Married Sex

Merry Christmas and welcome to the Naked Marriage Podcast. It's our last episode before Christmas Day. Hope you got your shopping done or you're getting close to it. And our Christmas present to you today is a conversation about how to have a great and healthy sex life with our friend Gary Thomas, who I'll tell you about in just a second. But you are listening to the Naked Marriage Podcast with Dave and Ashley Willis. On this podcast, we undress the truth about sex and intimacy and lifelong love. And before we dive in today, my lovely bride is going to read a recent review. And thank you to those who've been submitting reviews. They mean a lot to us and they also help folks discover this podcast.

They do. Today's review is from Cheers, Dash Future, exclamation point. I love that. And this person entitled it oh Happy Day and gave us five stars. Thank you very much. And this person said, I'm still pinching myself hardly believing that you two not only exist, but but really have this in all caps. Podcast. Where were you 22 years ago when my husband and I were newlyweds? Ha. Right now I'm the only one listening, even though I've shared the link and in a couple of episodes with him, how do I get him to take a listen? Why aren't we living in the marriage capital of the US how do I become best friends with you two? You are so sweet together. Your voices are wonderful to listen to. And I hope your new book comes out in audible, which it will just side note as well, because how I read nowadays, that's how I read nowadays. I want a reset man. I want my husband and I to start over. To rewrite our two decades fraught with sadness, resentment, hurt, anger and disappointments. I want to start over. We're 59. 49. I'm sorry, 52. 49 years old. And if we live to be 80, we have three more decades to go. Something's got to change for the better. Thank you for the gift of looking forward to the future with excitement rather than dread. And I want to move to the marriage capital of the U.S. god bless you. God bless your boys, bless your ministry, and bless all the couples you're impacting writing from Vermont. Thank you so much. And we're praying for you. And by the way, the marriage capital of the US if you've been listening to our podcast, we sometimes announce that we're coming to you from South Lake, Texas, the marriage capital of the US So that's what she's referring to because.

It'S the home of the XO marriage headquarters. That's right. And actually a new headquarters being built.

Being built as we speak.

As we speak.

As we speak.

So the marriage Capital of the U.S. south Lake, Texas, is growing even more. So we are so excited.

Yes.

So excited. And so, yeah, come visit. Come visit South Lake.

That's right.

Well, today we've got a special guest with us, and I'm excited about it. Gary Thomas has been somebody we followed for years and learned from for years because he's been just a pioneer in marriage ministry. Oh, I mean, a legend. He's a writer in residence at Second Baptist Church in Houston, Texas. An adjunct faculty member on teaching and spiritual formation at Western Seminary in Portland and Houston Theological Seminary in Houston. The author of over 20 books, including when to Walk Away, Sacred Pathways, Cherish, and Sacred Marriage, which has by itself sold over a million copies. Guys, that is a lot of books. He has a master's degree from Regent College, was awarded his honorary doctorate degree from Western Seminary, and we are so excited to talk about his brand new book called Married Sex. So, again, our Christmas present to you guys is a conversation that could revolutionize your sex life for the better. Let's dive in. So when a little kid who, like, wants to be a basketball player gets to meet someone like LeBron James, it's probably life changing because it's like, wow, because of you, I want to play basketball, too. And it's this big deal. Well, that's kind of how we feel when we get to meet and hang out with Gary Thomas. He's kind of the LeBron James of marriage ministry. And so, you know, as we shared in that we won't read through his whole long, illustrious bio again for you, as we did in the intro, but just really a legend within this space and a guy who was mentoring us long before we'd even met him in person, just from the work that he has done so faithfully for so many years. And so just like I said it in the intro, but I want to say it again, Gary, it's a privilege to have you on here.

Yes, welcome.

I don't even know what to say. Apart from our hair, I don't know that LeBron and I share too much in common. So you're more than kind.

No, it really is an honor to interview you today, and we're really excited to talk about your newest book, Married Sex, which you authored along with our friend Deborah Fileta, who's also been on the podcast. And it's great. And it's actually, you know, there's very few books out there that are so specific. And that's what I love about this book. And so I'd love to hear more about kind of what inspired you to write this.

Well, actually, I was asked to. A number of national marriage ministry leaders have emails and text messages that go back, and the question was just raised, where is the book that we can give to couples? Evangelical couples on sex? And there's some great books out there, but some were seeming a little dated, and some they felt like we can give this to them, but then the wives get upset, even though the guys like it. And one of them specifically said, yeah, I think you need to write that. But I didn't want to write it alone. I felt like I have a certain skill set, I have a certain age, and just praying through it. The chance to work with Deborah Fileta just seemed like a perfect balance. I've been married almost as long as she's been alive. She's a licensed counselor. I'm a spiritual writer. She's a woman. I'm a man. So we're bringing different skill sets, different stages of life, different perspectives, so that we could create a book that men and women could read together and just be helped in this area. We really just wrote it out of just a passion. We just really want to help couples where they feel like there's a safe resource. And the best thing I heard you all are familiar with the Marriage Collective, and a person out there who just has a great national ministry just pulled me aside because, Gary, I think you and Deborah did it. This is the book we've been waiting for, a resource we can give to couples where we don't have to say, well, ignore this part or this 25%. And he just said, thank you, we're going to be able to use it. That's what we were hoping to do. And I was thrilled to hear that others were able to read it that way.

I love it.

And you two are the dream team, really, to tag team on this, because of all those very different and unique strengths and perspectives that you both have. You know, Gary, you coming at it with just a wealth of wisdom, you know, in your own marriage and in your own life and the books that you've written. And then as a pastor, you know, your pastor's heart really comes through in this in such a beautiful way. And then Deborah being that, you know, licensed counselor and being able to kind of attack it from, like, more of a clinical approach, those two things, you know, kind of being married together, it really was a beautiful Blend. And I think that your strengths complemented each other so well. And because of those different perspectives, male, female, you know, all those different perspectives, it was such a beautifully balanced book, and it's one that, you know, we were honored to endorse. I'm so proud that our names are in it is is ones who were able to kind of read it early on. And just the whole time I'm thinking, man, I wish I would have written this. This is just so good. No, but it was really such a needed resource because you're right, especially on that issue of sex within the church. And we're trying to do our part to kind of lead healthy conversations around those same topics, which is why I'm so honored that you're here right now. But there just aren't a lot of really good modern resources to be able to hand couples and say this free from COVID to cover is going to help. It's going to help you thrive because God wants your sex life to be amazing, and this is going to help you get there. So let's dive in a little bit and hope that our listeners will pick up a copy of Married Sex by Gary Thomas and Deborah Foleta. But we're going to share just a little bit through our conversation today about what's in it. So, Gary, what do you feel like are some of the common misconceptions or sexpectations that couples have of with their sex lives?

Yes.

Well, first, that you'll always desire each other. The notions presented in Hollywood, if you love each other, if you're attracted to each other, you're always going to feel like having sex. It's just not true to life. It's the same thing. You know, I love junk food, but if I had a great meal and I'm full, I don't even want the best junk food. A box of hot tamales in front of me. I could even walk away from that. So I think that's one where it really can. We need to get away from the other. Sexpectation that often is wrong is that it's always going to be easy. We found, and Deborah really backs us up as a counselor, that every couple will have sexual issues of some type.

Yes.

And if you don't expect that going in, then you think something's wrong with you. Are we not compatible in this area? No. Every couple will have to face it. We go through it and so just come calm down a little bit and realize that sex is. It just operates in so many levels. There's a spiritual Level, how you feel about it in your conscience before God. There's the emotional level, what's happening relationally. And it's a physical sport. I mean, it involves bodies and your body. There are a lot of areas where sex can become problematic or even seem to go wrong. And so we should expect that something so complex, you're going to have issues, so not to freak out that you're having to work on things. No, this is just a part of being married. One we really wanted to attack throughout the book. I mean, Deborah mentions this in the sexpectation stat, but we really challenge it throughout is that sex is primarily for the man, either for his pleasure or to keep him from sinning or whatnot. And that's just not the way to build a mutually pleasurable sexual relationship. And it isn't true to the word of God. That stresses a woman's pleasure, how God not only physiologically designed a woman for sexual pleasure, but celebrates it in the Song of Songs, the very second verse of that book, the wife saying that she has no higher pleasure than making love to her husband. And so going in expecting that this is something for a couple, not one half of the couple, something you're going to work on. You may not always desire it, but understanding the importance of it in the.

Relationship, I think that is so true. And I think. I hope that there's a lot of, you know, maybe engaged or newlywed couples who are listening to this right now, because I think that would save so many just such frustration, because expectations are everything. I mean, what we. And, you know, and a lot of us going into marriage, we have premarital counseling, but I don't know of many premarital counseling groups or programs that necessarily talk about that. And I think it is something that is so important to acknowledge, because that's when the enemy can really get a foothold, is when we start thinking, oh, there's something wrong with me, or, oh, I guess we aren't compatible. And, you know, I guess this is just not gonna work. And, you know, it's like, because we're all wrapped up in our feelings, you know, and feelings, like we say on this podcast all the time, you know, our feelings are indicative of maybe something going on, but they're not meant to be our compass in our life. And so it's so important to just when you can, like you said, Gary, calm down and know, like, listen, you may not desire it all the time, and that's okay. And it's gonna look a little different in different seasons of your Life and your body doesn't always necessarily cooperate, but that doesn't mean you're damaged. Like there's, you know, there's gonna be things you're gonna have to work through as a couple. And I just love how honest and real you guys get about that, specifically in this book. So thank you for doing that.

Yeah, it's so awesome. Go ahead.

One of the things, I'm sorry, David. One of the things people always talk about the problem of differing libidos is if that's something that can be fixed by that, you know, one wants sex more often than the other. Yes. Well, why is sex different from wanting to eat out? My wife would like when I'm away on a trip and I've been speaking three times, I just want to crash in the hotel room and watch a football game or a movie or something. Lisa's allergic to hotel rooms. There's gotta be a farmer's market, there's gotta be cute shops somewhere to look at. And more often not. Well, we're not gonna fix that. There's not something wrong that Lisa desires to go outside more than I do. That's just a normal part of marriage. Some couples like to be more physically active with exercise. One often doesn't like to exercise as much. One might like to eat out more. One would rather be the homebody who has home cooked meals. But somehow we think that if we don't just perfectly jive sexually that this is a major assault and problem that has to be overcome. And so this chapter was just kind of as you got it out, let's just take a deep breath, calm down. Sex is really good. There are going to be issues that have to be addressed, but we don't have to be frantic that this has, you know, every time the sex has to be better every time the sex has to be super all star quality. It's just recognizing a realistic view of what long term monogamous married sex is all about.

Yes.

It's such a great, such a great illustration. You've got an amazing gift of just being able to take these things that we all make so complicated and just simplifying it and being able to call it what it is. And I love that very true, very beautiful analogy that we're going to be wired up differently in all kinds of ways, like different needs for. I want to do this more, you want to do that more. Neither are wrong. And it's finding a way to serve each other so good. And in this book, there are a lot of things that you described. You And Deborah described that. I thought, that's a new and novel, beautiful way of just kind of putting handles on these concepts. One of those that stood out to me were the five senses of sex that you listed in one of the chapters. And I just thought, yeah, that's so good. And such a. Such a. I don't know. I had just never thought of it that way before, and I thought it was brilliant. And so why don't you share with us kind of what those five senses are?

Well, all of the five senses are celebrated in the Song of Songs as pathways to sexual pleasure. At the start of every section, I have a quote from the Song of Song celebrating how that sense is activated in the lovemaking between a husband and wife. And what this has meant for me, Dave, is, I think, especially when I'm working with a younger couple. And I don't mean to be sexist, but oftentimes with younger husbands, if you mention sex, they're thinking penetrative intercourse.

Right.

I don't know what language I can use on this podcast.

Anything. You were very wide open.

Ashley usually cusses a lot, so, you know, you feel free.

That's not true.

I know that. I know. So they're just thinking of penetrative intercourse. And the whole point of the five seconds senses is appreciating the journey. A man's orgasm lasts about six seconds. The average woman can be like 12 to 15. So it's about twice as a man, but still, that's not very long. And so recognizing that the sexual experience is about the journey to get there, and the senses can just prolong that journey and create an entirely new experience. So it's not just arriving, but the whole process of getting there that can be just as enjoyable and sometimes even more pleasurable. And so they're just little hacks that we talked about. For instance, on the whole sense of sound, the difference neurologically, they've studied this. The difference that listening to music can do and how it creates just a different tone and experience. The kind of music, whether you're listening to music, the way it awakens your brain. We talk about how wives can use their voice as an instrument. If you just look at a wife's words, how it's such a different experience if she is laughing, if she's cooing and moaning, if she's begging, if she's silent, intense, and whatnot. I mean, the same couple could have sex five different times. An entirely different experience, just by the way the wife is using her voice and the sound that she's creating one thing that was helpful for me. And I've been married over three decades. I didn't know this. A woman's skin can be up to 10 times more sensitive than a man. So when you think about the sense of touch, it explains why women often like more foreplay than guys because it just feels better to them. And it also often explains why men sometimes feel like wives touches are too soft and women might feel like, you know, I wish you would have a little bit of a lighter touch. Just knowing those little things can make such a big difference and every couple's gonna be different. But we found some things that were really fun, like smell. There's this one. If we got some younger listeners out there, or even some engaged couples, this one wife did a great thing where she wore a particular kind of perfume their wedding night the first time they made love. Every anniversary, she gets that perfume out, dabs it on, and they're brought back to that wonderful experience. Because smell is directly connected to memory in our brain.

That's right.

And so there's really cool. Lot of little things like that can really add to lifelong sexual intimacy.

Mm.

It's really thinking outside of the box. I love that. But so practical. And I think we can Things that we can actually do, you know, and that's. That's really cool.

Yeah, it is so practical. Like, that's what I love about this is, you know, whenever we talk about sex, some folks, they just kind of clam up and they're like, I don't even know where to start. And this book, it just makes it so practical. It's like, I can do that. And it opens even just what you shared. It's like thinking new thoughts, thinking of things in a new way, and little life hacks that can easily be implemented that are gonna help you and your spouse be more connected. And I love that. But what about the person out there listening? And maybe they're listening specifically to this episode because their sex life at the moment is just non existent. Intimacy is dead. The bedroom is like a cold place. It's just sex is not happening, or certainly sexual intimacy is not happening. And maybe when sex is rarely happening, it's just kind of like, you know, mechanical, and there's not real connection in it. Where can a couple start to rediscover the passion, get back to where they want to be?

Well, as a licensed counselor, Deborah wrote a chapter called Going back to go forward. And sometimes you want to go back and figure out what went wrong. When I had a running injury One time my doctor, he was a marathoner himself, said, okay, what have you changed? Did you change your shoes? Did you have new speed work? He's going back to when I was healthy, and then when I got unhealthy. He says, what was different? And so. And it could be so many different things. There could be theological repression. If somebody just feels like somehow it's naughty or it's wrong or it's sinful and they just don't feel released. And so then you have to deal with it theologically. It could be emotional. There could be abuse issues where abuse is brought up. Now, so many times I've talked with people where because of abuse, or not necessarily abuse, but just they felt like they did things that weren't appropriate before they got married. And it brings up those old guilt feelings. Even though the guilt isn't appropriate anymore, they haven't dealt with the guilt, and so they've got to deal with those psychological issues. It could be relational. It could be the lack of something in a relationship. One wife told me, gary, I would love to have a great sexual relationship with my husband. She goes, and if he would just pray with me, she said, he wouldn't be able to handle me at night. He'd be crying uncle long before the night is through. She said, I would wear him out before you touch my body, touch my soul, or on a negative way in a relationship. Another woman said, gary, everything you're saying sounds great, but here's the problem. Everything I do is wrong. I don't drive right, I don't clean right, I don't raise the kids right, I don't clean, nothing I do. So I know at the end of the day when I'm really tired and I'm in bed, if we have sex, he's gonna be critiquing me. And it's not that she doesn't want to have sex. She doesn't want to be criticized. And so it's a critical spirit that's killing the sexual relationship. It could be that it's not mutually pleasurable. One partner doesn't feel cherished, one partner feels used. I mentioned in my book on cherishing marriage, the difference is I want to use sex to cherish my wife, not use my wife to cherish sex.

Yeah, that's so good.

Very different thing. And if somebody's feeling used, eventually they're going to start to hate sex. Nobody likes to feel used. And then finally, like, there's a half a dozen things to explore. But finally, I would say maybe it's A physical thing. It could be premature ejaculation, erectile dysfunction, pain for the woman, any number of things that are just physical realities. The wife might have a difficult time orgasming. So it's trying to figure out, okay, is it spiritual, is it psychological, is it relational, is it physical? There are a lot of areas to explore. The point is, it's worth exploring, it's worth doing the work. Because the sexually intimate relationship lifts the marriage up on so many different levels. It requires grace and vulnerability. It draws you together, it creates those wonderful after sex smiles later on when you're in a room with everybody else and nobody knows what you did, but you two know it. Just a lot of good things. And so it's worth going back so that you can go forward.

Man, that's so good.

It's so good. I really hope, you know, Gary mentioned so many things that I know so many of our listeners can relate to. And, you know, I hope that when you heard that, that maybe a light bulb went off, it's not any kind of shame attached to it. Don't you know, this is not meant to shame anybody? Or, you know, like, let's say maybe there was like a sexual past and you felt shame over that. You know, God wants you to have freedom and so you have to be able to take it out into the open and, and deal with it and talk to your spouse about it and allow God to heal you from that because he wants you to have a thriving marriage and having a thriving sex life is, is part of that. But you gotta get real about it. And so I love how you guys talk. So. And you know, out of the gate, Gary said this book is meant to be read by both the husband and the wife to get the most out of this. And so I hope when you all pick this up that that's what you'll do, that you'll both read it and not point fingers. That's not the point of this. But really, as you read it, to kind of, you know, ask God to reveal to you, you know, maybe if you can relate to some of this stuff and then really talk about it with your spouse and begin to talk about what are some things we can do differently, you know, what. What are the things we want to continue doing that maybe have been confirmed as kind of moving us in the right direction from reading this book. But what are some things that we need to maybe tweak or change or get help with? And just like Gary said, I mean that the thing that could just really continue to bring our Sex life down and moving in the wrong direction is not doing anything and just kind of sitting back and saying, well, this is just how it is. But we can move forward and have a better sex life than we probably ever thought we could if we just, if we continue to work on things just like we work on our marriage relationship.

Yeah, it's so, so good. And you know, Gary mentioned, he mentioned some of the areas of sexual dysfunction that can hold people back, including erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, discomfort during sex. We actually. Next month, stay tuned. We're interviewing two physical therapists who specialize in pelvic floor issues, which are the group of muscles. Well, just to preview, we're going to talk all about some of the physical ways that you can work through some of those very common issues. So just as a preview of that. But Gary and Deborah also addressed some of that right here in this book. And there's no shame if you're experiencing anything like that. That can be an embarrassing thing to talk about. And you feel like my body's not working right. And that's part of what's holding me back. But part of what this book is going to do so well for you is just be a safe place for you to have those guided conversations with your spouse and to realize you're not alone and there is help and hope available to get you to that place of a healthy sex life. And Gary, one more question before we dive into our kind of question of the day from a listener. And that is just like what does a healthy sex life look like in marriage? Because I think we all have these different ideas and usually when we think of sexy health. Sexy health life.

Sexy healthy sex life.

No, I think sexy health life is going to be our next sexy health life. Sexy health life. So I want. Yeah, so you know what I meant.

Healthy sex life.

Healthy sex life, yes. What does that mean? You know, I mean I want my sex life to be healthy. And what does that mean? Because that's a loaded question. But what does it look like?

I think one of the benchmarks is that it's mutually pleasurable. Both partners feel cherished, both partners feel loved. Both partners feel pleased that they know this isn't just one sided, but it's for both. That's the way God designed it to work. And I think a healthy sex life takes both partners pleasure into account. I think speaking as a Christian, and I think this is important, it should also draw us closer to God. There shouldn't be anything in the bedroom where somebody's coerced or made to go against their conscience. Anything that they feel separates them from God. The best sex is when you realize you experience it to the fullness as God designed it. And you're. You're thanking God that he created something so wonderful that he created you with the body, that he's given you a spouse, that you get to experience this. It should be a worshipful experience. Not something that gets in the way of your conscience. Not something that makes you wince when you think back, but actually something that makes you want to praise and worship. I think that's the marker of a healthy sex life as well.

Amen.

I love that.

I'll give that an amen for sure.

Yeah. Love it.

And can I. I don't mean to get weird, but Ashley said something I really wanted to follow up on because I really appreciate you mentioning this. I just have a feeling someone might need to hear this. When you said somebody that feels like they were maybe sexually active before they got married or something, and it's really tripping them up.

Yeah.

And I would just say, as a pastor, we don't pay for past sins by experiencing sexual frustration in the present.

Yeah.

It's still. It steals from our spouse, and that doesn't pay for our sins. Jesus paid for our sins so that we could enjoy the fullness of life here on earth and in heaven. And so trust in the fact that you have a savior, Go to Jesus, receive forgiveness. It is a lie that you should accept a substandard sex life because you had your fun before you got married. The reality is sexual marriage should blow premarital sex out of the water. It can be so much better, so much fulfilling, and even so much more exciting and pleasurable. And so it is a lie from hell.

Yes.

In any way, accepting a substandard sex life pays for past sexual sin. Jesus pays for our sin, not us.

That is so good.

So true. I hope people are really listening. I know that. Leaning into that, because I know that there are people that they need to hear that. So thank you so much for sharing that. I know it's gonna set so many people free. All right, well, Q and A time. And we get to have Gary with us, so we're so excited.

I love it when I have someone that is really experienced and smart. Cause, you know, Ashley's the really smart one in the relationship. But when I need backup on these questions and I can just hire a pinch hitter.

Oh, my goodness. Gary.

To come in and deal with these difficult questions. And I don't have to. I don't have to figure it out. You're so sweet. But today's question. Thank you, by the way, to those who write in these questions. It's my favorite part of the whole podcast because it lets us know what you're going through, and it gives us an opportunity to serve you by talking about these specific issues. So you can write us@nakedmarriagepodcast.com and submit your questions there if you want them read on the air today. He says, in my marriage, my wife feels like I require too much of her time, and it is never enough. She has her own interests and things she likes to do alone and encourages me to do the same. I grew up with a very different example of marriage where the husband and wife basically did everything together. How can I give her the space she's asking for and not feel alone? Oh, I think I've misread that first sentence, mate. My wife feels like I require too much of her time.

Right, Right.

Yeah. Okay. So the husband in this situation, he wants to be together all the time, and the wife's like, you're smothering me, man. Like, I need my space. I need.

And so we've actually, we have a couple that we've worked with, very exact dynamic with this. So I know this dynamic and it. And I see both sides. Like, I see both sides of it. But it can be very frustrating for both when one is very independent and loves their spouse, but, like, really just has kind of their own way of doing things.

I get it. And, Gary, does this come kind of down to that example you gave early on about, you know, difference? You equate a difference in sex drive to difference in preferences in other areas. It's like, I have a higher drive for sex versus a higher drive for. This is a higher drive for togetherness versus a higher drive for, like, autonomy a little bit in marriage. Is that. Is that.

Yeah.

Is that comparable or is it two, like, totally different things?

No. Well, look, I'm working with a premarital couple now where this came up on a test. She is an extreme introvert. He's very much an extrovert. And so we talked about what that meant. She's going to need some time alone. She needs to regroup, and he's going to have to give her space and learn not to take it personally.

Right.

It doesn't mean she doesn't like him. It means that's how she regroups. And she'll be a better wife. She'll be a happier person if she can do some things. She may want to pray alone. You know, she might, you might say, how can you not want to pray together? Well, maybe she prays better alone. If she's a strong introvert, that doesn't mean she can't occasionally pray with him. But I think it's wise to give her her space. And so I would say this isn't something you should expect to change or overcome. This is one of those things that Dr. Gottman says you've got to manage and deal with.

Manage is a good word.

She may have to give a little bit to spend more time with you than she would like to, but you've got to learn to find independently, you have other friendships, you learn to do things on your own. And it's just, it's just the way we process things as introverts and extroverts. It's not wrong or right, it's just is. That's why I like to bring it up in premarital counseling. My couple's been forewarned. He knows what she's getting into, she knows what she's getting into. But once you're married and you have that, then it's like, well, okay, here's how you deal with it.

Yeah, my mind goes, and maybe this is like just to middle school, but it's like, I don't know, my sense of humor is kind of there. But it made me think. Years ago there was this Saturday Night Live sketch of this fake commercial and it was for the couple that just insisted on doing everything together. And it was a two seated toilet where the couple, like, the joke was that the couple even like would have to go to the bathroom together because they wanted to do everything together. And it was so cringy. But like, I laughed and laughed because they made it look like a real commercial for that couple that just couldn't be a part.

Oh my goodness.

But you know, the joke is that obviously there are just moments clearly where you're going to need your own space, and that's okay. And especially, you know, Factoring in introvert vs extrovert, different preferences and all that, that really in marriage we're just trying to help each other be at our best. And if your spouse needs a little more alone time, don't make them feel badly for how God wired them up. Just help them to get that space that they need. I mean, even in our marriage, there's different rhythms that we've learned to kind of appreciate about each other. And you know, I'm a morning person, she's a night owl. Like you know, I don't make her try to get up early. She doesn't make me stay up late. You know, she has a routine here and there. And, like, we, you know, we make sure to prioritize each other.

Right. We're together a lot.

We're together a lot. But we also.

But I'm an extrovert. I mean, an introvert. Very, very much so. And he knows that about me.

Yeah. And I like to go for a jog. Not probably as fast as Gary. He's like a legit, legit runner. But I'll, like, slowly hobble along. But she's not.

I'm not a runner.

She's not a runner. And so I don't try to make her be. But we'll go walks together. Like, we just have to figure out.

Find your flow.

How to find your flow and help your spouse be at their best and serve each other's needs.

Right. I want to. Go ahead. Yes, go ahead.

If I could add not to judge your marriage or compare it to others, it doesn't mean you're not as good of match as a couple. Every marriage is unique in its own way. And you might have two extroverts that really want to spend just about every moment of the day that doesn't. There's not something wrong with that, and there's not something wrong with you wanting space. If we go back to the analogy we used before about couples wanting different things that you brought in, Dave, on our last speaking trip, I know Lisa likes to get out. I got done speaking. It was a long day. We had four sessions. We went out, and there's this area she wanted to look. And then, so after an hour and a half, two hours, I'm like, okay, I'm done. She goes at shops. I go back. I'm laying down. I'm watching a little football or something. So she felt like she got some time with me, but then I got some time to decompress. That's okay. There's no wrong or right to this. It's two people trying to give a little to each other, respecting each other and appreciating each other.

Absolutely. I want to add a little thing, though, and I don't know. Let me see that question real quick, sweetie. It's hard to tell from these questions, all the different layers to it, because there's definitely, you know, it's nuanced, and there's things that he's not saying that are going on. And I just want to say this. If the issue is an issue of Priority, which we've talked a lot about on this podcast, and it's more than just time together. But he doesn't feel like he has a priority in her life. That's an entirely different issue. We have whole podcasts on this, and if that is the issue, then, you know, I would definitely talk to her about that and say, listen, it's more than just the time, but I feel like your friends, your job, your interests are just more important than me. So when push comes to shove, you're gonna choose them over me. And that just hurts me. It makes me feel lonely. It's not that I don't want to give you the time. I understand that you're wired differently than me, but I just want to know that I'm your priority, that I'm one of your top priorities. You know, it's God and then the marriage, and. And if that's the issue, which I don't know if it is, but if it is, that that definitely is something that needs to be addressed. And. And then you guys can talk about. You know, she may not even realize that, like, it. It may be a huge blind spot for her. So give her the benefit of the doubt that she doesn't. You shouldn't. You know, she's not intentionally trying to hurt you. But I definitely think that that issue of priority, if. If that is the issue, needs to be addressed.

She is as wise as she is beautiful. My friends, you're silly. Guys, listen, this has been a great, great conversation. I encourage you to pick up Gary and Deborah's book for both Gary and Deborah. We're honored to call them friends and just so believe in what they're doing. Married Sex is a great, great book that's gonna help you grow in this season of this aspect of your marriage. And even though this is a separate book, not to confuse the waters, but just to congratulate Gary on a huge milestone. It wasn't too long ago, Gary, that I saw that you and your publisher were celebrating a million copies of Sacred Marriage. A million copies.

I mean, that's awesome.

That is just a million. That is just amazing. And we just want to congratulate you on that because it's just, you know, it's just another example of how your work is all around the world, continuing to change marriages, point people closer to Christ and closer to one another, build legacies of strong marriages and families. And this latest book, Married Sex, is another wonderful step on that journey, and we just love you and cheer you on.

Yes.

If I ever get a tattoo, it's probably gonna be a tattoo of Gary Thomas.

Oh, my goodness.

I'm just trying to figure out where.

To put it, but he's like, please don't.

It's probably on my back, but I'm around. I'm silly. I'm still trying to figure that out. I'll let you know. But, Gary, where can folks find you? Because I know if they're not following you already or not reading your books, they're gonna want to start. So what's one of the best places they can find you?

Well, my website has a blog and lists all my books. It's just my name, garythomas.com. remember my name, Gary Thomas. Just put a dot com at the end and you'll get there and have a blog on growing in Christ and then a blog on for marriage and singles. The website for the book is Married Sex Us. Now, you gotta be careful when you type in anything like that in Google, but MarriedSex US will take you to the landing page for the book.

Perfect. I love it. Thank you again so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to talk with us. It's really been our pleasure.

And thank you all for listening to the Naked Marriage podcast. Gary, keep up the great work. And everybody, we'll see you next time.

Bye, guys.

Sam.