The Case of the Doctor’s “Prescription” for an IEP or a 504 Plan

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Special Education Case File Series with Julie Weatherly. As we wait just a couple more minutes to get folks logged in, we're going to launch a really fun poll. We'd love to hear, where are you in your Julie Weatherly era? Anywhere from, this is my first time, to, at this point, I don't know what I would do without Julie. If you fall into that last category, you're probably also familiar with her little cutie pie dog, Rod, who is her assistant detective during, during our series. And we're so excited to have him joining us today. Here he's behaving himself and laying down on the floor like a good boy in Julie's office this morning. And I wish we could all— He like came with the webinar, and we could all give him a big cuddle as well.

All righty.

And it looks like actually over half of you, this is your first time hearing from Julie. I am So excited for you guys to hear from Julie today. And I also am loving seeing if my math is mathing that 27% of you who are over the moon with Julie as well. So I'm so excited to kick off this series. We've had over 900 educators register, and it looks like we have almost 300 people and climbing joining us live today, which is incredible to see. We've also had the opportunity to connect one-on-one with 40+ districts over the last few weeks who told us they were interested in virtual services when they were registering for this series. So before we turn it over to Julie, I just want to take a minute to tell you why Parallel hosts programs like these. Over the past 15 years, when I've been at state and national case conferences, regional meetups, and other educational leadership events. One message I consistently hear is how important it is to look outside of your district and find your mentors. Locate those people that you can call when you have a question, maybe even in the middle of the night, and figure out which partners you can genuinely trust. And I've seen firsthand how valuable those relationships can be. The best partnerships aren't built because someone happened to reach out when there was a contract to sign and you had a pen in your hand. They're built over time through conversations, shared knowledge, showing up when it matters, and understanding when— what someone is actually navigating in their district. And that's a big part of why we do programs like this at Parallel. We don't want to be a company you only hear from when you have a staffing need. We want to be a resource, you know, a team you can reach out to, and ultimately a partner you feel confident bringing into the conversation when you need help. At Parallel, we believe the most successful district partnerships are built on communication, and for us, that starts before there's ever a contract in place. So whether you've been in your seat for 3 months or 25 years, whether you have an immediate staffing need or simply want to understand how virtual services is working well at other districts, we genuinely love the opportunity to get to know you, learn about your district, and be a resource along the way. If you'd like to add Parallel to your network of resources, please scan the QR code here. We'll also drop a link in the chat. And find a time to connect with our team. Our hope is that when you run into a challenge, whether it's 2 years from now or tomorrow, you know where to turn. So a few housekeeping things before we get started. Throughout this session today, please put questions into the Q&A, which is at the bottom of your Zoom toolbar. We'll leave time at the end for Julie to address those questions live and as many questions as we can. Today's session is also being recorded, so we'll email that recording out to everyone who is registered. And now, without further ado, I am very excited to introduce Julie Weatherly, someone who has become one of the most trusted voices in our field. Julie has spent 40 years working in special education law, advising and representing school districts across the country on some of the most complex issues involving students with disabilities. She's one of the most sought-after speakers and trainers in special education today. She's appeared on 60 Minutes to discuss the legal requirements for IDEA, and National CASE has also recognized her with their Award for Outstanding Service. What I think special education leaders really value about Julie is that she doesn't just explain the law, She helps you understand what it actually means for the decisions that you're making today in your district. We're incredibly lucky to have her with us for this series, and with that, I will turn it over to you, Julie, for Case of the Doctor's Prescription for an IEP or 504 Plan.

Thank you so much, Lauren. Hello, everybody. Let's see, looks like we've got about 320-some-odd people here with us today. And I'll tell you, I'm actually kind of flattered by that, because this has been a heck of a school year start. You know, I say all the time, wow, I've never seen a year like this, and I've been doing this. This is actually my 40th year. I do want to make sure that everybody understands I started when I was 2. Okay, so make that very clear. But since that time I started, I've never actually seen a year as challenging as this kicking off. I am spending my time feeling like I'm putting out fires with special education directors constantly. We are being challenged on all kinds of different things. I was with a group yesterday, and I can't tell you how many times we said, I thought I'd heard everything, until, of course, the next day. So we've got a mystery to talk about today. Back in the day, I used to be a big mystery book reader. Some of you, and this dates me, but some of you may remember the Nancy Drew series and the Hardy Boys series. I was really into those, and I loved a good mystery. And so I came up with, along with the Parallel Group folks who are very creative, who, with some meetings we had together, noticed that I had this beautiful I would call him a dog, but those of you who have doodles know that they're not dogs. But I thought he would make a good detective. He's thrilled to be on this program with me, but you can't see him right now because he's actually sleeping. But he's always good to have by my side whenever I need him, right? And the first thing we thought about, the first mystery we wanted to talk about, the case of the doctor's prescription. For an IEP or a 504 plan, I know that none of you out there have this issue, but you could. So it might be good to know some of the solutions beforehand before you actually have this. Obviously, I'm being facetious as I travel around nationally across the country. This is one of the top issues that I hear about is unfortunately. I think what we are seeing is a lot of doctor prescriptions for special education and/or 504 services, and sometimes both. Okay, so our agenda in terms of how we're going to get through the solutions of this case— what we will cover today, we're going to start with just a hypothetical case, something that I came up with, a scenario that I think every local education agency representative out there will Mysteries to be solved. Some important questions related to that actual scenario. So we'll go through that. I think we've got three little sub mysteries to solve those questions. Then I'll talk about possible solutions for those mysteries. Of course, answers, and I have a couple of resources that will be shared with you that I will refer to as we're going along. But hopefully afterward, they will serve. as a good go-to for you in solving your own mysteries locally. And then we will talk about any questions that you might have, what your mysteries actually look like, and things that are on your mind. So keep track of any questions because you'll be dropping those in the chat box as we are ending our time together today. Okay, so let's talk about the case, the scenario in terms of what happened. Now, obviously, this is purely made up. I want to make sure you understand that. I don't even know a young man named Leo Vance. Never heard of one, but just came up with that name. I don't know how. It just mysteriously entered into my mind. We have little Leo, who is an energetic 3rd grader whose grades are good, but his academic performance is slightly below grade level in reading fluency. This morning, his mother has arrived at the principal's office unannounced, demanding an immediate meeting with the principal while placing a note from a prescription pad from a local pediatric neurologist on the principal's desk. Ms. Vance insists that because Leo's doctor has officially diagnosed him and prescribed services, the school, quote, better have an IEP or a 504 plan in place by the end of the week. So here's mom's evidence. Of course, this is what we have. The neurologist note reads as follows: To whom it may concern, this is to advise that I have clinically diagnosed Leo Vance with ADHD combined type, generalized anxiety, and sensory processing sensitivity. To ensure his educational success, It would be fine with me if the school would immediately develop an IEP or a 504 plan for Leo that provides 50% extended time on tests, the assistance of a personal classroom aide, and permission to leave class when overwhelmed. Hmm. So what clues do we need in order to take appropriate action? So let's talk about this now. Hopefully this resonates with you to some degree. Maybe not. If not, it will eventually, because it's becoming a real national mystery. So we have 3 sub-mysteries to solve here. Number one, what immediate legal duty, if any, does a school have when a parent brings in an outsider evaluator's recommendations? Second question, is a doctor's note sufficient to create an IEP or a 504 plan for the student? Number 3, can or should the school communicate with an outside evaluator regarding the medical diagnoses and educational recommendations? So those are 3 common questions that we are often asked and need answers to. So we're going to start in order with obviously question number 1. Again, what immediate legal duty, if any, does the school have when a parent brings in an outside evaluator's recommendations? Okay. So here are my brief answers, but I will talk about the bases for these solutions as we're moving through. Okay, and I do have some resources also to share that will be provided to you afterwards, along with the copy of the slides as well, that I hope will serve as good go-to resources. But also, I always recommend and have no problem with people using my materials in their own local training, because I think principals, counselors, teachers, those people who get these prescription had diagnoses and so forth and recommendations for IEPs and 504 plans need to understand about how to respond to that, because many times it's not something that's slapped on the principal's desk. It could be faxed to the counselor, provided to the teacher via the kiddo's book bag. You never really know, okay? But these are often being sent And what we are required somehow, some way to do is properly consider the recommendations. We do not want to ignore them. I think school districts should have good procedures in place for how do we respond? What needs to happen first? What does that principal need to do with that piece of paper? Not tell the parent to go to Walgreens up the street and get it filled. No, but you might feel that way sometimes. I know I do, especially when I see a doctor who basically says it would be fine with me if the school would develop an IEP or a 504 plan. I'm going to share with you that that's not purely hypothetical in my world. Leo Vance is hypothetical, but I had that actual scenario. And also too, I have seen prescriptions for things like 5 or 4 plans, not 504, but 5 or 4. And I can't tell you how often I have wanted to cross-examine that doctor and ask, is it a 5 plan or a 4 plan, and what's the difference, right? But I'm concerned because I don't want schools to take these lightly, because oftentimes what we find is that courts and/or due process hearing officers, or even an investigator from the Office for Civil Rights if it's a 504 situation, might say that the receipt of that recommendation, whether we agreed with it or not, whether we see any problem with Leo or not, that is a request for an evaluation. Okay. So not only do we need to consider it, we need to handle it appropriately in accordance with your local education agency's procedures. It may be that we immediately let the special education director, the 504 coordinator, know about this request so that we can follow proper procedure. Both IDEA and Section 504 contain what is called the Child Find Duty. Both of the sets of regulations refer to it very differently. 504's is a little hidden in the regulations. IDEA's is much more obvious, but both can— both require schools to conduct timely evaluations, obviously, For the purpose of locating, evaluating, and identifying students who may need special education services because of a disability, or in the case of 504, some want to call those accommodations. Just a little hint to you, my experience with the Office for Civil Rights is they do not like that word. So I prefer 504 services and supports, but for IDEA purposes, we're talking about, do we have any sufficient reason to suspect— for 504, it's reason to believe— that Leo, in our scenario, has a disability and a need for some kind of services? And this request Coming through the parents' provision of this outside evaluator's diagnoses and recommendations. Not only recommendations for a, it would be fine with me if you did an IEP or a 504 plan. This neurologist is very specific about what services need to be provided to Leo. So very, very interesting. I will just, as a side note, talk about the most recent scenario that I've seen was actually with respect to a particular employee of a school district I work with, took her own child to the doctor because there— something was going on. She wasn't feeling well or what have you. And while there, was presented by the doctor's office with a new fee schedule. Mm-hmm. And on that fee schedule was information to patients if they want a recommendation for an IEP or a 504 plan, it's an extra $150. So she took a screenshot of that and I saw it. So that's bothersome to me. And in those kind of cases, you want to say, uh-uh. We're not listening to anything Dr. Breen has to say. No, thank you. But we need to make sure we understand that it more than likely has triggered the Child Find duty to determine whether or not we have any reason to believe or reason to suspect. In addition now to this prescription pad page and what it says, that this student, Leo, has a disability and, as a result, a need for special services. And it's not knowledge, it's reason to believe or reason to suspect. So in our scenario, and in light of Leo's mom's demand and presentation to the principal of the neurologist's prescription, the school needs to Take note as to whether or not it should evaluate. That may be something in your state, and this is where states vary across the country. If this is considered a request, which it very likely would be considered, if you are in a state that requires you to do an evaluation upon request, either under IDEA and/or Section 504, you would probably need to move forward with that. Now, I always suggest some clarification. Make sure that the parent understands that that has been— that process has been started and that they have requested an evaluation by handing over that prescribed recommendation for services and And/or a 504 plan and an IEP, right? Making sure the parent understands that's where we're headed. In states that don't require an evaluation on request, then we need to decide whether we have sufficient evidence of clues that would lead us to the point of suspecting or believing that this child may have a disability. And a need for some kind of special services. All of that is wrapped up, at least in what I do. I call this referral red flags. We call them clues in our mystery here, but referral red flags. And I have for many, many years worked on a list of these. When I realized that Child Find was a huge issue, And it really came up not through a scenario like this, more through the situation where we were looking at doing RTI, response to intervention, often known as a framework called multi-tiered system of supports in our districts, and wondering and making sure that we were not telling parents, oh, so sorry, we can't evaluate until we finish This process. All of a sudden, the federal government came to town in 2011 and told people by an official memorandum that was sent out telling state directors of special education that they needed to be careful to ensure that their school districts were not saying things to parents like, oh, he's going to have to have 9 to 12 weeks of interventions before we can do an evaluation. We wouldn't want the principal to say something to Miss Vance like that, because that makes it look like we're not looking at what we're supposed to look at, and that is, do we have, outside of this evaluator's recommendations, any reasons to believe or reasons to suspect that Leo might need to be evaluated? And it's an affirmative duty. Even if Mrs. Vance did not bring that prescription, it has been construed to be an affirmative duty that we're supposed to be on the lookout for these referral red flags regardless of what information the parent brings to our attention based on the data that we have about the child. So I thought as a good resource with respect to this particular case file, I would provide you with a list that I have been working on for 15 years based on a lot of litigation where parents are bringing lawsuits saying, well, I gave them the doctor's note, I told them about the diagnoses, my concerns, the recommendations coming from the doctor, and in light of the fact that he's not doing as well as he should in school, they should have known 2 years ago when I gave them that information that my child needed to be evaluated. And we have lots and lots of those kinds of cases in my firm. I would say probably 25 to 30% of the due process requests that come into our office are child find cases like that. Look at all of these referral red flags that were waving in the wind in front of the school people, including the doctor's note that I provided, and that should have triggered an evaluation. It should at least trigger an exploration into whether or not we have reason to believe or suspect that this child may have a disability and a need for services. So when you get the checklist, you'll see all of these bulleted points out as your resource. It's based on case law, so I also have some of my favorite Child Find cases in that resource along with that to support what I'm saying here, because when I put this list together, it was based on court decisions where judges were looking to see, well, what did you know about Leo that should have or not triggered an evaluation earlier than when you did it, or Should have triggered one in the first place if you haven't done one. And so I've broken all of these things out that I've seen in court cases—not just court cases, hearing officer decisions sometimes—but there's plenty of court decisions in that area. So I had plenty to provide to you, but also what the Office for Civil Rights has said about parents bringing these diagnoses in and looking at the academic concerns. Now with Leo, he's doing pretty well. Looks like he's a third grader. He's got some fluency issues, a little bit of concerns there. But we would, for any child in this situation, look at all of these kinds of things. And the more checkmarks we have in our checklist as we are looking through all of these things, the more inclined we should become to think that we have some. sufficient, at least reason to believe or reason to suspect that we should pursue an evaluation. Okay, so you can read these for yourselves. Obviously, I'm not going to go through these. I don't need to read this to you. But one of them that's real important is on the left-hand side here, and of course, this is the checklist that you will get is exactly like this. The 5th bullet there, because we do have a lot of students who have been or are about to be in that framework that we might refer to as a problem-solving part of our multi-tiered system of supports or response to intervention framework or process, and looking at the progress monitoring data. Let's say Leo had been receiving those interventions, those scientific research-based interventions, because the teachers had already noticed he was struggling. Maybe we're at that point. The progress monitoring data can be very, very helpful to give us some signs about whether or not we ought to move forward with an evaluation alongside everything else that we have about that child, all other data and so forth. So again, hopefully this is making sense to you. We've got academic referral red flags. We have behavioral, social-emotional type referral red flags. Obviously with behavior, starting with disciplinary referrals, but we also have certain behaviors that are not violations of the student code of conduct, such as signs of depression or withdrawal, sort of those inner type behavioral problems that still impact on that student's ability to either access school or be successful in school, right? Truancy problems. I'll just mention for a second that I've had some school administrators say, well, she's not a behavior problem, she's never here. Okay, but maybe we should look into that, right? And then in both categories, academic and behavioral, comparing that student— does that student stand out in some way, either academically or behaviorally, in comparison to his or her same-age peers? Same sort of thing about the problem solving. What is our data looking like there? What if a child already has a 504 plan and we're just looking at IDEA? All those possibilities there in this checklist. Many times, particularly for 504, I do see a lot of these medical prescriptions again for the 504 plan, right? Or it would be fine with me if you would do an IEP or a 504. Many times we get this medical and health information. That's why I did the scenario the way I did it, because many, many times we get it that way. So we get these diagnoses. Many of them end in D. So it could be ADHD, ODD, OCD, PTSD, with ADHD being certainly The number one diagnosis that we have seen in, frankly, more than 30 years in my practice. Information the student is taking medication. Now, an important note, and you will see this on the checklist that I provide. So make sure to read that checklist before you use it in any form or fashion. Make sure everyone is aware that not one of these things by itself Necessarily triggers the child find duty, but like I said, the more checks you have along the way should start us thinking about whether or not this triggers the child find duty to move forward with a referral for an evaluation. Now again, in your state, if a parent's requested it, that referral red flag is sufficient. So if you are in one of those states or your practice in your LEA is that you evaluate every child on request, then maybe you don't even really need to look at this necessarily. But I still think it's a good idea. I work with really large school districts that tell me, my goodness, if we had to evaluate every child that a parent asked us to evaluate, that would be all we would be doing. And in light of the staffing shortages and so forth that we're suffering across the country, It's just not workable. So we have to have, in some states that allow it, some bases for refusing to conduct an evaluation, and that would be if you don't have sufficient reason to believe or reason to suspect that the student has a disability and a need for services. But you can read all of these, and that private evaluator suggesting the need for services, that's one Referral red flag along within the parent. So we've got two essentially in Leo's situation, and maybe after we check in with the teachers, we need to little know a little bit more about that reading problem apparently that he has. But in any event, I think you get the gist here in terms of some of those medical health information referral red flags. Then our own school. School personnel. I've seen cases where school personnel were emailing each other, oh my goodness, when is Leo going to be referred for an evaluation? How much data do we need to have to get that done? I had that case where there were folks emailing each other saying, wow, goodness, how much longer do we have to do these strategies and interventions before he can get an evaluation? Well, we don't do it for the 9 to 12 weeks or what have you. If we see it right there already in our data, we need to move forward, right? And then, of course, the parent request. And I just want to say a couple of things about the parent request. In this case, we have a mom who obviously has set down some recommendations along with diagnoses and said, I want a 504 plan and I want it now, kind of thing, or an IEP.

Right?

But sometimes parents don't necessarily have those magic words for requesting an evaluation. And so you need to, when parents bring stuff in or send it over, or they just express significant concerns, or they mention something like, well, I've heard my next-door neighbor's child has a 401, I think that's what it's called, or 405 plan, or All of a sudden, we need to make sure that that parent is not asking for an evaluation, or opposite, are they? Right? And talk that through with them. Use a lot of good communication skills through, you know, clarifying and restating and all of those kinds of things to make sure that we're all on the same page in terms of what's being requested, if anything, and what we need to do In response to that request, if anything. And I say here again, parent requests in some states or local jurisdictions may have a, you know, again, may necessitate an evaluation. You may not have the discretion there. So that's when you're doing a national webinar. It's really important to make sure to point those kinds of things out. All right, so bottom line, and you'll see this in the resource that we provide as well, um, after the checklist and even before the checklist, I think I say when there is debate, evaluate. When I have a situation where someone calls me and says, hey, I've got this little kid, 3rd grader, Leo Vance, here's the situation, you know, we're not real sure, there is a little bit of issue. Julie, do you think that we should go forward with an evaluation? Well, if you called me to ask, if you're questioning it yourself, then when there is a debate, evaluate. And I have always subscribed to that theory because ultimately I would rather do battle if we have to do battle, if we have to get in some sort of legal proceeding, whether it's a 504 hearing or an IDEA due process hearing, whatever it might be. I would rather fight the bigger battle after we have evaluated on eligibility rather than the issue as to whether or not we should evaluate in the first place. Because I'm here to tell you that in my experience, most judges, hearing officers, and so forth are going to say, well, what can it hurt for you to just go ahead and evaluate? Because they don't think about it in terms of the fact that we may have hundreds of those going on all at one time and so forth and so on. They're just looking at Whether or not we should evaluate this one student. Now, I have an important note here, because there, in most states, as I've traveled around the country, in most states there is the option for telling Ms. Vance, you know what, we don't really see any reason to do an evaluation. So we would give then Ms. Vance a notice. of our decision not to evaluate, okay, within an appropriate period of time. And some states even have a timeline for when you need to do that once a request has been made, okay. But we don't just say no, and we need to train principals and others who might be handed some sort of report coming from an outside evaluator. We need to make sure they all understand That we need to formally refuse to conduct an evaluation. But it's not because we don't listen to anything this doctor said, or we're not going to take a prescription from a doctor and just whip up an IEP or a 504 plan. When the principal shouldn't roll his eyes at Mrs. Vance when she provides this information, though. He or she may feel like it. We don't do that. But if we are going to refuse, it will be formally. And the only legal basis for a refusal to evaluate is not, we need to put him through the RTI MTSS framework first, or anything like that. The only legally defensible reason to refuse to conduct an evaluation is because the school district does not have any reason to believe or reason to suspect that the student has a disability and a need for services under IDEA or Section 504, depending on what it is the parent's asking for. In this scenario, I had the neurologist recommend both because I had dealt with that myself, right? But also wanted to cover this topic as one that's not just IDEA. It's also 504. Okay, so those are some resources for finding the solution to question number 1 in terms of how generally we would respond and what legal duty may be triggered. Question number 2: Is a doctor's note sufficient to create an IEP or a 504 plan for For lead. So my answer, without a lot of having to search for clues on this one, is absolutely not. In fact, with respect to Section 504, the Office for Civil Rights for the U.S. Department of Education that enforces Section 504, the agency basically has said many times Absolutely not. A prescription's not enough. A diagnosis is not enough. Therefore, certainly this doctor's note is not sufficient. Under IDEA, every state has very detailed rules and regulations for what we have to do before we are able to determine, first of all, whether the child has a disability, and then secondly, Whether the child needs special education services and outline what those are in an IEP. So much to do. You can't just, unfortunately, some— in some cases, grab that prescription pad, piece of paper, and say, we're done. We're delighted to do this, Ms. Vance. Just if you'll wait right here, we'll whip that up real quick. Right. So here's a suggested response, though, without being defensive, because I think we're in— I think we've been put in a really bad situation by the neurologist or whomever in this situation, and I don't think they understand this. And I've talked to some of them and they are surprised by this, and that is that when the parent such as Mrs. Vance comes in with that information and puts it on the principal's desk or hands it to the special ed director or whomever, they're expecting that we'll follow doctor's orders because that's what we do. Medical doctors know best and we follow their orders, right? They're going to expect that this is going to get done. And if they hear anything come out of anyone's mouth that says something other than, oh yes, we'll get On that right away, the parent is hearing no, no, no. All these words just no, no. So those parents then are going to find an advocate or an attorney, and there's a new national law firm on the scene I'm sure you're experienced with, and that's AI and Associates, right? Parents, all they have to do is ask AI. And AI will come to their defense. I can tell you this. Pretend you're a parent. Present this scenario. You don't even have to pretend you're a parent. AI assumes you are if you ask this kind of scenario. But in any event, here is the suggested response, and we need to be responding in a way that is not defensive. Something like, Okay, we know how urgent this is for you. We want to make sure your child's rights are protected under both IDEA and 504. The law actually forbids us from creating a formal education plan based on just this piece of paper. It requires a team, blah blah blah, something that explains to the parent in a way that makes it look like we are protecting— and we are— Leo's procedural rights. And then sit down with the parents so that they can understand what to expect. Now, this is probably better coming from the special ed director. So training your folks at the local school levels to just make appropriate recommendations immediately to central office, to the special education director, 504 coordinator, or both in Leo's case, so that we can make sure that we respond appropriate. So that one's kind of easy. It's not sufficient, but if you tell the parent that, they're not going to listen. They're going to be hearing no, no, no. So in a non-defensive manner, explain that in order to protect the child's rights, there are procedures in place under the law that we have to follow. And then question number 3, can or should the school committee I'm sorry, the school communicate with the outside evaluator regarding these medical diagnoses? I get this question a whole lot, and I think absolutely, if we can. I think this would be very helpful in obtaining additional clues about the basis for the doctor's prescription, especially as part of our or any evaluation process that we proceed with. Right? But we should be able to get— if the mom's willing to give us this diagnosis and these recommendations, then we should be able to ask for more than that. So I have some suggestions here on this slide in terms of written authorization from the parents so we can communicate. Beginning with a collaborative, non-defensive tone while we're talking with the doctor. And obtaining those clinical insights while also explaining our duty, right? Requesting objective clinical data. Some suggestions here for the kinds of things that we might request, and hopefully the doctor will want to work with us in the best interest of the child, right? Ask what school information was reviewed, and this is important because this is going to help the School folks determine what consideration we give to this outside recommendation, these diagnoses, and so forth. We consider it, but we consider it in light of certain things. Did the doctor look at any school records, interviews, or discussions with school personnel, observations of the student in the school environment? Was it only related to what information the parent provided in the 10 minutes the child was there? Unfortunately, I'm finding that to be the case often. That's why we need to look into it. Sometimes school people say to me, well, who are we to question the doctor? Like, you're the educators. So gather this information if you can. I have some other key questions and some examples of things there too with respect to this neurologist's recommendations for specific services. So those are things we should be talking about. And if your attempts to gather additional information, these clues that you need— We still need to consider the doctor's note, but we give it the weight it's due in light of all the circumstances, in light of the fact that the parent gave us nothing more than this, even though we ask. Let them refuse. Document that they refuse, because then you only consider it in light of the circumstances. And that's this without any supporting information to tell you why this doctor thinks these things. If you are regularly seeing these notes from certain outside providers, and I have a lot of these situations with certain clients of mine. Years ago, I had one client that said, Julie, I'm really having struggles with these evaluators. And I suggested coming up with a general letter of concern. And that is another resource that I'm providing to you. I asked that client if I had permission to distribute that to help folks figure out a good way to ask a doctor to take our struggles into consideration when we get one of these kinds of things. But do it for those who are the, especially the offenders in your community, if you have that. If you don't, knock on wood, you don't have this mystery to solve. But if you do, if you get it, then hopefully this will help you solve your mysteries. So tell us what mysteries you have. Lauren, over to you.

Awesome, thanks so much, Julie. We have some, um, really great questions coming in. If you guys want to add your own questions to the Q&A, it's in the toolbar at the bottom. So our first question is, what if a child was evaluated in October of 2025 and found ineligible and the parent is now requesting a new evaluation?

And that is very common. So ultimately you've got a new request, you have to take it seriously because it triggers the duty to respond appropriately. And maybe within a reasonable period of time in your state. So you need to start super sleuthing to find out if there's any additional data that you need to consider in responding to the parent's request for not really a reevaluation, because reevaluation is for students who have been identified. But is this a request we need to act upon? Certainly, we're going to have to act on it one way or the other. For situations where there are states that don't require evaluation on demand or request, then ultimately you have some discretion there to collect data to determine if there is any Reason to believe now that makes it different. The fact that you found the child ineligible, if there's not a lot of information that's any different, you still might need to look into it to ensure that it is appropriate to refuse. That we still have no reason to believe or reason to suspect that your child Is a child with a disability in need of services? With the— again, in states where it's request on demand, you could be, you know, getting demands year after year after year. And at some point, and I have seen schools go through this, they've evaluated a child 3 times and they've decided they're going to request their own due process hearing to just get this done. You know, so we've done it over and over and over. Nothing has changed. If something changes, we will do it, but we can't keep evaluating this child over and over. And there are a lot of other reasons why school district in that situation might refuse.

Okay, how about, um, for kids who have been in and out of hospitals for mental health reasons and they have a 504, but the Accommodations are not working, should that push a referral automatically?

I don't like the word automatically. I'm sitting there going, yeah, until you said automatically. Um, I know that wasn't your question, Lauren, but until that word— um, nothing's automatic in the land of special ed. So when anybody asks me a question that says always, never, automatically, I'm going to say no, not necessarily. However, if you have this long history of hospitalizations, mental illness, a lot of things that you are trying to handle through 504 accommodations, which some will refer to a 504 plan kind of as a consolation prize, I think it should be taken much more seriously than that, obviously. But if we have worked through some accommodations trying to provide a number of different things to help this student, and they're not effective, in my referral red flags checklist, you will see that's one of the referral red flags. A student who has a 504 plan, but the accommodations have not been effective. That should be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not that Sufficient reason to suspect that this child has a need for specially designed instruction may be in order, and if so, let's— when there's debate, evaluate.

Okay. I'm hearing many different opinions on the issue of students attending school districts that they do not reside in, either because their parent teaches in the district or they're paying tuition. In this event, can you clarify the breakdown of what the district of residence and the district the child is attending have as far as writing, following, and paying for special education services?

Oh boy, how long is this webinar? Wow, that one's so loaded, and I hate to be one of those kind of lawyers that's going to say it depends, but it does. Those 2 words are the usual typical response of us, all of us lawyer types that work in this field, because there's so many different scenarios, facts, and here most importantly, our state rules and regulations. Under IDEA, the duty to do all of these things that basically fall under the free appropriate public education umbrella Are triggered by residency. But now states have put into place all kinds of different duties and so forth regarding nonresident students. Most of the time when I'm working in those kinds of states or consulting with you know outside of the state Alabama, but anywhere we go to those state laws, and most of the time the state law will establish they. Full responsibility if you have open arms practices in your state. You know, either the school district has allowed them in because it's a nonresident student who meets criteria and they come in and then all of a sudden they're eligible and they're very needy. And that's when I get the questions. What do they say? Sometimes you might have criteria that students must meet in order to be eligible to attend, but then others you just have to have a parent request because you're in a state that is very supportive of parent choice. So I wish I could give a better answer than that, but bottom line is, if you have a question like that, you need to be asking your school attorney and help with nonresident policies and practices and so forth, because it can boil down even to what you actually have as part of your own board policy.

Okay, there are so many questions rolling in, and this is really exciting. Like, it's great to have so much interaction in the chat. There are one little success story, and then I'm going to pair that with a question from another One person is sharing that they met with a physician professional organization in their community and presented, and one of the biggest aha moments for the physicians that were in attendance was that anytime a kid is coming in for a service like speech or OT, they are missing out on classroom instruction. And so the idea that this school They had like a limited number of hours had never occurred to the physicians before. So that felt like a really big win to be able to present that information with the physicians in their community. And so that leads us into the question where maybe we're working on building those relationships, but we had a prescription for an IEP last year. The student ultimately did not qualify. The parent went back to the pediatrician, and then they got a new letter from that pediatrician saying, I demand an IEP for Leo.

Well, that doesn't really change anything other than, oh wow, you know, that, that's the thing that's so bothersome to me. I was with a group recently, um, it's a healthcare group that had brought me in to talk about special ed law, um, and They deal with a lot of physicians and so forth, and I started into this whole mystery, the situation, and they were like incredulous that doctors were doing this. I'm like, oh no, it is rampant across the country. I mean, I actually joke about it as I travel around the country. No matter where I am, it is an issue, and I'll say something like, I now know this isn't an issue here, and they're like, yes, it is, and they start all their. Stories, right? This is why I chose it for this this particular webinar. But that doctor has gotten into now what's called advocacy, and a doctor's demand. Now it it it bothers me because there are some courts that also subscribe to the theory that if the doctor says so, it must be so. But frankly, most of the courts with when presented with good authority, understand that there's a difference between medical needs and educational needs and so forth. But many times, just the parent taking that back to the doctor and now getting a demand, to me, doesn't make any difference unless the information has changed. The basis of that demand has changed. The doctor talked to school people, looked at education records, found out how the child was doing in school, which very often, quite Honestly, and much to my chagrin, they don't. But I will tell you that courts are onto it. And about the last 5 to 7 years, courts have looked into those questions that I put on that slide in terms of, did the doctor do his or her due diligence in making sure they had appropriate data upon which they based their recommendations? And quite honestly, many of the doctors have been a little embarrassed. The last one I read, the court pointed out that the doctor didn't even know X, Y, and Z was going on with the particular child because parents tend to share what they think is important and they don't share anything else. There was— and I'll just end with this— like in the late '80s when ADD was ADD back then, ADHD today is the diagnosis, but Attention disorder deficit disorder stirred up and used to be the big thing that caused doctors to do this. The AMA, the American Medical Association, sent out a memo to all of the medical profession telling them they needed to be very, very careful about this. I think if parent— if the doctors understood how mad it can make parents when they come to the school and the school is trying to explain the procedure And if you look at the sample letter, you guys, when you get it, take a look at that, and it just kind of nicely and respectfully explains that the parent gets anxious and upset because they are assuming that the doctor's saying this is educationally necessary.

Okay, well, I think that is our time. Thank you everybody for submitting your questions, and Thank you so much, Julie, for spending your time with us and your expertise with us. We really appreciate your insights and perspectives. Everybody, please be on the lookout for the recording and also a link to the service or the pieces that Julie was gonna share with you as a follow-up as well. That'll all be sent via email. Before we let you go, this is the type of community that we are building and have built at Parallel. We want to get to know you and what you're walking through today. So please take the opportunity to schedule some time with us so that we can hear directly from you. We can get to know who, who your dog is. Do you have a fluffy doodle like Rod? Do you like playing mahjong? Or maybe needlepointing. And then we can also get into, you know, what are you walking through from a service provider standpoint? And at times we also talk about some of these legal issues that pop up as well. So thank you all again for your time today. We can't wait to see you again October 29th. We won't be able to see you, but if you want to wear your Halloween costume On the 29th, you're more than welcome to, for the case of the disappearing service providers responding to staffing shortages. Thank you again for your time today. We'll hang out for just one more minute so that if you're looking for the link in our chat to book some time, you have that available. Thanks again and have a wonderful evening.