversations all the time and like Dave said, having that non sexual touch. And guys, I just wanna give you a tip. You know, a lot of times guys get, you know, they're, they're more visually driven and, and many times too, the guys may have the higher sex drive. Not always. And we, and we know that, but you know, men and women are very different in how, in how we perceive sex and really what leads us to be, you know, in the mood for sex. And for women, we feel more inclined to have sex with our husbands when we feel close to him on an intellectual level and on an emotional level. And that happens through communication. And so guys, if you feel like your wife seems to never, you know, be in the mood for sex, I would say when's the last time you guys had a really heart to heart conversation? When's the last time that you did give her non sexual touch and you just listened to her and you really shared your heart with her? Because that is really how it, intimacy starts for a woman. Especially not to say that men don't get a lot out of these conversations too. But for men, you know, it can be more of a visual stimulus. For women, it's more of an emotional stimulus that leads us to the bedroom.

Yeah. And guys, I hope you were paying attention to that. That is absolutely huge. I think one of the biggest barriers to husbands and wives experiencing true intimacy is that the husband looks at the wife and he thinks that she is thinking exactly how he's thinking. And the wife looks at the husband and, and makes the same mistake. But God wired us up so beautifully, intimately complex and different as men and women. I mean, we're equally intelligent, we're equally gifted, we're equally empowered, all of that. But our brains work in different ways. I mean, just the way we think about sex, the way we respond to intimacy and to touch. Brain scans have just shown like a complete difference in the process, that leads a man or that leads a woman to being in the mood, so to speak. So you have to relate to your spouse the way that they are, not the way that you are. And God designed it this way so that we would serve one another. You're not clones of each other for a reason. It's an opportunity to serve your spouse's needs to get to know them and then even beyond the basic man woman differences, to get to know them personally, get to know their love language, which is a great book, the five Love Languages, to get to know what really they receive his love. Because for you, it might be one thing. It might be when she, you know, when she says nice things to me or about me, I feel loved for her. Your words might matter, but not nearly as much as, you know, an act of service for her or quality time together. So get to know what she wants, get to know what he wants, not just in the bedroom, but in all areas of the relationship. And that's going to bring you closer together and create that bond of intimacy.

It's so true. And, you know, how do we get to know those things? We do it through conversation and not usually in the moment. And I've made this mistake so, like early on in our marriage and really in those first, I guess, I don't know, in the first five years of marriage, when we had our first child, when we were about three and a half years married, and I remember being exhausted, you know, I'm nursing a baby, I'm trying to juggle, you know, home life, work life, all that kind of stuff. And so it was very stressful. But one thing I found out, and there's actually scientific research behind this, is that men and women handle stress differently. For a man, when they're stressed out, they're like, man, I really could use, you know, sex right now with my spouse.

It's the ultimate stress for women, I mean.

Exactly. But for a woman, it's like that is the last thing on my mind. Literally not even on the list. Okay. Because I'm so stressed out right now and I have all these things, you know, that I feel like are on me. And if we, you know, as women, if we don't feel like, if we feel like there's so many things that we need to get, you know, checked off the list and we feel inundated with that. We're not even romantically inclined. And so I just remember in those early child rearing years that, you know, Dave would be like, hey, baby, you ready? And I'D be like, there are children milling about. I can't.

I've got a hundred things on me and I don't want you to be another one of them.

It's so true. And even till this day, I am just very verbal about it. And he'll be like, hey, you know, And I'm like, well, sweetie, I'll be ready later, but I have to have the children asleep. Like, for sure asleep. I have to make sure I fold my laundry. Maybe you can help me. And I can probably get there. But it's like, it just takes different things kind of in place for me to be there. And it's not really. I always encourage couples, try not to deny one another. If one spouse is really, like, I really want that today, try not to deny your spouse, but also create a situation where you're less stressed, where you're more romantically inclined so you both can enjoy it. And that way, you know, sex is becoming a priority.

Yeah, make it a priority. But, guys, just talking man to man here for a second, making it a priority. Making it a priority really means serving your wife and all these other areas. I'm assuming this is in the context of believing that you, as the husband, might be the one who wants more frequency when it comes to sex. It's not always that way. We hear from a lot of women and say, I'm the one who wants it more and my husband has a lower drive. But I'm talking to you guys that feel like you want more frequency. I think the best way you can connect is to do those things. Ashley said, and look at foreplay as an all day event. Not just which I've made the mistake sometimes, like, hey, I'm here, I'm here, right? So foreplay is a little more than that. It starts all day. It's through communicating all day. It's through connecting all day, guys. It's through taking things off her plate. Because that stress, it isn't an aphrodisiac for her. It is a sex killer for her. Which is again, proof that God has a sense of humor. He makes a man, he become sexually stimulated by stress in a woman completely turned off by stress. And then he says, all right, now let's see how they work this out. And it's another opportunity to serve each other. But guys, how we can serve here is help take things off her plate and do some of those chores that normally she might do. But by you doing it, it's gonna help. And you should be doing more anyway. Don't be one of these guys that expects your wife to be the ones that have to put the kids to bed and do all of the household duties. I mean, do those things. And as it relates to maybe leading to the bedroom, we actually have a word for this. Yes, we do. It's called chore play. That's right.

Think about it for a minute.

Chore play. It's. When it's a real thing, chores become a beautiful form of foreplay.

They do.

I'm never more attractive to you than when you catch me folding laundry or. Which I need. I need to do more.

No, you do great.

I hate folding. But. Or when I'm doing the dishes, if I walk in. If Ashley walks in the house and I'm loading the dishwasher, like, she'll get hot and bothered. Like, right there. Like, oh, my goodness, are you putting dishes away? So there's something to it, you know, Really.

I know we kind of are making light of this, but it is a real thing. You know, as women, it's just if there's so much going on in our minds, it's really hard for us to get into the romantic mood. And we can even get angry about it. Cause we just feel stressed out. And we don't feel like, you know, it's like sex just becomes another thing on the list. But I often tell wives, I mean, this is a really dangerous place to be. We can't make sex just another thing on the list. We need to look at it as a beautiful gift, as a beautiful way to serve our husbands. And. And also is a great way to connect. And it's awesome. So, I mean, it should be this positive thing. But I think that when we have kids and when we have work and all these responsibilities going on and racing through our mind, you know, we kind of cut ourselves off from enjoying that. So I encourage wives. If that's you, if I'm describing you, I first wanna tell you you're not alone. This is a very common thing that many wives experience. But I would encourage you to really shift your mind. And it takes a conscious effort. You know, in the Bible, it talks about holding thoughts captive. And this is one of those thoughts that I think can really damage your sex life, is when you start to see it as just another thing. Or he, oh, no, he wants it again. Or, gosh, I wish it wasn't the day that we're supposed to, you know, do it or whatever. I mean, like, if you have an agreement, if you're doing it like every three days or whatever, you know, I know Wives that literally dread it, you know? And I was having a conversation once with friends of mine, and they were saying this. They were literally saying, like, it's. Today is the day. You know, it's the day that we have sex. And I was just. I literally.

And the husband's at work all day, like, yes, I know it's happening tonight.

And I was like, oh, gosh, you know, my heart went out to them. And on one hand, I was like, you know, Dave and I have gone through a lot of different things in our marriage. And there was a time when I was there, I was just stressed out all the time. But I really realized it wasn't doing our sex life any good. It wasn't helping our marriage, and it was causing Dave's stress because then he felt unwanted by me. And, you know, people act like men don't have feelings when it comes to sex, but when you're denying your husband all the time, of course he feels like you don't want him. And it does hurt his feelings. And it does, you know, kind of. It really kind of hurts your marriage.

It don't mess with a guy.

Absolutely. It hurts his confidence. And so, like, these ladies who I love dearly, who I know love their husbands, you know, acting like today's the day, it's the worst day ever. I guess I'm just gonna have to just bear with it, you know? And I just kind of challenged them, and I was like, girls, like, seriously, we gotta do better. Like, we've got to do better. We've got to find a way to get out of that mode. And first of all, we have to shift our thinking and look at sex as a gift that God created that is only supposed to be in marriage. So how awesome that as married people, we get to enjoy this amazing gift. And secondly, we need to just really try to prepare ourselves to be ready for that moment and to look forward to it. And that means, you know, sometimes it's not doing the laundry. You know, you. You don't have to have your laundry folded to have sex. Some of you. It might be blowing your mind right now. And listen, I was there once. Like, you mean, I don't. It can be on the floor in a pile. And I could maybe fold it with my husband later. And I will tell you, too, he's gonna be more motivated to fold that laundry. Probably he'll be motivated, basking in the globe, folding laundry. But, you know, we decided, as a.

Husband, I don't care what the house I would live, I would live in A cardboard box. Like, if I'm like, what? That's probably the truth. It's like, most guys, do we even need claws? We don't even need clothes, right? Have to be clean. It's like if that need. Because sex for most men is a primary or potentially the primary need. And when that need is being met consistently, it's just. It's amazing at what he will do. I mean, to try to meet your needs, like to try to meet the wife's needs, but when that needs not met in a guy. And guys, this is not justification for you to think, well, she's not meeting my need, and so I get to just be a lazy bum. No, that's never how it works. In fact, we kind of have a visual analogy we use for this. At our exotalk last year at Gateway Church with marriage Today, we talked about the love seat. And if you were there, you were one of the simulcasts. You may have seen this. We've also kind of written about this. But picture, I want you to visualize real quick that there's a love seat and then there's two single chairs off to the love seat, just like it's set up in many living rooms. And we sort of use the visual analogy that in marriage, there are a few different postures you can have. You can be together in the love seat, which means you're. You're serving each other, you're together, you're communicating, you're completely connected. Or you can both be in those single seats, which means you're just totally focused on your own needs, and you blame each other for the reason why your marriage isn't the way that you think it should be. Or there's a third posture where one of you is in that love seat, saying, hey, I'm doing everything I can to meet my spouse's need, asking them to meet me here, but they're still over in the me seat. They're being selfish, but I'm still doing all that I can. I think every marriage at different seasons potentially is in each of those three postures. And what we try to do in our marriage, what we try to encourage others to do, is come back to the middle in that love seat to say, you know what? I don't want to just go off and try to meet my needs on my own. I don't want to be selfish and not think about your needs. I want to serve you. I want to serve you even when I feel like it's not totally being reciprocated. I want to serve you and give you my best, even when you're. You're not in a position to reciprocate back. I want to not treat you how you treat me. I want to treat you how God treats me. And God gives me his best when I'm at my worst. And then he calls us to love each other in marriage that same way. And the happiest couples are ones where both spouses get that. Both spouses say, how can I serve my spouse? It's not about how I'm feeling today. It's not about what I think I need today. It's how can I serve them. And by serving them, my heart's going to be filled up in the process just because I love them so much. And if you'll take on that mindset, and again, it goes against our selfish human nature, but if you'll take it on, it'll change everything, you know?

Absolutely. And just because you're in the me seat together doesn't mean you're gonna have disagreement. You're not gonna have disagreements in the love seat. I'm sorry, in the love seat. But when you're in that love seat, you're going to handle those disagreements in a healthier way, and you're gonna talk through them. But if you're in those me seats and you're separated and you're just thinking about your own feelings and your own rights, so to speak, then you're not gonna handle it well. You're not in a unified place within your marriage. And so we really need to, you know, if we're going through kind of a tough time, really ask yourself, am I in the me seat right now? Am I only thinking about my own things going on with me? Am I only, you know, wanting to kind of push my own agenda? Or am I in the love seat with my spouse trying to get through this together? Because. And we. And we say this all the time. There's really no problem that it's his problem or her problem. In marriage, it's always our problem. And so if sex is an issue for you, if you're listening to this because you're like, I just. I love my spouse. I feel like every other aspect of our marriage is great, but sex is just kind of this unspoken issue where we both are a little dissatisfied. There's not that much passion. You know, I just want you to stay in that love seat, so to speak, together and really talk about it and talk totally openly about it. And that even means what you like and what you dislike. And, you know, sometimes that can be a little awkward. And I would encourage you not to do it in the heat of the moment of passion. That's gonna be a little detrimental. But later on, it might be good to just say, listen, you know, I want our sex life to be everything that it can be. I know it's a beautiful gift from God. And I really don't particularly like. I mean, and we're gonna get real specific, but, like, a certain position, it doesn't make me feel good or it's painful or whatever. You know, I received a message from a lady that was talking about how her husband really enjoys oral sex, and he just asked her for it. Like, he flat out asked her for it. And she said that in her past, she, you know, had a previous relationship and had some sexual experiences that were very negative and detrimental. And this. This person abused her in a way. And she said, and I always associate that abuse with oral sex. And she said, I've tried to explain this to my husband. And he said, you know, he's like, listen, I understand, but you kind of need to get over this. And, you know, I'm your husband. I'm not that guy. And I really like oral sex. And, you know, I felt this lady's heartbreak because I can tell that she wants to do that for her husband. But everything in her she said, it just literally disgusts her. And, you know, I don't think she's too often, you know, a lot of people listening to this podcast right now, we can have sexual pasts where certain things are just have a negative connotation. Maybe you were sexually abused as a child. Maybe, you know, your previous. Previous marriage. It was just very. A negative experience, you know, and we need to be able to be honest with our spouse about that. And I want to encourage spouses who hear this kind of information from their spouse. Like, their spouse shares a heartbreak with them and says, this is why I cringe when you touch me there. Like, I think we need to be that honest. And if you receive that kind of information, you know, your spouse is really, you know, sharing this with you, and it's hard. And I would recognize the hardship in that statement. But I would also, instead of saying, you know, I feel for you, get over it. We need to say, how can I help you? You know, how can I get you the help that you need instead of just thinking about our own needs. I don't fault. In that particular story I shared, I don't fault that husband for wanting oral sex. That's fine and good, and it's good that he's communicating his needs. But I also think that his wife, you know, she needs to heal. And, you know, we can't rush healing. Instead, we need to just come alongside beside them and help them find the healing that they need. And sometimes that's, you know, seeing a Christian counselor and really talking through these things, and it takes time.

It does take time. And in that time of waiting, again, coming back to the love seat and the me seat, there's a temptation to just retreat to the me seat. And what that looks like in a situation like this, potentially, let's say the husband who, again, you know, it's a normal desire, I think, that most husbands have. Absolutely. And in his mind, he's saying, look, I'm not this guy, right? Like, you know, we're redeemed and set free from our past. And, like, let's not live in a prison sentence from it. You know, let's not live in a sexless marriage, because for some, it's not just oral sex, it's sex in general that. That they're dealing with. And so it's not healthy to just say, well, I'm uncomfortable with it. So we're gonna live our lives in this sexless marriage. So the husband has a temptation in this situation, potentially, hypothetically, to say, I'm gonna retreat to the me seat and to the me seat. It's something reckless. It's something selfish. I'm gonna go watch porn. I'm gonna go watch oral sex on porn. I'm gonna masturbate to it. I'm gonna live out this fantasy, because if she's not willing to meet that need, but it's a need I have, I'm gonna go meet it on my own.

And.

And that is very unhealthy. And that's gonna put a big barrier, and ultimately, it's gonna cause even more distrust and disgust around that particular act. For your wife coming to the me seat together in that situation is a.

Husband in the love seat.

Right? I know I get tripped up on.

These all the time.

You're sitting together in the love seat. What that looks like is the husband saying, look, this is a desire that I have. I would even say a need that I have. It makes me feel connected to you. I just. I love, you know, that it's a very intimate act, and I love it, and I hate that you don't love it and in fact, that you're disgusted by it. But first and foremost, I want to help you heal more than that particular need of something. Feeling good I want to help you heal. What does that look like? How can I help you to come through this? Not just so that I can get this need met, but first and foremost, to heal your heart. Because you felt wounded, you felt abused. And I want our marriage and. And particularly our marriage bed to be the safest place on earth for you. Tell me how I can help you through this. For the wife, I think it's saying, look, this is a need you have, and I get that this is a normal and natural desire and something you want to share with me as your wife and something that you have, you know, you have a right to share. We have a right to share with each other as a husband and wife. I don't want to deny you that. At the same time, I don't want to just kind of, like, mindlessly with numbness, you know, go through this. This act that in my mind is causing me to relive this pain. So I want to get the help that I need to get, whether that's going to counseling, whatever that looks like, so that I can come through healing. And when we come together as a husband and wife in any kind of sexual intimacy, that. It is totally. It's freeing, it's safe, it's all the things that God intended. And our world has broken sex in so many ways that almost all of us carry some form of sexual baggage into our marriage. And God wants to redeem us, bring us back to that place of purity and freedom. You know, like Adam and Eve experienced at the beginning. They were naked and unashamed. He wants you to be naked and unashamed together. He wants you to truly have a naked marriage where there's nothing, nothing that is keeping you from one another. There's no barrier between you, not just around one specific sexual act, but in all parts of your marriage. And so whatever it takes to get to that place of intimacy, you've got to work toward it, you've got to fight toward it. You also have to be patient with each other, and. And you have to be willing to serve one another along the way. That's what the love seat's about. That's what love in general in marriage is all about. But if you'll commit to that, it's amazing the level of connection you can experience.

Absolutely. And that's the thing is we can't look at these issues as well. We're just never gonna have the sex life that I thought we could have. You know, we can't look at it that way. When we go through these in the meat in the love seat together. Then we can look at these as ways to grow closer together. You know, Dave and I, and we're gonna share this a lot through the podcast, kind of our own experience. But early on in our marriage, I had very extreme depression and anxiety. And this, of course, affected our sex life. And, you know, I just did not feel like myself. I was down and out all the time, and it just. You just aren't yourself. And anybody listening to this who's in the midst of this or has gone through this, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And it's very. It's just very debilitating. And you constantly feel like you're letting your spouse down because you're just not. You're not able to completely and fully be yourself. You know, through that time, Dave could have really, you know, kind of been rough on me and said, listen, you need to get over this. I'm your husband. Just snap out of it. And he never said that. Like, every time he'd say, how can I help you? How can I help you? I just want to help you feel better, you know, more than anything, I just want. I want you to feel like you again. And on days when I would feel like I'm never gonna. I'm never gonna feel normal or okay ever again, I'm just gonna feel depressed and anxious my entire life, you know, he would always say, you know, this is just something God's gonna use to make you stronger. And we're gonna get through this because we're gonna get through this together. We got through it. Getting through it in the love seat. You know, we went through that together, and we grew closer through that. And I just wanna encourage you. If you're having, you know, maybe you're having anxiety and depression, maybe there is a specific sexual act that just brings you anxiety because of a past hurt. Maybe you were sexually abused. Maybe right now you're having some hormonal imbalances, and so the desire is not as strong. Whatever it is, maybe work is just completely taking your energy and you literally have nothing left when you get home. Whatever it is, I just wanna encourage you that you're not alone in this. Like, we all go through struggles, but I also wanna encourage you to get the help that you need. And for the spouse, whose spouse has shared that they're struggling, I encourage you to come alongside your spouse and go through it with them and try to realize that you're gonna go stronger through this together. If your spouse, you know, if you look at it like, oh, it's their problem. They need to handle it by themselves. You're not gonna. It's not gonna make you stronger as a married couple, but when you look at every problem as a chance to serve one another and grow closer together, you're gonna come out stronger.

Man, I hope you guys were listening to that. That was some serious wisdom that Ashley just. Just shared with you. So whatever it is, whatever the struggle is that you're facing, face it together. I mean, that's really what this comes down to. Whether it's about sex, like we've talked about today, or about any aspect of your relationship, face it in that love seat together. Don't retreat to the me seats. Don't think, well, she needs to handle it on her own. He needs to handle it on his own. I'm going to meet my own needs in my own way if they're not going to be met here. But look for ways to serve each other, to love each other, to support each other, and you will come out stronger. The other side. Every struggle in your marriage, it's an opportunity. It's an opportunity to come closer together. You don't often get to choose the struggles that you face, but you always get to choose what kind of stories those struggles will become someday.

That's right.

Will this struggle you're facing now someday be a story about how you worked together and served each other and came out stronger on the other side? Or will this struggle be an example of how you drifted apart because you weren't serving each other? You were trying to meet that need in your own way? So face it. Face it in the love seat. And, yeah, you will come up stronger.

Thank you all so much for joining us for this very first episode of the Naked Marriage podcast. You know, we hope you learned something about how you can become better friends in your marriage and how that can make your sex life so much better.

And we also want you guys to be the very first to know about a book project that we are so excited about. Sweetie, you want to tell them what it's called?

It's called the Naked Marriage.

That's right.

It's not just a podcast. It's a book.

It's also a book, and it is coming out February 2019. You guys are the first to know about it. You can actually pre order this book and learn more about it@nakedmarriagebook.com we're so excited to share this with you. It shares so much of what we've learned over the years doing marriage ministry. A lot of our own story, and we really hope it's an encouragement to you. So get the book and also tune in to the Naked Marriage podcast next time. We'll see you then.