The His & Hers Trap

Pride is really the root cause of every divorce one way or the other. And that might sound like a shocking statement or a weird statement, but pride is just that mindset that says, my way's the right way and I don't have to listen to anybody else. And if you disagree with me, you're wrong. And pride is the root of nearly every sin when you get down to it. It's that voice that says, I'm gonna do things my way. That old Frank Sinatra song, I'm gonna do it my way. And that's a terrible mindset for a marriage because your way isn't usually going to always work with our way. It needs to be our way. What does it look like for us to do this together, for us to do this with unity? Hey, friends, welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We're Dave and Ashley Willis. On this podcast we undress the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. And we are in part two of a nine part series we're doing on the nine habits that can lead to divorce and how to avoid those habits or change them if you've adopted them. And so today's habit is going to be on what we call the his and hers trap. And I think it's going to be something that, well, I don't know, hopefully help you and your spouse create some more unity in your marriage and maybe avoid falling into one of the most common traps in modern marriage.

That's right. And before we dive into this episode, I want to let you know about our premium subscription. If you love this podcast, you've been listening for a long time, but you don't necessarily like the ads. I think this is for you. And you can go to nakedmarriage.supercast.com for more information. I believe it's only $5 a month. And all of that money not only gives you content that is commercial free and also some additional content that you will never hear on this podcast and only hear in a premium subscription. But that money goes to support marriages all over the world, to support healthy marriages and the content that we put out there. So you definitely might want to check that out again. That website is naked marriage supercast.com now let's dive in to today's episode.

I'm excited about this topic today. The second habit of our nine part series, the nine habits that lead to divorce. And the second habit is one that I think is so easy to fall into. And it's what we call the his and hers trap. And the his and hers trap essentially looks like this, it's when instead of using a word like ours to describe things, it becomes mine and yours, his and hers, his friends, her friends, his career, her career, his dreams, her dreams, his time, her time, his money, her money, his debts, her debts, his problems, her problems. And it's so easy to fall into that. But really, the his and hers trap is the language of divorce. It's dividing things out into his and hers, instead of the language of marriage, which is combining and unifying, where we're saying, it's ours, it's our dreams, our time, our issues, our struggles, our money. And if you find yourself falling into the mind, yours, his, hers trap, even in just the way that you're talking about things, then maybe this episode hopefully could spark some new thoughts and new conversations with you and your spouse about how can we break out of that and start unifying instead of dividing.

Absolutely. I want to say, too, where I often hear couples kind of who are, you know, falling into this kind of an indicative phrase, if you're wondering, well, how do I know if I'm in this? You know, is if you catch yourself saying, well, can I just have something of my own? You know what I'm saying? And on the surface, that doesn't seem.

That sounds reasonable.

Sounds totally reasonable. Right. And because certainly, I mean, you still are an individual. Right. You know, we have unity, but not uniformity. We're going to have things of our own. But I think where we're putting a foot down and telling ourselves and maybe even telling our spouse, like, this is mine, that's just. It gets really toxic real fast because it kind of feels like a slap in the face to your spouse. Even if it is something that maybe only you enjoy or a hobby that you have or whatever it is, kind of pushing them out of it and saying, like, I just want something of my own. I don't want you to know, the friends at this place that I go.

To or what we talk about or.

What we talk about, Right? This is for me. This is for me. And it's just a lot of me, my own. And, you know, you guys, if you've read our Naked Marriage book, we go into this concept of the love seat and the me seats and, you know, the love seat. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna belabor the point. You can get the book or you can go back and listen to previous episodes, but the love seats where, you know, we're working everything together, we're sharing everything. It's never his problem, her problem. It's always Our problem. But then, you know, that's the love seat. But the me seats are where we're doing this, his and her thing. And so you'll find yourself thinking more about what you want, what you need, what you deserve, and not considering your.

Spouse and how all the struggles are the other spouse's fault. If only they would do this. If only they would do that.

Right. And then I wouldn't have to feel this way, or I wouldn't have this need to have this other. This part of me that I don't want to share with them because it's mine. And you guys, it's just a place where pride is just rampant, and we don't even realize it because we're so focused on us and how this is ours that we don't see it. And that's what pride does to our. Kind of our minds and our hearts.

Yeah.

And stuff like this.

Pride is really the root cause of every divorce, one way or the other. And that might sound like a shocking statement or a weird statement, but pride is just that mindset that says, my way's the right way and I don't have to listen to anybody else. And if you disagree with me, you're wrong. And pride is the root of nearly every sin when you get down to it. It's that voice that's, I'm going to do things my way. That old Frank Sinatra song, I'm going to do it my way. And that's a terrible mindset for a marriage because your way isn't usually going to always work with our way. It needs to be our way. What does it look like for us to do this together, for us to do this with unity? And as Ashley said, yeah, you're still an individual. You're still going to have, you know, certain things you like, certain things that you do. But the happiest couples, the healthiest couples look for every way possible to bring their worlds together. And Ashley and I, right now, we work together, which is a huge benefit. Makes it easier. But. But there have been lots of different times when we didn't. Where, you know, I would go to one office and she was, you know, she would be somewhere else, either home with the kids or teaching at a school or, you know, she's had different jobs through the years before we were doing this. But even in those settings where the work we were doing during the day was. Was in different places and different teams, we made it a point to stay connected through the day. We would meet up for lunch whenever we could. We would call each other or text through the day. We would stay connected. We would try to know what was happening in each other's worlds. We would know the people in each other's. In each other's networks and. And just. Just really stay connected and make sure that people in our own careers, in our own offices, knew how important our marriage was and knew that this wasn't a compartmentalized area of our life, but our marriage permeated all of it. And I think you've got to think that way.

You know, when I think back on those seasons where either I was at home with the kids and you were working somewhere else, or we had different jobs, it did take a little more effort than now, you know, it did. We had to be really intentional about getting together for lunch. And, you know, when I was teaching, that's not always conducive when you're a teacher. You have lunch with the teachers, or you're even maybe watching kids, like, in the cafeteria as they're eating. Your kind of monitor. And I remember Dave, you know, was a pastor at the time, and he had Fridays off, and he would watch our youngest on. Because he didn't have preschool that day. I think he only had it four days a week. But you would intentionally bring him to school, and you would have lunch with me. And not only was it just to have time with me, but. But I loved how Dave could get to know all of my colleagues, because I would. I'd come home and talk about, you know, what. What went on, and my colleagues and just different things. And I taught at a Christian school, and so I would even have share prayer requests with Dave that I knew, you know, wasn't, like, something that was a private thing for this person. And I would say, like, let's pray for this person. And so Dave would get to know these people. And it really kept us connected, because I remember before I took that teaching job, I'd had a long season of staying at home, and. And I was really concerned about us being able to connect. But I think that because we were willing to do things maybe a little bit differently, and sometimes things that were inconvenient, you know, I'm sure it would have been a lot easier for Dave to just stay at home with our little one and not have to fool with coming to school, you know, you had to load him up. You had to, you know, get everything together and work through different things. And you could have just took an easy, you know, morning or afternoon, but instead, you. You really made sure that you catered to you know, coming to school that day, like that was the main thing you were doing that day. And it meant the world to me. And it really kept us close, especially in that really, it was a really busy season. And I love that you're willing to do that.

Well, it's just. It's about effort. It's just making the effort. I think that's the difference maker so often in marriage is just being willing to go that extra mile and say, it might be easier to sit at home, but what's really better for our marriage, let's make that effort and let's stay connected. And it could be as simple as making that extra phone call to check in or that extra text. I know during a similar season when I was working in a church office and, you know, Ashley was. I can't remember if you were at home or working, but that part really doesn't matter. We would stay connected. We would call each other. I'd call through the day, and the lady in the office next to me would notice that I would call in with Ashley on the day and she was married herself, and she would said, man, you guys talk throughout all the day. She said that. That just seems weird to me. And I laughed and I said, well, what the world calls normal in marriage seems broken to me, so I'd rather be weird than normal. And if it's weird to talk, then we're just. We're going to talk. And I love. And on top of that, I love staying connected. I want to know what's happening in her world, and I want her to know what's happening in mine. So I don't just roll in at the end of the day and I'm too tired and I'm out of words, and I don't feel like talking or telling her what's going on. So I just kind of grunt answers when she's asking how my day was and I zone out and turn on SportsCenter. I want to know that through the day we've stayed connected. So by the time that I get home, we're pretty much caught up on what's happened. And we can spend that time still doing some recap, but also just engaging in the moment and making sure that we're fully present with one another.

And I know for us, just practically speaking, y' all know we have four boys, and so it was a lot easier for us to connect through the day via text or calls. And. And it, again, it's going to look, the frequency of this and how you do this is going to look different for every couple, you know, and maybe it's just once through the day for you, and that's fine. We're not saying like that we're the standard. You know, this is just what worked for us. But I know that with having the four boys we both, when we would come home, you know, it's our boys wanting our attention. And because we had been connecting through the day, we didn't feel like, oh, no, now we're not going to get to talk. You know, we would give that attention to our boys until we put him to bed, and then we would talk, you know, more about what we had connected with throughout the day. But it really helped to bring a lot of balance so that we could make sure that we are prioritizing our marriage, even in the busy season of raising young children. And so, you know, there's a lot of ways that you can do this. But I think, like Dave said, just to reiterate what he said, I think just making the effort and talking to each other and saying, how can we become more unified? You know, I feel like we kind of have these two separate lives going on, and I don't feel like we're as connected as I'd like to be. All. What are some practical steps we could take to connect more and then make it happen and then come back and monitor and adjust as needed? Because different seasons are going to bring different challenges. You know, we. We certainly know that we've been married 21 years. It's. It's not always look the same, but I think that just being willing to make necessary changes and make sure that you are connecting consistently is that that's the key. The Burlington Coat event is back. Buy a coat now through November 29th and get $5 off your merchandise purchase of 25 or more from December 6th through December 24th. Plus, Burlington is donating 50,000 new coats to help those in need nationwide through our partnership with Delivering Good. We've been keeping you warm for over 50 years. We'll see you at our coat event, Burlington Deals brands.

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Yeah, the consistency is so key. In any part of life, consistency is key. I mean, if you want to get healthy, it's what you do consistently with exercise or diet. If you want to get healthy financially, it's what you're doing consistently with your money. But if you want to get healthy in your marriage, what are you doing consistently? And so talk about those habits. And if the habits you have now have got you divided into the his and hers trap, you know, it's his stuff, her stuff. Then break out of that and say, what would it look like for us to forge some new habits together, maybe a new hobby together where we can stay connected? Ashley's handed me some water because.

All in real time, you guys, because.

My voice, I guess he's got a.

Little froggy going on there in the throat, I think.

There we go. Somehow it got worse. I drank water, and it got worse. I think I'm just nervous because a living legend is in the studio with us right now in the midst of. Pastor Jimmy Evans is here.

I know.

And so I'm a little flustered because, I mean, the legend himself is in the building. We're getting ready to interview. We're getting ready to interview him. So stay tuned for that interview. But let me just give a plug. If you're not reading the books, Jimmy Evans, listening to the Tipping Point podcast, the Marriage Today podcast, and learning from this guy, you're missing out, because there's no better marriage content anywhere on earth wealth of knowledge than what this amazing man.

That's right.

Has produced.

Yes. So we're honored to have him in our midst. And that interview is coming up next. But to talk a little bit more about the his and hers dynamic, sweetie, what would you say? I think this is the most difficult dynamic, and we have friends in our life who are living this, and we've tried to, you know, help them through different seasons where. Where this is. This is the issue. But what would you say to a couple where one of them recognizes that there's a his and hers dynamic, and they're like, we're not connecting. I feel like we're like just, you know, these ships passing, you know, in the night is. Is a common phrase. And, you know, so one of them recognizes it and longs for that connection, but the other one is like, no, you knew I was like this when we got married. I like having my own stuff. I shouldn't have to come and unpack, you know, all the stuff that, you know, throughout the day, because that's just wears me out. And I'm not cheating on you, so you shouldn't worry about this. So they just kind of say those things and kind of keep pushing, right?

Yeah. You're gonna have to just deal with it.

Yeah. What would you say to a couple who's dealing with that?

Well, it's a great question. Earlier in this. This talk, you referenced something we've done at an exo event and also in the Naked Marriage, which is the. The Love seat, Me seat. Visual. And that love seat you talked about, being in that together is where you're unified. But one dynamic we didn't mention in this podcast is where one person is sitting in that love seat and one spouse is in the me seat. And that represents the one. Like what you just described, that dynamic. One spouse is saying, I'm doing everything I can to fight for this marriage, and I feel like you're over there doing your own thing. So I'm, I have that we mentality, that us mentality, and you have a mine and yours mentality. And so while you're there alone in the, in the love seat, continue to pray, continue to pursue your spouse, continue to praise what they're doing right, continue to invite them to join you in opportunities that could create more unity, continue to share your heart for what you desire your marriage to be. But try to do it in a non critical way because people tend to respond, yeah, if, if, if it's always coming across as criticism or nagging or, well, you're never, you're never doing this. It's going to push your spouse further away more often than not because they're going to feel like, well, I just can't win, so of course I'm going to just go do my own thing. It doesn't justify that person going to do their own thing. But as far as it depends on you to create the most inviting environment possible for them to want to join you in conversation and dreaming, envisioning and building new hobbies and activities together. Maybe try to plan a trip that the two of you could go on, maybe make plans to come to one of our exo marriage events, but do something intentionally just to create an opportunity for, for there to be more. More of that oneness.

Exactly. You know, our friends that I kind of briefly mentioned, I remember they've dealt with this a lot. And a lot of it's a personality difference and kind of both, you know, and the wife who's in that love seat really fighting for the marriage, she recognizes this, but they have different personalities. And I remember specifically she said that he's just obsessed with work. I'm here at home. And now she has a part time job outside the home. But he's just not willing to keep connecting with her. And so she started doing a list, you guys, for things that she wanted to talk about with him when he got home and you. All that backfired real fast. I mean, it made it even worse. He was like, you mean, I'm gonna go work all day and you're gonna work some, and we're gonna come home, and then I have a list to go over. And it just did not land. And she's like, she talked to me, she said, ashley, I just don't know what to do, because this is the kicker is that she sees the value in connection, and he just doesn't. And she doesn't know how to convince him. And it's been really hard. I mean, these are two people that love the Lord. They love each other, they both work hard, they love their kids. I mean, they're doing all these right things. But she just feels like every time she tells him, like, just please, you know, do something with me, that it's like, it's such a chore for him. And so I remember during COVID like many people, you know, had to, he ended up working from home. And I remember she kind of texted me and was like, will you pray for us? Because I think this could be a great opportunity to grow closer. But what ended up happening is he shut himself in a room in the house and was like, no, this is my work time. Leave me alone. And so it made her feel even more alone in that love seat. And I just, like, this is an ongoing thing. My heart just breaks for people in that dynamic, because it's not that, like, I mean, he's clearly. He's not cheating on her. He's a good provider. He does a lot of things right. But he has convinced himself that how he feels about connection is the one and only right way, which is pride.

Which is so much pride talked about that that's. That's the root where all sin really takes root. And that what is. What unravels marriages is that mindset.

That's a huge blind spot. Yeah, huge blind spot.

It's. I'm doing it my way, and that's. You're going to have to deal with it. But instead of taken on that pride mentality, which says, well, I don't need to talk that much, so you shouldn't either. Or, I don't need sex that much, so you shouldn't either. Or, you know, I don't need this, so you shouldn't either. So in any way that your spouse is different from you, there's this prideful assumption that they are wrong when God wired them up with the needs that they have and the desires that they have. And in marriage, you have the amazing privilege of serving each other's needs. And instead of just saying, well, I don't need it, so you shouldn't need it either, or you're going to have to deal, because I don't want to mess with that. But to say I've got a unique opportunity to serve my spouse's needs in this area and to be that emotional support that they need. And in doing that, in serving them in that way, we're going to grow closer together. And I'm going to be blessed, too. Even though I might not think I have the same need for it that they do, just by me meeting them in that place, serving them in that way, the marriage is going to thrive as a result. And so take on that posture, take on that. That mentality and have honest conversations with each other about what are the parts of our marriage where we have kind of polarized and gotten into that trap of his and hers, mine and yours instead of ours, and how could we come together in those specific areas with more unity?

Absolutely. And just to mention this real quick before we close, I think a huge area where this happens a lot is finances. And, you guys, we have full episodes about this. We have, you know, Seed time, the experts from Seed Time in a previous episode that talk about this just practically speaking, but, you know, don't let that be the. The like, you're. You're on the same page and everything, but yet you never talk about money. Because there really shouldn't be any subject that you know or part of your marriage that is off limits or that that is the his and hers dynamic, because we need to. We need to give all of ourselves, and that includes finances. But I do think that's the one caveat that people are like, yeah, I'll give it all. But no, no, but not that my money's my money, you know?

Yeah.

And it's like, ooh, that is. You guys has to divorce. I mean, like, we're talking about the nine habits that leads to divorce. The separation of finances is literally a legal thing that happens there. Okay. And so just gotta have. I know I'm stepping on toes here. I know it.

Step.

Family members, toes, stepping on. Okay, I'd get it, like. And I've had debates. I've had debates with people over this, but let me just tell you, there are. There probably are some very unique scenarios where there's some separation of finances for business reasons or whatever. But I would even say in order to keep the marriage strong, you still have to know what's going in there. There can't be these secret places of his and hers, even when it comes to your finances.

No, it's all ours.

It's all ours.

It's our debt.

It's really God's.

And it's our money.

It's really all God.

It's all God's. We're just temporary managers, temporary stewards of it. But we manage it together in unity. And you got to keep that in mind. That's such a good point. Point. And like Ashley said, go back and listen to those previous episodes. If money is a tension point for you, there are a lot of resources@exomarriage.com specifically on that topic. So check that out. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in. We appreciate you. If you're not, if you're not already, follow all the resources@xomarriage.com you can also connect with Ashley and me on Instagram Ave and Ashley Willis and write us there. We'd be happy to try to get back in touch with you.

And my love, yes, I also wanna mention, you may not know that we have actually a premium subscription where you don't even have to hear ads and you get additional content and you need to, if you wanna join that, if you're not already part of it, go to nakedmarriage.super cast.com we'll put that in the show notes as well. But you can go there and get additional content that you will never hear on the Naked Marriage podcast. On the regular Naked Marriage podcast. Good stuff, behind the scenes stuff and interviews. We do additional interviews. It's really awesome. So definitely check that out.

And those few bucks a month for that not only gives you premium access, but it also supports the the ministry of Exo Marriage which is helping build stronger marriages and families all over the world. And we appreciate your support. God bless you guys. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time.

Bye guys.