Stop Scorekeeping

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Hello, and welcome to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And we have a great episode for you today.

Oh, yeah, great episode as we continue in this series of talking about our very favorite marriage advice. The marriage advice today has really transformed our marriage. We hope it transforms yours as well. And then we've got a powerful question at the end, so stay tuned for that one quick announcement before we dive in. If you haven't read it already, check out our book, the Naked Marriage. If you're watching us on YouTube right now, you see me holding up the naked marriage book. If you're listening somewhere, just picture us holding up the naked marriage book. But you can read it as a paperback, an ebook, or the audiobook available through Audible on Amazon, where Ashley and I narrate it. And thank you so much for all the positive feedback and reviews about us sharing our story in that we hope that book is an encouragement to you as well. All right, well, let's dive into today's episode.

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Oh, my goodness. I feel like this particular episode is one that so many couples need to hear. And it's one that I think that we've, you know, struggled with here and there throughout our marriage, because everybody does. Because I think that the struggle part of it is rooted in pride, and that is the marital advice that we should not score keep. Okay, yes. It is so huge and it's something that is so simple, but it gets so many couples in trouble. I mean, I think we receive multiple emails every week about this particular subject.

In one way or another. We do. And it is great advice. And early in our marriage, again, you know, this whole series we're in right now. Over these next few months, our favorite marriage advice, and some of the advice that helped us early on was when someone said, just don't, don't keep score, don't try to make it 50, 50, because marriage isn't 50, 50, it's 100, 100. It's not trying to divide everything evenly in half, but it's giving everything you've got. And man, what a game changer when we really wrap our heads around that. And if we don't, though, what happens is you're constantly stuck in this negative cycle of trying to keep track of every little thing your spouse is doing wrong and everything you're doing right and feeling like you're entitled to this because he did that or she did that, or he spent this much time over there, so I get to spe this much time or he spent this much money on something he wanted, so I'm going to spend this much. And instead of really just serving each other, you make marriage this win lose thing where one of you is going to win and one of you is going to lose. But in marriage, it never works that way.

Oh, my goodness. I think where so many couples get in trouble with scorekeeping is when it comes to household duties. And a lot of the emails that I receive are from wives in particular, they that just feel like their husband is not carrying his weight when it comes to household duties. Now, the husbands who write Dave, they often feel like, well, I'm doing XYZ so I shouldn't have to do as much at home, or she's better at this, so she should do that. And so there's all these reasons that people give for why they do or why they don't do certain things. And I think that the real question here is, are we serving each other right?

Are we serving each other?

Are we giving everything, are we giving our best to each other? And I think that when you do that, when you just really ask each other that and ask yourselves that, I mean, really, it needs to be kind of like a self reflection. It's a great exercise in really kind of just being honest about maybe some blind spots that we all have. I think we all have blind spots in propping ourselves up is doing a lot more than we actually do and also making our spouse seem like they're doing way less than they're actually doing. And so it's just important that we realize it all comes back to serving one another and to not allowing pride to rule our relationship. Because when we try to keep score. It really just becomes so much about us and everything we're doing, and it's just very prideful. And we always are way nicer to ourselves when it comes to keeping score than we are with our spouse.

Yes.

And so it really, you know, when we have these, like, arguments over this, I understand that there's some practical, you know, steps need to be taken to make sure that certain things get done. And maybe if you're a real, you know, if you like things written down on paper, maybe write those duties down. But I don't think that making sure that everything is exactly split even is the answer. Because the truth is, certain duties, you know, one spouse may be better at it, and certain things, too, take a lot more time and a lot more effort than other things. And so then you get into that and you're just splitting hairs, and it's maddening.

It really is maddening. And your. Your list is never going to be accurate if you're trying to divide things up 50, 50 anyway, because we always score what we do as being more valuable and what are more important. And instead you just have to come back again. What Ashley said is so important. Serve each other and think what's going to bring out the best in our marriage. You know, a quick story about this. We were, you know, hanging out with some friends recently, and these are some dear friends. I love him so much. And, you know, he works outside the home. She. She was working outside the home as well, but went through a phase recently where she'd stopped working outside the home. And so now she's at home with the kids full time. And he has these kind of expectations of what he would like the house to look like. And she's trying to keep up with the kids. And it's just. It's a lot on her. And so she said, look, this is something that would really help me. She said, I've looked into this. For $200, once a month I want to bring in a housekeeper, and just once a month get just the house really cleaned. And his first response was, why in the world we do that? Like, you're at home working, like, this is your job. You know, I'm working outside the home. So, like, you should just be able to do this, and we could really use that money. But as he was kind of expressing that and his wife was just saying, like, listen, you know, it's kind of. It's chaotic trying to get all these kids where they need to go. It is a lot, and this would help me a lot. And then she said something that completely changes perspective. She said, isn't $200 a month a worthwhile investment to make sure that we can keep a strong marriage?

Yes, it is.

And he laughed. And he said, well, you put it that way, it absolutely is. And so he happily thank her for.

Like, putting it in perspective.

Right. So he happily now does that. And he doesn't see it as an investment just in the cleanliness of his home. Like, he sees this now as a way to serve his wife and who is. At one time, he had this mindset of like, well, no, you should just be able to suck it up and get this done. But, you know, she's doing a lot. A lot that, you know, he can't see. There's a bunch of kids, and she's taking them all these different places. And there's a lot that goes with managing a house and still keeping things, you know, straightened up as she goes. But she's saying, this once a month thing would really, really help me. And so he decided, instead of, like, making her feel badly about that, I'm gonna celebrate the fact that this is a way that I can serve her as she's doing so much to serve our family, and this is going to help our marriage. And so having that kind of mindset instead of just, well, you need to be able to suck it up and do it. I'm working hard. You gotta work hard, like, to say, no, I know you're doing a lot. What can I do to make your life better? It's never your job to try to belittle or parent your spouse or try to tell them that they should be doing a lot more than they're doing. Instead, it's okay to tell them what you need or what you would appreciate if they would do that for you. Especially if you're like me. And Acts of Service is actually your love language. I mean, that's my primary love language. And so when Ashley does Acts of Service, it really just makes my heart full.

You love it when I just get stuff done?

Oh, when she gets stuff done, she is so sexy.

It doesn't matter what it is. Like, it could be like, registering our kindergartner for school and just making sure it's taken care of because you have to gather, like, oh, there's so much worth of documents to do that. And it's just kind of a. You know, it takes effort. And he's been so appreciative about it. And not that you wouldn't do it. I mean, you've registered Our kids for school every year.

No, she tells me what she's done, and it's like, she's talking dirty to me, you know, she's like, and then I registered them for school, and then I went to the store and I picked up these things we needed, and I'm like, oh, what else did you do? And she's like, and then after that, like, I got this bill taken care of, and I'm like, oh, baby, it's like, you might as well be wearing lingerie when you're talking to me like that.

You love it. You're like. Cause you are a person who. You're very driven and you're very strategic. That's your number one strength. And you get stuff done. And you appreciate it when I do that too. Now, you don't put it on me, like, necessarily, like, when you do these things.

I've never ever given you a list. And I think personally, marriages where one spouse gives the other spouse a list that just.

Well, some appreciate a list.

I will say that unless you're asking, if your spouse is asking, could you write down, you know, the things that you're asking me to do? But if it's always this honeydew list that you feel like you're never. If it gets into this dynamic where you feel like the spouse who's giving the list is always judging and critiquing and grading as if they're the employer or the boss or the parent and you've got to do these chores for them. When that becomes the dynamic, that just feels unhealthy. And a lot of the couples that I've known that have kind of gotten into that, I think they would almost describe it as unhealthy. At least the one who's getting the list would. Uh, and so.

Well, it just feels like it's never ending too. I mean, it's never finished. You know, most of the those kind of lists, they're just constant. And people joke about the honeydew list. Like, if in your marriage the list is like here and there and it's no big deal. We're not talking about that. We're meaning, like, where one is constantly adding to a list and the other's never given a list. Like, you know, there's not a reciprocal list, right?

It's. It's a one way.

Right, Exactly. So it. That. That can be. It can just be hard. It adds a lot of pressure to the marriage. And usually there's not a lot of good communication going on there. You know, you can't communicate during your whole marriage through lists. Like, that's not gonna get you anywhere. So you gotta talk about these things, talk about your frustrations, but also definitely set expectations together. You know, I remember, gosh, years ago, a few years ago, I am a clean freak. Like, I will just say it. I am like, I really like a clean house. I really just like things. So. So. And now with four boys, it's not. I mean, believe me, my house, it's, you know, it's gonna be messy at times. Cause we have kids and we have life and things like that. But I do appreciate a clean house. And when I was teaching school, I remember our schedule, it just got even crazier. And this is before we started doing marriage ministry to the extent that we're doing now. But things had to shift a little bit. And so Dave was like, sweetie, please, just to take this off your plate, I know you're super particular with cleaning, but there's just not as much time in the day. Let's, you know, have a housekeeper come every two weeks. And so I asked my friends about it. I had her come every two weeks. She was great. But then I just. I have this part of me that actually. And I know some of you listening are gonna be rolling your eyes when I say this. I actually. It's kind of therapeutic for me to clean my house because I know that I'm the one who cleaned it. Okay. Now there's times where I definitely dread it, but I actually like it. And so when things slowed down a bit, I went back to that, you know, with cleaning our house. But then the one thing I hate when it comes to housekeeping and Dave and the boys help, too. I'm not gonna act like I do at all. Like our kids, we have official chore day. I have a whole blogs about this, about chore day, where everybody pitches in and we have the daily chores that our kids do, and Dave pitches in all the time.

And you work so hard. You're the hardest worker in the family. And not only in this area, but really in all our areas. But you.

I don't know about that.

You get it.

Well, I just really like a clean house.

We all try to, but there came.

This point where with this one chore, it just became the band of my existence. And it was after our fourth child was born. And then we got a little busier with our traveling and our speaking, and I just never felt like I could keep up with it. And that was laundry. And Dave would help out some too, but I hated folding It. I just hated it. And he was like, listen, I know you don't want a housekeeper. Even though he was just to take anything off my plate, he was like, listen, I don't care if we pay for a housekeeper. Like, that's a good investment for your sanity if you want it for our marriage. But he was like, but what about laundry? Like, he goes, I think because my.

Friend had started this.

Oh, that's right. Yeah. Because it was your friend. Yeah.

I had this friend who. Who started this. This, like, this little business that he was just kind of running on his own where. Where he would, like, drop laundry bags off, you know, at people's houses, and they could fill up this laundry bag.

A wash and fold service.

Right. A wash and fold. I didn't even know this existed. But you could fill it up with your dirty bag.

It was a mobile service.

And then you drop it off on your front door. You don't have to go anywhere. And he would come pick it up.

Yeah.

And take it. And some. He would. Somebody would clean it, like, two days later, and it would magically appear as if these, like, magical elves had come to your house and taken it and folded it. And so I knew that existed. I'd never used him. We were doing it all ourselves. But I knew because talking to him, that that existed. So I started looking into it, and we found a really reasonably priced place that would do that exact same thing when we moved. Yeah. And I said, listen, I know we're doing everything on our own. We try to live within budget and all that, but this one thing, I think would take a lot off your shoulders. And so let's do it. And we did it for probably a year.

A solid year. Yes. Especially sometimes we would do it when it was especially busy. Cause you can pause, right.

Busy seasons.

Let me tell you. I was real reluctant because I kind of. It was a bit of a pride issue on my part, feeling like, oh, am I a failure as a mom and as a wife if I'm not doing all of our laundry?

You were doing so many other things.

Well, that was silly for me to think that.

And I would try to keep up with it. But laundry was the beast that none of us could conquer because of four boys cycling through sweaty clothes constantly. And then us two, it was never ending. And that one thing. It's like you kind of, like, tackle things. What's the biggest monster in our way right now in terms of, like, chores have to get done? And that was it. Because it was never ending. And once we said all right, well, let's pay for somebody to do that during that busy season. We've actually now our schedule's kind of changed, and we're. We're doing all of our own laundry again. And it's totally fine. It's totally manageable. But during that season of stress, it really, really helped.

Oh.

And so especially when you're in a stressful season, look for just ways to say, this might not be permanent, but right now, in this season that we're in, what's something that would alleviate stress? And maybe it's something where, you know, you might not have the budget to. That wasn't super expensive, but we've had plenty of times where we wouldn't have been able to pay for that. So look for ways to say, how can I lighten your load? Like, how can I do something that you normally do to take something off of you? Because I might have a little bit more margin right now. And it's not about 50 50. It's not about who's doing more. It's about in this season, you're facing stress. I want to serve you. How can I get that off your plate? Whether it's if we have the budget to hire it done or for me to do it for you, but let's just figure out a way to serve each other and promote as much peace as possible in the house instead of ever saying, well, you don't do it. I do more than you. You should able to get this done. Whenever you take on that mindset, man, it's just toxic. And so instead, say, I want to serve you. I want your life to be easier and better because I'm your spouse.

Yes.

And so what can I do to make your life easier and better right now? And then whatever it is, just be willing to try to do it.

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You know, I was so thankful that Dave got me to see the value in that mobile wash and fold service. And, you know, if we got to that busy point again, Once we start traveling and speaking once again, you know, we would use it again. Like, it was awesome. It was just a great service. It really helped our family. So, like, maybe after you turn off this podcast, you think about, what are some ways that we could take things off each other's plate, Whether we're. We're the ones doing it, like, for. For a time, or we hire some. A service to. To help out with that. Because there's lots of. Of things that you may not even realize are out there that could really lighten the load. And maybe even just that one act of hiring something out would stop fighting over that one thing. I mean, like, you know, we sometimes get so stuck just talking about the same thing and being disgruntled about the same thing, and we don't even think, like, maybe we could just outsource this.

Maybe there's a solution here.

Yeah, maybe there's a solution.

Yeah.

You know, I want to say this, too. You know, even sometimes I think where we get stuck with this particular issue of keeping score is with gender roles when it comes to who needs to.

Do what you're talking about.

And I know. I'm gonna. I'm gonna.

It's not only an episode. I think that's a whole series of.

It is a whole series. Yes.

People's mindsets and baggage related to that and expectations going into marriage.

We might wrestle some feathers with this. I know.

Well, in my house, the man did this, the woman did this, and that's how it's gonna be in this house. And just kind of the unspoken expectations we bring into marriage. And I just. I think that instead of, like, having this rigid view of, like, the man does, this woman does this. First off, talk about, you know, who's better at different things. Cause, listen, in our house, a lot of the traditionally masculine roles. Ashley is way better than me, and we've joked about this way better. We're not even gonna pretend like she's way better with tools. Her dad taught her how to do all this stuff when she was growing up. He had only daughters, and he was super handy and an engineer. And so she's so good at so many things around the house that, like, I'm just.

Well. And I enjoy it.

And she's. And she enjoys it. And so. And so we just kind of, like, go from that angle. Like, okay, who enjoys this most? Who's best at it? Who has the time? Who has the energy? What needs to get done? And then we just kind of try to divide things up that way instead of Saying this rigid mindset of like, well, the woman's gotta do all this, the man's gotta do all this. That's just. Nobody wins that way.

Exactly. Like even in our own families. Dave had his middle brother, Ben loves cooking. Like, he loves it and he makes amazing things. My brother in law, Joe, my sister Morgan, Morgan hates cooking. Joe loves cooking. We just went on a family vacation with them. And I'm not even kidding you, Joe cooked most of the meals because a lot of things were closed.

It was great.

I mean, he was like cooking up a storm and he enjoys it. And, and it's also a necessary thing that needed to be done. And so, yeah, sometimes it's like, you know, I know in some sometimes too. I just wanna level with this for a moment. A lot of times it's. We believe things should be a certain way based on what our parents did. Okay. And I had this, I had this false mentality. Like I truly, in the beginning of our marriage, I just kind of expected Dave to just in time become an expert at tools because that's what men do. I mean, I really made that false assumption because honestly, in my.

And I've progressed, I've gone from.

So he's been amazing.

I started out I was terrible, and I've progressed to now just being really bad.

So like, it's like, you're not bad.

One step up from terrible. So by the time I'm like 60, I'll just be bad and then.

No, there's progress like that. You, you don't truly enjoy it. There's certain things you enjoy, but like my, the men in my family, my dad's whole side, and even, even, you know, some of the guys on my mom's side, they all really enjoy working with their hands, working with tools. But in Dave's family, that just wasn't really a thing. Like, it's just not. There's so many things that you're good at and that you learned growing up, but that just wasn't one of them, you know, like basics, you know, but it's just. You're having a smirk at me while I'm saying this. And I'm like, you really, you've done it out of necessity, but it's not your favorite thing. I will say that.

And you know, and this is an important point to make. We're saying, like talk about who enjoys it more and all this just real life here. There's gonna be a lot of stuff you have to do in your home and in your marriage that you both don't like. Nobody enjoys. Right. Neither of you might like mopping, you.

Know, neither of you changing diapers.

Nobody likes changing diapers.

He is a champion.

I have wiped so many butts in my life.

He's wiped a ton of butts.

Like, I've never once enjoyed it, ever. It's been terrible. It's just as terrible now as it was.

You do such a good job.

15 years ago when I started, you know, my form has gotten better. I feel like the overall cleanliness of the butts has gotten better. Speed, Speed, proficiency. I could go to the diaper Olympics, but I've always hated it. But it's just part of what you do, right? I mean, and so instead of saying, well, I don't like that, so I'm not doing it. You can't have that mindset either. So there has to kind of be that attitude of service where again, as followers of Christ Jesus modeled this, he got down and he washed his disciples. Dirty, nasty feet. Nobody likes Washington. Other grown men's dirty, nasty feet.

Hairy, hairy.

Nobody likes that. But he was showing for us the privilege that it is to serve. And that love in action is shown through how we serve one another. You're never more like Jesus than when you serve. And in marriage, we're called to love like Jesus, we're called to love like him. And the only way we can do that is to selflessly serve and ask nothing in return. You know, notice that Jesus didn't wash their feet and say, all right, now you guys give me a back rub and wash my feet. Now. It wasn't. He did it and it was. That's what service is. You serve and then it's done. It's not the scorecard that you're keeping of all the things that they owe you. Now it's an act of love in itself that's self contained without any strings attached. And in marriage, there have to be millions of those moments back and forth.

And it's sacrificial love too, because you do sacrifice your time. You sacrifice convenience. I mean, like, you know, we talk about starting with what you do enjoy and what you're really good at. But like Dave said, I mean, there are so many. There's. There's so many things in life that we're teaching our boys this too, that you just have to do because it needs to be done. I mean, that's just part of being an adult. And, and we just have to get stuff done and, and we have to approach these household duties. And even just more than household like Even just financially, you know, working. Working for the family and. And just doing, you know, getting the kids to where they need to go. We need to do those things just because they need to be done, and we need to have a good attitude about it and just know that we're adults and we're gonna be grown up about this. I think so many times, it's like we kind of revert back to being children and just kind of sticking our feet down and crossing the line.

I don't want to do it.

I don't want to do it.

I'm not eating my broccoli.

But it has to be done, and we have to have a good attitude about it and remember that we're a team. We're a team in this.

Yeah.

And we're gonna win together. We're gonna win together when we both decide to serve each other, to serve our families and really kind of try to make it fun. Like, we try to make chore day, like on Sundays before we go to church. Now we're not going to church right now. You know, we're watching it online. But before we would go to church, you know, we would do chores as a family, and I would put on music. I mean, the kids, of course, are a little disgruntled, but it's something we've been doing for years now. But we tried to put on music and make it fun. And then if we had time afterwards, I would make banana pancakes where you replace the egg with a banana. And for some reason, my kids think I'm a chef, because I do that. It's extremely easy. You get some bisquick, replace the egg with a banana. It's amazing.

And lower cholesterol, and it's lower. And in my age, I have to think about these things.

But, you know, you make it fun, and you have a reward at the end of it. And so it doesn't have to be just the ban of your existence.

Yeah. Yeah. When you serve, when you realize that there is joy in serving one another, then you've won. And there's no joy in scorekeeping. You've lost. Once you start keeping score, you've won. Once you tear up that scorecard and just start loving and serving each other. All right, great topic. It is now time to dive into today's question. Thank you. For those who submit questions, you can write us on social media, find Dave and Ashley Willis on Facebook, Instagram, or for those that are answered on the podcast, go to nakedmarriagepodcast.com and you could submit a Question there. Today's question says, I've been dating my boyfriend for almost five years. We are in love and have shared with each other that we don't want to be with anyone else. I want marriage. He does not. We have both been married before and have had horrible experiences with divorce. I know God wants marriage and not shacking up. My boy says that may be. And one day he will do a ceremony saying that we're married between him and I and God. But he doesn't think that our faith requires the government involvement. What should I do? I feel so lost and torn. Yeah, this is a great question. And really, in our culture right now, I think this is a question a lot of couples are struggling with, especially in your situation where you say you both have been married and you've had a bad experience with that. And I think that there's a fear. There's a fear in it. But the Bible says perfect love drives out fear. And that love that you guys have for each other and love is really rooted in commitment, then that has to be greater than the fear of the uncertainty. And so, like my quick advice before I turn it over to Ashley, and I'm sure she'll say it wiser and more eloquently than I can say it is really what you're wanting can only exist within the covenant of marriage. The term shacking up that you used to. I know that the love you have for each other is something that's already more sacred than kind of just that term would imply. But trying to do that without marriage, which people have tried to do for years, have tried to have the benefits of marriage and the commitment of it without the covenant of it, we're missing out. Marriage, a wedding itself. All through scripture, it's a picture of that. Your relationship is both a very private relationship between just you and your spouse and God, but it's also very public, which is why, you know, every wedding in the Bible, including where Jesus first miracle took place, was always a very public ceremony showing that we're entering into this community as a couple. And we're part of this community as a couple and as a family. And we need the support of the community around us as we go. So to make it only a private relationship, you miss out on half of what marriage is meant to be, which is that. That public half. And you also miss out, even more importantly on the spiritual blessing that God only wants, only releases when that covenant is made through. Through marriage. We can't. This isn't just semantics. This isn't just Living one way and calling it marriage versus calling it commitment for God, it's much deeper than that. It is. It is something that is sacred once we make those vows to one another. And there's really no substitute for it. So my advice, and this might be just, you know, too. Too blunt, but I would say that, again, showing some compassion for your boyfriend, because I think that there is just some fear that's holding him back. And I'm not saying he's like a terrible person or anything like that. I'm sure he's a good person. But this issue of marriage is so sacred and so important, then anyone who is not willing to commit to you in marriage isn't worthy to commit to you in any other way. So I would say for the length of time you guys have been together, it's kind of to the point where it's like, listen, if you don't want marriage, then that's enough reason for us to go our separate ways. Because I want more than just living together and saying we're committed, but doing it apart from God's plan, when our relationship can't thrive without God's plan and his blessing. And that only exists within the covenant of marriage. And so I would say move toward marriage or move toward singleness, but staying in this situation long term is not healthy.

Gosh, sweetie, I don't think I could say it any better. And I know it's hard and it's tender and there's all kinds of layers to this particular situation, but I do think that I would definitely try to go deeper. You know, I would encourage this person to go deeper with her boyfriend and ask him maybe some hard questions and say, like, is there a reason you don't want to make this a leap? Because he said he would. He would be okay with having it be a covenant between them and God, but not with the government. And again, I feel like there's something there. Maybe it is just based on fear, but I would have pause for that because.

Why?

You know, like, what's the reason? I would definitely try to get to what's, you know, the reason is there because that. That gives me. I feel like that's a bit of a red flag. And again, I don't know the entire situation, so please forgive me if there's something that I'm missing here. But I agree with Dave. I think that this is a crossroads. I mean, you've been together five years, and you were married before, too. You know what marriage takes. And you've been through a divorce and you know how heartbreaking that can be. And you're willing to get married, so just have these honest conversations with your boyfriend and say, like, listen, I'm willing to take the big jump. I love you. I wanna commit my life to you. I want you to be my forever. And I just. It hurts me deeply to think that you won't even consider that, like, I'm not important enough in your life for you to do this all the way, you know, both spiritually and legally, because it's very important for it to be, you know, you're either all in or you're not. Right? And so we'll be praying for you. And we appreciate you being so open and honest with this question. I know it's kind of a hard place to be, but we do appreciate you for bringing up this important topic.

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Bye, guys.