Spouse = Best Friend

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Hey, guys.

Welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast we Undress the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love.

And we are so excited about this episode. Before we dive in, quick announcement and that is that our book, the Naked Marriage, which many of you have read and left reviews on Amazon and sent us great feedback about. Thank you for that, by the way. It's now available as an audiobook. So if you enjoy listening to this podcast, I think you're really going to enjoy the audiobook. Ashley and I had a blast narrating it so you can get the Naked Marriage on Audible, which is part of Amazon, on itunes and everywhere audiobooks are sold. So I hope you guys enjoy that. Today's podcast, we're going to be interviewing some heroes of mine, Mark and Grace Driscoll. Mark Driscoll's one of the bestselling Christian authors of our generation. Together they have a book called Real Marriage. The Truth About Sex, Friendship and Life. Together, they're the founders of Trinity church in Scottsdale, Arizona. They have just some fascinating WIs. Marriage, parenthood, ministry, life. We're gonna have a ball. Before we jump into the interview though, we wanna give a quick shout out to those of you who've been giving shout outs to us. Because when you leave a review on itunes or Spotify, wherever you're listening, it helps people discover the podcast. And we're so thankful for your positive feedback. Ashley's gonna share a few of the recent reviews now.

Yes.

Thank you guys so much. This One is from Ashley515. She says, I absolutely love listening to these two. They are not only hilarious, but they have this marriage thing figured out. I first saw them at the XO Marriage Conference 2019 simulcast at my church and I've been hooked since they give great advice. I encourage you to read their book the Naked Marriage as well. Thanks, Dave and Ashley. And then Chris Bird 3 says, Listening to this podcast is one of the best things you can do for your marriage. Thank y' all so much for your input. It really helps get the word out. So Keep on leaving those reviews. We appreciate it.

Yeah.

Thanks again, guys. So let's dive into today's interview. We are so honored to be here in the studio today with Mark and Grace Driscoll. This is about the most you're going to hear me talk on this podcast right here at the front end, because I want to turn it over. One to my beautiful, wise bride and to our guests. But I just want to say thank you guys for your ministry. Publicly. I can. This isn't just me kissing up. This is. This is the truth. Like, there are few couples. And even though today's the first day I've actually met you guys in person, there are very few couples that have impacted our ministry, I would say, in our life as much as you guys have from a distance, just reading, reading your books, watching your sermons. You know, there was a stretch there. I was just reading everything you were putting out. You were like, my seminary. And I've learned so much from you guys. Just think, believe you're the real deal. And it's an honor that you guys made time for us today and can't wait to dive into this conversation. So thank you for being here.

Oh, it's an honor to be here. Thank you guys. Yes.

And we're so excited about the topic today. We're going to talk about friendship and marriage. And we just truly believe. And we know you guys believe this, too. The best marriages are those that are best friends. And if there's not friendship in your marriage, you know, you're really missing out and you're not gonna have the kind of marriage that God, you know, wants you to have. And so we wanna hear from you guys and what you have to say about that.

And to tee it up for you, I can't remember if this was a talk you gave or if this was in your book, but there was a story about the day your youngest kid went off to school and that moment where you two are in the house by yourself. And Grace, I think it was you that said to Mark, it's a good thing we're friends.

Yeah.

And that really resonated with me. So take us back to that moment and just kind of unpack what friendship looks like and what it means in your marriage.

Well, we started off as friends. We met at 17, age 17 in high school, and so just enjoyed hanging out, being together. I say crazy things. Grace has a big laugh. And so I thought, well, there's a potential future here for us both. And we've worked together. And then we got married. And what happens I think when you're first getting to know each other, it's fun, it's memories, it's buddies, it's adventures. And then you get married, and then it's groceries and laundry and, you know, kids and diapers and diapers and teething. And all of a sudden we like to say there's shoulder to shoulder, face to face, and back to back marriages. And, you know, the back to back is where you're fighting. You just sort of turn your back on each other. A lot of life forces you into shoulder to shoulder tasks, work, responsibilities, kids. And you've got to do the shoulder to shoulder, but you've got to make that pivot to face to face. And I think early on in our marriage, we did shoulder to shoulder really, really well. We got a lot done.

We mastered that.

We mastered that. Yeah. But we didn't get as much face to face, which is the Bible's language for friendship. And so that really was a deep conviction of ours because as we started having the kids, you have more and more excusable reasons not to work on your friendship. And what happens is the kids try to make everything urgent. Everything's a crisis, everything's an emergency. And we're at the age now, we're, you know, we're 48 old, Grace looks the same. I'm aging in dog years. And a lot of our couple friends that we know, they're in marriage crisis or many, even Christians, are getting divorced. It's like what happened, what held it together was not the friendship, was the kids. And then when the kids leave, it's like the gravitational center of the universe leaves and everything spins out of orbit. And so I think early on you gotta invest in the friendship and then you reap the benefits later, especially when those kids get bigger and older and empty nest. And I don't know, you could talk about the book or how we kind of got to that principle of friendship.

Yeah, well, I think when the kids went off to school, like you were saying, Dave, I think it was a sad moment because we really love our kids and we enjoy our kids and love hanging out with them, and they make us laugh a ton. But then looking at each other, just realizing, yeah, we actually can enjoy each other without the kids around too. We remember how to do that still, because it's a lost art sometimes when you get so engaged with five kids. But I think, you know, for us, articulating that in the book, in the friendship chapter specifically, was helpful to see that, yeah, we needed to remain in that friendship to Be able to last long term in our marriage. We've seen a lot of people that don't have that friendship. And whether it's family, friends, whatever, we've seen that. And it's tragic to watch because they really have lost their whole reason they came together in the first place.

Right.

Well, that's where the work spouse or the emotional affair comes in. You start becoming friends with someone other than your spouse. That's where all the trouble begins. And so the best way to safeguard that is work on the friendship with the spouse.

And with the Internet, we have all the emotional adultery that goes on and becomes something.

Yeah, it's so true. So what are some things like when you were in the trenches, when raising your kids, what were some things that the two of you did to cultivate that deep friendship with each other?

When we went through pre marriage counseling back in college, we, our pastor had us commit not as a religious thing, but as something that you strive for and you target for to keep a weekly date night. And so for us, that was key. And we had no money. We were so poor.

We had, we were church planting, always pregnant.

Yep, that's next level poor.

Going to Baptist seminary, broke. I mean, at that point, you know, if we could just get up to zero, that would be amazing. Yeah.

So we really had to be creative. And whether it was just spending time in the house, not focused on all the chores and responsibilities, or saving, you know, 10 bucks to go to a movie after a couple weeks or whatever it was, we just had to work really hard. And actually, we. We have a lot of fun memories because we were working hard to maintain that and not letting business stuff get into that. We really had to create a separate calendar date, and then a fun date.

So, yeah, we talk about the interesting sync meeting. And a date. And a date. You know, you get dressed up, you go out, you have fun. Sync meeting is business. It's going through the calendar, the budget, the schedule, and if you don't have the sync meeting right, what you end up doing on date night is who's going to pick up the kids and who's going to go to the orthodontist and, you know, what are we gonna do for the holidays? And so we found that a lot of our time together was just getting eaten up with all the practical stuff. It felt like we were running, you know, an Uber or Lyft company, running the kids all over the universe. And so for us, there's sort of a business meeting where we, we kind of go over everything and then There's a date, and that's just fun. And we don't bring business or conflict with us on that. And things Grace was good about at that time, we. We would set up a little co op with three other couples. You know, you watch the kids one week, we watch the kids one week, which means we get three date nights. And then one is basically a hostage negotiation with 20 children at your house. You know, you're just hoping everybody makes it out alive. But then you get free childcare stuff like holidays, birthdays, could you give us gift cards for restaurants or whatever. And when you're broke young couple, or if you're just a broke old couple, at least you got some stuff stacked up. You got some fun to look forward to. So there's a lot of that kind.

Of stuff now with the fun, the fun dates. And even, even now, like what. What do you guys. What connects you the most? What are those fun things look like now when you could do anything, you could plan your dream dates. What makes you smile the most, laugh the most, have the most fun together.

It's probably very different for both of us.

It is very different. We've taken those tests and we agree on nothing other than spirituality. We're both there. Everything else, we're all about it.

So three categories. The sync date, the Mark fun date, the Grace Fund date. Yeah, the Grace Fund date. There you go. So what's the Grace Fund date look like?

Well, I like to have lengthy conversation and figure out how he's doing.

And so I need to schedule that. I gotta emotionally prepare. It's like an emotional marathon. I gotta work my way up. I gotta. I gotta drink my Gatorade, keep my electrolytes high, and then I'm ready for the good long conversation.

Yeah, it's a lot of emotional engagement just to check in on that heart level. But I also like just going to do fun stuff as well.

Not like I'm more adventurous.

Not like camping or anything.

But no, I didn't marry. I married Ginger, not Marianne. We don't camp. We just don't do that. Yeah, she won't camp. But I like adventure. So I like to go explore a new town. I like to go over a hike. I like to get on a plane and go to a new country.

I like adventure or snuggling up and taking a nap.

Oh, yeah. Amen. We're in Scottsdale and have a hammock. Absolutely. But like for me, my favorite thing, it's just really rare. I love to hold Grace's hand. So honestly, I love to hold hands and go for a walk. I just love just being outside. Fresh air with Grace. And my favorite thing. This sound a little, you know, maybe a little trite, but, like, I love holding her hand and singing in church. I feel like there's something spiritual.

It's a powerful moment.

It is, yeah. To me, it's like, no, we're together, and we're together because God is good, and we're together to experience God's goodness. So, I mean, as weird as that sounds, like I'm a pastor, so we get to do that a lot, but that's probably my favorite thing. But, yeah, we like to take trips. We like to take adventures. And I'm the guy I always need to plan, so I always need to have fun on the calendar. I always ask the kids, where do you want to go on vacation, Grace? What do you want to do? I need to have at least six or eight fun adventures planned constantly on the calendar, 12 months out. Otherwise, I start freaking.

I think that would help so many. No, that is so, like, me. Like, I'm just listening to this, and.

I'm like, yeah, is there fun coming? There better be some fun coming.

And I really appreciate that, too. And I think so many times, and I think you were getting ready to say this, so I'm sorry, sweetie.

No, you go for it. It'll sound prettier if you say it.

But I do think so many times we get in the grind of everyday life and we think, you know, life's too busy to do that, or we don't have the money to do that. We don't have the time to do that. And it really is depressing if you don't have something to look forward to that's just for fun and engaging with one another. So, I mean, I think that that's a great tip for people that if they're in kind of just kind of a lull in their marriage, you know, there's no big crisis going on, but you feel like it's just dry. It's a dry season, I think. Put something on the calendar like they're saying, that would be something amazing. Put fun on the calendar.

Put fun on the budget, and to me, rack up frequent flyer miles. Do whatever you got to do. You know, everybody chip in. Figure it out. I mean, we've been able. We did great trips, but when the kids are little, we just took them everywhere with us. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I love the adventure, man. It's fun.

No, we absolutely. We love the adventure, too. Our kids have Logged so many miles in this minivan. Those poor guys. But I think, no, wait.

You can't just say that and move on. You drive a minivan?

We love our minivan. He is like a professional minivan driver.

I can make that Honda Odyssey look like something from a James Bond movie.

He really can. It's amazing.

It's pretty. It's pretty sweet.

That's why the Lord sent us here today. For an intervention, right?

No. Dave asked me.

I can hit this with one push. I can make both side doors open. Everybody just runs in. They get to their spot, close the doors, and we're on. I know some people like the Suburban. They like to look like, you know, a rapper rolling down the street.

We like our minivan.

I just own the dad thing. Like, I.

Just kidding.

My dad brand is so strong.

It is.

It really is.

I could drive a minivan, like, even if it's just me about town, because I can just own.

You do.

What did you drive? Grace, tell them what you've always driven.

Suburban.

Suburban, yes. We roll big and large.

Cooler than us.

My wife.

That's why I call her Drake.

Limit is a set of options. Her name is Grace. She's new Covenant. She doesn't abide by law, so she goes fast. And so I just put her in the biggest vehicle I bought big wheels and tires and a metal bumper. I just want a victory mobile for my girl.

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

I love that.

We're not cool enough for that.

I wish I was cool enough for the Suburban.

But we have a white Honda Odyssey.

No, I'm wearing. Love it. Like, I'm wearing tennis shoes right now with white socks. Like, I'm just. I'm not.

Black shoes with white socks.

I'm not a cool person, and I'm just so comfortable with that that it's cool in its own way. I love it. But the minivan works for us.

It does.

All right, switching gears here.

Just. Just a little bit, because cloth or leather interior?

We just. No, it's got a newer one. It's with leather. We had cloth for years.

If you have kids, you can't do leather interior. There's not enough hand sanitizer to fix that.

We got the. Yeah, we got the thing. What is it called? The floor liner that's made of, like, plastic that you can.

Oh, it's just a big tray.

You spray it out. I did not have that. Like, my neighbor told me, you have all these kids. Why do you not have this? I think it's called Weathertech. We're not sponsoring Weathertech, but check it out.

Yet sponsor this podcast, but if you.

Want, not yet, but please call us. No, but it is amazing. It's. Seriously, it's awesome. So we were like, we love it. It's just.

Yeah.

When you're a parent, you get excited about different stuff.

It is so true.

If you're single and dating. You're not. Someday we're have a white minivan with we. That's going to be amazing.

No, it sounds so lame. But now, like, we love it. We're so excited. Like, yeah, no, we. We made. I just wanted to make out in it with you on the. You know, like I did. I'm like, let's climb in the Odyssey.

What else did you guys want to talk about?

Yeah, we got to cut this short. We got a date in our minivan.

Happen in about 15 minutes. The door opens. Yeah.

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So, all right, so back to friendship.

Friendship.

Right, friendship. So, no, this is important because we've, both of us, in a similar way, we've gone through a move recently. Right. So you guys relocated. Scottsdale, Arizona, planted the Trinity church, which I watch online. It's amazing. Look them up.

It's going great.

It's going great. You guys are just. You're crushing it. But moving is hard. Transition started. We moved seven months ago. Seven months ago from, you know, we'd been very rooted in Georgia for many years. Great friends, great church and felt, you know, God was leading us here. Wonderful opportunities happening here. We love, love, love being here. But moving is hard. Transition is hard. It's hard for our kids trying to make new friends. And so what does friendship look like in marriage in those seasons of transition? And maybe it's not a move, though for many people listening, it might be. But in those seasons of all of a sudden, there's something big that's happened that's different. We've moved, we've become empty nesters, we've got this job change. There's a. Yeah, what. So how do you navigate keeping the friendship and marriage a priority in those seasons of transition?

Hit it, babe.

I don't know that we have done this well. We've learned from not doing it well. I think looking out for, like, when he looks stressed or when I look stressed, watching for those times and just pausing and saying, hey, what can we do? How can I help, you know, being considerate of one another in those times? Because usually it's something I'm holding resentment that he didn't do. And I just wish he would hurry up and do that or vice versa. And if we just expressed it in that moment and communicated rather than doing it ourselves. And fine, if you don't want to, you know, I think just looking up for each other's needs. Cause those are stressful times. And even stopping and praying in those times too, before you even, you know, if it's a move or whatever, enduring. Because connecting spiritually helps the stresses release. And then also just emotionally being on the same page. We try and make lists now of, okay, what are. Now that we've been. We've moved several times or whatever. The issue, current issue is we've tried try to make lists, okay, what are we going to predict here? What do we need to look out for? How can we, you know, safeguard against stress or.

And part of that's looking at the calendar, looking at the budget. Where is the pain point? Where is the stress? But like, you know, when Jesus says a house divided against itself can't stand at the front end as a couple, before you make any major decision, you've gotta be aligned. I mean, division literally means two visions. So if the two of you don't agree on what you're gonna do, it ain't gonna get. It's gonna be a dumpster fire. It's just what it's gonna be. And so for us, I mean, I used to get ahead of Grace. And I was selling this is what we're doing. There's where we're going, you know, rah, rah, rah. And she wasn't sold. And so then we're not Fully unified. So I need to prayerfully give her time to process, ask her questions. And she's got certain concerns as a mom that as a dad, I'm not thinking about. They're real practical and get us to the place where we're aligned on what God's will is for us. And then we can march together into that future a little more bravely and boldly.

Which also brings the kids along, because if the parents are on the same.

Page, oh, yeah, the kids will divide and conquer. We're going to turn mom against dad. And all of a sudden it's prison riot. And so for us, it was getting unified at the front end. And then in the transition, really realizing, I tell this to couples all the time, that the relationship is more important than any issue. And as soon as you start fighting, it's because you put some issue over the relationship. And it's almost like. I'll use a gun analogy. It's almost like the higher the caliber of the round, the stronger the barrel needs to be. And you know that you're so your relationship to me is like the chamber. And the issue is like the bullet, if you load it up and it blows up, don't keep reloading. You gotta fix the chamber. And the chamber's the relationship. And there are certain issues that are higher caliber. You start talking about the in laws, the outlaws, the sex life, whatever it is, you're like, those rounds are gonna blow up. And when you move, you find all of a sudden that there's a lot of high caliber rounds.

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, we've been there. Like, everything is amplified, I think.

Oh, yeah.

It just. It amplifies. Whatever was a little issue could become potentially a much bigger issue in that very delicate period of transition.

Yeah, when we moved, so we were. We were up in the People's Republic of Seattle. That's where we met and lived for a very long time. And then we moved. And as soon as we moved, we left all our stuff in the house and we were gonna sell it and then buy house. Like 100 foot cedar tree fell on our house, crushed it with all of our furnishings in it. And I'm on, you know what, what do we do now? We can't sell our house. All our stuff is there. I go check it out. There's like a deer in the house. You're like. Like a real deer. You're like, this is not ideal. This is not ideal. And so I got Grace and the kids in a. We call it the. It was a rental House smelled like Satan farted. It was that place. And, you know, we're trying to figure out what do we do? And in that season, it's like we're trying to get the kids. Cause we had elementary, middle school, junior high and high school and college. So they're trying to slot all the kids into school and trying to figure out everything. And the only way you can find anything is on your app. You don't even know where you're driving.

Right.

And so what I told Grace at that time was I said, I feel like my life has a migraine.

Yeah, no, I get it.

You get a migraine if somebody drops a spoon. It sounds like you're in the front row for Metallica. You know, my life has a migraine. And in those seasons, just being able to say, everything's amplified, I'm gonna probably freak out. You know, just. You know, just endure me for a bit. But being gracious with one another, because in abnormal seasons, things aren't normal, and that's okay. And a move is like that. Life just goes upside down for a little while.

Oh, it squeezes. You know, I've found. I've definitely found myself. Things that shouldn't bother me will become this big issue. And so you're laughing. She's like, I have a hundred stories I could tell. Is there just one for the sake of time?

No, but it's so true, because. And I do think what you're saying about just really what I hear you saying is like, assume the best in each other and then give each other room to kind of work it out, you know? Cause sometimes I think we can be. I like to refer to it as a sandpaper season. I think moving brings on those sandpaper seasons where everything is literally rubbing you the wrong way and you feel raw and you're like, anytime somebody rubs against you, you wanna punch them in the face. And so, yeah, like, I mean, that's kind of how it's been for us. And we've moved before and we've experienced the same thing, so we kind of know that. But even when you're in it. And some people listening right now are totally relating to this. It's so easy to turn on one another because, you know, you're the closest person. Right. You know, and you wanna. You know, you see couples fighting, especially during these transition times. And I totally can attest to what you're saying about the kids. If the kids pick up on division from mom and dad. Oh, they try to work that. You know, they try to, you know, Work that out and get more leverage on their side. But, you know, it's so important to really be open and just exactly what Grace was saying. Just be honest about what you're feeling. Cause I think when you're honest, you know, it doesn't have, you know, anything in the dark. I feel like that's when Satan has his heyday. But when you bring it to light, even if it's something minute, like a little irritation that you're experiencing with your spouse, bringing it to the light and talking to them about it, it's gonna be so much better than just growing in bitterness. And, you know, and when we are bitter towards, we can't be friends. I mean, we're just kind of living life side by side, but not really experiencing engagement with one another. And joy.

It's so good and so, like, turning the page. Because some of you might be listening and thinking, well, I'm not really in transition, or maybe that I am, but what do I do with all this? Like, what do I do to very practically become a better friend to my spouse? Because that's what it comes down to. Your marriage is going to be stronger. The strength of your friendship is going to really be the foundation of the strength of your whole marriage. And so how do you get to be better friends? You know, we've all got those. Maybe those couples we look to and we're like, you know, they just seem to not only love each other, but actually like each other. And I want more of that. So how do we get there? And a few little things, a few. A few nuggets. Number one, I feel like, is honesty. The strength of your honesty in any relationship will determine the strength of your intimacy. Honesty paves the way to intimacy.

Right.

So in your marriage, you know, what is speaking the truth in love look like? You know, what does that honesty look like of. Of having no secrets, but then also being kind when sometimes maybe the truth could sting a little bit. What does that look like in your relationship?

Yeah, for us, I think it's important if it's done respectfully. That's me. I think men, cars run on gas, men run on respect. For Grace, it's love, for sure. And so she wants me to consider my words, measure my words, pray about whether or not it needs to be said. Consider my tone. Usually by the time the Holy Spirit's done with me, I'm actually ready for a decent conversation anytime before that. It's not very good. And not to have those conversations in front of the children.

Oh, yes.

But to have Those privately, because they're part of the family, but they're not part of the marriage. The marriage and the family are. They're connected, but they're not. We were together before the kids came, and we'll be there after they're gone. So our thing is our thing. And I think sometimes couples will have these conversations, either in gossip with someone else rather than with their spouse. They'll have them leaking or venting on the children, and then the children are taking an offense and then carrying the burden and. Or saying it in the presence of others, which creates a hostile environment. And so privacy, respect, tone, I think, goes a really long way, because a good beginning allows a good ending. And one of the things Grace did. When we first got married, Grace wanted to know how things were going. She would ask, how was your day? What happened? And I didn't like to have that conversation because I didn't want to relive it. I didn't like it the first time. It's like junior high. I don't want to take this class again.

Let's just pretend it didn't happen.

It's like puberty. Let's just move forward. Let's don't revisit. And so then she started asking, well, what can I do? And sometimes there wasn't anything to do. And then she started asking, how can I be a good friend? And honestly, for me, at least as a husband, I'd never really had anybody ask me that question. And so when she started asking, how can I be a good friend? How can I be a good friend today? How can I be a good friend right now? Just the fact that that was her desire pretty much was everything for me.

That's a great question.

Because whether or not somebody's being a great friend, if they love you and they want to be a good friend, that's 98% of it. It is.

Yeah.

And sometimes, you know, in a marriage, we're trying to be a good friend, but we're not, because we're not asking. And sometimes even in marriage books or podcasts or whatever, I mean, we wrote a book. You guys write books, but you read it and you say, okay, that's what that wife did for her husband. You do it and you're like, it didn't work. What's wrong with my husband? He's a different guy. Or vice versa with a wife, you know, maybe a guy reads a book. I mean, I'm going out here, you know, solicit Jesus miracles. A man read a book. But if you read a Book. He's like, you know, here's the seven things you do, and then your wife's happy. I did it. My wife's not happy. I must have read the wrong book or got the wrong.

I'm a bad wife. Yeah, right.

It's like, no, you gotta ask her. She's the expert on what a friendship would look like for her. And sometimes I think we don't just ask, how can I be a good friend today, right now, this second? What do you need?

That is a million dollar question. Like, that kind of just stopped me in my tracks. And I'm all of a sudden.

Well, I mean, it's hard to be angry with someone when they're asking you how can they be a good friend? I mean, seriously, it does.

It like, stops it.

And I can do it. No, no, no.

But it really does. It's like, oh, okay. You know, it just completely changes the dynamic of the conversation.

It's so good. Yeah.

I love that time and tone. I always have to. I had to learn to pray for the right timing and the right tone to address an issue. And for him, because he's high. Touch. Touch had to be a part of it. So holding his hand, she's rubb my neck.

That conversation is going to go really well if she's holding my hand. We're going to. We're going to land the dismount.

I love it.

Yeah.

So touch is one of your love languages. That's.

I will fake an injury to get a back rub.

Right? Whatever it takes.

Whatever it takes, brother.

I'm too ticklish is my problem.

He has too tickled.

Yeah.

I'll just take your word on that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I. But I love you. I do like somebody just.

I'm struggling with a cold.

I do love to cuddle. He is a cuddle. But when I'm being held, the world just feels right. But she gets so hot. This is an issue for a separate like session. Yeah.

Cuddling on cuddles.

We got this little dog that gets all the cuddles.

She's teeny.

I know, but I look at her like I just want to be held.

See, we have a German shepherd. We have a German shepherd that sheds all over the house. When we lived up north, we had two acres a dog go out and protect.

Yes.

Now we're in Arizona. It's 120 degrees. Dog just lays in the house and sheds. Look like I murdered a dog in the house. There's dog hair everywhere.

Crime scene. Like a chalk outline in the gold.

You guys Want a bigger dog? We know a guy.

Yeah, we'll make that happen. Oh, this is so good. We can keep this going all day for sake of time. We're going to have to land the plane. So going around the circle, Sweetie and Grace and Mark share, like, kind of one. One last nugget for those folks listening. Like, how can I be a better friend to my spouse? And we've shared a bunch of them already. I hope you've, you know, you've. You've listened to this. Taking some of these to heart, just asking that question, asking your spouse, how can I. How can I be a better friend to you right now? But sweetie, what's a nugget of marriage advice you can leave them with before we wrap up?

I think we talked about this before in other podcasts, but not enough. I think we can talk about this a lot more. It's just there is power in praying for each other, but there's a lot of power in praying with each other. So you're praying together because especially if you guys are feeling some distance and you start praying together, it's like God just binds your hearts together and it really is hard to stay mad at somebody and pray for them at the same time. I would really like to challenge people on that. Just try it. Because God really humbles our hearts and it's just. It brings us together, closer to him and closer to one another.

I love it.

I think for me, the number one mentioned emotion of Jesus is compassion. And it's easy for me to be compassionate with people all around. I grew up in ministry and had to learn that. And so if I'm lacking compassion for Mark and he sees me giving it to everyone else, it really is a hard thing on our relationship. And so it means I'm stretching myself too thin and I need to refocus. But compassion for me with Mark specifically is a huge thing that I just need to really hone in on because he's so independent. And so sometimes I feel like I'm not needed, but I am needed, and he has to remind me of that.

I'm a hot mess. Minus the hot. That's just how I roll. Yeah, I like what Ashley said. I think we know couples that sleep together won't pray together because it's too intimate. I mean, I think there is an intimacy at the soul level when you're praying and worshiping together that then lays the foundation for the emotional, lays the foundation for the remainder of the physical. I think early on, I definitely didn't. I would pray for grace. But I didn't pray with her as much the other night. And I'm not saying now I'm varsity, but even I taught on prayer. We're in John 17 going through John's gospel the other day. We. We got some good time to pray through some stuff that was kind of a burden. And it wasn't a burden from her or I. It was a burden from some other people. And it felt like the burden lifted. It felt like we united on an issue that in the past we may have ended up having some sort of conflict over. And instead we just. We agreed and we handed that to the Lord in prayer. And it was. I don't know, it was just a. It was just a real joy to know that we can come together. And God is very willing to bless that relationship because that was his decree and design. And he's. He's always gracious to meet us in that way. So. Yeah. And thanks for hanging in there, Brad. We've been together a long time. She's a resilient, wonderful woman, and it's a blessing and honor to be with her. I mean, the. The longer we're together, the more I. I just. I don't know. I don't know who I'd be or what I'd be if I didn't have Grace, but everything would be worse. I know that.

That's a beautiful statement.

Absolutely.

They're gonna make out in the parking lot too. I can tell.

Not the minivan, a way cooler car. I rented a Dodge four door truck. That's what I'm rolling in.

There you go.

Yeah.

Hey, come over.

That is pretty cool.

Take the odyssey with adventure. Oh, man. So good. So good. Well, I want to publicly thank you guys for all you've taught us. In fact, we could probably be sued for plagiarism at some point. The tagline of the book that they wrote together five or six years ago, Real Marriage, was the truth about sex, friendship, and life together. The tagline for our book, the naked marriage, releasing February 12, shameless plug nakedmarriagebook.com is undressing the truth about Sex, Intimacy, and lifelong Love. So that is awesome.

I didn't even know that.

Almost close enough for a lawsuit. But hopefully we're all under grace here.

No, it's great.

Oh, goodness.

So listen, listen, follow these guys. They have been such an encouragement to us through the years. I mean, in all sincerity, I mean this. We've learned so much from you guys. And I encourage everyone listening. If you're not currently connected to the ministry of Mark and Grace. Follow the sermons that they're putting out weekly at the Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona. If you live anywhere near that area, go. It's a wonderful, thriving church. And check out the new book, Spirit Filled Jesus. I've been reading it. It's really made an impact on me. Telling the story in a lot of ways of your family coming together, ministry as a family. Some of the stories you share of planting this church as a family woven within the context of Jesus's ministry. And you're a masterful teacher, obviously, so highly recommend this book. So check out markdriskell.comorg oh.org you know what? I'm such a fan. I even buy Driscoll berries at the supermarket when we go, oh, my gosh, those aren't us.

But, man, that would be pretty awesome.

Well, forget it. I'm done.

That would be amazing.

I'm gonna not buy them anymore now.

That I know that.

But, guys, seriously, thank you. Thank you so much, sweetie. Yes.

Thank you all so much.

Yeah, no, we love and appreciate you guys and we've been following you, your stuff on beliefnet and we're familiar with your work. And congratulations on the new season. Praying for you and the family and the big pivot. But you're in a great place. It's a great opportunity. So thanks for having me taking that opportunity. Yeah.

Well, we're excited, love to be part of the team at marriage today.

Yes.

It's a wonderful, wonderful marriage ministry and we're honored to be part of the team. And so, guys. You guys listening? We're honored that you're listening. So thank you for listening to the Naked Marriage. Thank you for reviewing, for sharing, for whatever happens in podcast world. I really don't know what all happens because my kids are better at my phone than I am, but apparently there's a lot you can do and you guys are doing it. And so thank you very much and we'll look forward to connecting with you next time.

Cool. Thanks, guys.