Purity Culture

Hello, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we undress the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And we are coming to you from South Lake, Texas, the marriage capital of the world, here at XO Marriage headquarters. And we are so excited about today's episode. But before we dive in and it's a very important topic, Dave is going to share a review with you today.

Yes. And thank you guys for leaving these reviews. We actually read all of them, and we really appreciate you taking the time to leave these. So this one is from Tinama. Eight. Five stars. She says, naked review. I like it. And she says, amazing podcast. Love the transparency. And speaking on some taboo topics really has helped me in my marriage and some things that I've been battling alone and gave me hope and passion for my marriage again. And wow, Tina, knowing that God used this podcast, it's not a partcast, I guess a podcast to spark some renewed energy and hope in your life and your faith and in your marriage, man, that just. That makes our day to know that. And speaking of those taboo topics, we've been in a new series where we're just tackling all the taboo topics related to sex. And it's inspired from an upcoming book that we've got coming out called the Counterfeit Club Climax. And we are super excited about this book. You're going to hear us talking about it a lot, because I believe that the message of this book could help you and your spouse work through any issue of sexual baggage. You might have, have some of the most intimate conversations you have, you might you've ever had, and then most importantly, have the best sex life together that you've ever beyond what you thought possible. And so one of the taboo topics, though, that we kind of touch on in the book and we want to talk about in today's episode, is the issue of purity culture. And if you grew up in the evangelical world, you probably heard that term, but if you haven't, we're going to dive into what that means. But there's a lot being talked about it now.

There is. So let's dive in.

Purity culture it is. Maybe you're not familiar with that term. If you grew up in the evangelical world, especially around 20 years ago, maybe even a little bit beyond that. It was all the rage. I know when Ashley and I were both coming up in youth group kind of in the mid to late 90s, it was the big thing. There was a book out called I Kissed Aiding Goodbye by a guy named Joshua Harris, who since has kind of made news by coming radically full circle in the wrong direction in his faith journey to go from being one of the most prominent voices in the evangelical world to now not even identifying as a Christian, sadly. But that book and other books and other resources were kind of all coming together at a time when many of us were coming of age to form what is now known as purity culture. And while I think most the intentions were good, the intentions overall were to keep kids from having sex outside of marriage and to value the gift of sex and to elevate it as the God given sacred gift that it is, and not to fall into kind of the culture's traps of casual sex or just over sexualizing things. And it was intended to help kids stay pure. But I think some of the unintended consequences of it now, looking back in retrospect and some of the folks who've had baggage coming from some of those traditions, and this is part of what we talk about in our upcoming book, the Counterfeit Climax, because it is part of the baggage that a lot of people carry is feeling body image issues, shame issues, feeling just a distorted view of sex. Because sex itself sometimes was a casualty in the purity culture, where it wasn't talked about as this beautiful gift that could be enjoyed for marriage, but it was sort of this shameful, dirty thing that you can't do, but all of a sudden when you're married you can do it. So kids got this backwards message that sex is bad and sex is dirty and sex is shameful, so save it for the one you love, you know? And it's like once they got married, all of a sudden they had to flip a switch and have sex and, and then they had a hard time flipping that switch or, and then they couldn't enjoy it, or they couldn't enjoy letting themselves go and the freedom they had. Or maybe they messed up and they fell short of that standard they'd set for themselves and they ended up being sexually active before marriage. And, and then the shame and the weight of that made them feel like, well, now I'm never going to be able to, even though now I'm married and I have an otherwise good marriage, but I have all this shame still and baggage and my marriage will never be good because of these mistakes I made. And so there are all different kinds of forms of baggage that come from this. And even if you've never even heard the term purity culture, there's a good chance that you or your spouse or both have some of the baggage that Comes. Comes from the mindsets that were prevalent because of it.

Absolutely. And just to give more perspective as to what we're talking about, you may. Even if you weren't raised in the church, you probably had friends who maybe got a promise ring that was from their dad, and they maybe went to, like, a promise ring ball where this was essentially saying, like, dad holds my heart until I marry. And it also is kind of a true love waits was something that was very popular where some people, their promise ring would. Would say, true love waits on it. And meaning, like, they're going to save themselves for their husband. And, you know, in purity culture, too, there was a lot on, you know, women and where I've heard and there's been a lot of podcasts lately, this is really. People are pulling back the layers on this because, you know, now all of us are, you know, I'm 40, Dave's 42. A lot of us, you know, have kids of our own. And I think our generation that was affected by this is pulling back the layers, pulling back the curtain and saying, okay, what if this was good? That we wanna repeat with our children?

Yeah.

Cause a lot of it was. A lot of that message is good.

Yes, absolutely. But what if this went too far? What if this sent the wrong message, too? Because I know for me, as a woman in this, and I grew up in an awesome youth group, like, I am so grateful for my youth pastor and my leaders, and I feel like they were on the healthier end of purity culture, but it was still purity culture. And I know, again, I just wanna reiterate what Dave said. I know it came from a place of, like, we wanna save these kids from having multiple sexual partners and the baggage that comes with that and having maybe unplanned pregnancies or STDs, you know, all the things that can happen when you're having casual sex. And not to mention the emotional baggage. I mean, I know it came from a place of wanting to protect us. And also, it's biblical, you know. It's biblical.

Yeah. It's God's plan for sex, which is what they were trying to lift up. And that's still a good thing. That never goes out of style.

Absolutely. But as a woman, I just remember in purity culture, there was so much put on the woman. Like, you are the complete, complete gatekeeper of whether or not you're having sex, because you're the one who kind of invites it or not just by existing. You are an object of every man.

Is going to lust and. Right. You've got to cover yourself in burlap.

And no, seriously, it was very much like, modest is hottest. Was a term that was used a lot. And. And you guys, I'm. I'm all for modesty, so we're not knocking all this, but I think a lot of times it would go too far. And it. What. What it did is create a lot of shame for a lot of women and for a lot of different reasons. Shame just in being, you know, having a body that is, you know, men are very visual, but women are visual, too. But, you know, men are very visual. And that was constantly harped on, like, they're visual. And you're a harlot if you. Biblical term. You're a harlot if you.

I haven't heard that one in a while, Harley. We need to bring that back.

I know.

And hussy is another one.

Hussy. Oh, they're terrible. Don't say those words. They're so. They're so hurtful. But, you know, like, you're just. You know, you're just asking for it. Almost like you're just asking for it, and you're causing men to sin. You, woman, Jasmine, with your sexual body, are causing men to sin. And so it was very confusing because here, like, and Dave and I waited for marriage. We weren't perfect, but we waited and saved each other, you know, ourselves for each other. And we didn't save each other. I didn't make sense there. Saved ourselves for each other with, you know, through God. God helping us along the way. But I will tell you, and I've shared this before on the podcast, coming into marriage, and all of a sudden, it's like, I've told my body, I've told my mind, no, no, no, no. Sex is bad. Sex is bad for my whole life. I got married when I was 20. And yes, I know that's young, but I constantly. It was like, feeling like I'm on guard all the time, like, can't do this, can't do this. This is the thing I don't do. This is the thing I don't do. It's almost like part of my identity. And all of a sudden, I get married, and it's like, okay, become a sexual goddess. Here's your opportunity. And you're not a good wife if you're not a sexual goddess right away, and you better enjoy it. And if you don't enjoy it, there's something wrong with you. And just all this shame. And I'm telling you, you know, Satan works on both Ends of this. Like he. And we hear from so many of you where we, you know, you came either with sexual baggage, where you were maybe were promiscuous and. Or maybe maybe you weren't promiscuous, but you had a, you know, boyfriend, a girlfriend, and you did have sex, and you. And you just regret that. You regret, you know, that maybe you married that person, but you regret that you didn't wait for marriage. Or maybe you did wait and you were like me, and you had all these kind of weird mixed messages, and your brain had a hard time coping with that, you know. You know, Satan would love nothing more than to just make us all feel like no matter what your damaged goods, you're never gonna truly enjoy sex as it was designed by God. You know, sex is really my game. And so, you know, now that you're married, it's gonna be really boring, and it's not even gonna be awesome. You know, I think we just have all these mixed messages, and the enemy would love for us to stay there. And that's why we wrote this book, Counterfeit Climax. Because, you know, Satan is counterfeiting sex. He did not design sex. He's trying to convince us that he did. But really, sex is from God. It is a gift from God, specifically made for marriage, specifically made for procreation and pleasure. And he wants us to connect in a way that no two human beings can. I mean, it's meant to be this. This connection where it's a culmination, it's a climax that is. It is mental, it is physical, it is spiritual, it is emotional, and it's the culmination of love that you have for this person that you've pledged your life to. And that's what sex is supposed to be. It's supposed to be awesome. But I think that, you know, we still are. We have an enemy that would love to just convince us otherwise. And it causes a lot of marital problems when we don't work through these issues.

Yes. And then we don't know how to talk about it. Because sometimes even the way we were raised to talk about sex was a little bit dysfunctional. And we just, again, talked about it only in a negative light or we just didn't talk about it at all. We didn't so, like to be able to talk about, you know, what we want, our desires, what feels good, what doesn't feel good, our hurts, our baggage, our insecurities, our hangups. To be able to openly and with vulnerability talk about that in marriage is so important. That's why, in fact, in the upcoming book that we keep talking about, because, you know, we're all this fall, we're going to be talking about themes from the Counterfeit Climax, and we just so believe in the message of it. But one aspect of the book is that there's a whole conversation guide with questions specifically about sex for you and your spouse to ask each other. And for most couples, this is going to be the most intimate conversation you've ever had with one another as it relates to sex. And we want couples to have these conversations, and most couples aren't having these conversations. But, gosh, there's so many forms of baggage that we can bring into marriage. And I think when we think about sexual baggage, we think only in terms of things that I did or things that my spouse did. And, you know, we're going to have upcoming episodes about, like, dealing with sexual past and dealing with my spouse's sexual past. But some of the baggage comes from mindset, and that's really what we're talking about today with this focus on purity culture is the mind is the most powerful sex organ that you have. And most of the sexual baggage we have, it starts in the mind, you know, and for me, through purity culture, I kind of would escape some into pornography, which I've talked about a lot. But I think part of what made that so alluring is because I felt like we couldn't really talk about sex in a healthy way or get real questions answered about it. And so I went, I think, at first just out of curiosity, for instructional purposes of like, well, I don't even know. I'm afraid I'm going to get to this place where I'm married, I'm having sex. I'm not even going to know what to do or what it's supposed to look like. And of course, that lie of Satan led me into the ultimate form of counterfeit love and pornography. But then that created baggage because then through kind of combined with purity culture, I thought, okay, well, once I get married, then my marriage is going to look like these images I've seen where it's essentially just whatever you can imagine on demand, whenever, whenever you want it. And that's going to be like your reward for not having intercourse before you get married is like, once you get married, it's just going to be like a free for all. And that's not what marriage looks like, you know, that's not reality. So I was putting all this, like, completely irrational pressure, I think, on Ashley to somehow fulfill, like, a lifetime of sexual Fantasy. And she was feeling all this pressure because she was trying to flip this switch from being someone who had only been taught about sex in a negative light and had just shut off that whole part of her brain, essentially, as a way to stay pure. And I so applaud her for the fact that she did stay so true to her beliefs. But in doing so, she also, by her own account, had to just kind of numb or turn off, like, the whole sexual part of her being in mind. And then when she got married and was allowed to flip that on and encouraged to flip that on, it was a hard transition for her. And, like, with me, like, I was just rearing to go, like, finally. And it created so much pressure and tension, and it created. And even though, you know, wedding night was beautiful and honeymoon was beautiful, but it created. In those early months and even early years of marriage, there was a lot of just miscommunication and there was mutual frustration. And then, you know, there were just kind of periods through there, if I'm remembering correctly, where, like, just sex wasn't happening very much at all for a number of reasons. And we were just kind of growing apart and in frustration with each other and not knowing how to deal with it because we'd never been equipped to know how to talk about it. And this was before. This was back in the olden days, before podcasts even existed. Like, we didn't even have research.

I loved a podcast.

Yeah, I would have loved it, too. And so the stuff we're talking about now, it's a lot of it, is the stuff we wish someone would have told us, and that is that help's available, guys, and that God wants you to have an amazing sex life. And whatever baggage you might have, whatever baggage you might have brought into the marriage, like, you're a new creation in Christ, and He wants to set you free of whatever shame you're carrying and replace it with the goodness and the joy and the intimacy and the oneness that sex was meant to have. And so whatever else you've learned about sex, the good, the bad, and the ugly, just focus in instead on the fact that God loves you. He wants your sex life within marriage to be awesome. And his grace is bigger than your biggest regret, your biggest baggage, your biggest insecurity. And if you'll allow him to, and if you'll really communicate it with your spouse, and you'll be a safe place for one another and commit to making your marriage bed the safest place on earth for you both, then your sex life can be amazing. And you don't have to settle for just barely getting by. Like, it can truly be amazing.

The Burlington Coat event is back. Buy a coat now through November 29th. And get $5 off your merchandise purchase of 25 or more from December 6th through December 24th. Plus, Burlington is donating 50,000 new coats to help those in need nationwide. Through our partnership with Delivering Good, we've been keeping you warm for over 50 years. We'll see you at our coat event, Burlington Deals brands.

Wow.

Visit burlington.com coats for details.

Absolutely. And I just want to say, too, I want to touch again on a subject you kind of brought up. I think that in purity culture, for a lot of us who grew up in that, in our youth groups and maybe just in our homes, I mean, maybe your youth group, it wasn't ever even talked about, but maybe in your home, it was kind of a purity culture home. I think that we have this belief, this really. I think it's on a subconscious level of if I don't do these certain things, then my reward will be, you know, this amazing, perfect marriage.

This unspoken deal with God.

Yes, it's an unspoken deal with God. Right. And then I'm never gonna have an issue with sex. Like, I'm gonna have an orgasm right away. My spouse is gonna find me desirable all the time. I'm gonna feel the same way about them. Like, we're literally just. It's gonna be perfect, and we're never gonna have to even discuss it because we waited for each other. We waited for the right person. We did all these things that God asked us to do. And so this is how God works. We're going to have this perfect thing. And I do think this is an unspoken, subconscious thing that many of us who are raised in the impurity culture kind of believed. And it's a bubble that is burst. So right away, because we're all imperfect human beings, and our bodies don't always respond right away. I remember we had some friends share with us that. And they grew up in this purity culture, saved, you know, waited for each other, save themselves from marriage. And anyway, they end up on their wedding night, and I don't think they could actually have intercourse because it was just so painful for her. And it turned out she had something called vaginismus, which is a disorder where, you know, I'm not a doctor, but essentially there's a lot of pain involved when it comes to sex to the point where you can't even really have intercourse.

And nobody talks about this.

No one had talked about it.

We have a whole episode from. With a physical therapist who specializes in what's called the pelvic floor, which is the cluster of muscles kind of at the base of what becomes, you know, what supports the genitalia. And for most women who suffer from vaginismus, which is pain during intercourse, it's because of that muscle cluster and it's totally treatable, but yet, because it's not talked about, these women feel like there's something wrong with me, I'm defective, I'm incapable of having sex or pleasing my husband.

Well, she felt such shame with it. And she was like, maybe we weren't like, good enough. And because we did mess around a little, like maybe it wasn't good enough. We should have only kissed or not kissed or all these things, like all these stipulations we put on ourselves. And, and it was just like she said. And then I think it turned to being angry with God. I mean, she said, because she was like, well, no, we did wait. And now you're into the bargain.

Like, I. It was the deal.

They were not able to have sex for the first two years of their marriage.

Oh my gosh.

And it really. I mean, she talks very openly about it now, but it's. You could just her just, you know, talking about that time. It was such a painful time for them to the point where they weren't even sure if their marriage was going to make it. And I think that he kind of resented her for having this at first, not understanding that she couldn't help it. I think he thought it was just anxiety driven because she had had again those negative associations with sex. But I'm here to tell you they've been married almost as long as we've been married. And they have a wonderful, thriving marriage. And sex is not an issue anymore. So you can get through these things. But we want to be this, this open and honest place for you to talk about these things. Maybe that's you. Maybe that every time you have intercourse it's just painful and you feel like it's just never. You're never going to get past that. And we're here to tell you, you just got to be honest with your spouse first and foremost. But you also talk to your doctor. Like, talk to them, tell them what's going on. There's most likely something they can do to make it less painful or to help you. And the important thing here is just not kind of resigning yourself to just this thought of like, well, this is just how it is, you know, I Guess I wasn't good enough. And so God's not gonna reward us with a good sex life. And guess this is just our cross to bear. That's just not how it is, and that's not how God works, you know? And I think that we just need to be aware of these preconceived notions that we have and talk to each other about it. Like, I know for Dave and I coming through, you know, this early years of marriage, like you said, sex was pretty awkward for a while, and we.

Had to really is probably the best word.

It just was awkward. And also the whole, like, position thing, I. I really. I mean, I barely was talked to about sex. And when I was. It was. It was pretty negative. And so the thought of positions, I had no idea. I didn't. And I also thought, are there bad ones? Like, are there some that are off limits?

Right?

And, like, I didn't know anything.

And I. All I'd learned was from, like, the wrong source. It was like, the. The false fantasies of pornography. And so neither of us were really equipped to have healthy conversation of, like, what our sex life should even look like. And so, again, that's why we wrote this book, the Counterfeit Climax. I really hope that it helps couples have conversations I wish we would have been equipped to have back then. I'm so thankful that God and his grace carried us through all that. And now we're in a place where we're able to encourage others to have those conversations. And so be watching for that book and continue to subscribe to the Naked Marriage podcast. All this season, we're going to be continuing to talk about these important issues, and we hope you stay tuned in. But at this point in the podcast, it's time for the question Q and A time. Thank you for the questions you guys send in@nakedmarriagepodcast.com those are the ones we read on the air, but you can also find us and send us questions on Instagram, Ave and Ashley Willis or on Facebook if you just search marriage. And we will do our best to answer. Sweetie, would you like to.

Sure, I'll read it.

Read this one for us.

All right. It says, we have been together since we were 15, got married at 18, and have now been married for 24 years. And that's amazing. 24 years. Awesome. It says, after being together so long, how do we reconnect and continue staying best friends? What are some good ways to spark new conversations to bring us even deeper into our relationship? I find that we assume we already know everything. About each other and, and just get lost in the routine day to day stuff and lose connection at times. I think this is an awesome question.

Yeah, thank you. This is really good one. And I think every couple that is married for any length of time will eventually fall into seasons where if you're, you know, all of us can get on autopilot, where you just look up and realize, hey, we're really just in a routine right now. More than intentionally connecting, everybody will fall into that at some times. And you just having the foresight to say, I don't want to be there. Like, I'm glad that there's not a crisis happening. I mean, I'm glad that we're not having an affair or something like that. But at the same time, I don't want to settle for just feeling like we know everything about each other and just the same day in, day out routine until we die. That's not what I signed up for. And so Ashley recently on our Instagram page, and this was totally unplanned because we don't even see these questions, but she just posted this. So God in his sovereignty knew that you were going to write this. And she's got four or five things. Yeah, five ways to reconnect with your spouse. You can see this list at Dave and AshleyWillis on Instagram. So, sweetie, why don't you just reach. I think that all of these are very relevant in your situation. But for all of us in every season of marriage, I think these are really, really practical.

Absolutely. So number one, and these are in no particular order, number one, talk about what's on your mind with your spouse and then listen well too. And you know, this may sound like super simple, like, well, of course talk, but really, I think, you know, the longer we're married, we can get stuck talking about the same old things. You know, we have shop talk is what I refer to it as, like bills and kids and schedules. And so you need to kind of really think about, like, when was the last time that we had what I like to refer to as a heart to heart. But I once had a husband write me and say, listen. I would literally never use that term. So maybe it's like a woman term, I don't know. But it makes me excited. Men. Maybe it makes you terrified. I guess you could say honest conversation. So have a time where you're just really sharing what's on your heart and what's on your mind. And you're saying like, we'll call it.

A sexy talk for your sexy There you go. Because you can tell him, like, when you open up to me, it is so sexy. And he will open up. All of a sudden he's like, when you say, what are you thinking about, honey? Nothing. I want to have a heart to heart. That sounds scary.

That sounds weird.

But when you say, let's have a sexy talk, well, I'm in for that. And just say, well, sexy to me is just honesty. Honesty. Just tell me what you're thinking.

That's right.

And that makes me feel so attracted to you.

And it makes you feel close. Because really, conversation is the first step to reconnection. And that's also the first step to intimacy, because you feel intimate when you feel close to each other through conversation. I remember we were actually doing a talk with some friends of ours who were pastors at a church in Houston recently, and we were talking to some couples about marriage in their marriage group. And they shared that there had been something that had been on his mind, this pastor's mind for a long time that he had never shared with her. And he was kind of afraid to because it was kind of this deep, dark thing. And it was like from his childhood. And so one day he said, I just really feel like God wants me to tell you this. I don't know why I've never told you this. And so he shared this thing with her. And she said. And these were her words. She said, that is literally the sexiest thing you've ever said to me. And he goes, what? And she said, it is. So how you trust me enough to tell me this thing from your past and to trust me with that? And I think that goes to.

And then he was like, what else can I tell what else?

I want to share it all.

I'm telling Jeffrey, when I was in second grade this one time, I got scared. I mean, like. And all of a sudden you think you know everything, but you don't. New things will come out and new feelings will come out. Because in every season of marriage, you know, we're changing. And so even that person, you feel like you know, completely, you know, they're changing, you're changing. There's always something new to discover. And so have that mindset of, let's keep discovering about each other.

Absolutely. That brings us to number two. Try something new and have fun together. Have fun. Don't underestimate fun. It's so easy to get caught in the mundane. So do something new. You know, just try something new. Go to a. Like, you know, go to a concert or go. Go have lessons like, go learn how to cook something together. Go something. Go dance.

If you're stuck in the routine.

Yeah.

Do something that's gonna break you out of the routine.

Exactly.

And it could be anything. Maybe you pick something that you want to do, and he picks something he wants to do.

I love it.

And, you know, and do them both. Number three, be cautious and avoid sharing your heart with opposite sex, co workers, neighbors, et cetera. So when we fall into this. This kind of autopilot, it's so easy to feel like I'm so longing for attention and for someone to just not look at me with boredom, but to look at me and just to, you know, make me feel sexy again. That we're really vulnerable and susceptible to falling into some potentially inappropriate relationships in an attempt to find attention that should be coming from ourselves and connection. So we've just got to really safeguard ourselves from that and be aware.

Yes.

Number four, Pray together every day. Prayer is one of the most intimate acts a couple can share.

Yes, it is. And I know we talked a lot on this podcast about how to do that. And the main thing is don't complicate it. Start small. You don't have to have perfect words. You're just talking to your dad, your creator. And when you pray together, it really softens your hearts towards each other because you're humbling yourselves before God, but you're also humbling yourselves, you know, toward to each other. And it's. It's a beautiful place to just begin to grow spiritually together. All right, last one. Number five. It says, be patient with each other. My goodness. You know, and I put here, reconnecting takes time, but it's worth it. I think when we're going through a pattern of feeling a little bit of disconnect, we think that, you know, okay, we just need to fix this. We need to find the quick fix. But the truth is, you probably felt, you know, you probably grew apart a little bit over time. So it's going to take time to grow back together and to reconnect, and that's okay. And enjoy the process along the way and discover new things. And you'll find a lot of times once we do, you know, go through this process of reconnection, we can get even closer than we were before. It's not just like we're trying to go back to how it was. You can actually go get even closer together.

Yeah. And that's the goal, is to keep growing closer, to not only get to where you were before, but to get.

Beyond that go deeper.

And we hope that you'll just continue on the journey to get there. If you feel like it would help you to talk to somebody, a counselor or a mediator to help you take those steps and to help you talking about trying something new, counseling might be that very thing. We've got a team here@xomarriage.com help that would be thrilled to talk with you and help walk with you through that and a bunch of other great resources and live events that could help spark some of those new ideas@xomarriage.com so check that out as a next step. Thanks again for your question. Thank you for listening today. We'll look forward to seeing you all again next week.