Thriving in Marriage by Embracing Your Differences

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Hello, and welcome back to the Naked Marriage Podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we address the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And we are going to talk about another marriage myth, because there are a lot of them, and the one we're talking about today is one that I think can create a lot of frustration. And so Dave's going to share it with us.

Yes. And it is that as a married couple, we have to share all the same interests. Or maybe another variation of that myth is truly perfect. Compatible couples share all the same interests. And so the fact that we don't means that we're doing something wrong or that we married the wrong person. And we just want to dispel that myth today to talk about ways that you and your spouse can share more interests, because that is good when you can have some overlap in your hobbies and in the time you spend together. But how you're always going to have some differences and distinctions because God made you different and he wants you to be one in marriage. But like we say a lot, unity does not mean uniformity. You can be unified and yet completely distinct, having your own opinions, personalities, preferences, and still be unified around those. Those principles that matter most. And so just really practical ways, we're going to talk about what that looks like, talk about how to celebrate each other's differences while cultivating more opportunities to share and appreciate each other's differences. And we'll share some fun stories along the way, too.

We will. And you guys, I mean, it makes me smile. We've been married at the time of this recording, 23 years. And so, you know, we've had a lot of time to learn more about each other and what we have, you know, our similarities, but also many of our differences. And I would say, in general, I feel like we tend to have more similarities than differences. But I even think through the changing seasons of marriage, I've noticed that some of the things I thought we did have similar have changed because, like, we're going through different changes just in, you know, aging and in how we kind of see life and how we're coping with different hardships and things like that. And honestly, what I found is that it's really beautiful when you can really appreciate those differences. And so, like, I would say early on, you know, I did have, I think I believe this myth. I didn't realize I believed this myth, but I really did think, like, we need to have all the same interests and we need to connect, you know, in every single facet of our life. And I think where I was getting this wrong and where a lot of couples get this wrong is yes, we should connect every facet of our life in the sense of bringing our spouse into that knowledge of what's going on in our life. But that's not the same thing as them, you know, doing our same hobby or seeing the world exactly as we do. Like, that's not the same thing. And so I really had to learn that kind of the hard way because I think I just, I don't know. I mean, we came from very different homes. I mean, I came from a primarily girl home. You know, I have an awesome dad, but it was just, you know, me and my sister and my mom and my dad and really we kind of, it was just a very girl oriented home. And that was the world, you know, I lived in. And so it was kind of like most of our. Whatever our girly interests were at the time, that's kind of what we all were into, you know. And my dad is a very manly man and had his own interests too, but he never, you know, I didn't really know about a lot of those. And then, Dave, it was quite the opposite because you grew up with, you know, two brothers, so there's three boys and then your sweet mom and your dad. And it was very much like just a male dominated home. And so kind of your interests were obviously very different than mine.

Yeah, our upbringings were different, our personalities, even though I would say we're much more alike than we are different. Yeah, we are, but still we're different. You know, we're different just in nature. Being a man, one a woman, God designed us different. And that's great. I'm so glad he did because we can harmonize together in such a beautiful way. He made our backgrounds very different. He made a lot of our preferences different. A lot of them are the same, which is fun. But, you know, when we got married, like, I was way into watching sports. Ashley had never watched a sporting event on TV ever.

No, with the exception of ice skating. Like, I always was real into the Olympics and I like the ice skating.

And I did not consider that a sport.

And so which it very much is. They're Great athletes in my home. I mean, and it wasn't. I mean, we grew up in Kentucky. We've talked about this before. So obviously there. There might be the occasional UK game, like, if it was a big one, like a big rival or something, because my grandfather, my mom's dad, was really into it. So, like, I had that exposure. But to be honest with you, I, like, my grandfather, really didn't enjoy watching sports with anyone else. And he would get really angry, too. So I kind of associate, like, if they were losing, if the Cats were losing, it was like his whole day was ruined.

Yeah. Everybody just stay away from the way.

We just stayed away. We did. And they had a basement. And I remember I. I would watch a little bit of it, and then it was kind of like we would start. The kids, you know, the grandkids would start talking, and he'd be like, go upstairs. You know, like, I need to focus on the game. And so. And I love my grandpa. I mean, he's was a great man, but it just, you know, I just didn't have. I didn't have much of an association with going to sporting events, having it on in the background or watching it for fun or really any of that. So that was something that was really new to me, you know, when we got married.

Yeah. And Ashley, she didn't just dismiss it. She was like, okay, well, this is something you enjoy, so. Yeah. So you watch it if you like it. And then sometimes she would even watch it with me, which blew my mind. And I appreciate it.

It took a while, though.

It took a while. And it's still not often, but when she does. I know, okay. She is making a genuine effort to connect here into my world, something that's more my world, my interest, and that means a lot. And she'll ask questions about rules or what's going on, and I love that. And I'll make the effort to connect into her world. Like, you know, when she's watching wedding dress shows, which at first I was.

I bring that up a lot. I go through phases of watching that or wedding shows.

And I'm thinking, at first I was like, we've already had a wedding. Like, how is it entertaining to watch other people's weddings? So we don't know, but, I mean, apparently a lot of people think it is because these shows are everywhere. And I started watching it with her sometimes, not all the time, but there have been times when I'm watching it with her, and then she'll get up to do something, and I realized that I'VE been sitting there watching it for 20 minutes by myself, like, which one she gonna pick? What dress is it gonna be? Or who's gonna win the best wedding anyway? And we also kind of have a dream someday of having a wedding venue.

We really do.

And so that's a way that we've kind of, like, combined our interest into something that we both love. Creating space. We love creating atmospheres where we can host and where great memories are made. Ashley has a gift for design. Ashley has a love for weddings. I've officiated a lot of weddings. I have a love for just the power of that moment, the magnitude of that moment. And then what we do with marriage, ministry together. And so for us, a way to kind of combine all that together into a dream is that someday we want to have a wedding venue of our own where folks can come and do all that. And so it gives us a chance to dream. And I think that one thing that every couple needs is they've got to have dreams about the future dreaming together, not just his and her individual dreams. Even though it's okay to have specific career aspirations or specific goals. I mean, Ashley just did a. Finished a master's degree program in counseling, and that was something that she did, and I cheered her on in that, but that was her doing the work. And there are gonna be different aspects of marriage that are like that, where it's one of you really taking on the project and the other one supporting and cheering on. But then there should be other times where you're like, collectively, what can we do? How can we do this together? And I love. I love the fact that we get to work together. We didn't always work together. We've had different jobs, individual jobs. There was a season where our kids were really young, and Ashley was at home for a season. She's always been the hardest working person I know, whether at home or out of the home. But we've had a lot of different kind of jobs. But being able to now primarily do our work together is a gift now, even still, there's still some work we do individually. I'll still preach some on my own. Ashley will go speak at women's events on her own. Ashley does counseling. Some counseling. Now. I. You know, we just. We'll do some different things individually, but most of our work is collective. So I think the more you can overlap, the better you are. But these couples that think we have to do everything together, really, you're limiting each other, and you're going to just end up frustrating each Other.

Right, right. Because I think that, you know, it's good to have something that maybe has always been an interest of yours that you get to come back to and enjoy. Because there's something about having, you know, you have to watch this, like you don't want to go to that, to where it's out of balance and you're getting away from your spouse and family and you're just constantly wanting to go golf or you're constantly wanting to go, you know, whatever that thing is, you know, and just be away.

But.

But on the other side of that, I do think it's healthy for each spouse to individually have something that they're interested in. Because being able to go do that individually, it really does something for you and can bring you joy to where when you come back home or when you enter back in with the family reengage after doing whatever that activity is or interest is, you come back better because you've been able to kind of, I don't know, you know, kind of feed your spirit, so to speak, and doing this thing that you love and something maybe you're good at and maybe with a group of people who are also into that thing, you know, And I think that's a beautiful thing. I know for me it's looked a lot of different ways. Like, I love dance. I danced. My whole childhood was dancing in some capacity, you know, and taking dance classes. And then I was a competitive dancer with my dance school and I absolutely loved it. It was just such a big part of my childhood. And there came this point, I think it was right after we moved to Augusta. I had just had our second child. I wanted to get back in shape, but I also, more than that, I really wanted to connect with some like minded people. And I had heard through the grapevine that our church had a dance team at the time. And I didn't even know what this was like. I didn't grow up in a church that had a dance team. I think I automatically thought it was kind of weird, to be honest with you, which a lot of you probably think that too. I didn't know what to think you were picturing.

I don't know what you were picturing.

But it was probably just something like in. I don't know. I mean, honestly, I really just didn't have a framework for it. But I just thought that sounds kind of bizarre, but the more I heard about it, it's really kind of like a worship dance. I mean, but truly dancing. Like we had choreographed numbers to worship music. Sometimes it would be like worship hip hop, like Toby Mack, like really cool, you know. So it would do anything from like a lyrical dance with tasteful, you know, costumes on obviously. But then it would be like, you know, I know this song. Diver City by Toby Mack was one of my favorite dances that I actually got to choreogr alongside my co leader. Eventually I became leader of it. I wasn't. Most of the time it was my dear friend Errol and he did a great job leading. But when he left, I got to co lead and choreograph with my friend Hope. And it was just so much fun. But like before I entered into joining this dance team, I like the reason I wanted to do it was to reconnect with something that I loved. It was an interest that I loved. Now Dave has never taken a dance lesson. I mean if we're on a cruise and there's like a dance class, you'll indulge me and go do that dance class. But like you've not had like dance isn't your passion, you know.

It is not my passion. I'm not particularly good at it, you know, even on. I think you're pretty good even on a cruise. I usually need at least one glass of wine before I can be talked into it. But we have a good time once we do it.

We really do.

And it's like once I get out there and we're dancing, I'm like, this is really fun and I love that we get to share. I love the way your face lights up.

Oh I.

When we're doing it. Because you love it so much and you love, love it when I join you in that. Knowing that it's not really my thing.

But I don't expect it.

Right? Yeah. It's not like this pressure thing. You don't pressure me because there are a lot of times she'll get out. Even at her exo marriage events, which you gotta come to someday. They're so fun.

Yes.

Usually on Friday night afterwards there's like an after party that includes like for those who want to do it, like a dance floor. And Ashley and some of the girls on the team will go out and they'll just jump in the middle of that dance floor and do this dance party. And. And I usually bow out of that because one, I'm not a late night person. My energy plummets. Like 9 o', clock, I turn into a pumpkin. By 10 o' clock I'm in a coma.

Especially after speaking and pouring out all day.

But Ashley, when we speak, she Gets amped up. We have opposite responses and she's also a night out. So at the end of the night she's ready to go. She knows that I am dead at that point.

I couldn't find you this last time.

I'm usually curled up in a corner somewhere trying to take a nap and. But I love that she is able to go out there and dance in those moments and I love that she's cool with me just laying back, maybe having a one on one, low key conversation with some of the guys on the team and ready to go back and hit the sack and it's okay. Our rhythms are different. Our schedule flow is different.

Our rhythms, you guys. One of our major differences that, I mean, it wasn't, I wouldn't say we fought over this, but we definitely had to kind of find like navigate this was our energy flows of the day. Like so different. I mean, pretty much inverted. Like I, it was like it completely.

Would hurt your feelings because like she would want to start a home project at 10pm, 9pm and I'm thinking it is bedtime. What are you talking about? And so she would be hurt and offended. Like, what? This is the time we work.

This is when I can get it done.

This is when my parents would do stuff. Because her parents stay up super late. She thought this is just what you do. And Ashley has that same rhythm. And I am, you know, you're like.

What are you talking about?

Early to bed, early to rise. And so we had to learn that. But I didn't try to guilt her into trying to, you know, you go to sleep earlier, you go to sleep when you want. We learn to appreciate each other's rhythm.

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But she'll like, lay in bed with me even when I'm going to bed early. Even if she's not going to bed, she will lay in bed, watch TV or then maybe get up and do something after I fall asleep. She did the most thoughtful thing recently.

Well, and this is a key difference too. Like, I mean, and again, we'll Talk about more major key differences. We'll get to that. But I'm gonna preface this. So one of the key differences. I do go to bed later, but I also like to go to bed with the TV on.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dave hates that.

For years, like, I would just go to bed gritting my teeth a little bit that the TV was on. And the volume of.

Well, I would turn it down.

Yeah. But it was like, I like, total silence when I'm going to sleep. And she has to have the TV on to go to sleep. She just has to have it. And so really, there was no way for years to have any kind of compromise there. It's either on or it's not. And so that was one that I just kind of took for the team. Because she does. Does this so much for me in other ways. And I'm like, you know what? You really need that TV on. I'll be okay. I'll just kind of try to put a pillow over my ear and just go to sleep and deal with it. And for years, that's just how we operated.

Well, let me say this first. For years, we didn't have a TV in our bedroom. And so what would happen is I just. I was so used. I mean, I had a TV in my room from the time I was probably 9 years old. And I would go to bed with, like, the three channels that were on that tv. You know what I'm saying? Like, it would usually be like, Nick at night, or. I don't even know if we. We didn't always have cable, but it was like an old rerun, you know, just. It didn't matter what on Golden Girls or something. Like, I would just have that playing in the background. And so for years, like, for years, we did not have a TV in our bedroom on purpose. And I tried going to sleep in the silence and in the black. Like, just pitch black. And I just couldn't. So I would. What ended up happening is I'd be like, you know, I would tuck in, so to speak, and have a little conversation, and we, you know, end the night together. But then I would go into our family room, which happened to be, like, right beside our bedroom, and. And I would end up falling asleep on the couch. Cause I was watching tv. And then you would usually wake up in the middle of the night, like, going to the bathroom and be like, sweetie, come back to bed. So, like. And then eventually we got a tv. And then you just kind of. Because you wanted to.

I'd rather you be in the tv.

You fall asleep in here. Right.

Every night than on the. You know, so I'll deal with the TV if it means you're in here.

Right.

But both of us were having to kind of just make some compromises until, you know, recently, with the joys of technology, Ashley bought this thing that has changed our marriage. This device is not a sponsor of.

The podcast 22 years later. I mean, we've been married 23, but this was about then.

So I'm gonna sing its praises. But it is this.

I'll tell them what it's called.

Yeah, tell them what it's called and how it works. And I'm telling you, the first night you did that, I thought, this is amazing. I've never loved this woman more. I've never been more attracted to her, and I've never looked forward to bedtime so much.

All right, guys, so I did try. Let me just give this story. So I did try AirPods first. They hurt your ears when you're a side sleeper or they can fall out, whatever. Cause I thought, well, maybe I can just listen. It wasn't working. So I did some research, and there is this. It's basically like a little headband of sorts. And it's called Music Cozy. You can find it on Amazon. I got it on, like, a Prime Day deal or like a Black Friday deal or something. And so I think it cost me literally, like $15, but I think normally it's like 25. I mean, but worth every penny. And basically, it's like a soft band. You can even put it over your eyes if you'd like, if you're listening to music or like a podcast. But it pairs up like. It's a Bluetooth, pairs up with your tv, pairs up with your phone, and basically it completely shuts off the volume. And so what I would do, like, when Dave's like.

But you hear everything.

Like, I hear everything.

You can lay on it. It's soft, it's flat. It's flat. And you can go to sleep with it. And it's. And I don't care. It has been so awesome, and it has been amazing. So you get what you need, I get what I need, and everybody's happy.

It's been, like, the best thing. And I can tell, like, you know, we'll say our prayers, we'll give each other a goodnight kiss, and then you roll over and you, like, I feel like. I don't think you were necessarily. I mean, you can speak to this. I don't think you were necessarily, like, you know, gritting Your teeth, going to bed. If I had the TV on, on.

A low level, I was used to it.

Yeah. Early years, it was.

It was hard. It's still not ideal, but the moment that the volume disappeared, I was like, I'm getting better sleep. Because, I mean, I still would sometimes wake up to the volume of the tv, and so my sleep is not interrupted anymore. I mean, it's just great. It's great. Yeah.

Check it out.

Learning to look for ways to help your spouse get what they need instead of just trying to change them and say, well, it's dumb that you need that. I think that's where a lot of couples really fight. It's like, it's dumb that you like doing that. That's lame. Why would you ever want to do that? Like, if your husband is really into whatever, your wife's really into, whatever, like, why do you need that? I don't need that. Well, help them have what they need to be at their best. And, yeah, if it gets way out of balance, if his need to play golf is a way to connect with guys and blow off some steam and get out there, and all of a sudden that turns into this daily idol that's sabotaging the marriage and it's an escape from the family, and it's really out of balance, then, yeah, that's a. That's a huge issue. And you got to be able to just. Guys put those golf clubs aside for a while to really rebuild marriage. Jimmy Evans has talked about that with that same. Same issue. He said golf was kind of a God for me early on, and it almost wrecked my marriage. But now he's got a lot of balance with it. So it's not that golf is evil or any hobby is evil. It's just anything, any good thing can become a bad thing when it gets in the wrong order.

Yes.

And so you just gotta make sure your spouse knows that they're number one. They're the most important thing. And then once you're doing everything to make sure they know that, then help each other. Have whatever your spouse needs to be at their best and celebrate it with them. You know, like, cheer them on with that thing, whatever it is, and in their interests.

And maybe some friendships that are healthy, obviously, individual friendships where, you know, like, they may not necessarily also be your spouse's friend, but, like, you know, this is a good friend to your spouse, like, encouraging them to get with those friends. Those are, you know, some big differences, too. And I know, you know, back to the dance team story, I really got Excited about this. Cause I think you saw my need. Cause at that time, I was at home with two young children. And not only did I want to get in shape and want to meet new people, but I needed something to get me out of the house. You know what I'm saying? And I think where we make this big mistake thinking we have to have everything alike is we're really looking to our spouse to like, fulfill our every need, to fulfill our need for socialization, like that it all has to come from our spouse. And to fulfill our need for entertainment, it all has to come with our spouse and to fulfill our need for some of our health needs. Even like, oh, well, if I'm gonna work out, it has to be with my spouse. And that's just not true. And that's a very, like you said at the beginning, it's very limiting and it's just gonna end up with a lot of frustration for both of you. And so I remember, like, when I was, you know, I heard about the dance team and I found out they practiced. It was like a three hour practice once a week. And then of course, when we would have performances on Sunday, you know, during the Sunday services, that would be. That would require me to be there for all three services. And so it was a bit of a time sacrifice. And I knew that that would require Dave, you know, being with the kids. Like, he would have to adjust his schedule to be with the kids. And so I remember at first I kind of shut it down. But then when we talked about it, you saw how I lit up about it and was so excited. And I think in your mind, and you told me this later, you were like, I just knew that this is something that, you know, would just bring you joy. I mean, it would just bring you joy for a lot of reasons. And so you immediately were like, ashley, don't shut down this idea. This is a great idea. I'll figure it out. I'll be with the kids and you go enjoy yourself. And that I did the dance team, gosh, for years. And it was such a gift in my life. I mean, some of my best friends came out of just that dance team, like meeting them through the dance team till this day. You know, I've been friends with these girls for 20 plus years. Well, about 20 years, I guess about 20 years. And that's just so sweet. And so I'm so grateful because I'm.

So thankful for those relationships.

Exactly.

That season, you really needed not only the social aspect, but to get out there and use that gift. Again. And to be able to do it in a way that built community, that helped just be more physically active and also was a form of worship, which.

Exactly. It was so good.

It was so cool how it all worked together. And so find ways that your spouse can thrive. You know, if they're into certain kind of exercise or certain hobby and it's not your thing, it's okay. Cheer them on in it. You don't have to, like Ashley said, do it all together. I went through a period where I was running a lot. I'm not anymore, but now I'm more of the walking speed. But I was jogging a lot. And so I tried to get Ashley into that, and it was so not her thing.

I did try. I tried to give it a good job.

Yeah. She even did a 5K.

You did? Yeah.

Which was really cool. And I was so proud of her, but it was clearly not her thing. And so I was like, that's fine. I'll do this. And you do you. And she's been active in so many other ways. Just like kind of like dance or Pilates and some of these other things. It's not my thing, but it's great. It's great for her. And so cheer each other on.

That's right. And I remember in that season when you had the goal of running a marathon, you know, clearly, I'm not going to be your running partner. Like, I mean, I would be holding you back. And I just. I'm more of like a fast walker. I love walking and then, of course, dance and other things. But he was, you know, during that time, he knew he had to train. So he's like, I need to be able to take the time to train. And again, this isn't my interest at all. I don't care if I ever run a marathon. I think it's amazing. I'm so impressed with Dave and everyone who's ever run a marathon.

I was super slow. Don't be too impressed. I was.

Well, just the fact that you did it. I'm like, wow. Like, I could. I just. I've never wanted to do that, but plus, I just don't. I don't know if I could, you know, I mean, maybe with the right training, but it's just not been something I've had a passion for.

You totally. Could you just don't. It's not your thing.

It's just not on my list of goals, you know, And I knew that this was so important to you. And so I remember you kind of questioning, like, well, how Am I gonna make time to train, and who am I gonna train with? You know? And you started just going by yourself, but then you realized really fast, you're like, no, I need to train with someone. And there'd been several people. Like, there was Josh, who was a. Is still, I guess, a Marine. He's still active duty. Yeah.

He was a great training partner.

He was a great trainer.

He coached me a lot.

And then you had an Olympian that you occasionally did some runs with. You remember that?

Yeah, yeah. My friend Pardon, who was. He ran the Olympic. Which is so cool, in Rio with Zimbabwe, his home country. But he'd come to college in Augusta, Georgia, and stayed there. And. Great guy. Was part of our church. Super fast. Great guy. And, yeah, he did a run with me. Like, I'm dying. He's smiling, not breaking a sweat, being so polite, you know, just like. It was not like we were training together.

That was very kind of him to do.

It was just really sweet of him. This elite.

I know he's like this elite Olympian. Yeah.

Running with a chubby, slow dude.

Oh, my gosh. Well, and then we would go. This is at the Augusta Canal. If you're ever in the Augusta, Jordan, Georgia area, you have to go to the Savannah River, Augusta Canal. And we go. We have. I don't know how many miles. We have clocks of miles, mostly. You doing. When you're training for your marathon with various trainers, we walk together, but we have walked there so many times.

We even kayaked it.

Exactly. But we've seen. Pardon, Remember, like, when he was still living there, we'd be walking, and he would literally just zoom past us, and we'd see a hand up in the air, and we were like, oh, there goes Pardon.

Yeah, he was out there training. Man, he was so fast.

So, like. But you got with these people, and you made the time, even though that's. That's not our interest. But I did. I remember in the beginning, I thought, why can't I love running? Like, why? And I. I mean, I even. I had prayed about this. I was like, I want to enter in this, you know, into Dave's world with running. And I did give it a go. In fact, I did. I did a 5k with a friend, my friend Melina. The color run, which is so fun. It's like, you wear tutus and you. You're all colorful. And I think it did benefit something really important. That's terrible. I don't remember, but it was like a charit, and you run a 5k and then people get colored cornstarch and they throw powder at you. And by the end of it, you look like you're a tie dyed shirt. Okay. Like, you have, like, color everywhere. You have to sit on plastic in your car because you're just a mess of color. And that was fun. And then I thought, okay, if I can do that, I'll run this other thing. So I did go through a phase of trying so hard to make running like that. I would love it as much as you did at that time. And it just, you know, I did it, but it just didn't pan out. And I remember I came to that point where I was like, sweetie, I just think I'm gonna probably go back to what I really love doing.

Yeah, of course.

And you were fine with it. But I really felt really. I felt bad at first.

There's no reason to feel bad. And I don't even run anymore.

I mean, you do some. I think you jog some, right?

I lift more and, yeah, a lot more. I get on the elliptical. Cause it's easier on my knees and stuff. And I'm just trying to think about that stuff with age.

And we're not even that old. But I think sometimes we talk about it like we're like super old, but we're in our 40s. And you do have to watch that kind of stuff.

Yeah. Midlife, you know, so seasons change and interests can sometimes change with different seasons. But the bottom line is, guys respect each other, cheer each other on, and don't believe the myth that it's all, you gotta look the same, you gotta love all the same stuff. It's okay, it's all right. Like, it's okay to have different favorite restaurants. It's okay to have different favorite movies. It's okay to have different hobbies. It's all right. But as much as you can, try to find ways to appreciate what your spouse is into, join them in it when possible. Let your own horizons be broadened. And Ashley's broadened mine in so many ways. And I'm so thankful for that. But not trying to change each other into a clone of one another because you don't wanna. You didn't marry your clone. You weren't supposed to.

Exactly. You know, one of the big things that I think kind of can affect couples more, and in fact, there was a couple that we worked with years ago that was dealing with this issue is when one spouse is, like, very much an extrovert and another, you know, their spouse is so much an introvert. Okay. And I Know, we've touched on this before, but this particular couple came to us, and I think they were, you know, they were an older couple. Like, they had married later. Okay. They had not never married, and then got married later in life. It was such a beautiful love story. But so they had spent a lot of time living on their own, you know, as a single person and not even having roommates so they could. Like, their whole schedule was what they wanted it to be. The temperature of the house was what they wanted it to be. Like, what activities they did or did not go to was totally their prerogative. And so all of a sudden, you know, you find yourself in your 50s and you're married to someone, and even though you love them so much, you find really quick, like, wow, we are. We are not the same person. And one of the big, big issues, I mean, it was an actual issue, was that both of them really just wanted their spouse to change and be more of an extrovert or more of an introvert. Because if I remember correctly, the wife was more introverted, and the husband was just so much more extroverted. And so their dynamic looked a lot like this. Like, the husband would sign up for everything he possibly could sign up for to be a volunteer. So at church, if those doors were open, he's like, I'm working that event. And then, you know, if a friend invited him somewhere, he would say yes every time. And then now that he was married, he expected his wife to go to all these events with him.

Yeah. Which is an introvert would wear anybody out.

And it did. And she came to us, and she. I mean, the sweetest couple, but she was like, he's wearing me out. Like, I love this man, but I can't go to another event. Like, if I have to go and have small talk with another person, I'm going to pass out. Like, I can't do this. But then in the same way. Cause we talked to him too. He was like, I love my wife. I love that she's okay being alone. Like, she really likes to be alone sometimes, you know, and she's good with it, and it brings her peace. But I just feel like, why can't she just be with me now that I have a wife? You know, I didn't have a wife for most of my life. Now I have a wife. I want people to know her. I want to bring her with me because then I have more fun at these events, and then they get to know her. It's like, I'm bringing her into this World. And so we talked a lot with them about this. I mean, it was a process, right, sweetie? Do you remember?

Yeah, it was. And I think they felt like the other one was wired up wrong.

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@ first they did because it's like.

No, this is the way to be. Like, I've been this way all my life and it's worked. So you're different, you must be wrong. Which is such a closed minded view. God makes us all masterfully unique.

Yes.

And no two are alike. And your spouse, the spouse that you fell in love with, the spouse you committed your life to, they're very different than you. And to try to convince them their personality is wrong is actually to insult not only them, but God who made them. And so you have to learn to appreciate and value the differences and grow with each other. And that's going to mean serving each other in different ways. It's going to mean the introvert is going to have to get out of their comfort zone some and be there in that extrovert's world. It means the extrovert's going to have to get out of their comfort zone some and learn to appreciate, you know, the stillness and quiet and solitude and one on one conversations that are deep and meaningful instead of just working the room so much. There's room for both people to grow there. And there's strengths in both introverts and extroverts. And Ashley's very much an introvert. And sometimes that surprises people because. And I think that I'm probably, I can extrovert well, I can play an extrovert on TV really well or whatever, but I'm more of an introvert. Not as much. If it's a spectrum, I'm not as much as Ashley. You are that she requires, I think, more solitude and extrovert. Introvert. It doesn't mean extroverts love people, introverts don't. That's not it at all. We love people. It's all about how you recharge. Do you recharge with people or do you recharge with solitude?

Right.

And for both of us, we Recharge with solitude. And we love being with people. We love going to our events. We love hugging you and wait and, you know, and hearing your stories. And that's why we do what we do. It's so rewarding. It's so meaningful. But after that, we've got to have solitude to, you know, to recharge. I mean, we even see. I don't know if Jesus was an introvert or extrovert. He clearly loved people more than anybody in history because he's God in the flesh, and God is love. But he had a lot of solitude in his rhythm. He would get away from the crowd often and reconnect with the Father. Just alone in prayer in the wilderness. No cell phones, obviously, no distractions. And I'm like, if Jesus needed that, how much more do we. So even extroverts need solitude.

Absolutely.

And even introverts need crowd. They need not only community, but they need. They need people. And so we need each other.

We do. And I remember this couple. It took them a while because I think part of it was they had been single for so long and not had to really try to work it out with someone else, you know? And all of a sudden they're like, wow, I really love this person. But they're not exactly like me. I think it was a bit of a curve ball in that way. But they, you know, this was many years ago. They're doing great, you know. And it's funny. The husband has even started doing something that requires solitude. I mean, he has a hobby that he's a very talented artist and he's been doing. And that's not with people, but it is a joy to all these people. And I smiled when I saw that. Cause I thought, well, that's something he has to do alone. And he loves it. And he's, like, really good at it. I don't know if you've seen them, but I'm, like, super impressed. It's like a hidden talent. I didn't even know. I don't even know if he knew he had it. It's really something. And I just smiled when I saw that. Cause I'm like, man, how cool that God has never finished with always learning new things. And I think. And she brags on it like she'll. I only know about these not because he's posted, but because she's posted. And she's just like, look at what he made. And it's just the coolest thing, like, to see how just the beauty in appreciating each other's. Differences, but also just learning how to navigate this. Cause I think, you know, it's important to recognize these myths, you know, especially this one, that we have to be into all the same things. Because I think that if we do believe that lie, then we think, oh, I married the wrong person. Like, I got it wrong. And then you really start seeing your spouse in this negative light. But when you can look at it and be like, well, none of us are exactly alike, you know, I need to look at this as being able to be stronger together because we have these differences, because we can see the world a little bit differently. And when it comes to being introverted and extroverted, if you have both of those, to me, that's beautiful because, you know, you're gonna get invitations all the time, and if one of you is just, you know, gung ho to go, and you know that you can be there and be present and the other gets a break for a night sometimes, that's a win win for both. You know, we've certainly had situations like that where I'm like, can you take one for the team and head on out? Cause I know you're into that, you know? And he's like, yeah. I mean, you know, there was a lot of memes going around during the pandemic, and they were like, the pandemic is the introvert's dream. Because you don't have. You can't go anywhere. You have to stay home.

You check on your extroverted friends.

Check on your extroverted friends.

Yeah. And you could tell through the pandemic who the extroverts were, because they were my friends that were just calling all the. They were wanting to FaceTime and stuff. And I'm like, I don't FaceTime.

We don't like FaceTime.

No.

I mean, I do think it's a beautiful tool.

I want the freedom to, like, be on the toilet when I talk to you or whatever. Like, I want freedom in the conversation.

To be on the toilet. And then you'll mute it and flush.

If I want to be negative when I talk to you, that's my business. You don't need to know. So.

Oh, my God.

The extroverts, they wanna see you. They wanna. And I love that. I love it. And I love.

We need both. We need.

We need both.

Let me tell you, though, I'm gonna get a little bit on a soapbox. Okay? And this is coming from a loving place, but this is coming from too an introverted Christian. Okay? I've been introverted my entire life. Like, I've never even been extroverted. I mean, from day one, I've been. And I've always been a people person, too.

Oh, you love people.

That doesn't make sense to people. But every time, I mean, anyone who's ever known me throughout my whole life would say, you know, yeah, Ashley loves people.

You were voted senior class president in your high school. Because I love people.

I was part. I love being part of stuff.

I mean, your peers love you. They always have. And you love them.

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying they do. But I love people.

Right, of course, you.

But my family will tell you. Oh, but she has to go solid, you know, go be by herself hard. Like, I have to. Like, I would come home from school after extroverting all day and literally would go in my room. I mean, I would say hello to my family, but I'd go to my room and close that door, and I would be in there for three hours not talking to anyone. And I would just do my thing, do my homework, listen to music, like, whatever. I just needed that time. And then I'd come out and I would reengage and be with my family and have dinner. But it's like my family knew. Like, they just knew I needed that. Even though I'm pretty sure my mom's an extrovert. Like, maybe. Maybe a major extrovert, without a doubt. I mean, that woman, she can extrovert all day. And I just so appreciate that they realized that about me. But what I want to say is this. I've seen some posts going around as of late, and I don't know. I'm sure the heart of this is good, but it kind of is giving this message. Like, introverts need to deny their need to have some alone time. Especially if you're in ministry, vocational ministry, or just you spend a lot of your time volunteering in ministry, that basically you need to deny that an extrovert. And that if you're not doing that, then something's. Basically, you're not fulfilling God's call. And I just would totally disagree. And how I would disagree with that is look to Jesus. Because Jesus people would have agendas for Jesus all day long. And they were good. They meant well. They're like, jesus, come stay here.

Heal more people. Do this. And good requests. And he didn't care to disappoint people. He'd be like, no, I got to go to school.

I'm going to the garden.

Or I got. Tomorrow, I Got to go to this other place and that's where I'm going. So, yeah, in ministry it's easy to kind of make excuses for unhealthy people pleasing behavior because you're like, oh, I've got to be there for everybody all the time. And that's what leads to burnout. It's not. Now, I think that the grain of truth in what those folks are saying is you can't just hide in a green room all the time, pop out of the sage, do your thing and then disappear 100%. You have to have proximity to people, you have to be in relationship. You have to have some level of accessibility. And that's just part of life. It's certainly part of ministry. But it's okay for you to do what you do, to need to recharge, you know, it's okay.

And you, if you're married to someone who's like that, who's different from you, and like, maybe you're extroverted, but they're introverted. Even if you're not in vocational ministry or not, I mean, even volunteering at your church, whatever, it is just as a person, as a married person, you know, allowing for your spouse to be able to have pockets of solitude if they need it, or pockets of engaging with people if they need it, is just being a loving spouse. And I'm just so grateful that Dave has always done that for me. Like, you've never made me feel bad that even when we were knee deep and spit up and I'm nursing and there's kids everywhere, you know, because when you're a mom, you have people around you all the time, you know what I'm saying? And they're the best people in the world. They're your kids, you know, and you love that. But, but it's, it's real. Like when you're a mother, especially as a stay at home mom, and there's. You're never feeling like you ever have a moment. I remember I was going batty in those days. Like I loved being able to stay at home. That was a privilege. I would never give that up. I think it was so important that it was a value. We both held that if we can swing it, let's do this. And, and it was a sacrifice, but a beautiful sacrifice. And I'm so grateful. But I remember my, I really needed a moment. And so when you would come home from work, you knew I needed a moment. I literally like kiss you, talk to you, and I'd be like, I'm gonna go in here for like, an hour or go on a drive for like, an hour. I'm gonna come back better. But I needed a moment.

Oh, my God. It's like tag team.

Yeah, it was tag team.

I got the kids. You go do your thing. You needed that.

And you didn't make me feel bad, like, well, why can't you just be okay and, like, talk all day to the kids and then me and then everybody else who needs something from you? Like, you know, and it was like, you realized, she needs this. She'll come back to us better, because she just needs a moment, you know.

Help your spouse have what they need, guys. That's what this is all about. And so maybe, you know, like all of our episodes, they're designed to create meaningful conversations for you and your spouse. So just talk to your spouse and just ask them, like, hey, what. What could I do to help you be at your best? What's something that you need that. That you maybe you're afraid to ask for because you're afraid it sounds selfish or whatever. And like, no, that's something I want to serve you by helping you to have. And so let's talk about that. Let's talk about ways we can serve each other in that way. Ways we can celebrate each other's differences. And I hope it leads to more connection in your marriage. So thank you so much for tuning in. Do us a favor and share this episode. I think it could lead to some meaningful conversations in your friends lives and other people's lives as well. Don't let friends believe this myth that could undo or harm their marriage. And I think this conversation could help.

That's right. We'll see you next time.