When Joy and Sorrow Collide

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That's right. And thank you guys so much for leaving your reviews. When you leave a five star review, it lets people know about our podcast and plus it just keeps us going. We love hearing from you all. So today this is from lifesource lady and she entitled it Divorce but Preparing for Marriage. She said, I've been divorced for 13 years because he found someone else. But God has laid it on my heart to pray for my future husband, so I believe that he is going to bless me with a godly man. I cannot say enough of how much I love your podcast. So inspiring and informational. I hope and pray that whoever God has for me has him listening to. Thank you Sheila. Thank you Sheila so much for sharing that. And I just think there's so much wisdom in preparing for marriage. I mean that's just so awesome. And you know, Sheila is actually one of several messages we've received from people who are single or divorced and they're wanting to be be married someday. And I think that's just such an awesome thing. So please tell tell your single friends who want to be married someday about this podcast as well. Before we dive in, we want to let you know about a really cool new way to experience exo.

Yeah, that's right. I'm so excited about this. Of course Exo, referring to our Exo Marriage Conference, the biggest marriage conference in the country. It happens on Valentine's Day weekend live in South Lake, Texas, and it simulcast churches and locations all around the globe. But for the first time ever this year, you and your spouse can watch and experience the EXO Marriage Conference right at home, live or on demand. You can have your own watch party, your own mini conference with your small group at your house, or you and your spouse can just watch it naked in the bedroom and experience it for the first time. Truly, the naked marriage during the EXO Marriage Conference. You can get all the information about this if you go to xomarriage.com at home. That's a t h ome exomarriage.com and we hope to see you there, either live or on demand. We know it's going to be a great encouragement to your marriage. So let's dive into today's episode.

Hey, guys. We are so happy to be coming to you today because it is Christmas time.

Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas. We love the Christmas season so much. It's such an awesome time to get together with family. But we also want to own the fact that. That for a lot of us, we are dealing with the reality that maybe someone that we love so much isn't here with us anymore. Like, maybe someone has passed on or maybe things just aren't the same and we're grieving the loss of how Christmas used to be when we were kids or when maybe kids were little and now they're grown and they're gone and they can't come home this Christmas. Or maybe, maybe you're listening to this and you're divorced right now and it's the first Christmas without your spouse and things are just gonna be different because you're sharing custody of the children and you don't know how it's gonna look. We want to own the fact that it's not always the happiest time of year for people. And so how do we deal with that and how do we make Christmas better through the grieving process?

Yes. And so many people are hurting at the holidays because really, Christmas, it can be the most joyous time of the year. But what it really is is it's an amplifier. It amplifies everything that you're feeling so the good things in your life can feel even better at Christmas. And. But what we don't talk about enough is that the difficult things in your life can seem even harder. The losses in your life, the people that you've lost, you feel that more acutely around Christmas time. And we've had several requests leading up to Christmas for people asking specifically, can you address this issue of how to deal with grieving or with loss or with pain with our spouse together? Because what grief can do oftentimes is be a wedge to drive a couple apart because we each grieve in such unique and individual ways. Grief is kind of like fingerprint. It looks different on everybody. And so when we're dealing with a loss, a loss of a loved one or any kind of loss, our spouse is most likely dealing with that same loss in a different way. And so we have to find a way to support each other and to give each other time and space to work through it in a healthy way. And this isn't just a Christmas issue at that point. Like, you know, working through grief and loss is something that all year round, I think couples have to find a way to do. But it is one of those things I think we do feel in a unique way around Christmas time.

We do. And, you know, we're going to talk first and foremost about, you know, if you are dealing with the loss of someone, and maybe this is your first Christmas or maybe this is your 10th Christmas without that person, you know, in talking with friends and colleagues who've dealt with this, you know, it never really goes away. You know, when you lose a parent, when you lose a child, a close friend, whoever it is, a sibling, when you're dealing with that, it's never like that feeling of loss goes away. You just have to live without that person. And I just wanna level with people who are listening to that, and maybe you haven't experienced that before, and maybe your spouse is experiencing it this Christmas. Just remember that. Remember that that hole in their heart never totally goes away. But that doesn't mean that God can't bring them comfort, that God can't bring them joy in the midst of that pain, you know? Cause when we love someone and then we lose them and they go to heaven, we know we are gonna see them. The good news about believers is that we will see them again one day in heaven. But right now, we have to live on this earth without them. And so whenever Christmas rolls around, or really any holiday, it's just kind of like Dave said, it brings that back into our mind and our heart, realizing that Christmas just isn't the same without them. And so if you and your spouse are going through this right now, just remember, like Dave said, that you're gonna grieve differently. You know, a lot of times when Spouses start fighting over grief or having resentment or maybe they're not even talking. A lot of times it's not even that they're fighting, it's that they're just not talking about it. It like, let's say that you've experienced the loss of a child, which I can't even imagine a greater loss that a couple can go through. When you experience the loss of a child, you both are grieving that loss, but you're going to grieve differently. And what often happens is if one spouse is more outward with their grief, like they're actually crying, you know, physical tears, or they are angry about the holiday because they don't really want to celebrate it without this child being present. They look at their spouse who's still, who's trying to celebrate, who's trying to maybe see the good in the holiday and trying to maybe celebrate the memories of that child. They look at that spouse who's not crying and who's not as outward with their feelings necessarily, and they think you don't miss them as much or you.

Didn'T care as much, you didn't love.

Them as much, you didn't care as much.

Which of course isn't true at all.

You know, that's not true. And that, that can cause a lot of friction.

Yeah, it really can. And it can be a, it can be the very wedge that, that drives a couple apart permanently if, if we're not really careful about it. Another aspect is like when one spouse has lost someone, you know, a parent, exactly where they're going to feel it in a way that's different than the other spouse. You know, losing, losing one of, one of your in laws can hurt, but it's not going to hurt in the same way as losing.

Well, they didn't raise you.

Yeah. Because you didn't, you know, they didn't raise you. You don't have that lifetime of history. So. And that's been the dynamic of some people who've asked this is like, how do I support my spouse? Is they're the one who's really grieving or, you know, what do I do to like help my spouse support me because I'm the one who's grieving. And again, I think that these are conversations in every couple that you just have to be really honest about what you need. You know, I had a good friend, Daniel, who lost a wife to cancer at 29 years old. It was so tragic. And you know, now, you know, later he actually is remarried to a widow herself and they've you know, they've combined their families, and both in the ashes of that incredible tragedy are, you know, moving forward and. But just even watching their dynamic of celebrating the life of these spouses who were lost, who died so young, and honoring their legacy and grieving and letting the children grieve, but while at the same time celebrating the good. I just think that there's no exact roadmap for this. It's a messy. But you've got to give each other a ton of grace. And when I was asking Daniel specifically, when he was in the aftermath of. Of having lost his wife and kind of coming out of that, I said, what helped you the most? You know, what was the support that meant the most to you? And he said, if somebody's hurting, don't tell them that everything's going to be okay. He said, just be with them until they can say that everything's going to be okay. And he talked about the ministry of just presence, of like, you don't have to know what to say because the person doesn't even. They're not even going to remember everything that was said, but they'll never forget that you were there. And so in marriage, you have a very unique and sacred responsibility and opportunity to just be there for each other, for that spouse who's hurting. When they feel like crying, hold them, cry with them. When they feel like, you know, laughing in the midst of their tears, then laugh with them. You know, the Bible says, rejoice with those who rejoice. Grieve with those who grieve. The Bible also says, carry each other's burdens, and in this way, you will fulfill the law of Christ. Never let your spouse feel like that. This is their burden to bear alone, even if they're the one who is primarily feeling it because it's a best friend that they lost or a parent that they lost. But let them know that this is something like all things that we share together. And I want to carry this burden with you, and I want to walk with you in this.

Absolutely. And I think, too, we have to remember that you can't rush the grieving process. I think so many times couples kind of have frustration because one spouse is trying to rush the other, and they're like, you know, that spouse who experienced the loss is like, you know, I can't help how I feel. I can't help this process. You know, it really. There are stages of grief. There's literally stages of grief. And you can even just Google that and look it up, and it's you know, it starts usually with denial. There's this grief, you know, this period of denial. Like, you know, they have passed on. But there's kind of this denial of, like, no, everything's fine. And then you move into, like, the reality of it. And it's just that hard reality of knowing, you know, I'm not going to see them until heaven, like, and I don't know how long that's going to be. And we're just gonna have to go through every year without this person that I love so much. And then eventually, you know, I think there, there is a healing towards the end of that. And I'm not giving you the exact, you know, title of each stage, but if you look this up, there's a process to that. And I think it'd be really good for the spouse who maybe isn't going through the grief process right now to look this up. Just to give yourself an idea of where your spouse is in the stages of grief. And it is a psychological process that all of us go through when it comes to grief. But the kicker of this is that everybody spends a different amount of time at those different stages of grief. And you can't rush it. Like, we all have to go through it. And it is, you know, it's chronological. Like, it's in a pattern of how we have to go through it. And sometimes, too, you can kind of regress a little bit. And that's where as a spouse, you really have a unique opportunity to come in and help your spouse get the help that they need. Because if they're kind of stuck, stuck in one of those stages, maybe they're just like, in kind of the middle of it and they're just unable to get past feeling this loss and feeling like their life is over. Maybe they feel like their life is over too. Cause this person is no longer in their life. And, you know, they may need to get some professional help. And there are grief counselors that are specially trained to help you through this. I would definitely go see a Christian grief counselor because no one, you know, if they don't have the hope of Christ, they're not going to give you the advice that you need. Because the. The one wonderful thing about being a Christian is knowing the truth, that we get to see them again. And so you definitely wanna go see a Christian grief counselor. And there's also groups that meet at churches, I think, through Celebrate Recovery. If you look that up, they have grief groups. And I also think that there's still a ministry around called Grief Share where it meets at churches all around the United States. It's a great ministry and it's a great ministry to help you meet with other people. Now I know sometimes I've met with people who are going through this and they're like, that's the last thing I wanna do. I'm already dealing with my own grief. Why would I wanna go hear about other people's grief? And so it's individual. If you, if that does not like, seem like something you want to be a part of, that part of that's fine. But I want to encourage you to know that sometimes we can get so isolated in our feelings and so hyper focused on our loss that we forget about all the blessing that God has given us and that we're not the only ones walking through loss. And you also don't realize that you have, you know, maybe you're further along in your grief process. And if you go and become a part of these support groups, you could be that one person to help another person get through it. Because only a person who's gone through that same kind of loss can help you in that special way that you need help. And so I just want to encourage you to not get so isolated. Don't, don't cut your spouse off too. Don't, don't kind of, you know, when they're trying to comfort you, push them away. Because they haven't experienced the same loss of a parent per se, or a best friend, like Dave said. Let them in and tell them how you're truly feeling. And if you're having a hard day, talk about it, don't just go silent, but also tell them what you need. You know, if you do need some time to yourself, if you do need a little quiet time, it's okay to tell them that and to say, listen, I'm not mad at you. I'm really not mad at anybody right now. But I just need some time alone to just gather my thoughts. I'm just really having a hard day today.

Yeah, I think all of that is so good. And grief itself, like Ashley said, it can be. It's something that can't be rushed. Right? And if you've experienced certain kinds of loss, you never fully get over it all on this side of heaven. You know, I've heard it said that you get through it, but you never really get over it or you move forward. But that doesn't mean that you've truly moved on. Because that particular pain, like the pain of losing a child, is a unique kind of pain that the wound doesn't fully heal on this side of heaven. Now in heaven, thankfully, the Bible says Jesus will wipe every tear from our eyes and all will be made new. And we're reminded that our pain is temporary and our joy will be eternal. And we find such hope in that. But it's okay. Like, I've got friends, Wes and Kelly, who lost their precious son Graham, to a rare chromosomal disease when he was only two years old. And that in the aftermath of that grief, I mean, it just completely, completely broke their hearts. And then several years later, they adopted two precious, beautiful twin daughters. And I think it might have been last Christmas, Wes posted a picture of his precious baby girls and their Christmas dresses, these little girls. And he put one of the most profound things about grief that I've maybe ever seen. He said, the human heart is so complex. He said, because I can say fully that I'm a man with a broken heart. And at the same time, I can say I'm a truly happy man. Yes, with a picture of his girls, but at the same time acknowledging I'll never fully heal of the heartbreak of losing my son. And that's okay. You know that God is with us in it. He's with us in our joy. He's with us in our pain. And as a couple, we need to be with each other the same way. With each other in the joy and with each other in the pain. And even when those things are happening simultaneously, to experience the joy and the pain all at once, the laughter and the tears together and to remind each other, we're in this together and we're gonna get through this together.

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Wow.

Visit burlington.com coats for details. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsored jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate C. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs have four times more applicants than non sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. You know, absolutely. And speaking about Wes and Kelly, you know, I want to kind of move the conversation to, well, what do we do with this? Like, what do we do in the midst of grief when we're just so missing our loved ones who've passed on? You know, one thing they did, and this took a little bit of time, you know, in their grief process, but they started, you know, something called the Teddy Graham, where they get people in the community to put together these packs for parents and kids who are in long hospital stays going through very similar things that they went through with their child Graham. And they. They basically pay it forward and bless families. And they know specifically what these families need because they walk through it for a long period of time. And so they're using their loss to be a blessing and to start a new tradition. And they've been doing it for the last several years and will continue doing it. And it's just such a blessing to so many people. And I think it turns their grief into something that isn't just so sad. It's like, you know, we can use this hard thing for good. And, you know, and, you know, in the word, it talks about God never wasting our pain. He'll use it for our good and for his glory. And that's one way that Wes and Kelly have chosen to do that. Now when it comes to you, you know, if you lost someone, you can still celebrate the life that they had. You can celebrate the time that God gave you with them. And, you know, we were talking with a friend today. She was talking about how she lost her dad and said, you know, and my dad was just so into Christmas. And so every Christmas, it's like, I feel that loss even more because he would make Christmas so wonderful. But she said, I really cling to the fact of how wonderful he made those Christmases and not necessarily the loss so much. And it helps me. And so it's like, you gotta turn your thinking, you gotta watch those thoughts because it is easy to just fall into maybe even a depression. I mean, a lot of times they say, you know, there's a lot more depression around Christmastime for those who've experienced loss. And so we really need to kind of watch where our thoughts go and get around people who also. Also loved that loved one and talk about those good times, bring out the pictures, you know, laugh together and talk about how much, you know, he would think that was hilarious or how much he would love this one thing or how much he wouldn't like that because, you know, he never liked this. And, you know, it's just. It's good to be around people who also appreciated your loved one as much as you did and you do, and keeping their memory alive. And so start those new traditions, meet at that coffee house they always loved. Go to that place where you guys always hung out and just have that time. I think it's really good to do those kind of moments to remember that person and feel like they're not being forgotten, because I think so many times that's what we worry about is I don't want. I don't want to forget their memory and the times I had with them. But I also. I don't want other people to. You know, I want to make sure.

I keep their memory alive and create new traditions.

Absolutely.

You know, if it's impossible to have Christmas exactly how it was instead of fiercely trying to recreate exactly what's happened.

To us, because it won't be the same.

Yeah. No matter what. Even if you haven't lost someone, life changes, seasons change. And build on those traditions of the past and celebrate them, but don't be afraid to do new things and to start new traditions. And that's not a betrayal of the past. That's actually building on the past, and that's making the future all that it can be, and the present all that it can be. So, yeah. Dream with your spouse and talk together about what. What new traditions could look like.

And I want to say this, too. I remember in our small group, we had several families that were blended families. And, you know, one Christmas they would have the kids, and then the next Christmas they wouldn't. And we always had a tradition in our group where we would go see the. They called it, I think, Lights of the South. We lived in Georgia at the time, and every year for, like, I mean, close to 10 years, we would go to Lights of the South. And it was just so awesome. It was this wonderful tradition. But I remember the first year that our friends didn't have their kids. You know, they were, again, a blended family. And they were so, like, I don't know if we should go to Lights of the south because everybody's bringing their kids. And we were like, no, you need to keep on coming. I mean, you're still part of our group. And let's still get hot cocoa and look at the lights and do all these things. And they were really reluctant to go, but they did. They were like, no, we're going to celebrate. We're not just going to sit at home and be like, well, we can't do anything fun because we don't have the kids this year. And they did, and they had the best time. And they said, you know, we're so glad that we went, because we would have been just sat at home thinking about what we're missing, and instead we decided to go. So sometimes you gotta really fight those. Those kind of. I don't know, that mental battle of, like, well, it's not gonna be the same. So I'm just gonna sit at home and be sad, you know, go out and do things, but also realize that it's okay. It's okay. You know the expression it's okay not to be okay. Sometimes that's okay. I mean, own it and say, like, I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed that we don't have the kids this year, but, you know, maybe start a new tradition with the two of you that you can go on a special date or something and celebrate Christmas in another special way. And then when you do get the kids the next year, start a new tradition, you know, with them that year. And. And then know that you're. You know, you're kind of every other year gonna have that thing that you guys do together and not see it as such a terrible thing that you're dreading and allowing it to ruin your Christmas.

Yeah. Yeah. I knew one blended family that just said, you know what? We're gonna. We're gonna just promote peace and give, you know, the other spouses Christmas Day, the day itself, Christmas Eve, even. We're not gonna fight about that. And we're gonna make a new tradition where they just picked a date, like, you know, December 27th or something. That is our. That is our family Christmas celebration. Because we don't know exactly what date Jesus was born on. You know, I mean, we could celebrate it on the 27th, and that might. Who knows? Maybe that's closer to the real one. But they just said, this is the day we celebrate. And they created a new tradition. And, you know, it was just something they look forward to every year. And so.

And it wasn't a fight, too.

It wasn't a fight. It wasn't like, a fight when you're, like, fighting over. No. Like, it's a turf war over these holidays. We're kind of missing the peace that the Prince of Peace came to bring us.

And so think outside of the box.

Yes. Yeah. And make sure that you're bringing peace and joy and all the things that Jesus came to bring into every holiday and every day that you celebrate, regardless of what time of the year it is.

That's absolutely True. And, you know, when it comes to people who are living away from their family, like, maybe this is your first Christmas where you are away from all your family. And Dave and I can relate to this. We grew up in Kentucky, but we. We lived in Georgia for about 10 years, and then now we're in Texas. So we. We get being far away from family. And, you know, there were years we were able to go home, and then there were years we weren't able to go home. And I think, you know, there were times where we'd be kind of sad. You know, we'd go to church service, and then we'd come home and be like, well, there's nobody to have Christmas dinner with. And so we started a new tradition in Georgia and where we invited other people in our same predicament where we didn't have family around, and we were like, we're gonna have kind of a dinner with all of our friends to celebrate Christmas. And you know what? It became the sweetest time. And people look forward to it every year. So you have to really turn things around, pray about it, and say, God, reveal to me how I can make this Christmas better. And not feel sorry for myself and not feel sad and not get lost in my grief and not get lost in my anger or resentment or whatever it is that you're experiencing. And know that each year brings new things, and there are always things to celebrate.

I'm gonna tell a quick story that relates to this, and then we're gonna dive into this week's question. But several years ago, we bought this gingerbread house at Walmart. And on the. I was.

We do this every year.

Yeah. We started a new tradition. Yes. So I was so excited because I pictured this beautiful gingerbread house that looked just like the one on the box. And I thought, we're gonna build it, and my kids, we're gonna gather around the fire and build this gingerbread house. And it's gonna look like a scene from a Charles Dickens novel. And my children are going to look up at me like Tiny Tim and say, God bless his father, everyone. You're the best father. And I just had this picture of what it was going to be. Well, life never works out the way that the picture in our head is. And because the picture in our head isn't. Isn't real. And so on the way home, they were fighting over the box. And by the time we got home, we dumped out the pieces of the gingerbread house and the walls, and all of it was broken up into little pieces, shards of gingerbread. And I was so mad. Now my dream, my vision for what Christmas was gonna be was over. The gingerbread house was ruined, and I was ready to throw it away and just stomp up to my room like a spoiled toddler. And Ashley said, why are you throwing it away? And I'm like, cause it's ruined. It'll never look like the picture on the box. And she just smiled, and in her beauty and wisdom, said, it doesn't have to look like the picture on the box. And it kind of reframed my whole idea of what it could be. And so we got all those shards out, and she led the way in creating gingerbread cookies of all shapes and sizes. And we had so much fun that night, just covering those with icing and sprinkles and laughing and eating and. Yeah, we didn't have anything that looked like the picture on the box. Not at all. But it was something better. It was something real. It was something us. And it actually started a tradition where now we get the gingerbread house, and we just know that in our family, we're going to have a hard time keeping the pieces together. So we just break it right from the start, and we just make our own broken gingerbread cookies. And it's a fun tradition.

I love it.

And so what does it have to do with what we're talking about? Maybe in your grief, part of what you're grieving is the loss of a vision of what Christmas and life was going to look like. And you had this picture that was like, the beautiful, perfect picture on the box of that gingerbread house. And you're like, my life's never going to look like that, so what's the point of going on? But here's the beauty. Your life doesn't have to look like the picture on the box, right? That. That's. That's like an artificial vision that isn't real life. And your life can be something better. So take the broken pieces that you have and let God make masterpieces out of those broken pieces.

Absolutely. And, you know, before we go on to our Q and A portion of the podcast, we want to say a prayer for those of you who are dealing with grief this season. So, sweetie, will you pray for us?

Absolutely. Pray with you. If you're driving, please don't close your eyes. I don't want to be responsible for you going to heaven prematurely, but I just. Just received this prayer as. As an encouragement from God and a reminder that he is with us in our pain. The Bible says he's close to the brokenhearted. He rescues those whose spirits are crushed. So let's pray. Father, we thank you that, that you came to earth. Jesus, you came. You came to, to save us, to set us free, to give us purpose and to give us life. And once we put our faith and trust in you, you say we're a new creation, that we've been made whole, we've been made new, we've been adopted into your family. And all the pain we'll ever face in this life, God. And there will be pain. You promised there would be pain. But we'll never face it alone because you're with us. And one day in eternity with heaven, all that pain will make sense in a way that it doesn't here on earth. But in the meantime, God, for those of us who are hurting right now, I pray for your peace, your strength. Let them feel your presence in a unique way. We know you're with us all the time, God. But you also promise that you allow your presence to be felt in a unique way in our moments of greatest pain. And let that be true for those who are hurting right now. Let them receive that blessing and that promise and to know that you're going to carry them through this. Help them stop dreading Christmas or dreading whatever they're facing, even if they're listening to this in a time of year that's not Christmas time. God, pain is real year round, but your presence is real year round. And so I pray God that the peace and joy that you came to bring would be real and true and whole in their hearts and in their homes this morning. And God, that they would be able to give you the broken pieces of their heart and allow you to create a masterpiece out of those broken pieces and allow this pain they're facing to become a powerful part of their testimony that will give hope and strength to their family and to others who are hurting as well. Because you never waste our pain. We love you and we thank you. It's in Jesus name we pray. Amen.

Amen. All right, so now we are going to talk about our Q and A of the day. And you know we are Getting these from nakedmarriagepodcast.com we really appreciate you guys submitting your questions. And if you'd like to submit a question, you can go to nakedmarriagepodcast.com so here is today's question. It says, my wife's birthday is next week. I was out shopping for her when she called my phone on hearing my car start over the phone she asked why I was in my car and where I was. I tried to not spoil the surprise, but not answering the question didn't really work. She knows what I was trying to accomplish now. How do you keep a transparent marriage but still allow for being able to surprise your spouse? You know, this is such a great question, and this even applies to Christmas, too, because, you know, maybe you're purchasing something for your spouse that is supposed to be a surprise and you have, you know, a joint account like Dave and I do, and it's hard to do that sometimes. And. Or, like, maybe you do get a phone call when you're trying to plan something. So, sweetie, what would you say to that? We've been in that predicament before.

Yes. I mean, and I think that obviously trying to surprise your spouse with a gift is a completely different thing than, like, you know, hiding some sinister secret. So we do want transparency.

Absolutely.

But I think. And we've each thrown surprise birthday parties for each other, and it was so hard, which is so hard, because we hate. Hate keeping any kind of secret. Yeah. Thankfully, we are. Yes. But with something like this, I think it's okay just to acknowledge. You know what? I can't tell you where I am because I'm doing something for you. I mean, there's a little surprise coming for you, and that's all the information you're getting.

I'm so excited about that.

And I know. And just be playful with it. So you're being honest, but you're also letting them know that I can't give you all the information right now. And it's not because I'm trying to keep secrets in our marriage. It's because I'm trying to surprise you with something and to just have fun with that.

I think that's great. I think even when it comes to a surprise birthday, you can even tease, like, I may or may not be doing something. I don't know. I mean, you'll have to see. And I mean, you know, it can be. It is a little complicated, especially if you're planning, like, an entire party and you're, like, having all these correspondences with people and trying to be secretive with it. But I think the biggest thing is do the planning for whatever surprise gift or event that you're doing, but then quickly get back to not having any kind of secrets whatsoever because you just don't want it to become a secretive way. But having these little instances where you're having these surprises for your spouse are really fun.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's Great. And so have fun this Christmas.

Yes. And hope she has a great birthday, too. That's so sweet.

Yes, I think that's great. I hope she loves whatever you got her. So, you know, one little plug for, for a last minute Christmas gift or a gift any time of the year is get your spouse tickets to one of our XO Marriage conference events. Yes.

They are so awesome.

We, in our marriage, sharing experiences is always something we love more than just giving gifts because we love creating experiences Together. And the EXO Marriage Conferences. You can learn more about these at xomarriage.com whether you come to our big one in February here in Texas or one of the tour stops around the country, it is just a wonderful way for you to spend a weekend just focusing on each other. These events are fun. There is so much laughter. You'll laugh until your stomach hurts. You will. And you'll walk away feeling closer to God, closer to each other, and having had a lot of fun. And so I think that could be. I wouldn't even plan on talking about this, but I just think that would be a really, really great Christmas gift idea. So, guys, thank you for listening. Special thanks to the team who makes this possible. Our audio engineer, Chris Stetson, and and our producer, Brittany Wilcox, who sit and. And have to listen to us talk about awkward things like sex and all the different weird stuff we talk about.

And they're amazing.

They make it happen. And Brandon, our editor, and the whole team at Marriage Today. You know, I think holidays are a great time to just focus on people in your life you're thankful for. And we are so thankful for this team.

We are. We will see you guys next time.