Our Guide to Talking (and Really Hearing) Each Other

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Hey, friends. Welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We're Dave and Ashley Willis. We're so thankful that you stopped by today to help build your marriage. We've got a really important topic to talk about today. We're going to talk about one of the biggest red flags in marriage, one of the biggest warning lights, danger signs, and what to do if it pops up in your marriage. And that warning flag, that warning sign.

That red flag, is lack of communication.

Lack of communication.

You know, we always say that most marriage problems, however you classify them, it usually comes down to a communication issue.

It really does.

And so we're going to talk about it.

We are, because we are convinced that communication does for your marriage what breathing does for your lungs. It is a life force. It's a lifeline. And if it's not happening, you're suffocating the relationship. And so many people write us or, you know, they'll speak to us at events or in counseling settings. This is really the issue.

Oh, yeah.

Like, where they just. They get frustrated and they say, all right, I'm just. I'm just not going to talk. We're just not going to talk. Some couples have even kind of gotten into this uncomfortable reality where they essentially live not communicating. They're two people under the same roof. They don't really connect or talk about much of anything anymore unless it's very. Just deep factory in it, like, all right, we got to pick up the kids at this time, and we got to do this. But in terms of really connecting on an emotional level, it doesn't happen. And that is so sad. And if your marriage has gotten there, we don't want this episode to make you feel beat up. We want it to be a healing, safe place for you to realize, okay, we're not alone. We don't have to point fingers at exactly how we got here. But what we do need to do is recognize that it's a crisis and start creating a roadmap to move out of it, to A place of.

That's right. So let's get to it, sweetie. Communication. You know, it's probably been a while since we've shared this, but both Dave and I in our undergrad majored in communication. Dave has a master's in communication. He has taught. He's been professor. He's been Dave Willis professor of communication.

And I've still been bad at communicating in marriage.

That's the irony of it is, like, we went into marriage thinking, you know, you go through all these different things in your premarital classes or sessions with your pastor or, you know, however you get your premarital information. And we did. We read the books, we did the exercises. But I think we glossed over the communication aspect because we're like. I mean, we've studied interpersonal and intrapersonal communications. Like, we know this stuff, you know, And I just remember being really, really just naive and thinking, we've got this, you know, because at the time, too, even leading up, we didn't have a particularly long engagement. It was kind of midd ten month or so. And so by the time we got married, I think I had known you about a year and a half. And we really felt like we were kind of prideful. Like, we felt like we know how to communicate. I mean, we haven't really had a big fight. We even dated long distance briefly. And we did pretty good with that. We got this thing, you know, and you know, what comes like, before a fall? Pride comes before a fall, right?

Yes.

And let me tell you, God. God in his wisdom burst our bubble pretty quickly. Like, I would say, like week two of our. Of our marriage. Because, you know, we get home from the honeymoon, all of a sudden we're dealing with real life. I was still in college at the time. Dave was starting a new job at the time. So we have bills. I think we got a dog. And the dog was like a devil dog. Like, we had a little kid neighbor, and we're like, oh, no, we're gonna have our dog hurt the neighbor. Like. And so we had these things, these issues that we had to talk about all of a sudden, like real life stuff and in laws and all the things. And all of a sudden communication and sex. Yes. I mean, don't let me leave that out.

Different.

Totally different ideas and ideas exactly. Like, of what it's supposed to look like. And all of a sudden we're like, oh, we really don't know what we're doing here. Like, we don't. We don't know how to do this right. And we really had to hone in on, like, how do we communicate in a healthy way? And I fell into some negative patterns really quickly out of the gate. Like, I realized really quickly just how much I don't like conflict. Like, I just. I don't like conflict at all. Like, I don't. I realize the need to have to address things with someone, but I kind of. I didn't realize how much I didn't like conflict until I was married. And then, like, looking back, I realized, really, that was a trend in most of my relationships. But, you know, when you're married, everything comes to a head. And I remember there'd be times where we were trying to address something, and I would be like that person who gets a rash that starts, you know, on their chest and moves up their neck, and then it's on their face. And I could feel it like a rash. Like, I'm getting hives just from having to deal with conflict. Like, I had such anxiety over it. And so what I found myself doing was I would just shut down. Like, Dave would do something that I didn't like or disappoint me or whatever it was, and I would just push it down. And I would tell myself things like, well, a good wife just doesn't need to address that. Like, it's okay. Which is.

Yeah. Which is silly.

Exactly. And I don't even know where we get these standards or whatever. And I would. I just kept pushing it down and down and down. But what happens when you keep on internalizing things? Eventually it's gonna come out because it's not healthy and because we can only stand so much. And so we would be, like, mid conversation, something that wasn't even a big deal. And then I would end up kind of unleashing on you about something that wasn't a big deal because I had dismissed all these other things that some were little, some maybe were bigger, but it's because I never addressed it. I would then end up saying something to you that I really didn't mean. You know, and even if it wasn't the words, it would definitely be in the tone. And you would look at me like a deer in headlights. Like, I just don't even know what just happened. Like, what just happened there. And, you know, we'd find ourselves in that dynamic, and we realized really quickly, like, this isn't. This isn't healthy. And that was during a time, I think when it really came to a head, was during a time when we were really dealing with a lot of in law issues. And so it wasn't just us trying to figure out how to communicate, but we were also trying to figure out how do we communicate with a difficult. In law or in laws, you know?

Well, and I think a lot of times our communication patterns are learned early, for sure. And for you, you know, you grew up and for just kind of a variety of reasons, I think you felt like as a child that you had to. You had to keep your feelings bottled up a lot of times to be a peacemaker.

Yeah.

And then you carried that with you. And all of us are carrying stuff from childhood into it, you know, on a just kind of a different random story that does tie in. I was watching this documentary on Gene Wilder. I love that he's a great actor. You younger folks would probably just know him as the original Willy Wonka. And so he's kind of legendary for that role, but was a great comedic actor through the 60s and 70s and even beyond. But in this documentary I was watching on Netflix, this story was told about when he was 8 years old and he was being raised by a single mom. And his mom had heart problems, she had health issues, and this doctor came to their house and just how sometimes one thing spoken over you when you're a child can make such a difference. Because when we're young, it's like there's wet cement in our minds and hearts and the words and the things that happen to us when we're kids. It leaves impressions in that wet cement hardens over time and we start to see ourselves in the world around us in view of those early experiences. So when he was eight years old, with his mother sickly being raised by this single mom, the doctor came and put his hand on Gene's shoulder. And Gene Wilder isn't even his real name, it's a stage name. I can't remember his birth name. And this doctor very sternly said to him, never argue with your mother or complain about anything because you could kill her. He said, just try to make her laugh and imagine putting that weight on an eight year old child. And he went forward in his life feeling like his mother's very survival depended on him never expressing anything, any negative emotion, having any kind of conflict. All he could do is channel it into just being funny, into adulthood. He kind of carried that with him and he found outlets for that through stage and through acting. But ultimately it made relationships difficult because you can't really talk about real things. If you feel like I can never have any form of conflict, I can never be disagreeable. So sometimes Our pathology back from when we were young, it carries on into marriage. And that spouse who maybe has this reaction of just trying to make something funny in a serious moment, and you think, my goodness, you're making light of this. You're being disrespectful. But to that person, they might have learned a survival mechanism as a child where humor. For me, it isn't trying to just be a distraction. It's. It is what I have to do to bring peace in moments when I don't know what else to do.

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And so instead of thinking whatever your spouse is doing, whether it's avoidance, whether it's trying to make light of it, whether it's, you know, whatever it is, even if it's something completely unhealthy like yelling, you can say, look, that's out of bounds. Let's make a rule not to do that. Here's why. But I also want to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you grew up in a house where the loudest voice won every time. And so you were taught that's how to communicate. If you're passionate, you're going to yell. And I was taught that when you yell, you've lost control. And if you're not in control, then you can't have reason. And so I just don't listen to people who yell. So you both learn broken communication patterns, and you got to come together and say, what does healthy communication look like? What were the things our parents did right that we want to learn from? But let's be honest about the things that weren't as healthy, that we don't want to repeat. What are those things that I grew up thinking were normal that aren't normal? And let's figure out what healthy communication looks like so we don't just avoid. Because one thing we should all agree on is avoiding communication is unhealthy. Communication.

Right? Avoidance doesn't solve anything. And I mean, I learned that clearly. And I think we both realize me pushing everything down, acting like everything's okay when it's not, wasn't helping us. And I think there were times too where you could feel my tension in those early years especially. And you would, on hard days at work, you knew it was there. I'm not saying anything because I'm pushing it down. And you wouldn't address it either because you're like, I just don't even have it in me to address this right now. And so that brings us to the part of our story where we're dealing with major, major in law issues. Okay. And I won't say who, just not to throw them under the bus. But if you want to know the entire story, our book, Married into the Family, goes into our entire story using different names, but also the stories of many others who've had difficulties with in laws. And this isn't just parental in laws, but brother in law, sister in law, daughter in law, son in law. I mean, it.

Every family's complicated in its own way.

I'm telling you. It's so common. And so we found ourselves just at this crossroads where we're having our own communication issues and trying to figure that out. But now we're realizing we really don't even know how to communicate with our parents and our in laws and to set boundaries. Like, we just, we were out, just way out of our league. Like we didn't know what to do. And so we both agreed we need counseling. Like, we need to go to a professional who is wiser and more experienced and knows how to deal with this stuff. And so we made an appointment with a counselor. And I just remember he handed us the book Boundaries and we read that cover to cover and it's been, you know, the book Boundaries by doctors Townsend and Cloud? It's amazing. It's been even, I think there's like a new version of it just for this day and age with things like social media and everything else. But it just really opened our eyes. And I remember too, I went to another counselor kind of in those years because this wasn't just like a short amount of time. This was probably five to ten years. Would you Say we dealt with this on and off to different degrees.

Yeah.

I mean, it was a long time.

One I thought would never end, frankly. So it's miraculous to see how God's brought healing there, definitely. But it was a long road.

Another book, and I love to give books when I can, because not just our own. I mean, I love our books and definitely want y' all to read those and to learn things from those books, but there's just so many great books out there. And another book that really helped me during that time was one a counselor gave me. It was called Emotionally Destructive Relationships. And that, to me, was very eye opening and understanding people that I love in my life that for whatever reason, probably were repeating a pattern with people they love in their life, too. And it was going on and on, and it was kind of to give me perspective on that and how to not continue it. Because I think one of the things that really grieved my heart the most was when I became a mother, I just knew that I needed to understand how to get this communication thing right. First and foremost with you, but secondly with how I talk to my own parents, to your parents, and communicate in a healthy way with all those people, but also so that I would take the good from my family, but also not perpetuate the bad, you know, because I wanted. We wanted to get it right with our kids. And no parents are perfect out there. We all make mistakes. No kids are perfect. None of us. No marriages are perfect. But I did want to do my best to understand how to have healthy relationships. And I knew that communication was a big part of that. And so through those years of counseling with us collectively, but with us individually, too, it helped me tremendously. And so, again, I mean, I know you guys are like, man, Dave and Ashley, nearly on every episode, you talk about Christian counseling and you talk about the exomarriage mediators. But I'm going to talk about it nearly every episode because I know it works and I know it helps. And so if you need a counselor individually or for marriage, go to aacc.net, that's the American association of Christian Counselors. They have a vetted list there. You can also check out our ExoMarriage mediators@exomarriage.com help. But what I want to say is most of us, I would say most, if not all of us, could use some professional help when it comes to getting communication, right? And what I think couples do so often is we wait too long, like, and it's never too late. Okay? But I do think we wait too long to get the help we need because we tell ourselves things like, well, it's just a season. Or, you know, I mean, when things slow down, then we'll address it. Or, you know, it's not as bad as so and so down the street. I mean, I hear them screaming, you know, from my. From the sidewalk. We're not that bad. But, you guys, that really isn't what we even need to be talking about. If we feel that tension, that in and of itself is enough to say, okay, I'm feeling tension. We haven't been communicating. We're not talking. Cause sometimes that tension can lead to literal breakdown in talking. And that, again, is a huge red flag that we need to get help addressing. And so I don't know where we would be if we didn't have those counselors during that time. It gave us so much hope and help. We took practical steps. It helped us both to get on the same page. And practically speaking, and there's no shame.

At all, learn to do this. In fact, it is wise to seek counsel. Yes, it's a sign of wisdom to reach out and say, you know what? We could benefit from an impartial third party to speak into this. Somebody with training, someone with perspective that we need to help us see our blind spots and help us navigate a way forward. And I'm so thankful for that. And I agree with you. I think everybody could benefit from that. We've benefited from individual counseling and from, you know, being. Whether as a couple or as individuals, there's great benefit in it.

There's just such wisdom, and if anything, just being able to talk about it. Because when you've gone through long seasons of not talking to your spouse, you know, or maybe you talk about your problems, but it's with a friend. And sometimes our friends, I mean, hopefully, they can really give good advice and wisdom and be a good sounding board. But sometimes during those seasons when we're really not, you know, things aren't going so well in our marriage, we tend to gravitate towards people who are gonna be like, you know, you're so right and he's so wrong, or, you know what? She just does not understand you. Like, we tend to find those people. And so when you go to a counselor, it's that neutral party who doesn't have a dog in the fight. Like, they're just here to. To tell you how to do this better. And, you know, I just think it's just so important. And I actually am a counselor. You guys know This. I went to school for three years. I had my master's in biblical counseling, and I've been actively counseling individuals and couples. And one of the trends I'm seeing is there are some couples that get to a point where they get so tired, they feel like they don't know how to communicate, that they will literally go days without talking. Like, they'll do what they need to do in their house, they'll do the business of life. Like, they'll take the kids where they need to go, they'll go to their jobs, they'll take out the trash, they'll do the household duties, but they literally won't talk. And it will go on for days. And, you know, and I'll. I know I'll be like, well, tell me more about that. Like, tell me specifically what that looks like. And they're not exaggerating. Like, they'll sleep in different rooms. They'll literally not even look at their spouse because they're like, I'm just so exhausted and I'm afraid it's just gonna end up in a fight.

And.

And I don't think he'll listen to me. I don't think she'll. She'll understand me. So we're just not talking. And let me tell you, when we get to that point, that is just a major whopping, you know, light on the dashboard saying, check engine. Major, major issue. This is a red flag that you need to get help with. And that's, you know, thankfully, these people that I'm talking with are getting help. They recognize that they had the courage to come to counseling. And that's something, though, you know, from a counselor's perspective, I'll tell you, it's not something that's going to be fixed overnight, but you can take a big leap forward by just being willing to sit down with a professional and to talk about it and then to take baby steps towards how you do that on your own. Because that's the goal, is to be able to do this in your daily life on your own. And so back to kind of those years when we were really struggling with this, I realized I had to change how I was handling our communication. I realized that I didn't need to just stuff it down. Like, if something really bothered me, I needed to take that little moment, like, each of us can take that self assessment and even say a little prayer and say, is this something that I need to let go? That's just an idiosyncrasy of my spouse. Something that is just getting on My nerves. It's just not even, like, worth really saying anything about. Or is this really something that I need to address with them? Like, were they being disrespectful? Am I feeling like there's a need that's not being met? Or I feel misunderstood in some way? Like, those, obviously, you know, we need to address. And so I just. I realized that and I started having that moment where I would really ponder that and pray about it, and then I wouldn't. I wouldn't stuff it down and I would address it with you. And, man, it was awkward at first because I wasn't good at it. Like, I remember it just felt. I was so worried that you think I was being a nag. Like, I think that was my biggest fear was like, oh, my gosh, he's going to think I'm just nitpicky and naggy. But I remember the counselor really helped me to see, like, no, I mean, if it's a real issue that isn't. Again, it's not being just critical, you know, of your every little move or whatever.

Yeah. But something sharing what's on your heart and what you desire and what you're feeling and what you're thinking and leaning into that. That's marriage. We need to be connected. We need to know what's going on in each other's minds, hearts, lives. And if we're not. If we're not connected in that way, then we're not living out marriage the way that God intended. We're settling for something much less.

We are. And I realized that, like, the more I would do that, the more it did feel natural. But at it wasn't natural. Like, really took me a while to find the words. I just. I didn't want to have. I was under the false. Like, one of the lies. I was believing that I realized, and some of you might have this too, is I believe that, like, if I ever had issue with anything, that I was being difficult. Like, I really had that narrative that, you know, if you, you know. And complain's not even the word, but I saw it. Like, any issue would be complaining. And I. And like, that's difficult. That's being a difficult naggy wife. Like, that's what I believed back then. And I had to really shift that belief that, no, if I'm stuffing it down and I'm not addressing it, I'm avoiding it. And avoidance doesn't solve it. And really, I'm keeping things from you and it's not being truthful with you, which is even More so. That's so wrong.

Or shutting down communication, which both spouses can be guilty of. I've been guilty of it. Because when you just feel like, I'm so exhausted right now, I don't have the energy to really get into everything that I'm feeling. And so I'd rather just shut it down. So how are you? Fine. Okay, fine. Just trying to, like, shut down conversations with one word answers that really aren't true and they end communication instead of starting it. And we've been in different stressful seasons where we were walking through that. You know, we were exhausted mentally. We were going through a lot of feeling stress, trying to deal with it in our own ways instead of leaning into each other. And our communication was just so cut off for a while until we really leaned in and said, hey, we've got to talk about what's really going on and not assume that we're feeling the same things. I mean, we've got to. Like, for instance, on the way here today, I was on a plane. We were on a plane, and I was the middle seat in a three row, you know, like, three seats. I was the middle.

Three seats. Yeah, the middle seat.

Well, you never want to be the middle, but it's fine. So I had Ashley on one side and I had this big guy on the other side that I'd never seen before. Now, we were right next to each other, shoulder to shoulder. Like, we were close in proximity, but the three of us were having completely different experiences. So Ashley's asleep?

Yeah, I did. I actually slept.

So she was just. She was having peaceful, wonderful, beautiful sleep. The guy on my right, he was in work mode.

He was. He was.

He was at that laptop. He was like, you know, he had a phone call right before one of the loud phone calls to, like, let people know that you're important.

You know, this happens all the time on planes.

There's the one guy on the phone. Like, he wants everybody to know I'm real important. I'm. Yeah, that's what I. Yeah, we'll deal with it. He talks lower than he. Yeah, I'm gonna be. Yeah, you know, I'm gonna take care of that as soon as I get back to the office. That's right. You know, you gotta be loud. You gotta lower your voice, let people know, like, hey, I'm a big deal.

Yeah, don't be that guy.

Or girl. Well, anyway, I was sitting next to that guy and. And then he was on his laptop typing away. So he was in work mode and I was in the middle. And I was watching this movie where I got crying.

Honey, I did not even know. Why didn't you wake me up?

Because. Because you don't connect to my feelings. So I'm crying at this movie.

Well, which.

And it was a touching movie.

I needed to give you a hug.

I recommend it. It's called One Life. Anthony Hopkins is in it. It's a true story about this guy right before the Holocaust, helped save all these kids. And then these kids, you know, the kids grow up. And it's very touching, very inspiring. And it got me. And so I'm, like, bawling at the end, and this big burly guy next to me that, like, shows no emotion. I can sense him looking at me from his laptop, and I realize I'm shoulder to shoulder with this dude, crying, being judged by him. And, you know, and you're asleep, so I can't lean into you. Comfort me.

You could have. You could have.

Well, it was a funny moment, but it was a reminder to me, too, that, like, sometimes in marriage, you can be in the same place, you know, your proximity. We're right here together, and we're having two completely different experiences. This is how it ties in the communication thing. And you can't assume your spouse is experiencing what you're experiencing.

Yeah.

You know, I'm the only one crying there. I could be thinking, why aren't they sad? Do they not care? They're not experiencing what I'm experiencing.

Yeah.

You know, it's an experience that I'm experiencing. The emotion's real to me. But the fact that Ashley's not feeling it doesn't mean that she's not connected to me. It means she's having a different experience right now. And we've got to be able to communicate to let them know. Otherwise, we're just going through life making assumptions. And you can't do that in marriage. You have to lean in. You have to say what's really going on. What are you struggling with today? What are you excited about today? What can I do to lighten your load today? Make that communication a priority, because the longer you go without it, the harder it is to start those habits. And if you're listening to this episode, maybe you're listening because you've been in a drought communication wise. And you're like, I'm trying to figure out how to restart it. Like Ashley said, it's awkward at first when you're restarting anything or starting anything, always. But, sweetie, what would be some of your advice for the people listening and they're like, yeah, we're on different pages. We're out of sync. We're not communicating. But I don't know how to start because I feel like when I do, they shut it down. How are you? Fine. You know, they're the ones giving those quick answers to shut it down. How do I. How do I get them to open up? And how do I open up myself in a way where they'll hear me?

I love that question. And let me tell you, I mean, you know, and we've. I know we were talking about the red flags. I want to say really quick, just like different scenarios. It could be just so you can recognize if you're in this season. It could be that anytime you want to talk about something, you can tell your spouse tenses up or you tense up and you don't really get anywhere in the conversation. It could be that you're like that those couples I was talking about that don't talk for days, that you just kind of do life around each other, not really connecting. And like, when your spouse walks in the room, you don't even look their way. Like, that's a big sign. Like, you don't even care to look their way. And I'm not saying, like, you're in the middle of something and then look their way. That's fine. But I mean, like, you just don't even address that they're home. That's a sign. Like you're avoiding each other. I would say, too, you have maybe look at your habits. Like, is it when you know your spouse is gonna be home? Is that when you go to the gym? Cause you don't wanna have. You just don't wanna hear about their day. You don't wanna connect. Cause you're afraid you're gonna fight. Or maybe it's not the gym. Maybe it's. You pop open that wine and go in your room in the house, and you just wind it up and you just distance yourself from everybody in the house because you're numbing kind of that pain of not being able to communicate with each other. You know, it can look a lot of different ways, but those are just some kind of ways that I think are pretty common in this day and age of people avoiding. Of spouses avoiding one another. And so what can we do? You know, I love one of my favorite marriage books that I use a lot as far as, like, practical exercises, if you want. If you're like, how do I do this? Like, how do I get out of this funkiness of. Of Just constantly being at odds with each other and avoiding each other and just not communicating. I love the book by Dr. John Gottman called Seven Principles for Making a Marriage Work. It's an old faithful resource. I love the Gottmans. It's actually done by a couple, the Gottmans, you've probably heard of them, who just have devoted their lives to researching married couples and like, what works and what doesn't. And they had this thing called the Love Lab where literally for long periods of time they would watch these couples, they would interview these couples and they. I wanted to find, like, what is the main difference in how these couples communicate that leads to longevity, but not just longevity. That leads to happiness, that leads to just a thriving marriage, you know, and in the day to day, like what day to day works. And they have this concept called a hard startup and a soft startup. Now what's the difference? A hard startup is where instantly, like, let's say, you know, you see your spouse, you guys have both come home from a busy day at work and. And you realize you've got to say something to him, but it's harsh. It's like, did you take out, did you do that today? Oh my gosh, you forgot. You forgot again. I mean, how many times do I have to tell you that you're supposed to be the person doing this task in our house. Or it could look something like, you know, man, just, I've had a day. Don't talk to me right now. I mean, I'll talk to you later, but I've had a day. Like, it's just very much like a harsh startup, okay? That shuts down communication. It's harsh. It's something that says, don't talk to me. It's like, fine. You know, there are responses and startups and conversation that just, they don't start you up to win or your spouse to win. They're just there. It just leads to what they often refer to as flooding. Like a flooding of emotions, that tension that you feel where you're like, I don't have it in me anymore. Like, I've had enough. I've had people barking at me all day long. I don't need to hear from you two. I'm just going to go retreat. I'm going to go over here. You go over here. Fine. I guess one day we'll get to it. You know, it's a harsh startup, but instead we need to have what's called a soft startup where we enter in softly and we use tenderness and we really are Careful with our words. I love. In the Four Laws of Love, another amazing book by the founder of ExoMarriage, Jimmy Evans, he talks about how we need to be careful with each other. And I think sometimes people on the surface are like, well, if I'm careful, does that mean I'm walking on eggshells? Absolutely not. Walking on eggshells is manipulation. He's not talking about that. He's talking about being so caring about your spouse and so kind and so wanting to not offend them, to not be harsh that you're careful. That's what a soft startup is. Instead, you greet your spouse when you see them and say, hey, how was your day today? Or if you notice they look forlorn and they look like it's been a rough day, you say, oh, man, it looks like you had a really rough day. Do you want to talk about it? That's a soft startup, because what are you doing? You're leaving it open to them. It's almost the equivalent of open arms. You know, if you're watching this, I'm literally opening my arms. Whereas a harsh startup is this, you know, a harsh startup is crossing your arms closed posture. It's the same thing.

It says, get away from it.

It says, I'm not a safe place for you, and I don't think you're a safe place for me. Whereas the soft startup uses words where you're using those I statements if you need to share your feelings. But really, it's more that posture of curiosity we've talked about before, where you're open arms, open hands, saying, I'm here, come to me. I'm a safe place. I'm a safe place to land, even on your hard day. Let's talk about it. And you know, it takes practice. But what I love about that book, Seven Principles to Making a Marriage Work or For Making a Marriage Work by John Gottman, it gives you exercises to go through that I'll even tell you it's on, like, page 170 if you want to get it. Page 170, do the exercises. I think it goes on for like, eight pages.

It's.

It's revolutionary. I mean, it's such basic stuff, but it's the most basic communication things that we have the most trouble getting.

Yeah, it's true.

And I'm telling you, though, we have to take the time even if we feel cheesy, even if we feel like, oh, I don't know why I'm doing this. Like, almost like we get like little toddlers. Like, I Don't want to, you know, I mean, but my gosh, if you want your marriage to work, if you want your marriage to get to that next level, if you feel stuck and you're just in that negative spiral of not talking, and then when you do talk, you're just instantly having the harsh startup and then you're flooded with emotions and then it shuts down communication. And maybe you've done that for so long that you're almost bringing on apathy. You have to do something different. And I'm telling you things like this, like being careful with your words, being soft and tender with each other and just trying to get the best out of each other and being willing to take the time to do that. And it's like grease in the wheels of your marriage that feels really off kilter right now and stuck. And so we have to be willing to do things differently.

Yeah. And I love that challenge to go back to the basics.

Yes, yes.

Because in everything in life, that's really where it starts. Let me challenge you guys for a second because I think, we think I'm not going to do that. Just basic stuff like I'm in kindergarten. But yet the athletes that we follow, the world class athletes in, in whatever sport, basketball, baseball, football, golf, like all of those guys that are the elite in their field, they're over and over practicing the basics. You know, those NBA stars are still shooting free throws in practice. You know, they're still, they're still doing it. They're still practicing dribbling, they're still doing those things they've done all their life that is so easy for them. And yet they know they can get better. And they know that getting rusty in those areas is going to throw off their whole game. And so if the basics get off in any sport or in any part of life, then everything starts crumbling around it. It's foundational. And so the foundation of your communication are those basic things.

Well, and just. And I am not a sports aficionado by any stretch, but I was a dancer, so I get kind of the training aspect of things. And I know when I was dancing for many years, okay, our instructor, just like with athletes, she focused so much on stretching, she focused on form. Because what happens when you don't stretch, when you don't have the proper form, whether in dance or in any kind of sport, you get injured and then you're out of the game and then you're out of the performance. Like, we gotta get in the game.

Cause it's not exciting to stretch. No you're like, no, this is basic. I'm ready to get out there and play. But it's like, if you don't do that preparatory work, you're setting yourself up for injury. And communication is the same.

And what do we do when we're injured? We're hurt, and so we're hard to get along with, Right. And then we're both kind of limping through life, you know, so to speak, in our hearts and our minds. And so we want to build the muscle of communication, and that takes practice, you guys.

Well, let's talk about what some of those basics are, because we've been seeing basics getting back to basics, and people might be thinking, well, what exactly is that? What are those foundational things that. That we should start with?

Well, I think, Professor Willis, that you should start. Professor of communication.

Willis, stroke my fake beard here.

Hey, if you guys are watching online, you may notice that Dave has more hair than usual. He's growing out what I call his professor hair. And I am looking, and I am alikin.

It's part of my midlife crisis.

I love it.

It was this or a motorcycle, and I couldn't afford a motorcycle, so I thought, I'll just.

Well, you did try a beard. It didn't quite work. And your chin's way too handsome to cover up anyway, so the hair is.

You don't have good facial hair. I wish I did. I'm so envious of you guys that have these amazing, luscious beards.

I know. You really are like. You're like.

Mine's patchy and splotchy, and it looks.

Like you did give it a good go, though, sweetie. We even tried the beard oil and stuff. But the hair you have, amazing.

It looks like I've waxed part of my face, but not all of it. It's a strange look.

So, Professor Dave, right?

Yes. Back to communication. I would say some of the basics are. Am I making eye contact with my spouse?

Yes.

Am I. Or I'm just. Am I staring at my phone and giving them some leftover energy? So put the phone down. That's basic. Step number one, put the phone away. Just this alone, guys. You could change the communication. I'm gonna put my phone down when I'm talking to my spouse. When my spouse walks into the room and sits down, I'm gonna. I'm gonna put the phone down right. Then look him in the eye. First thing I'm gonna do right there, you got a massive head start.

Huge.

Looking them in the eye.

Don't underestimate this, you guys.

Two, I'm gonna, I'm going to. Unless it's like a really serious topic, I'm gonna smile when I start talking to my spouse because I want them to see on my face that I'm happy to see them. And, you know, when you smile, naturally the tone of your voice becomes more warm as well. That's why even people at like call centers are trained to smile while they're on the phone, even though the other person can't see them. It's because you can hear the smile. You can hear it in the voice, and your spouse can hear your smile and they can see it as well. So smile, give eye contact, be a good listener, ask questions, and then actually listen to the response instead of cutting them off or assuming you know what they're going to say. Be warm in your tone. Like, really think about. Is the tone that I'm using, Is it one where I'm, I'm natural and where I'm being warm and inviting? Or is it, is it harsh? Is it, is it cold? Is it indifferent?

Yeah.

Think about your tone.

Big body language.

Yeah, body language. Yeah. And I want to, I want to be fluent in your body language.

You are.

You know, I'll turn anything into a sex episode. I know, but body language is huge. Most communication is non verbal. Now, that doesn't mean you can say, well, that means we're communicating even though we're not talking. No, you got to talk too. But tone of your voice, the language, the posture of your body, is it open or is it closed towards your spouse? You know, just think about what your body's communicating. And yeah, I mean, those are, those are very basic. Those are very basic. Anybody can do that. You don't need a, a PhD to do any of that. You start there and I promise it'll make a bigger difference in your thinking. And that might seem too basic, but guys, it's the basics that make or break us.

It totally is. It's so good. I would say. I remember years ago there was something that you did not. Sometimes we have to point out in a loving way again. And I know if there's been a long period of time where you're not talking, this would be something that you would do later on to keep the healthy communication going is being, you know, having that safe space where you can, you can lovingly point out maybe when you all are slipping. First look at yourself, though. I would say, like, first look at yourself. Like, I think we're really quick to like, think we're Doing it all right? And we're picking out, you know, just like the Bible says. We're. You know, you have a log in your eye, but you're getting a speck of dust out of their eyes. So we need to look at ourselves first and really, you know, have the Lord search our hearts. But there are gonna be times where your spouse may be doing something. And again, maybe not just one time, but maybe you're seeing a pattern, and they may not even realize it. And I remember, I don't even know what year of marriage this was, but we would be on a date night, and we'd be talking, and you would start out really looking me in the eye and really engaging and all those things. But then I would see you look off, like you'd be lost in space, you know, because Dave is so brilliant. Like, he always has ideas going on in his mind about all kinds of amazing things. Like, he's just brilliant, and I love that about him.

But I remember it's a really polite way of saying I'm easily distracted.

Well, but it wasn't. Sometimes it would be something I said.

It would spark this thought.

You'd spark a thought, and I would.

Be like, down this rabbit hole. And you'd be like, dave, where are you?

I would say, come back to me.

Come back to me.

Because I. And I remember when I first addressed it, I wasn't like, you know, you are so rude to me. And, you know, I wanted to make sure I didn't want to do a harsh startup. Like, you're so rude to me. You're always looking off in space. I mean, what is it like? Am I boring? Like, what is it like? What is it about me that you can't just give me your attention? Like, it wasn't. Because that would shut you down. I mean, that would completely shut you down. And I would feel bad afterwards, too. That wouldn't get us anywhere. But I remember I was like, how can I let Dave know about this in, like, a kind way? And sometimes even with a sense of humor where it will get the point across. But also, you know, be kind to him, because I'm assuming the best of you. I want to assume that he's just. He's just getting caught away with an idea or whatever. Sometimes, you guys, I would literally see himself, like, playing out a conversation in his mind and having responses to it through his facial expressions. And I'd be like, what'd the other person say? Because that was funny, you know? But what I ended up landing on was I told you about it. Loving. Like, listen, I know you probably don't realize it, but I think you're getting going and I feel like I'm losing you. So the phrase I would use was, come back to me. And every now and then, I mean, you don't do it. You're really aware of it now. I mean, gosh, we've been married 23 years. But every now and then I'll see it and I'll be like, hey, sweetie, come back to me. And you're like, oh. You know, and then I honestly, I'm usually amused by what he has to say. I'm like, was that an SNL skit that you think should happen? Was it a conversation? Was it a new blog post you wanna write? Was it a new episode?

Here's the idea.

What is it? Is this gonna happen in a sermon? Like, what is this?

You know, I thought up a new naked marriage podcast topic.

That's right. I mean, sometimes it is sometimes. Or it'll remind you of something that happened that you hadn't shared with me yet, that you're like, oh, I forgot to tell you about this story or whatever. So I'm amused by it now. But back then I wasn't like, back then I felt a little hurt because I was for a time a stay at home mom. And if I was out with you, I mean, I'm just soaking up the adult conversation. And so it was like, please give me your best attention because I just need that. I'm so needing to connect with you. And thank goodness you took me seriously. And you still do. And you do come back to me. And so sometimes it's just kind of reminding your spouse, like, hey, let's come back.

You know, so just believing the best in each other, that warm versus harsh startup, that's huge. You guys take one thing away. Just start there. Because usually when there's a lack of communication, one or both of you are probably in that habit, whether you mean to be or not, of having a hard startup.

Definitely.

And then that shuts down communication. So just say, you know, I'm going to commit to being a soft startup.

Yeah.

Even if, even if it's met with kind of resistance, even if their startup remains hard, keep being soft. I'm going to keep being a soft place to land.

Yes.

And eventually, hopefully through my example and my consistency, it will help them to be a little softer.

And I want to say this too, if they're being outrightly just cruel to you, clearly set a boundary. But you can still do it in A respectful way, because when you try to match someone who's really mad and you match their intensity, literally, it's just like, it keeps on. The intensity goes higher and higher and higher. So you don't want to match their intensity instead. I mean, even. I used to teach years ago. I was a middle school teacher. And I remember in behavior modification, they were like, if a kid's losing it, you know, as a teacher, we want to lose it. And be like. I said, be quiet. You know, And I certainly had moments like that as a teacher, as a new teacher back in those days. But I remember when I would be softer, and I'd be like, all eyes, all eyes on me right now. Come back to me, students. Or, you know, like. And I said it, like, in a normal voice. All of a sudden, they'd be like, oh, where am I? Oh, my gosh, she's talking soft. And they would take me more seriously talking softer than if I were to yell. If I was yelling, Tune them right out. You know what I'm saying? And in the same way, even more so in our marriage, we don't need to just up the intensity every time we talk. I mean, we get flooded with those emotions to where we can't even think straight. We start spewing word vomit, and then we've both lost. We've both lost. And even if one of us feels like we're losing, we've both lost. I mean, we talk about that all the time. We either win together or lose together. And how we win together is choosing to be tender with each other, to speak the truth in love, and to really commit to trying to get this communication piece right.

Man, that's so good, guys. I hope this has been encouraging to you. I hope it sparked some new conversations between you and your spouse. I mean, all of our episodes are designed to do that is just to be a conversation starter and give you some new tools in your tool belt to be able to build the marriage that both of you want. And so keep working at it, guys. It's effort. Don't believe the myth that marriage takes no work or that if you marry the right quote, right person, you'd never disagree. You'd never have to work at it. That's simply not true. Marriage takes work, but it's well worth the effort. And so let your spouse know that they are worth your effort. They're worth your words, they're worth your pursuing, your listening and the best that you have to offer. And for more tools to help you build a stronger marriage, check out Our Ministries website, xomarriage.com we're part of a much bigger team that has a whole lot of great stuff out there. And collectively, we're doing all this to help you, and I hope it's a benefit to you. So help us by helping spread the word. You can share this episode on social media. Let somebody know about it, because I promise people in your life could benefit from this conversation, too. Thanks again for tuning in. We'll see you next time.