The Enneagram and Marriage

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Hey. Welcome to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis. On this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. We're in a fun new series right now called Naked and Healthy, based on our brand new book, which you can get@nakedandhealthy.com Talking about health physically, mentally, spiritually and in your marriage. So kind of holistic health. And today we're going to do our first ever episode on the Enneagram. A lot of you've written and saying, I'm trying to understand the Enneagram. I'm this number. My spouse is this number. How do we get along? Maybe you've never heard of the Enneagram. Maybe you're an expert at it. Wherever you are in the process, stick around because we've got a great conversation that's going to help you understand yourself better, how God wired up you and help you understand your spouse better so that you can better relate to one another.

That's right. And so we have a special guest who is an expert when it comes to the Enneagram, and she's also a dear friend of ours. Her name is Kristen Barnett and she has a lot of experience in the mental health industry and she has graduate studies in counseling and counseling education. And so we are so excited to have Kristen Barnett joining. So let's dive in. Well, we are so excited to have our friend Kristen Barnett here to talk about the Enneagram, which many of you have written us over the course of doing this podcast and asked about. You know, how the Enneagram really matters when it comes to marriage. And Kristin is quite the expert on the Enneagram and I can't wait for you all to hear from her. So welcome, Kristen. We're so excited to have you.

Thank you. It's nice to see you virtually.

I know, I know. Well, can you. First of all, some people listening are like, what word did you just say? What is an Enneagram? Can you just kind of give us. I know there's a lot to it, but Kind of give us, you know, just a little bit about it.

Yeah. So the Enneagram, if you've seen anything about the Enneagram at first glance, a lot of people, especially, you know, the general evangelical population, might be initially turned off because it looks a little bit like maybe a demonic sign or something like that. And listen, I assure you it is not demonic. It is blessed by God. But so the Enneagram is actually, while it's grown in popularity over the last several years, it's actually a very ancient system. And it was originally inspired through the Greek population, but it grew in popularity in the 60s and 70s and then, you know, has really become part of pop culture recently. And the Enneagram is really a way of describing someone's personality. And what's unique about the Enneagram, it doesn't just talk about what we do and actions or what we think. What's unique about it is that it. It is all based on motivation. So why we do the things that we do. So you and I could do the same thing or be passionate about the same thing. We. But for very different reasons. And so for that we could be very different. Numbers on the Enneagram.

Right, That's. I love that. And so I know, like some listening. What were you going to say? Sweet. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

No, no. It's fascinating to me, like the whole. The whole process. I'm still a novice with the whole Enneagram. You know, I'm still even somewhat unsure if, even if I've even got my right number yet, because the Enneagram is a. Is a numbers based system. I always just tell people I scored a perfect hundred on it just to kind of.

They look at him like, what?

You have to be so proud of you.

Thank you. I'm an overachiever, but those personality types, right, are. It's a one through a nine. And each number corresponds to very specific personality traits and motivations. And so could you give us just kind of the brief overview of what, what each one of those represents? So those who are listening, maybe they've never taken an Enneagram test or gone through an assessment, but even in your description might be able to pull out a few things and say, oh, that might be me, or that might be my wife, that might be my husband, and we can start the conversation there.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So before I run down the types, I will tell you that there are no bad numbers and there's no best number. So just like all of humanity, there is darkness and light with Every number. So we all have our struggles, right? And things that we do really well or maybe areas that we could work on.

So.

So there is no bad number, everybody. Usually the first question I get is, what's the best number? I want to be that one. And there is no bad number. And then, so it's important to remember that each one has darkness and light associated with it. But we want to focus on how we can grow, grow with the Lord and grow in our personal development and really accentuate and bring out the best in our personalities as we serve the Lord. So that's what I love about the Enneagram is that, you know, and I'll run down the numbers, but there's basic characteristics for each one. But again, when you're thinking about what number you are, even perhaps what number your. Your spouse might be, it's important to think about motivation. So you might have to have some conversations to get down to the bottom of it. But you are right, Dave. There are nine numbers. And the first one I will tell you as I name these two. Some of them have different kinds of names, depending what resources you dip into. So I'll just go by the names that I know them as. The one can be known as the reformer or the perfectionist. This number is very unique in a certain way. They are the only number on the Enneagram that has a constant voice in their head that says, you are not good enough. You could have done that better. You need to do better next time. And it's all the time about everything. These people are very principled, they are very purposeful, and they have a lot of self control. So I will tell you this number. I was in a room full of people taking a class on it as we discovered our numbers and the people who were ones in the room. When we reviewed the characteristics, they started to cry because they didn't know that there were other people like them in the world. So the ones are very, very unique. They are perfectionists and they go by very much what is right and wrong is kind of their mantra. Okay. Number two, a personal favorite is the helper. The helper is very caring interpersonally. They can be very demonstrative, generous. They are people pleasers. As I mentioned, each number has darkness and light. The light with a helper is that they like to help. They find value in helping others in serving, whether it's their spouse, a friend, they want to do for you. The darkness of a two is that sometimes they can be a little manipulative and they use their desire to serve in a way that kind of brings it back to them and serves them in the end. So sometimes in marriage this number can be like, I'm serving you, serving, serving you. And then you're like, oh, well, why aren't they doing the same thing for me? So that can be a little bit of the darkness of the struggle with the helper. But I love helpers and I am definitely drawn to them. So if I didn't say that already, number three. The three is the achiever, or also known as the performer. The achiever is success oriented. They are very pragmatic, they're adaptive. They excel at pretty much everything that they do. They're very image conscious. And some of the darkness with three is that they, in their core, they fear that, that people will not accept them for who they truly are. So as a result, they kind of try to be all things to all people. You know, they can talk to the janitor or the CEO. Maybe they have different clothes that they wear depending on the situation. So they're very malleable. They can really be very flexible and go with the flow. They are achievers, as the name suggests. They love to achieve. They love to do things and be top performers. So a lot of these people you will find in sales, in high CEO roles. This is typically what you would find. My husband's a three of note. So I'm sure we can come back to that. The four is the individualist. The individualist is the rarest number in all of human population. As it suggests, this number is very sensitive. They feel all the feelings. They are always in their feelings. They can be very expressive or dramatic. They can also have a hard time coming out of those emotions and thinking logically. One of the beautiful things about fours is that they are extremely creative. These are your artists, your musicians, the people that make the world beautiful. They are fors. Part of their darkness is that they may do things for the simple fact of attempting to be different, to be unique and maybe even contrarian at times. But when unleashed in light, they can really bring so much beauty to the world. Number five is the investigator. The investigator, as it suggests, is your enneagram number that researches to the nth degree. If they're going to buy a new printer, they're going to look at all the printers. They're going to research all of the things about the printer. They will be an expert on printers. This type is very cerebral, very perceptive, very innovative. The darkness with fives is that they can be very secretive and sometimes isolated. They tend to not really be. Not that they're not friendly. They have a hard time at times with friends, making friends or being out with a lot of friends, they tend to want to be kind of by themselves on that. And because they're very cerebral and perceptive, type six is the loyalist. And as it suggests, they are very loyal. These are great friends. One of my best friends is a six. She is so loyal, so constant. They are very committed, they are oriented to security. So sixes their darkness can be that they are very anxious and that they fear the worst case scenario. A 6 is always prepared for the worst case scenario. What if we're driving down the road and something flies off the road and crashes into my windshield? They're always thinking of that, which contributes to their anxiety, of course. And so they live their life in a way that is very thoughtful but sometimes, you know, almost obsessive. To prevent something unique about the loyalist is that they are this way typically because they've actually lived the worst case scenario. So it's easy for them to go to that place because they've experienced it to some degree. And then the seven. The seven is another fun number. It is the enthusiast. So Sevens are busy bees. They are your fun loving type. They are spontaneous, versatile. The darkness is that they can be distractible. These are your add people that have a hard time paying attention for more than five minutes. They can be very scattered or disorganized. They are not here for a long time, but they are here for a good time. That is the seven. Yeah. So these can be great friends. Obviously they're always up for an adventure. They're just looking to when is the next party? When is the next thing? We're scheduling the next vacation. Sevens probably struggled the most in pandemic because they didn't have a lot of options. So the sevens check on your seven friends. Okay. And then eight. I am an enneagram 8, so I will try to keep it brief. But it is known as the challenger. This personality can be described as powerful or dominating. We are typically very self confident, decisive, willful at times confrontational. It takes a lot to scare us or intimidate us. And as such, we tend to come off very intimidating without meaning to or wanting to do that. And so challengers are very comfortable taking charge. They are very comfortable leading. Their mantra sometimes can be said like lead, follow or get out of the way. That is kind of the thought process with challengers. We don't have to be in charge, but if you're going to be in charge, then Do a good job. So that's a little bit of the challenger. Some light with challengers. I feel like we don't have a whole lot of light. But challengers are also very focused on justice. We love social justice. We're always looking out for the underdog. We love to advocate for others. We feel very passionate about that. And it's usually for a reason. Right. Why we feel that way. So that's a little bit about the eight and then the nine. The nine is the Peacemaker. The Peacemaker is easygoing. They are very receptive and reassuring. They're very agreeable as employees or even as spouses. This number is just steady Eddy. Like, they always come to work, they're always there. But they also could have a tendency for complacency. And then at their worst, I would say slothfulness is like their super, super darkness where they don't move. They just want to sit and do their thing. But the Peacemaker makes a great friend. They make great employees. They're very reliable. But somewhere along the way, they got the message, usually as a child, do not rock the boat. So their struggle is going to be that they tend to take all the little things, pack it inside, and then not address it because they don't want to rock the boat. And then they have a tendency to want to explode because they stuffed everything inside. So that's a little bit about each number, one through nine.

It's so good. And it gets my wheels turning, even thinking about my own kit. Like our kids, right?

Yeah.

You know, like, where do they fit in there? Like you said, enthusiast. And I immediately thought of our son Connor, which is so funny. I don't know. I'm sure there's books on, like, the Enneagram and children, so that. That's for another. Another time. But it just got my mind going on that. So let's bring it back to kind of marriage, you know, because there's a lot of different ways to look at the Enneagram and, like, how it's helpful. And I know for a lot of in professional ways, like with working with certain employees or who to hire, like, what kind of Enneagram type would you want to hire for this position or, you know, what kind of Enneagram is your boss, because what's going to resonate the most with them? So I've heard it a lot in the professional sense. But when I have listened to podcasts about the Enneagram or read anything about it, I always think, man, there's a lot that this could do. To help marriages, to understanding your spouse and understanding yourself well, and not trying.

To change each other. Not try to make your spouse feel guilty for their personality because they're not wired exactly like you, as if their personality is wrong because it's different than yours. God made us each exactly how we are, but also understanding and having compassion for. Okay. They're wired up that way. I'm wired up this way. So how do we navigate that? You know, that together? I think there are all kinds of, you know, benefits of just knowing this and understanding this. And as Kristen was explaining that, I'm sure you, like me, were listening and listening for yourself in there.

Yeah.

Trying to figure out what your spouse might be. Bringing it back to the marriage part, though, Kristen, what. What types of pairings within, like, couplehood marriages, you know, what type of pairings? I don't know. I mean, I'm just interested. Are there certain pairings that might argue more? Certain pairings that might have maybe get along better? Yeah. Just like every personality type has its own kind of personality. Are there certain pairings that have a certain dynamic personality once they're together? I'd be interested in that, yeah.

Yeah, for sure. And obviously, there's variances, right? Like, not every nine is created the same, you know, so there's obviously variances. So I have been married for 13 and a half years. I was in graduate school when I first was exposed to the Enneagram, and we had. We were newlyweds, and I was like, oh, gosh, this is no bueno. We are the aggressive types. So my husband and I are that combination, actually, that. He is an enneagram 3. I'm an enneagram 8. And great numbers. We get a lot done, for sure. But we are both in the aggressive stance, Right. Like, we don't have a problem with confrontation, which can be good because we settle things. Like, we get it out, we talk about it. I don't think twice really about saying, hey, this isn't working, or, I need your help here, or whatever. But it can result in, you know, more bickering, maybe, than the average couple. So threes and eights. We are that couple. So we definitely. We have our fair share of disagreements. And, you know, I will say, even despite that, there's beauty in it. And it can definitely be a strength, because when we fight for each other and fight together for each other, it is such a strength, you know, and it. For me, well, of course, it's hard for me to imagine being married to someone else that's different. But when I think about other personality types. I'm like, well, at least he's fighting for me and for us, you know, rather than against each other. So I think that's important. I will say a really great resource if you're interested in diving into this more or really anything. All things Enneagram is the Enneagram Institute. Their website is top notch. And you can even type in like, how does an Enneagram 5 work with an Enneagram 1? There's conflict resolution tips on there. I use it literally almost daily, especially if I'm going to have a hard conversation with someone or I'm nervous about it, I'll dig into their number if I know it and try to give some resources to myself to help guide me in that conversation.

And that's so good. I think one important distinction to make here for those who are listening. I think there's a myth in our culture that like, oh well, I married the wrong person because our personalities don't mesh because I'm this and he's that and those numbers don't go together. And the whole tool of the Enneagram here and why we're talking about it now is regardless of what number you are, regardless of what number your spouse is like, every couple can have a thriving marriage. Every single couple. And so it's. And every couple, it requires work. It requires work. And so these are just tools we're trying to give you to help you and your spouse both understand your God given wiring, to celebrate your uniqueness and then to do what Kristen has talked about. Finding unique ways to understand how you know your predispositions based on your personality type and your spouse's, how you can best manage that and celebrate that in a way that's going to create healthy communication and continue to grow in your relationship with one another, you know?

Absolutely. And I love Kristen, how you described how every personality type has kind of their light and their darkness. And that's just us being human beings. You know, we have things that, that are, are really good about us and things that are hard places, you know. And so I think that, you know, as, as you all are watching this and listening to this and you kind of, maybe you already know your Enneagram type or you're trying to figure it out and then, you know, your spouse is. I think we could learn a lot by really trying to play like bring out the light in our spouse and not toy with the darkness. Not like poke the darkness, so to speak, where you like kind of look into, to just make things Harder for them or try to make them feel down. Because I think so many times it's like, we know those places. We know our spouses really well. We know what's gonna make them, you know, bring out the best in them, but we also know what's gonna really get them going. And I think sometimes when we're feeling bad and we're not having a good day, we'll go and we'll say the very thing that we know they don't want to hear. And it's like playing, you know, it's kind of like reigniting the darkness in them and bringing out that kind of dark side instead of really bringing out the best in them. And so I. That's what I love about the. As I've learned more, because I think that you do understand yourself more and your spouse more so you know how to better communicate.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think one word that I use a lot when I talk about the Enneagram, and I can't believe I haven't even said it yet, is empathy. And as you become a student of the Enneagram or, you know, there are a lot of other tools. For me, the Enneagram is just my favorite. I've connected to it the most, but it has helped me create empathy within myself, for others and for myself as I struggle and work with the Enneagram and work to smooth out my rough edges, that having compassion and empathy for myself. Because a lot of the numbers. There is a reason why people are that way, and there's definitely nurture, nature. I believe that it's really a combination. God creates us to be something, and also life happens and humanity happens, and we have experiences, trauma, pain, that really shape people. And when you can get a hold of that. And a lot of what I love about the Enneagram is when you can really get with someone, your spouse especially, and get in a vulnerable space spot where you can say, well, actually, you know, when I was a child, my parents just really praised me every time I got good grades. And that's all the only time I got praise. And so I just. I found that if I want to get love, which we all want to get love, then this is what I do to receive love. And when you can have that kind of insight into yourself and your spouse, what a gift you can give your marriage, your other relationships, to have that kind of understanding of, oh, wow, they're not crazy. This is why they are that way, you know, and it creates empathy for the other person instead of aggravation, you know, Absolutely.

And I love that. You know, I've actually. Just for those who are watching and listening, I've heard Kristen speak on this before, and when I was listening on a previous podcast where she was talking about the Enneagram, it really struck me when you were talking about the parts of our childhood, because we all have awesome parts of our childhood, but we also have harder places in our childhood. And as I've been trying to understand myself in light of the Enneagram, it really kind of struck me with the Achiever. Because I think the reason I am more of an achiever is, I mean, I like getting stuff done. I like achieving things. But when I was growing up in my home, and I love my parents and my mom would say this till this day, but grades were everything. I mean, achievement was everything. Winning the trophy at the dance recital was everything. And I think in my parents mind it was, we're building, you know, we're raising successful daughters. But. But some kids take it on more than other kids. And I feel like. And I've actually been in therapy for this for many years, actually, like just feeling. Feeling that kind of. That I have to achieve in order to have love. And I've come through that, and I've been healed of that. But it can. It can really breed some unhealthy things. And so when it comes to that particular type, you know, when I start to fall into that mindset, I kind of check myself and I'm like, okay, wait a minute.

Why?

Why am I doing this? Why do I want to achieve this? Is it because I feel like God's leading me to do this? Or is it because I feel like I'm gonna get somebody's love or approval? Because if it's for love or approval from someone else, then that's probably the wrong motivation. And so I think in that way, the Enneagram can really help, you know, help individually, you know, us to have a deeper understanding of ourselves. You know, as we've been kind of talking through this, like I said, Dave has not listened to as many podcasts or read as much about the Enneagram as I have. And I'm far, far from an expert. And that's exactly why we have Kristin on here. But I've tried to kind of help him discover his number. And as we've been reading and stuff, I think he's a 2, because Dave's natural posture in most situations is to help. And I think he's much more like his mom and his personality, and she's very much a Helper. But when I describe it, we were going through kind of the description and he's like, I don't know. And so then as we were looking at it, there's this concept, and I want to briefly touch on this, of wings. And people, you know, listening to this are going to be like, what? But if you look it up, there's this concept of wings. Kristin, can you kind of touch on what that is?

Yeah. So wings. So first of all, I didn't mention this either. When you're trying to self identify your number or working through it with your spouse, it's important to think of yourself at around the age of 20, that is when you're at your kind of rawest personality type. And so I will say as a caveat, you know, not counting severe trauma at that time, substance abuse, that would be exceptions. But generally speaking, around 20 is kind of your raw personality. And then what happens is, and this is very general, like generalized assumptions, is that as you move toward your 30s, you see, you know, hopefully we're growing, right? We're changing every day and we're growing in the Lord. We're growing as individuals. And as you grow, as you progress and maybe chill out, the older you get, you develop a wing which is one of the numbers beside your number. So it can't be like eight wing two. It has to be. If I'm an eight, I can only wing seven or nine. So a wing typically starts showing up in your 30s, and it's where you can take on traits, typically the positive traits of a number beside you. And then generally, again, very generally, as you age, Maybe in your 40s or 50s, you tend to develop that other wing, which is kind of explains why people tend to kind of level out with age. Either the out of it or just tired. Yeah, but it's one of the numbers beside your number. And so if you think about like the wings of a bird as you develop one wing into your 20s and 30s, and then your second wing maybe in your 30s or 40s, and then, you know, a bird flies with two wings. Right. Or else they're just like flying in a circle. So that's kind of the concept of wings. And generally when you think about it, it's the positive characteristics of that number.

You know, you touched on this real briefly and I smiled because I know you, you're my friend. But she said, you know, eights really stand for social justice and they're really drawn to finding the underdogs and really helping them and standing up for them. And Kristin is Literally living that out. And I want her to briefly talk about an amazing ministry that she does that we've actually participated in. I'd love to actually go with her to Africa, but can you tell us about it?

Yes. Thank you so much for asking that. So I am the founder and CEO of the nonprofit 28 Bold. So the number two 8 Bold and we do water relief in Africa. It started, it all was bred out of a short term missions trip that I thought I always wanted to go to Africa, but this is my one and done. Let me check it off my list. And God had other plans for sure. So I came back and was wrecked. My life has never been the same. It has literally changed our family. It's changed so much about what we do and how we operate as a family. But 28 Bold. We partner with churches to use water resources as a way to develop community and as an outreach. Obviously, water is a very basic need for people. And if you know anything about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you can just forget about talking about salvation or employment or any of these higher level issues if people are not fed and have water. And so it's a way. And I love that there's so many times in scripture where, you know, God literally says if you give a cup of cold water in my name, and I love that because, you know, I can be a little bit literal. And that's pretty literal. I don't think he's necessarily saying for everyone. There's also, you know, some implications there. But you know, I just find that when you can meet a need of a person, you create opportunity to have impact in their life and create relationship. And so one of the things that we're committed to is not just doing as many wells or projects as humanly possible. We're really focused on relationships in these communities. And I talk to my friends, literally, I mean today it's so crazy, like texting all day long throughout the day with them because that's when change happens. Change doesn't happen from a one and done. Change happens in relationship. And so when we can offer this gift, we just find that it has radically changed these communities. And so, yeah, thanks for asking about it. But it's 28 Bold on Instagram and you can find us@28bold.com as well.

Oh, that was just so good. Thank you, Kristin, so much for joining us and thank you all so much for listening and watching and we will see you next time.

Sam.