Work Wife

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All right, well, I'm excited about today's topic because it is a term many would consider a term of endearments, but it's a term that might actually harm your marriage. And that is. And there's actually two terms, work wife or work husband. What do we do with this? Is it okay to use this? Is this something good? Is this something bad? We're going to talk about all the things and. Yeah, but we've, we've heard a lot of people in our own lives use this reference. It could even be in church world. You know, it can be like we've heard pastors, you know, refer to their assistant as a work wife. Now, I will say, too, in the work that we do, we've also seen that not end well. So.

Yeah, we have d. Indeed. Seen.

Indeed.

Well, so this is a nuanced issue. We're going to dive right in. I'm happy to have my actual work wife here because you're both my wife and my work partner. Yes. And we need to, at some point in the future, I think this would be really interesting. Do a whole episode on working together with your spouse.

Yes.

Because it's a very unique dynamic. And just, I mean, obviously every couple works together in some capacity, but we mean, like, vocationally when you're working together. You know, like Ashley's parents have, you know, managed Airbnbs, and they've also flipped homes together and done a lot of those kinds of projects together where their actual job isn't necessarily working together, but they do a lot of jobs together. My parents work together. Dad is a consultant. Mom works in partnership with him, kind of managing all the finances with that. And. And they found a way to kind of do it as a partnership. And then you've got, like, what Ashley and I do where we literally every part of our work we do together, which is a joy. But that's not what we're talking about in this episode. That's a separate episode.

Yes.

This is that dynamic where from nine to five or whatever your hours happen to be, you have that opposite sex coworker that you have a camaraderie with, that you have a partnership with. And it can be potentially totally platonic or at least ostensibly, to use a big word, totally love that word. Seems that way on the surface, but there's potentially more to it. And boundaries can get crossed when there's a comfort level. I think what it comes down to is there being a danger of having just a very boundary free comfort level with someone of the opposite sex. Because you've just learned to this banter, this kind of shorthand banter with each other to expedite work. You can talk about whatever's going on outside of work and you're very comfortable with each other. So you don't even see it as potentially being damaging or dangerous because you think, well, this isn't sexual and this isn't going to go sexual. But that comfort level can create so much danger that can quickly turn sexual once you have like this, this depth of intimacy and comfort with somebody.

Right?

So, and then honestly just kind of the term my work, work wife, work husband is just kind of creepy anyway because it's saying, you know, it's saying it's cheapening the covenant of marriage. And I'm not trying to be an old fuddy duddy here, just the term fuddy duddy makes you sound fuddy duddy. But it sort of just cheapens the whole covenant of marriage to say like, oh, well, you know, I'm married to my spouse outside of work, but from nine to five, basically, it's essentially like I'm married to this person, right? And we've just, we lean on each other and we get stuff done and we make it work. And then I clock out and I go home and to my actual spouse. But there's this window of time where it's almost like, I'm not married to my spouse, I'm married to this person. And it can be dangerous.

It can be. And some of you listening to this might be shaking your heads like, you know what, this is just semantics. This is just words. This is not even like a thing that's an issue. And maybe for you it's not like maybe it really is just like a pet name. But just I will tell you this. Usually in working with couples who embrace these kind of things, like work wife, work husband, or maybe even other pet names for someone else in their life who is of the opposite sex, you may think like, if you're the one using that pet name, you may think it's fine. But I bet if you really sat down and you ask your spouse if they're okay with that, they're probably not. And that's what we found is like you're assuming your spouse is okay because they haven't actually said anything, but it's like they maybe haven't brought it up to you because they're like, well, I mean, it's not like it's going to change anything. And, and, but deep inside their heart, they're kind of sinking a little bit because they're like, man, he has this connection with this other person and, and clearly it's a close connection. Yeah, it may not be sexual, but it's a heart connection of some kind. Or she has this connection with this other person. And, you know, it's just dangerous territory. You know, we talk all the time about boundaries, and I think this is one of those things that really crosses a boundary because you really do end up sharing your heart. And where we see this become a problem and is when, like, maybe you've had this good working relationship with someone, you feel like they get you. You feel like they do stuff without you even having to ask. Or, or they just, you know, they're always like Johnny on the spot, so to speak. They're always the one, you know, getting it done. And so you really admire them for that. And where we see this turn into an issue is when maybe things aren't so good at home and you feel like your spouse isn't doing those things for you. Like, you would like them, like whatever kind of thing you wish they would do at home, like keeping a cleaner house or being more thoughtful with their, maybe gifts for you or lack thereof. Or, you know, planning out things for you guys to do together. Or maybe they're not a very, you know, good disciplinarian and you look at this other person, you're like, man, I bet, you know, they're a good disciplinarian. Or you start playing this comparison game and it's just so dangerous because it's. It's something where you're kind of setting your spouse up, first of all for a competition that they're not even supposed to be in. And then for one, they can't even win. Because the truth is, in marriage, I mean, you see the good, the bad and the ugly in this working relationship. You're just seeing like, I mean, it's kind of like the highlights of the day. I mean, yeah, you're working through the day, but essentially you're not living with this person. So you're not seeing all of their odd things.

They do their morning breath, and you're not seeing them, like, you know, stumbling around, you know, at, at their worst. You're seeing them put together. You're seeing them, you know, it's Just.

All of those things in the professional environment. I mean, it might be, you might say we use this term, but it's very professional. But just in the amount of time you're spending, it's. It can lend itself to sharing maybe more than you want to share. And when you feel like you have this camaraderie where you are calling them your work spouse, it. It just lends itself to maybe crossing that boundary of what you should share. And I think too, you know, what we see too with this dynamic is sometimes you end up sharing your concerns that you have about your spouse with this person of the opposite sex, and suddenly they're speaking into your marriage. And what we often find too is it's like they see themselves as way better than, you know, we all. Yeah, I would never treat you that way. You know, I can't believe she said that. I can't believe he said that.

And they're trying to support a friend, but really it's, it's, it's so out of bounds. I think another element in all this is just kind of the world we're living in right now where many of us have moved to remote work. And you think, like, I don't have a work wife or work husband the way that I did because there's not even an office as much. So we're on Zoom a lot. We're. But honestly, the digital world can even be even more dangerous because we let our guard down even more. We think, oh, well, there's no way of having intimate contact with this person. So I feel safe in my text messages to be just really transparent. I feel safe, you know, on, on the phone. And those, you know, voice to voice can be, I mean, that can be an intimate form of communication where we let our guard down even more. Because at least in an office setting, there's like a. There's this air of professionalism that we try to keep. But sometimes when you're just texting, you're talking on the phone, it can happen at all different hours. And we just, we feel a connection and closeness to maybe a person that. That becomes really unhealthy and we have to stay so guarded, and we have to be mindful of the boundaries we're putting in place, even in our text, professional text messages, to one on one of the opposite sex, to those Zoom calls. So we're not even just talking about a physical office location. Don't let your guard down. If you just work remotely or if you just do contract work and there's somebody that you Stay connected to through that, where you end up having a lot of conversations or interactions digitally or in real life, so to speak. Because all of those, all of those can create these unhealthy connections that we're talking about. If you don't have boundaries in place.

You know, it's so true. And you might be listening to this and watching this and thinking, well, what is, you know, what's up, Dave and Ashley? Do you expect us to never have any connection with any other person besides our spouse? And I would say no. I mean, you need to have good relationships, so to speak, with your workmates, but you really have to watch your heart connection. It's really about the heart. And here's kind of some red flags. Do you find yourself, first of all, comparing your spouse to your, your work wife, your work husband, do you find, you know, comparing your spouse, are you doing that on a regular basis? Do you also find yourself kind of feeling maybe closer in conversation to this, this workmate than you do your spouse? And that's a huge red flag.

Oh, yeah.

Do you find yourself dressing in a certain way where you're thinking, thinking about what they're going to think when they see you wearing what you're wearing, you know, instead of thinking about how your spouse looks at you, but thinking about, oh, I hope this person like, finds me attractive today. That's a red flag.

That's a huge red flag.

Huge red flag.

Yeah.

And I would say one of the biggest red flags is you're having a text thread or a conversation or a video chat, whatever it is, and you really hope your spouse never sees this. Maybe you even do like a sweep of your, you know, your searches, like, or whatever. Like you erase stuff and you try to make sure it's not there, you guys, if we ever find ourselves there. That is just a huge, a huge dangerous place.

Because for any relationship, not just anything, if you're hiding conversations, if you're hiding stuff, that's, gosh, that's so out of bounds. That's the opposite of the naked marriage. When we talk about the naked marriage, we're talking about total transparency. And that's, that's what a marriage requires, by God's design. So the moment we're hiding anything, if you're hiding purchases, if you're hiding anything, you're breaking that sacred trust in marriage. But yeah, the moment you're hitting delete on a text thread or anything like that, then let that be a wake up call to you that I have stepped way out of bounds.

Yeah. And you're gonna say, well, maybe that's me. Like, you've. I said those red flags, and you're like, ooh, I have several of those. Or maybe all of those. Here's what you need to do. You need to start distancing yourself. You need to start distancing yourself from this person and putting boundaries in place. And that means, like, you're including your spouse or another workmate on those text threads. Okay? Cause I know some of this work is sensitive and confidential, but you can usually put, you know, someone else maybe at the office who maybe is, you know, maybe higher up than you on that thread, just to be beyond reproach, because there's just. You don't want anything, first of all. You don't want anything to happen. You don't want to step out of bounds and end up actually sleeping with this person. But you also don't want anybody spreading rumors either. And so you gotta be beyond reproach. And sometimes that means doing things that in the professional world might seem weird, you know, like not riding in the car by yourselves. I mean, whenever we've talked about that, I've had Christian friends of mine be like, you guys are crazy, you know, And I'm like, no. We have seen countless people say, you know, whenever we share about this, they'll write us and say, thank you for talking about this. I never thought it would be an issue, but it caught me. You know, this person had always been kind of close to me at work. I went through a vulnerable time in my marriage and this other person was too. And before you knew it, like, before we even realized it, we ended up crossing that line. And whether, you know, having physical affection and even sex or at the very.

Least an emotional affair can. And we've talked a lot about emotional affairs. They can be just as damaging as is a sexual affair. Because that connection, that unnatural intimate connection with somebody where you're leaning on them for sort of spouse level emotional support is so damaging and certainly an act of infidelity in itself, even if there's never been physical affection.

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We didn't personally.

No, not as personally. I'm sorry. Watching this. No, it wasn't part of our story.

It hit close to home.

It hit close to home. Yes.

I'm a senior pastor and female worship leader at the church where I had my very first ministry job. We were newlyweds at the time. They fell into an affair. They were both married. They fell into a sexual affair with each other.

And none of us saw the signs.

No, because we just thought, oh, they just have a close connection. They're just. He was quite a bit older. We thought it was almost like this kind of fatherly mentoring kind of connection. Right. But they let those guards down. They were riding in cars together and nobody. People trusted them so much. They thought, oh, well, there's nothing to it. But if they would have just had just those basic boundaries in place.

Yes.

It would not have happened. And. But we've got to be so, just so careful. And so on guard. Like, you know, I've. I've talked to Ashley in the past about, like, I've got to be careful. And this was before, you know, we were working together. Now that we're together all the time. But if, like, when I go to work, I've got to be careful of anyone who's doing acts of service for me.

Right?

Because Acts of Service is my love language. Like, you know, the Love Language book by, you know, Dr. Gary Smalley, which is just, you know, a perennial classic.

Not Gary Smalley, Gary Chapman.

Gary Chapman.

I was like, there's so many awesome. Gary's books, too.

Yeah, look up Gary Smalley's books, too.

But Dr. Gary, there's like, three marriage authors that have the name Gary.

Gary Thomas as well. Those three Gary's pretty much everything you need to know about marriage.

But Gary Chapman is the author of the Five Love Languages.

Five Love Languages. Amazing book. It just changed the conversation. And basically there are five love languages. Um, all of us are drawn toward one as our primary one. And in marriage, it's important to know yours and know your spouses. And so their physical touch, which isn't just sex, it's like physical affection, or in Ashley's case, a rub language.

Rub language, rub my feet.

She likes a back rub, foot rub, physical touch. Words of affirmation, gifts, quality time, quality time, and acts of service. And mine is acts of service. Like, I mean, just somebody taking something off my plate is, like, sexy to me. And so I've got to be careful for anybody in my life that is like, that has a servant's heart or whatever, and, like, they're doing things for me to make my life easier because that acts of service. Part of me all of a sudden is drawn to that and can quickly go from appreciation to, without even realizing it, being attracted to that. And so Ashley does so much for me, and, like, there's nobody ever, ever that's gonna, like, take her place. I'm just saying, like, we all watch your heart. We all have to watch our heart. Because every single one of us, we've got blind spots where it's like, certain person, maybe, like, you're a words of affirmation person and your spouse isn't naturally, vocally this, like, big encourager, and you've got somebody. Like, I've also had to be careful. I've stopped you before with my words because, like, I'm. I'm an encourager by nature. And I love to build people up. I love to, like, compliment. And I've had to take a step back because Ashley helped me see a blind spot here where I would compliment women. Not on, like, like at church. Not like, hey, you look sexy today.

Not like, no, he's never been creepy like that.

I'm not that guy. But because I had this blind spot. Well, like, if I'm not talking about physical appearance or something that would, you know, clearly kind of seem like you're hitting on him, then any compliment is just a. Is just an act of encouragement and part of what I'm wired and even called to do. And I would just, you know, speak like, oh, you're just amazing at this and you're, you know, and build people up. And Ashley helped me see, like, when you're building somebody up like that, especially if they're not getting that at home, especially if maybe their words of affirmation, love language thing, like, like, they're going to be drawn to that and they're going to read into that.

Yes.

And it could be potentially dangerous. And so I've had to be, you know, really, really vigilant about the encouragement I give to still be an encourager, but to back it way off if I'm giving, you know, encouragement to a woman.

Right.

And I've. It's really changed the way that I see it. And so now I try to keep my encouragement broader, like through sermons or through what we do here or, you know, kind of more collectively encouraging couples together or.

And you'll encourage people. It's just like not being too. Like, this sounds kind of. Some people listening may not understand this, but even as a pastor, you have to be careful because you get people, a lot of times in desperate situations and even people who aren't pastors. I mean, you can find people in your life who are in desperate situations, so longing for an encouraging word. And you can. Can fill that void as far as giving an encouraging word. But if it goes on and on, like, if it's a little bit and all of a sudden beyond encouraging, my.

Husband never sees that.

Yes. Yes.

He's never noticed that in me.

Right. And it can be. It's a fragile time for that person. And so really, it's not just to protect. It's not for Dave just to protect himself and to protect our marriage. It's also to protect that other person.

Of course. Yeah.

And so it's not that you're holding back encouragement. You encourage people all day long. You're so good at that.

Thank you, Jesus.

But it's like not being. Not including too many details. I think that's what I told you. I said, you know, you gotta be careful with the details because the details are what kind of perk someone up. Like, you notice that?

Oh yeah, you're noticing.

You're seeing me. You see, I feel seen, you know that I feel seen, you know, like that. And people want to feel seen. But we've got to be so careful to not to not, you know, allow ourselves to put our, to put ourselves in that situation where we're kind of going, crossing a boundary and potentially forming this like emotional affair with someone. Because that is, that is what happens. And it's so easy, you guys. Like it could happen to any of us. We have to be very mindful. I do think that this work wife, work husband dynamic is innocent enough when it starts. Like I don't think anybody's going out of their way. Like, you know what, I'm just going to go completely break my spouse's heart, really bust up my family and just really wreck my life like and go into an emotional or physical affair. I don't think anyone has that kind of intention. I think it starts so subtly and it's little things. It's like that subtle. Oh, you know, he really noticed me today. Or she really, you know, she really gets me. My wife never tells me that or you know, my husband would never do that for me. But at work they're giving me flowers. Just when I do a good, you know, job on this project, my husband never brings me flowers or things like that. We start thinking that. And so we've got to be so aware of where our mind goes. You know, I actually did a study recently in Deuteronomy in my grad classes and we were studying verses where it talks about loving God with all your heart, mind and soul. And I realized in this word study and verse study that the Hebrews, when they were writing for the word, you know, heart or mind, only had one word because it was leb L E B. And so heart and mind go together like as far as they're concerned, which is really rare in the Hebrew language because really our English language can't always capture Hebrew words. It's like they have multiple meanings, but in this one word, Lebanon, it's kind of flip flopped. You know, it has, it means heart and mind because you really can't separate the two because as you think it kind of settles into your heart and then you act right. And so we have to be so careful. Are we thinking all day about this work wife of ours or this work husband and how Great. They are. And how we're not getting this stuff at home. And then, you know, when we go home, then we're lashing out at our spouse. It's because we've allowed those thoughts to sink into our heart. We're kind of giving more of our heart to this work made of ours.

And.

And then what we do is we end up being cold to our spouse. And then we're hurting our marriage ultimately because we're putting distance between us and our spouse. So we have to be so aware of this. And that's why we're talking about this today.

Man, that is so, so good, guys. It comes down to. It comes down to respecting your spouse at all times in all places.

Yes.

And having healthy common sense boundaries in all times and all places.

I love that you said common sense because I just want to say this real quick. That's such a good word, sweetie. Is. We so many times think, I'm not. I'm going to be the exception to the role. I'm not going to. I can handle this. I don't need to have somebody on those text messages. I don't need to have someone else in the car because, you know, that would never happen. That's not using common sense. That's just basically trying to muster up, like, the courage to not be tempted. But that's not what God asks us to do. He says flee temptation.

Yeah. And that is just if you find yourself seated.

Boundaries.

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe this is the wake up call. Maybe this has been a blind spot for you and that's okay like that. I'm just thankful that you found this podcast and this could be a day of wake up call to say, you know what? I'm gonna start doing some things differently. I'm gonna reexamine the way that I'm interacting with people of the opposite sex and be so intentional about honoring my marriage, honoring my spouse at all times and in all places. And so it's a good conversation today. But now it is time. Yay for my favorite time of the podcast, Q and A. Thank you, guys. For those who send in questions@nakedmarriagepodcast.com and we love your social media questions too. We're at Dave and Ashley Willis on Instagram and you can find us on Facebook, you know, wherever you contact us. We appreciate it. Today's question says this. My in laws have a sad marriage from the outside. They argue every time we're together. They sleep in separate rooms. They have separate bank accounts. They badmouth one another when they're not together. And my father in law always complains to us kids about his wife and how the kids are the only thing keeping him going. They need help. But who am I as a daughter in law to tell them that? Any advice on how to approach this conversation with them? First off, you're a great daughter in law just by caring and writing in and, and wanting more for them. And this does put you in a really delicate situation as the daughter in law to not want to offend, but at the same time, you know, having a unique position to speak into it. We're actually working on a book right now called the in law Dilemma that will probably be out early next year because there's so much in the in laws relationships, you know, like we can from personal experience speak to a lot of the highs and the lows of those dynamics. But having a healthy multi generational connection is part of what God desires for everybody. And you're doing your part right here. So how do you delicately speak into that, sweetie?

Well, I want to share a story with you guys. So at the time of this recording, we actually are coming off a weekend at Church of the Highlands in Birmingham, Alabama. And the first night we were there, at the very end of our sessions, we had this couple that kind of waited to speak to us and they came up to us and they had tears in their eyes and they said, can we share a story with you? And I was like, absolutely. They said, two years ago, when, you know, you and Jimmy Evans were speaking at our church, our daughter, I think it was daughter or daughter in law, I can't remember, but it was either daughter or daughter in law got us tickets to this event because she knew we were in a really rough spot. We were not treating each other right. We had complained to our children all these things that this, this question includes very similar situation. And she said, and we honestly were on the brink of divorce, and if not divorce, just living as roommates and just not having a thriving marriage. So she said, we reluctantly came, we really threw out the conference kind of, you know, we were uncomfortable, kind of like, I don't know why we're here. But she said by the end of that conference, she said, I don't, it was just nothing but God, you know, she said it just God moved in our hearts. And she said we left that place with hope now everything hadn't been fixed. But she said over the past two years and with they were both like holding back tears and barely able to say this to us. They said over the last two years of working on those things we learned at that conference and continuing to fight for our marriage. All because our daughter or daughter in law invited us to this event. She said, we literally have a whole new marriage. And she said, I mean, and they had tears coming down their cheeks. And so here's what I want to tell you. I share that story with you because all, all that couple needed was an invitation. And I think that it'd be great coming from their son as well. I don't know what your relationship is like with them. To me, from this question, it sounds like it's probably a close one in that they're being so honest, you know, I mean, it's not like they're holding back from you. So you're right there in the fold, right? So they're, they're like, see the good, the bad and the ugly. So I'm thinking you're probably closer to them. But I would talk to maybe your mother in law and just say, hey, you know, we, we listen to this naked marriage podcast and they have these awesome events called the Exo Marriage. Exo Marriage, you know, conferences and Exo Marriage date nights, depending on wherever you live. And I would love it if maybe we could, you know, together just to invite them and say, would you do that with us? Would you come with us? Because I think it'd be a great experience and not like making them like, oh, you're making them feel damaged or something. I mean, clearly the husband is vocalizing that now. I don't know if the wife knows, you know, cause I know that your father in law is very vocal. I don't know if, if the wife is or if she even realizes how, how, you know, he sees the marriage being so bad. So I think it'd be really good just to maybe have your husband invite the father in law, have you invite the wife and, and say, you know, your mother in law and just say, hey, come to this with us. You can go to exomarriage.com for more information on where we're gonna be, but that's easy because it's not like this serious conversation. But at these events, they're gonna learn about things, you know, and how to communicate better. Clearly, there's been a communication breakdown. You talked about having separate bank accounts. We talk all about how that can cause even more friction. Even though people often separate their bank accounts because they think it's gonna cause more peace financially when nearly every time, okay, nearly every time there's more divisive.

In our own family and we're not going to call them out by name or anything. No, no, it never seems to work well, like the couples that we know who keep separate bank accounts end up arguing more about money than the couples who just put it all together.

It's so true.

Because keeping it separate is just practice for divorce anyway. It's like, then everything's a scorekeeping thing. Well, I'm going to pay for this. But you paid for that. And you know, and instead of just saying it's all ours, it's like all collectively ours.

And really it's all God's.

It's all God's. Yeah. We did a whole talk at Exo, one of the Exo conferences about that. Honestly, you know, you can look up a clip on The Exo Marriage YouTube channel of, of us kind of giving just a clip from our money, talk about how all of its gods and how it should work. And we use a visual to, to, to share that and maybe even like looking for little things like that to share not just with them, but maybe to not make them feel called out. Like a family group text message thread.

That's a great idea.

Several people on it and say like, hey, this video or this podcast episode, this really helped me. And I think all of us, you know, everybody could benefit from this and then just share it and put it out there and say, let me know what you think of it. And it could be a conversation starter. And so that way you're, you know, you're putting them in a position where they can, they can benefit and they can learn. But we're praying with you and for you as you pray for them. And you know, I, you know, I hope someday we have daughters in law that care about the health of our marriage like that, you know, and I hope also that we're not like that couple that. And we won't be because.

I know, but you know what, it happens. And I feel like if there's anything, you know, I just want to add this and then we're going to have to hop off here. But the next time you hear your father in law complaining, I would try to point out something good about your mother in law.

Yeah.

Because I think people get so used, it's a habit. They get in the habit of negativity, but you can also get in the habit of encouragement and positivity. But it takes being intentional. It takes being very mindful of where your mind goes and what, what actually is coming out of your mouth. And you know, I would just point out something really good about your mother in law and be and help him see, well, there's good here. And you know, you may even want to ask him if it's in the right, you know, you gotta read the room, so to speak. But maybe ask him, say, like, well, what brought you together in the first place? Like, tell me how you met her. Because sometimes we have to be taken out of our current situation and remember, okay, what, you know, how. How did I end up in this marriage? And like, why was I drawn to this person? Because we do, you know, especially in hard times. We need to remember that.

So good. That's gold. Thank you so much for your question and thanks to everybody for listening. We appreciate you guys so much. Do us a favor, subscribe if you haven't already. Leave us a review. It helps other people discuss, discover this podcast, connect with us on social media and and thank you guys for what you do to help spread the word about this ministry. We love being on this journey with you. We'll see you next time.

Bye, guys.

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