What Do You Need?

Hey, guys. Welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and we undress the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And today we have an amazing guest. I'm so excited that you all are going to hear from this guest today, and her name is Shanti Feldhahn.

Yes. Let me tell you a little bit about Shanti. She's going to be talking to us today about the key needs and the key insecurities that men have versus the ones that women have in marriage. It is eye opening. It is groundbreaking. I'm so excited to jump into this call. A little bit about Shanti. She is one of our best friends. Yes. But she's also a Harvard educated researcher. She was originally an analyst on Wall street before unexpectedly becoming a social researcher, a speaker, a marriage expert, and her research has really just revolutionized marriage ministry. She's got New York Times bestsellers, including the books For Men Only, for Women Only and countless others. She is brilliant. She's wonderful. She is one of our dearest friends, and you are going to learn so much from her as we have.

So.

So let's dive into this call.

We are so excited to have Shanti Felton here today on the podcast. She's literally one of our favorite people in the entire world.

She is.

And she is truly an expert when it comes to marriage and the differences between men and women.

Yeah. Shaunti, welcome.

Oh, it's awesome to be on with you. I'm so excited. Anytime I get to hang out with you, I'm excited.

We love Shanti. Shanti. We could spend just the whole episode talking about things we love about Shanti, but she really has been a huge part of our journey in so many ways, like a mentor in marriage ministry, a dear friend. Her and Jeff, her whole family, they've just been great. And then beyond their deep and personal impact in our life, Shaunti's research and writing and speaking has really changed the whole landscape of marriage ministry. And so if you're not familiar with her work, her research, her writing, her speaking, you're in for such a treat today. And hopefully this is the first step in connecting you to all the great stuff she's doing. Shanti, thank you again for being here.

You guys are so sweet. Thank you so much.

Well, we mean it. I'm naming our next child Shaunti. Even if it's a boy, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. This is such an important topic today, though. The needs that men have versus the needs that women have. Cause we kind of live in this world where it's become almost politically incorrect to suggest that men and women are different at all apart from some biological hardware. But for people to say, oh, well, men and women are really just essentially exactly the same. When we believe that, we. We end up stepping all over each other's toes and making a lot of false assumptions. Because the truth is, as your research is so brilliantly pointed out, is that when God made men and God made women, he made us so masterfully unique. And every individual is unique, obviously. But there are some common, undeniable trends that God created where men tend to be wired up certain ways, women tend to be wired up certain ways. I'm excited to talk about it. And so Shanti, like, just kind of diving straight into this. What do you think are kind of those main starting points? What do men need to know about their wives? What do wives need to know about their husbands that's going to help them have better intimacy and communication in their marriage?

Well, probably the biggest thing that Jeff and I, as we've done all these surveys over the years, because I should point out, by the way, this isn't our opinion, right, because we've spent all these years doing these big nationally representative studies, and one of the threads that's run through really pretty much all of them, is that men and women tend to. Not always, but tend to have two different sets of insecurities. And a lot of the issues tie back to that. And there's obviously many other things we can talk about. I'm sure we will. But that's one that tends to cause a lot of these unseen rubs, you know, these problems where you don't understand what's going on. Because essentially, if this is true, that we have these two different sets of insecurities, what that means by definition, is that different things are gonna hurt your spouse's feelings than would hurt yours. And so you have no idea why? Like, for me, like, why is he so sensitive, you know, about that? Like, what did I say? Like, all I did was tease him in front of his friends about not being able to fix the kitchen sink. Like, what's the problem? And that's the kind of thing where, as a woman, I was so clueless for so many years about how much I was hurting my husband's feelings. Not that any guy is going to say that hurts my feelings, you know, but that's what I didn't realize was going on. And the same on the other end as well. And so I can actually describe the two different studies.

Yes, please.

Yes. This is Gold.

So here's basically what we found is that essentially, and this is roughly about 75 to 80% of women and roughly 75 to 80% of men, depending on which survey we did, et cetera. But roughly, for most women, the sort of the worry or the question or the insecurity in our hearts is essentially like, am I lovable? Right? Like, am I special? Am I beautiful? And it really comes down to this feeling of, am I worthy of being loved for who I am on the inside? And so because of that question, that's why we love to feel loved, right? And cherished and adored. And that's kind of what we think is the whole point of having the relationship. If you're not going to feel that way, like, what's the point of being in this relationship with this boyfriend and this eventual husband? And it's a pretty big surprise for us as women to find out that for men, that's very different. That's not their point at all. And that for men, the question is essentially, am I able? Right? Like, am I adequate? Do I measure up? Do I have what it takes? So essentially, you could kind of summarize that as, am I any good at what I do on the outside? Totally different.

Totally different for men.

Yeah. So for men, they're always looking for signals of, does my wife appreciate me? Does she respect me? Does she trust me? Does she need me? And so that is so often where we don't realize the other person has these insecurities. And they're kind of like a wrong nerve. You can hit the nerve. And you're also not necessarily meeting those real deep needs of the heart, because you don't realize they're looking for those signals.

Right? Cause you're trying to meet their need. As if she's just like me or he's just like me. I want to feel adored. So I'm just gonna tell him over and over how much I love him. And he's like, yeah, I get that. But that's not what I need.

I don't think I can do anything. Am I the man?

It's so foreign. And nobody's having these conversations again because somewhere along the way, we lost our sanity and started believing that we're all exactly the same. And there can't be these trends that make, you know, men distinct or women distinct in any ways. And so many of the marriage struggles that we see with couples that we work with, I think it comes down to a lot of misunderstandings around these same things. They're stepping on each other's toes and not even realizing. So what can couples do to make sure that they are meeting each other's needs, that they're in sync?

Yeah. Well, here's really what it has come down to for us and what we have seen over the years in the research and as we've done all of our events and that kind of thing. Right. Is. Is essentially recognize that there is, first of all, that there is that raw nerve right under the surface, that insecurity. And it's legit. Like, it's a totally legitimate question in his heart. It's totally legitimate question in her heart. Like, a lot of guys don't realize that. And this is a. This is a big deal. A lot of men don't realize, for example, when they get married, for them, the question goes away. Like, they don't question whether the love question. Like, a guy doesn't really think about, does my wife love me? That's not even. It doesn't even come up in his head. And he has no idea that for woman. For a woman, that question doesn't go away just because we happen to get married. And that honestly, for her, it just morphs a little bit to, does he still love me?

Can I just pause right now to say, Ashley, I love you so much. You've never been more beautiful. I adore you. You are gorgeous.

He's just putting it into practice.

Okay. All right.

Yes, exactly. Thank you, Dave, for modeling that behavior. But it is kind of funny that because men don't realize that question is there, and they don't realize that there's not, like, a switch that gets flipped in her brain to, oh, I feel permanently loved now. Right. You know, just because I'm married. He doesn't realize. She's always got that. She's got that question every day. Like, would he choose me all over again? Is he glad he married me? So she's looking for signals to the answer to that question every single day. And guys don't realize how simple that is to actually answer that question, because it's not like you hear all the time. And forgive me, you might have said this, and if you have, I'm sorry, I might step on your toes. But you hear all the time, you need to keep dating your wife. You need to keep doing the things you did when you were dating. And a lot of guys are like, oh, man, that sounds exhausting.

I understand that.

Yeah, my flower budget is only so big.

It does. And. Exactly. And I've literally had men come up to us after our events and say, I got married so I could stop doing stuff.

Right. Like, I've already wooed her.

Yeah.

And so what we always tell the guys is, okay, there's really good news here. And because the. You need to keep dating your wife is actually. It's true. But it's not. Like, do the same thing. Like, you don't need to do the big candlelight dinner or the picnic in the park. The key is you're sending the space signal every day of. I would choose you all over again.

Yes. And I think, too, Shaunti, wouldn't you agree that it's. It's not just words, too. I think sometimes guys are like, well, I tell her I love her. Like, isn't that enough? And it's like, well, I mean, that's good. Like, start there. But I think a lot of times, too, it's just noticing her. I think there's so many. You know, so many times we'll talk to wives that are like, he just doesn't even notice me anymore. He didn't notice that I fixed myself up today. He didn't notice that I got a new haircut. I noticed, you know, but you know what I mean? Like, I think that so many times, I think men, because, again, they're wired differently. They think I don't need that affirmation. Like, as far as, like, her telling me that she noticed something in my appearance, so why would I need to say that to her? Like, what's the big deal? And I think that it's just getting that, like, with your research, I mean, what you're kind of helping us to see is that we can't approach our spouse the way that we want to be approached. We need to really play to what those needs are in them. As an individual, as a man, or as a woman.

Absolutely. Well, and it's actually interesting. We tell the guys, and it really is good news. Like, these. These little signals, like, you're saying, I noticed, or, you know, I'm so glad I married you. You can literally send that signal by reaching across and taking her hand when you're walking across a parking lot.

Yes.

You know, that is how simple this is. But it's just a matter of thinking about it enough at the beginning that you kind of make that a habit.

Yeah.

And most of the guys. And I want to tell the women listening to this, this is how your man feels. Like, we found, statistically, this is the way. It's like 99.37% of men or something. This is how men feel. It's just that they didn't. They didn't know this stuff mattered.

Right.

And you can say it like, I feel like you don't notice me anymore. And the guy's like, what?

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Yeah.

No, it's so true. And when it comes to guys, like, I, you know, within. Yeah. Saying like, am I able? I know, right? I have needs, too. You know, what are some things that wives can do to let their. Their husband know that they do think.

He is able, that they do measure up. Yeah. Okay, so here's the cool thing. We actually. I went on this quest. I think I might have even told you guys about this a few years ago, but I was so, like, I really wanted to know what I could say to Jeff that would have the same emotional impact on him that I love you does on me.

Right.

Because, you know, him saying I love you, it is a good starting point because it does hit that question in a woman's heart. But going to a guy and say, oh, honey, I respect you so much. Just poor Jeff, who's like, you know what?

I appreciate the dress.

Like, okay, that's great, sweetie.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, thanks. And so I actually did. We actually made a part of this was a big piece of one of our studies, and we found that, believe it or not, it's saying to him, thank you.

Yes.

It's literally noticing that he changed the light bulbs. Right. Because that was driving you nuts. And saying thank you for changing the light bulbs. Because here's what it says. Like, think about how many notes this hits for a man. It says, I noticed what you did on the outside. Right. I noticed what you did, and it was good and I appreciate it. And it, like, hits all of that.

My heart rate just picked up thinking about all that. Like, that's good stuff.

But again, I do think so many times we can get into as women, we can think, he's a grown. I've actually heard women say this, and I've probably thought this in the early years of our marriage. Well, he's a grown man. I don't need to do that. Like, I don't need to thank him. I mean, we hear that all the time, don't we, sweetie?

Yeah, I do a lot, too.

And, like, I do a lot too. Thank me every time I do this thing. But it's like, you know, for what we try to explain, like, you have shown us we know this because of your research, is that it is just important. Just as like, we like to hear I love you, our husband really needs to hear thank You. And not that women don't need to hear. Thank you, too. I mean, we love to be appreciated as well, of course, but it's kind of the measure at which we need that affirmation. And so, I mean, just this morning, I'm telling you, this morning, Dave let me sleep in a little bit. And he. I literally woke up and he had two kids off to school without me even knowing it. And I literally was like, what just happened? And he was like, hey, I just know you've been tired. I thought you might wanna sleep in a little bit. And I was just like, thank you so much. And I think I thanked you, like, three times this morning because I was very appreciative and I was feeling like.

The man I was pretty well.

But I also know the effort you went to, and I think sometimes it's like, the longer we're married, the less we try again. It's about noticing and recognizing the effort made. And I know that he woke up a little earlier. He got two of our kids dressed and ready to go and off. And that's a lot of effort. And it meant a lot to me that he would do that just to give me a little bit of sleep. And so it's like, we just. We need to do the things as far as, like, I know, like you said, Shaunti, sometimes we get so caught up in the whole, like, date your spouse like you did in the beginning. But it's really about just being conscientious and saying, like, I still notice you and I still appreciate you and being willing to look for those things to thank our husband for each and every day.

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And here's the other thing. This is. And this is a caveat to this. This is a cautionary note for us as women. There's something that we do on top of that that actually undoes. Undoes all the good without us realizing it. Because. And I used to do this all the time, especially at the beginning when I was first, like, trying to learn this and figure it out. And I didn't know why Jeff would, Like, his face would get tight, or his, you know, he would kind of look away, or he would seem a little withdrawn. I'm like, what? And so I would literally say things like, oh, gosh, thanks for letting me sleep in. I can't believe you got the kids off to school.

Oh, yeah.

But, you know, actually, they shouldn't have worn that.

Oh, yeah.

Or. Or, you know, they shouldn't have done.

I've definitely done that before.

Yeah.

Yes.

And it is, like, as a guy, I will say. I don't know. I know it should. There's a part of you, it's like, oh, this shouldn't bother me, but it does. Oh, it just. When. When work is corrected. Or. And to the. And I know to the wife, the wives just think, I'm just helping him be better.

I'm helping him.

But to the husband, he. You know, he feels like it's a cheerleader who, instead of cheering for him, is booing him because his performance wasn't what it should have been. And so all he hears is that boo. But not that you do that.

Yeah, no, no, no. Of course. I. But here's how to explain. Here's how I can explain this to the women, because it took me a while to realize what was going on. This is again where I would think he's so oversensitive. Kind of get over it. And I didn't quite realize that he's looking. What his heart is longing for is the indication, the signal that what he just did, the message his heart is longing for is, you done good. Yeah. Yeah, you done good. That was amazing. And literally, we may think as women, but it wasn't amazing. He didn't have them wear the. Whatever that they were supposed to wear. And we're looking at that one, One little thing, because we think and we don't realize that actually, what's that saying is, you tried, you tried, you tried, you tried, and at the end, you failed. And so here's what I actually started asking the guys. Eventually, I'm like, okay, help me figure out what do I do? Because if I do need to correct something, what do I do? Like, I Can't have this super oversensitive feeling every time. So what, how do I do it without undoing all the good. And honestly, the guys consistently brought up what we now call this the second day rule, which is to actually ask yourself two questions. And the first is, is this thing that I want to point out, is this going to matter the next day?

Right.

Is this going to matter on day two? And you know, yeah, he wore this coat instead of that one. It probably doesn't matter, but if it does, right. If you think, wow, it was really cold and he didn't realize it and they're going to be freezing because he forgot they were going to have to stand at the bus stop for an extra 10 minutes today, then. Okay, but then the second part of the second day rule is the guys said, if at all possible, mention it the second day, don't mention it. When what they most are longing for is you done good. Thank you so much for letting me sleep. You're amazing. Like, this meant so much to me. And then if it's important, yes. If it's important, then the next day, like, it still might sting a little bit, but it's more like, oh, thank you so much that made such a difference. You know, by the way, can I mention one thing because, you know, I kind of want you to do this again. Yeah. And just be aware that little Johnny on little Johnny on Tuesdays and Thursdays, he's actually going to be standing at the bus stop longer in the afternoon because the bus doesn't come at the same time time or whatever. And so it might actually help to wear that coat instead of that one. But thanks again so much. Like, that was awesome. And every woman listening to this is probably going, oh, please, like you really, like you're pandering to his ego. Does he need that many thank yous. And what I keep having to remind us as women is you gotta remember, do you have an ego? Is a total myth for men. Like, he doesn't have an ego. He has self doubt. He's got this question in his heart, like, am I any good at what I do as a dad? I want to be, I love my kids, I want to be a great father. But gosh, I just constantly am wondering if I measure up in that area. So we just have to remember that's why this matters so much.

That is so huge. I mean, I think I love how you explained that. It's not building up an ego. It's totally just erasing doubts and reassuring, you know, just reassuring our husbands Like, I. I think you are the man. I think you are capable, and you are an amazing dad. Especially when they're down. And I think a lot of times, especially if we're having friction in our marriage, I know that as spouses, sometimes that's when we tend to nitpick, and we'll see maybe that, you know, we'll see our spouse's body language and that they're doubting themselves, and instead of building them up, we'll just kind of, like, nitpick them and kind of kick them when they're down. And I just hate to see that, because it is doing exactly what you're talking about. It's really just putting more doubts in their mind and making them feel like they're not good enough. And I think with women, it's not just, you know, a male thing. With women, how a husband can really make her wife feel unloved is by nitpicking at her, you know, talking about her appearance and that it doesn't measure up to some model on TV or some pretty lady walking by or. And it's not just appearance, either. Guys, please listen to me when I say this, and I think we've mentioned this before on the podcast. Do not compare your wife to your mother. Don't compare it to her cooking. Don't compare her. Look how she raised you. Please, please save yourself from all the terrible backlash that you will get. Whether it is too aggressive or in your face. I promise you, it will not be good for your marriage. But the reason, you know, I know we kind of joke about that, but all it is, is it's just putting doubts in your wife's mind that she is not as lovable as your mother and that she doesn't measure up to your mother and that she never will.

Hopefully. I've never done that.

You never do that.

I'm thinking back, I'm going through the real. Like, I don't think I've ever.

Never. No, he has never. He's never even tried to compare us. And I think that's. That's the whole thing is, like, your mom is your mom, your wife is your wife. They don't need to be compared.

And I think the thing is, don't you think that a lot of us don't even realize that we're doing that, though?

Oh, absolutely.

The issue, like, we just. It's just a matter of suddenly having your eyes opened, right? The things that you just didn't notice before.

Shanti, this is. Man, this is gold. So question. What about these Situations where the husband's like, man, I would give anything for my wife to get this, but she nags me. Nothing I ever do is good enough for her. She's really critical. Or for the wife that says, I want to praise my husband, but he's narcissistic, he's overbearing, he's kind of a bully. And so I feel like I don't want to feed. So basically what I'm asking, when one of the spouses is coming from this broken place, what's the best thing the other spouse can do in that situation? To try to meet the other spouse's needs without enabling them to continue to be unhealthy?

Well, there's two things going on here. One of them is, is it truly coming from an unusual broken place where there's a lack of goodwill towards you because that's a tiny percentage of the population, Right? That's where we get into that, you know, 0.6% or whatever. That's a very, very small percentage of the population. It sadly does happen. Like, if you have any, if you have a stadium, you know, with one or 2,000 people, you're going to have probably three or four marriages in there, or maybe a couple more, but you're going to have a few where literally somebody is a true narcissist, where somebody really doesn't have goodwill towards their spouse, they're a true abuser. And those are those situations that those require, like much more intense counseling. That's one of those things that there's a bigger intervention. The vast majority of people aren't in those cases, though. The vast majority of it is you've got somebody who does care about you. And they don't necessarily realize that. Like, they might think they're trying hard, but they don't realize they're trying hard in the wrong areas or they don't realize they're hitting those nerves. And a lot of us start out not being able to explain this. And so the first thing that we need to do, obviously, is look at ourselves, because that was a big deal. As we started doing the research, we saw a ton of these cases where when we put out the initial books on this for women only and for men only, we would get hundreds and hundreds of emails from people who said things like, I read this book on the plane and it saved my marriage.

Oh, yeah.

And it's like, you know What? If a 200 page book can save a marriage, there's a lot of unnecessary divorces going on. Like, this is simple. This is simple. Stuff. This isn't rocket science. This isn't like, you know, master's level. This is like junior high level, you know, stuff. And so we tell people, this is where educate yourself first. Yes. Understand what's going on in the other person and look for. And ask God's help for. In seeing those areas where actually there was a lot of insecurity under the surface or there was self doubt or there was whatever. And you might be hitting that nerve and not giving it a sense of legitimacy. Like, he shouldn't feel that way. Oh, yeah, I shouldn't bother him. If you ever think that about your spouse, that is a check yourself thing. Absolutely.

Yeah.

And then looking for, okay, once I've figured out what I can change, then it's looking for. How do I explain this to this person who's the most important person in my life? And honestly, one of the things that a church somewhere came up with with our books, I think we might have told you this at some point because there's thousands of churches that use for women only and for men only as their premarital counseling. And somebody came up with this idea that I'm like, can we steal this idea? Because it was brilliant. Where they actually have the couple SW books first? And so you're reading the book about yourself and. For yourself as a man. Yeah. Or yourself as a woman. And read the pen. Yes. Read it with a pen in hand and like, highlight and mark the stuff that's. I could have said this. Like, this is so important. Or even the stuff that's like, okay, this isn't so much me, I'm in the 20% here, or whatever. And then when you trade it back, you're reading a personalized copy. And this is a way to try to express. Yeah. This is a way to try to try to explain to the other person, here's the way you're hitting this nerve. And I know you didn't intend to.

I love that. And it's assuming the best in your spouse. You know, we talk about that a lot. Because I do think you're so right, Shaunti, that, you know, sometimes when we're really having trouble in our marriage, we think that our spouse is out to get us. And like you said, most of the time they're not. It's just a huge misunderstanding and we have maybe some bad habits in place. And I think, just like you mentioned earlier in this podcast, really, it's getting. Putting those healthy habits in place and assuming the best of each other and trying to remove the doubts in our Minds trying to help your wife know that you would still choose her. And trying to help your husband know that you do think he is completely capable and you appreciate all that he does. And I think when we start getting into the practice of doing that and looking for those ways that we can notice them more and really affirm them more, you know, it does turn the tide. It really can completely change your marriage. Just like you were talking about. It's a huge game changer.

It absolutely is. And we're out of time. I'm going to give Shaunti a chance to give some final words here as we wrap up. But before she does, let me just give a quick plug for a few of her resources. If you go to shaunti.com, that is S-H-A-U N T I dot com, that is a good kind of one stop shop for her. Research her books, blogs, Bible studies, learning how you can bring her to come and speak at your church or your event. She is the real deal. And I hope this encouraged you, this talk encouraged you as much as it did us. I love the idea of getting the books for men only for women only. Reading that with your spouse making it those personal notes, the husband read for women only and mark it up and say, this is me. This part's me. This really connects. Trading the books, I think that could be one of the most helpful exercises you do in your marriage this year. If you guys would. Would do that. So, man, that was. That was a great idea. So, Shanti, what final words of wisdom do you have for us? We could listen to you all day.

We really could.

You guys are so sweet. No, I just, I really appreciate what you guys are doing and I'm really, really grateful to be just a little piece a piece of it. I. The one thing that is fun right now, you're talking about this before we started this is that we're actually launching a podcast with family life shortly called Questions Every Wife. Oh, that's. That's the tentative title.

Love it.

And coming out soon and so people can find out about that on shaunti.com as well.

Awesome.

I cannot wait to wait to listen.

Can't wait. Well, we can't wait to have you on.

Oh, we would love it.

We'll have you on the podcast as well.

Anytime.

Honored.

Well, hey, give. Give Jeff a big hug for us. We love you guys. Keep up the great work. And for those who are listening, thank you for listening to the Naked Marriage and we'll look forward to seeing you back next next time.

Bye, guys.