The Anatomy of Anxiety with Dr. John Delony

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Hey, there. Welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And we have a great interview for you today.

Yes. We recorded this one a while back, and we've been waiting to release it until the book was out. We've got Dr. John DeLoney, one of the most remarkable and exciting voices out there right now. In fact, I looked today on itunes, and his podcast is in the top 10 of all podcasts, which is incredible. All podcasts. And, like, the number you got to have to get in that top 10. He's, like, the only one that's not, you know, talking about murders. Murders or pop culture or politics, I think.

Yeah, politics.

He's really, really gifted.

You're going to love our conversation. And in this conversation, we say, the book's coming out, but the book is out. And so we just wanted to give you that update right at the beginning. So let's dive into today's conversation. John Deloney, welcome to the podcast. Welcome.

Thanks, Dave and Ashley, Y' all are fantastic. I'm going to clip that and make my daughter listen to it so she'll. I'm not that bad.

I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it. Hey, well, when. Whenever we have a guest on the Naked Marriage podcast, before we jump into the subject at hand, we usually like to start with love stories. You don't have to tell it like an old creepy voice, but tell us how you and Sheila met with the. The genesis of the great Deloney love story.

Yes.

Wow. If. If this is a great love story, God help us all.

Her.

I was friends with her brother. Her brother was a year older than me in college, and we're buddies. And one day I'm walking through the student union building as a freshman, and he's standing there with a senior in high school, and he said, hey, this is my sister. I'm pretty sure y' all are going to get married. And I looked at her, and she had a Brown braided belt, and she had it pulled up like her pants way too high. And I had long hair and a bunch of earrings. And I didn't. I. I bathed on the weekly, bi weekly schedule. And we both looked at each other and was like, yeah, no, she looked like a banjo playing country girl. And I looked like a guy who was so desperate to be in a. In a punk rock band.

Right.

And then the next year, she showed up at college and I was playing a, like a student recruitment event thing, and I was playing guitar, playing silly songs, and she said, I literally sat in that audience and said, I'm gonna marry that guy. And we broke up five times over five years. And then I had a terrible proposal in a Papacitos, a Mexican food restaurant in Houston.

Yeah.

I feel like just doing it at the Papacitos almost guarantees a yes, because those tortillas, like, I mean, everybody's in a good place.

Everything is perfect. Except for how I did it. It was awful. And it's been 21 roller coaster years, so here we are, man. We just did 21 years last month, so it's been great.

Happy anniversary. That's great.

Anniversary. And you guys were at Lubbock Christian University.

That's right. A little faith based school down. Right down the street. On the same street as Texas Tech University there in West Texas.

Love it. That is so great. And how many kids we have?

Two kids, Hank and Josephine. Nice.

Awesome. That's awesome.

I love hearing those stories.

Yeah.

See, even if it starts out rough, guys, we sometimes have, like, people who are single who want to be married one day. Listening to this, and I want to say, there's hope. You know, there's hope. You think you have nothing in common, but you kind of hear that still small voice saying, you should marry that person. There's still hope. Have patience.

Yeah.

Every once in a while, I still ask myself, did I hear that voice right?

Was that the right.

Marriage is quite the journey, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love it. Well, I know, like Dave said kind of right out of the gate that you. You help so many people through your books, through your podcast, and you have such a heart for. And knowledge of anxiety, and that is something that is near and dear to our heart. Not only because, you know, we, you know, minister to a lot of people who deal with this as well, and we know how rampant it is, but also on a personal level, it's something not only we've walked through ourselves, but even with some of our kids and. And I know that we're just In a world and that is so filled with anxiety. And I know you know this more than anybody. And so I just want to ask your inspiration kind of behind the book, like why. Why focus specifically on anxiety?

Oh, man. I think the long answer is I worked as a dean of students for almost 20 years and over that 20 year period, it very rapidly went from feeling like it was overnight, but it was actually a couple decades. It went from hey, my kids got adhd, where does the accommodation office and hey, my kid is smoking cigarettes and can you help them stop dipping to I can't breathe when I walk into that classroom or we grew up in such a traumatic home. I need you to help my kid. I've done all I can. And by the way, you help my kid. Can I sit down in your office for an hour too? And so became this pervasive, it became in the air with these young people I was working at. And what was frustrating in retrospect was it was happening to me too. And I missed it. I didn't know. And so I was chasing and running and every, every certificate, every, every new title at the office, every dollar amount. The moment I got a raise, I was planning for the next one. I mean, it was just madness. And on a personal level, eventually my body said, I'm out. I've given you every signal, I've banged every drum, I've rung every alarm system. We have. I quit. And I didn't have a psychology for that because I was a go getter and so in my marriage didn't have a psychology for that. And I had a new two year old little boy. He didn't. I mean, so I've. This is a very personal thing as it comes to the actual book. You know, I co host the show with Dave Ramsey, the nationally syndicated radio show. And during COVID people were calling and it was this, I'm burned out, I'm stressed and I'm stressed and I'm stressed, I'm anxious, I've got anxiety. How do I stop this anxiety so I can go do my other things? And one day I just pulled the headphones off and I looked at Dave and I said, anxiety is not the problem. That's just the alarm letting you know that your life is spinning out of control on you and your body's desperately, in a, in a loving way trying to get your attention. And he's sat back and with his, he's got a very particular face he makes when he's thinking. And he looked at and said, that's your that's your. That's your next book. And I didn't want to write it. I wanted to write something about parenting or. Or Kumbaya something. And the team got together and said, hey, like, not to be overdramatic. The world needs this book right now.

Yeah.

So here we are.

Here we are.

It is so needed, man.

Yeah. Building a non anxious life. I mean, that's. That is. That's the hope that all of us have. But where do you think all this anxiety has come from? You know, because you said over those couple decades that you were seeing it firsthand on the front lines in that university setting, but that. That was just kind of like a little sample of what was happening on a broader scale. And I think all of us have seen that, and I think Covid amplified that. But it was around before, you know, well, before COVID Like, what happened over the last 20 years? Like, why are. Why is there so much anxiety for, you know, I want to know. Like, it's a mystery to me. I'm like, where did all this come from?

What's happening? Yeah.

I think anybody that tells you it's because of this. One thing is the moment somebody says it's because of this, it's because of our diets or it's because of the seed oils, it's because of the cell phones. Anytime somebody distills it down into a single data point, I. I think it's wise to stop following them and to not listen to them anymore because they're trying to sell you something.

Yeah.

The truth is, in a. In a what? I believe in a non nefarious. I'm not a conspiracy theory. I'm kind of a conspiracy theorist, but not totally in a very uncoordinated way. A whole bunch of people across a whole bunch of industries and a whole bunch of contexts were doing the best they could to make life more comfortable, to make life faster, to make life to hack things, to not. Why wait 30 years of hard work when you can just get to be a CEO at 21 if you just do these 10 things, all of it. Why in the world would you take a knee before God? You don't need to anymore. We've got food. We can pump water four miles from the. From the middle central of the Earth. Right. We've solved all these problems and we landed in this world about 25 years ago, and it's just accelerated. We've created a world that our bodies were not designed to live in. Full stop. Full stop. And you. You can. The. The range of things from our cars, to our technology, to our food, to our movement, to our jobs, to our. All of us have a little box in our pockets that literally can make us millionaires overnight if we do it right. We have like what I was looking today. 470, 000 Instagram friends as of, as of this thing. I know personally about nine of them. And our bodies aren't designed for 470, 000 people. Right?

You know, 10 of them now because we're one of those or 11 because we're a joint account of that. 470.

Y'. All. Twice actually. It's only, it's all. Yeah, I only have five friends. I was counting y' all as y'. All. So all to say is I think our. We are all anxious because our bodies are trying to let us know, hey guys, we have created a world that's, that's incredibly fragile and incredibly unsafe. And it happened all at the same time. And our whole ecosystem, our entire culture is designed to help you climb up and to that alarm and just pull the batteries out. The goal is to distract. The goal is to stop the alarm so you can go about doing what you want to do. And if you pull the batteries out of your smoke detector, man, you'll silence the alarms and your house will burn down around you. And that's this whole idea of this book. Dude, I don't want to live in a house without a smoke detector. I don't want to try to stop being anxious. I want to create a world where those alarms only go off when they're absolutely necessary and when there's a true bear at the front of my cave. And other than that, we're going to start living these fruits of the spirit. How do you create a life worth living?

Right, man, I love that.

And hey, hold on. This is super uncomfortable if you really start peeling back the layers. And it's super counter cultural if you dig into it and it's, it's already got me in some trouble. It's hard when you start really peeling back. Like, oh, so what you're saying is. And I'm thinking. And I'm saying, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's hard.

It's hard because the world rewards behaviors that lead to anxiety. Like we're a driven culture. You know, we're like the, it's achievement based. It's, you know, we, we equate busyness with success. And it's like we keep adding on, adding on. And none of that creates more peace. Right? Peace. Isn't really the goal. It's just success without the anxiety. It's, it's living without the batteries in the alarm.

Yeah.

And we're missing out on real peace, like the fruit of the spirit, like you said, the love, joy, peace, patience, all that, all that stuff that God wants to give us, but we don't have room, we don't have margin for it. And I'm preaching to myself, like I, I've been guilty of all this, of charging too hard and my body giving out and all this.

You've had your body give out? I mean, literally. I mean, he ended up with a thyroid disorder that they say it kind of. His genetic lies dormant, but stress and anxiety kind of ruined it. I mean, basically it kind of ruined his thyroid. And I mean, he's fine, thank God. You know, you had to readjust your schedule. You had to do those things. But what I want to make sure that those listening, whether it's for themselves or maybe for their spouse, like they, these signs, I would love for you, you know, to quickly tell us maybe what are those alarm bells? Like what are some signs that we need to lean into and say, wow, like our body and our minds are telling us something like that we might be anxious.

I think you just, you, you just brought up a great point talking about Dave's thyroid. Yes. So when somebody asks me about is, you know, is ADHD genetic or is anxiety genetic? Here's the way I explain that we, you, the three of us, we all have homes. And let's pretend we all had three separate homes that all had three separate basements. Ashley, in your basement was a guitar studio. You build guitars and you rock out. And in Dave's, you're, you have a candle factory where you make the best smelling candles. And in my garage, it's a motorcycle repair garage. All three of those houses catch fire. And in Dave's, yours is gonna, like, the fire department is gonna talk for years about how good your house smelled as it sl. Slowly simmered to the ground. It was full of wax and it was beautiful and it smelled nice and it, and it, and it gently burned down. Right. Ashley, yours is going to have transistors popping off down there. There's going to be noise and feedback. And mine is so full of chemicals and combustible things, it's going to go up like a mushroom cloud.

Right.

So it's hard to answer that question. What does this look like? And that's one of my core issues with the dsm, with the diagnostic manual that doctors use is it categorizes everything into these little slivers. And if you don't fit in those slivers, it dumps you into another label. The reality is, Dave, your body might shut you down with a thyroid issue. My body might shut me down with depression. Your body might shut you down, Ashley, with any like, I'm going to eat, I'm going to eat, I'm going to eat. Or I'm going to grab a drink, I'm going to grab a drink, whatever the thing is. And so I think some of the core issues up front are we are designed from the get go to sleep. And if you can't put your head down and go to sleep, that's a great signal that your body's not okay.

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If you are with somebody that you're married to and sex has become something that you lean away from, and I'm using sex globally as intimacy and sex can be actual sex or it can be sitting next to somebody on the couch and you're just holding hands and your feet are intertwined, if that becomes something that sets off your body, this isn't safe. If you pull into your driveway and you exhale and you immediately pull your phone out, or if somebody you love, your spouse, pulls into the driveway and you immediately head to the bedroom and shut the bathroom door, not because you're hiding, just your body saying, hey, let's get out of here. It's those small little if you find yourself getting another drink, get another drink. Or you find yourself that co worker text you and it makes you laugh and they text you back and then your spouse comes in and you turn your phone over. That's the moment, right? So it can be any number of signals. And usually it's the, it's the start of a numbing behavior or an outsourcing behavior or a behavior that just doesn't make sense biologically. Right? That's where I want to point people to begin to catch themselves. And I'll tell you this, I am terrible at catching my own signals. Often it's those who love us if they have permission to speak into our lives. My wife will gently say, did you just grab that bag of candy because you want candy or because. And I'll set it down. Right. Or my wife will say, are you going back to the gym because you think you need another workout? And I'll say, no, I need to go burn something off. And she'll go, okay, great. Or am I hiding from something? Right. So the person. The people around us that we love, that group of guys, that group of men and women that we trust or our spouse, they often are great at pointing out things that we don't see for ourselves. Also.

So true. And I. You know, we always tell people on this podcast, we say, like, if your spouse comes to you with a genuine concern, especially about some kind of mental health issue, believe them. Like, why would they make this up? Like, believe them. They're concerned about you. And I think a lot of times when we're. When we are anxious or depressed or just going through a really rough season and we're not recognizing that we have these triggers or we have these responses and these alarm bells going off, we tend to get really defensive, you know? And, like, I'll be honest with you. When I first started noticing Dave, like, and it kind of manifested differently in you, with your experience with anxiety and depression than it did with me. And it took me a minute to recognize it, but when I did, I remember at first you were a little bit like, I'm fine. It's just a busy season because I.

Got scented candles in my basement.

Yeah.

And so it smells bad. Smells good.

It's hard to recognize something bad when.

It'S having a meltdown.

Well, here was. Here was mine. Here was mine, guys. I got another promotion, and I got another significant raise. More money than my parents had ever wrapped their head around. And I got asked to be on another task force and fill in the blank. And it was sitting down and realizing my wife was slowly, unintentionally, unconsciously creating an alt universe for her and my new son. Because I was like being married to a Taser. And I remember slowly feeling like I am not even a part of my own life. I'm not a part of this household. And so anxiety, for me, looked like a whole bunch of success until it's. Till it stopped, right? Until it all fell off. So it didn't look like I, you know, burned the building down or slept with the secretary. Like, these, like the. The. The A E specials always make it out to be sure. For me, it was just slow. That. That. That quiet life of desperation. Right. That we're slowly heading off. I'm gonna. I'm gonna achieve myself directly into the ground, Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

I love that you mentioned that. Cause, yeah, sometimes there's not these outward signs, and like, from the outside, it looks great. It's. It's like success after success, but really relationally, that distance, you know, I think that that happens so, so often. And, man. So now that we know kind of some of those signs and how it can look different for everybody, what would be that first step? And I know that they need to get your book, you know, which goes into much more detail than what we can cover here. But, like, what would be a first step? If they're listening to this and either they themselves are like they're describing me or they're like they're describing my spouse, what would you say would be the first step they need to take?

I think it's important to choose reality, to own reality. And how do you do that? What does that mean? Get in a quiet space. And by the way, if I say get in a quiet space and you say, oh, who's got the time? I'm talking directly to you now, right? Yeah, but get in a quiet space for five or 10 minutes and turn everything off and ask yourself, what's the state of my marriage? Do my kids, when they walk in my front door, do they head directly towards me for a hug, or do they head directly to the room and shut the door? And I know it's really hip and cool to say, oh, they're just being teens. That's absolute nonsense. That is 21st and 20th and 21st century insanity. Our children are not designed to hide from their parents. They're not. In fact, all that new research about your kids. Peers are their most important thing. That's because they have to. Because our parents are so distracted and so unplugged into their life and have outsourced every facet of our. Of our kids childhood that they have to. They have to lean into these other relationships. Of course I'm important, so be real. What is the state of your sex and intimacy with your spouse? What is the state of your job? Like driving up on Monday morning? So I think you have to choose reality and begin to own. And then the other big important thing is you've got to ask somebody else. So where this book got gnarly for me again, when you're a part of a publishing house and you have, like, my last book did really well. And they're like, all right, so we've done some SEO, and whenever Somebody says that you're like, oh, no, like. So we've surveyed America and here's what they want to know about. And I'm like, I want to write a metal record. And they're like, we need another pop record, man. It's kind of like that. And so I've been having this anxiety conversation for 20 years, y'.

All.

And I've told this story three other times. And so this is me, number four. I coming off a number one best selling book. My. My wife and I grew up. Our parents didn't have a lot. And so we're in a new space financially. My show has taken off in a cr. In a way that none of us expected to. It's. It's madhouse. And the thing I'm best at in the world, if you listen to my show, I'm not great at that. You can listen to it, be like, what's this guy doing? The thing I'm best at is being on a stage speaking. And that had taken off in a way that I never could have dreamt. And there was two speaking events that I really wanted to be a part of. And my manager called me over the Christmas break. I'm down in our basement exercising. And the manager calls and he goes, hey, I got some tough news. You got a second? And I was like, yeah, what is it? And he said, I got the speaking gig. And I start. I start yelling in my basement. Yeah, I'm cheering. And then he goes, and you know that other one? I go, yeah. And he goes, I got that one too. And so I am beside myself. Hang up the phone with him. And my wife comes downstairs into the basement. She says, what are you yelling about? And I said, I got these two whatever gigs. And her normal default setting when I'm acting my full anxious self is she will retreat. That's just kind of how she. She just backs up and we will circle around later and have the conversation. She didn't do that this time. For maybe the first time in our marriage, she headed directly towards me and got really close. And she said, I am watching my husband die in front of me. And then she made a circle with her hands and she said, the pie chart for how much I love you. And the pie piece inside that pie chart, that is how much money you make is full. It's full. And then she said, you can take these speaking gigs, do whatever you want, but do not lie to yourself and say, this is for me, this is for the kids or for our family. From this point forward, this is for your ego. And then she looked at me and said a phrase that I did not have a psychology for. She said, john, we have enough. And she walked away. She walked back upstairs, and that was her saying, I've been on this road with you before. I gave up my job for you last time. I have traded in my soul for this. And here we are again. I'm not doing this again. And it was a powerful moment to go, oh, no. So this book. About halfway through, I went and checked myself into a hotel and I wrote for a week. I was right. Writing a book. Very preachy, very at you. And I started over. And the book is very much me pulling up a stool next to you at the nacho bar and saying, hey, dude, we need to have. Like, I'm with you now. Yeah. And I realized I wasn't living this stuff either. And I teach it, and it was happening to me again. And so I tell you, you got to own reality. You got to choose reality. And you have to get connected. You have to have other people that you trust that will speak truth into your life. If that's a pastor, if that's a minister, if that's a therapist, or if that's a spouse or best friend that you trust, you got to have somebody else that can hold mirror up to you and say, you don't see what I'm seeing.

I love that. And I'm so glad. Like you said, it wasn't her go to, but she saw as. As a crucial, pivotal moment. She's like, I've got to speak this truth. Did things change? You know, did you make some adjustments after that?

Well, here's the swat. So I took the two gigs. I took them. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't have. I didn't. I didn't have. I don't have a plan B. I didn't know what enough was.

Sure, sure.

And in a. In a weird way. So this is the place when I. When I'm speaking to business owners especially, they're the ones that go, oh, so we just quit? We don't. No, no, no. I look at the world. We need, radically need a season of highly ambitious people going out to solve some of these major challenges, working together. I got two kids, and I got two young kids. I have fully invested in people going out and working really, really hard to solve some of these big challenges we have. But it all comes at a cost. And I am busier now right this second than I was during that time. But what's different is My wife and I sat down in June and said, all right, what's the next four months look like for us? We have two months where we're going to intentionally slow way down so I can build some relational equity, because come August 15th, we hit the gas hard because I got a national book to hit the road and go sell. And so, great, now we know that. And I spent extra time with kids and extra time with wife and extra time putting money aside so I could say no to some things. And all that to say is, now, dude, I'm running busier than ever. And we are completely in sync because we planned it. It's highly intentional, and there's a finish line somewhere. This isn't her body saying, oh, this is just the rest of your life. And this isn't my body going, okay, what's the next? What's the next? What's the next? And so actually stopping and being intentional and anchoring in turns off the anxiety alarms, because your body knows, oh, you're back in the driver's seat of your own life. Cool. I don't have to scream at you. You're driving, and you're driving intentionally. 150 miles an hour. Awesome. But we know that once we hit mile marker 10, we're going to go back to 55. Cool. Let's do that. And so we are plugged in and locked in. We're out running as fast as we can. And come October 20, when the first season out, we already have it on the books. We're going back to where we honeymooned in Austin, Texas, and we're gonna spend some time just staring off into space. And my body knows that. So there's no anxiety alarms. There's busy, there's a lot of stress, but it's not out of control chaos.

Yeah, that's. That's pacing. It is so good, guys. And this is. This has been one of the most meaningful conversations we've had on this podcast. And I know there are so many folks listening right now, and you're just nodding your head up and down like, my gosh, he's talking to me. He's talking about me. And there are solutions. There's help. You know, you don't have to stay in that breakneck pace. You know, you can take a step back and you can. You can redefine the pace. You can reconnect with your spouse. Because, listen, no amount of success outside the home is worth sacrificing your health or sacrificing success inside the home. And once you realize that and Once you start prioritizing your personal health, physical, mental, spiritual, your marital health, relationships with your kids, and then you're also together, making a plan to be at your best outside the home, too, you really can be healthy in all places. You can thrive in your career, and you can thrive at home, and you can do it without living in constant anxiety and stress. And I encourage everybody to get this book and to connect with Dr. John DeLoney on his show and all the places he is. He's a great follow on Instagram. Before we wrap up, I want him to tell you all the places that you can connect with him, but I encourage you to do that as a next step as well, and then to have these conversations with your spouse. It's one of the main reasons why we do what we do here at the Naked Marriage Podcast isn't to give you all the answers, but rather to put you in a place where you and your spouse can have some new conversations and the two of you and God can figure this out together. And I hope that today has sparked a need to have some conversations, maybe some of the most conversations you've ever had about your pace, about your health, and about what real success looks like and what you're. What you're wanting to do to get there.

So, yeah, man, I appreciate that. Hey, let me tell you this. I. I've spent the last, like I said, Last 20 years with scientists and nerds. I'm a nerd of nerds. And that's my. That's my gang. And also, all the nerd information in the world went right through my heart and out the back. Right. It didn't. So this book is written for. Not nerds. I'm conceding that world to the Andrew Hubermans of the world. They can have it. That's awesome. This book is for the mom who's exhausted. Yes. Who doesn't read a lot of books, who just needs a road map out. This is for the dad who's driving to work, either whether he's a plumber or he's a lawyer. And he says, I. This can't continue like this, and I don't have a plan B. This book is a simple road map, not towards not feeling anxious, but to healing your entire life from the inside out. So it's as simple as possible. It's a. It's a roadmap, and that's usually not my style. I like to just get up there and be like, let's rock and roll. And this is a. No. Here's a. Here's a step by step. Here's a map out of this nonsense.

Well, that's what we need. I mean, that is exactly what we need. And so how can people follow you? Where can they get the book?

You can get it@john deloney.com it releases October 3rd and it's in pre sale right now. And you all know this, when you write a book, presale means a lot. So if you, if you pre sale by the presale, it's 20 bucks. And I put a bunch of bribes in there, a bunch of extra stuff to bribe you to buy it early. But it comes out October 3rd and you can go to john deloney.com and pick it up and you can follow me on the Internet at John Deloney everywhere else.

Awesome. Well, this has been such a treat. And I know, I mean, man, we're going to have even more conversations about this. Like, truly, like it's one of those things where I think this is a conversation that individually need to always come back to. But in marriage, like, it's a great ongoing conversation, a good checkpoint in. So thank you so much for sharing with us. This was awesome.

And for those who are listening, guys, do us a favor and share this episode, this one in particular, I'm telling you, there are so many folks out there that are struggling in silence with these issues that we've talked about with anxiety, with this, with this unreasonable pace and stress and not knowing what to do next. And this simple 30 minute conversation we've had here could be a turning point for them. And so share it on social media, text it out to some folks. It will make a difference for them. And John, thank you again for all that you're doing. We're praying for you and cheering you on with this new book and with everything happening. So all the best.