S3:E15 - Why 99% of Entrepreneurs Fail (Michael Gerber's System Secret)

Every great company on the planet is indeed a system. System which produces a very specific result in a very specific way for a very specific reason.

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You have to have a lot of passion for what you're doing. I was fanatical in my 20s. If you could find a way to produce a business that works without you, your life would change.

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Today is a great honor for me to interview the man who in my world doesn't really need an introduction. Inc. magazine calls him the world's number one small business guru. Michael E. Gerber is the founder and author of The E-Myth, which is a worldwide phenomenon. He's literally the guy who invented the line, don't work in your business, work on your business. And I think the impact that he's had on small business can't be understated. Every business leader that I've ever spoken to always cites The E-Myth as one of their core influences. And even to this day, I feel like Michael's heart and drive, like he has as much fire at 88 to fulfill his dream to transform the state of small business worldwide as he did 47 years ago when he started the Michael Thomas Corporation. So I feel blessed to have had the opportunity to work with him closely on a few projects, and every time that we work together, I get a deeper understanding of his work. Sometimes they're just little subtle insights, other times they're profound things that have changed the way that I think about business. So that's a big part of what I'd love to do today is explore some of those ideas. So firstly though, just like to welcome my friend and my mentor Michael E. Gerber to the call.

Thank you, David. I'm delighted to be here. Let's do something truly spectacular this hour and make a difference with the people who are listening in.

Yeah, perfect. I know, you know, many people cite you as the godfather of small business systems and a lot of business owners, they struggle with the idea of systems. They don't necessarily see themselves as a systems person. I know some business owners even say that they don't like systems. So I'm curious whether or not you see yourself as a systems person.

Understand the whole conversation about systems is an interesting conversation, but you gotta understand that I see a business as a system. Forget about the systems within the business. I see the business itself as a system. And essentially what I've been saying for 47 years is that to the degree your business isn't a system, good luck. Every great company on the planet is indeed a system. System which produces a very specific result in a very specific way for a very specific reason. That articulates who it is and what it does and why it does it the way it does it in profoundly important manner, only is therefore seen as a brand. So to the degree a business isn't a system, it will never be a brand. The degree it is a system It is a brand. By that I mean it takes on a personality all of its own. The system, when I say the system is the solution, the system, the company that is a system, is indeed a personality persona that stands out in the minds of the people who it speaks to. Who it works with, who it defines the world in a way that defines its presence in the world uniquely. That company is a person, personality. And by person, I don't mean you and me, not a human being, a person, a personality, a reality that everybody knows as such. And is inspired as such. Because of that, yes, I'm a systems guy.

I, I think oftentimes it's just the recognition that a business is a system and whether the business owner recognizes that or not doesn't change the fact that the business is still a system. So I think it's critically important that someone understands that and sees their business as a system so that they can go to work on it. I'm curious to get your thought. If a business owner doesn't see it as a system, even though it is, and they haven't consciously done that, is it still possible, do you think, to build a successful systems-driven business? Like, I'm assuming the first step is to recognize that this is a system, your business is a system.

The answer to your question as it was posed is no. If the owner, the founder doesn't see it, imagine it as a system, excuse the expression, he's screwed. Yeah, he's literally out of luck. You have to understand that. I know you understand this. I know that many of your listeners don't necessarily understand this, that small business is a tragedy. And when I say small business is a tragedy, I say that because the vast majority of businesses fail. Before they will reach their 10th anniversary, 98% of all businesses fail. Steve Jobs said only 2% of small companies ever succeed. Mr. Musk says identically the same thing. I would say more than likely it's 1% rather than 2%, because 2% is giving some percentage more value than they deserve. Among the 1% is a company like Apple. Among the 1% is a company like Mr. Musk's electric car company. Among the 1% are these companies that just stand out in such a stunningly original way that everybody sees them. Stunningly original products. A company is a product. A system is a product. The degree one doesn't understand that the creation of a company is the creation of a product, you're lost. Once you do understand that, Once you do understand that a company is a product, then you have to understand that a product is a system. It's a product, isn't a system. What happens, David? It falls apart. Imagine selling a product that isn't a system. Imagine creating a product that isn't a system. This is how it works. This is what it does. This is why it does it, etc., etc., etc., etc. Can you imagine creating a product that doesn't work systemically? Such a stupid idea.

Yeah, I think a lot of business owners, and a big part of it is your work that has built the case for why to systemize. I don't think I've ever had a discussion with a business owner where we haven't agreed that business systems aren't important, it's oftentimes they have a picture in their head of what they think it takes to build a systems business. And one thing that was a huge breakthrough when we did our first project together is I realized you don't document the systems. For some reason, business owners in their head think, well, if I'm going to build a systems-driven business and it's all about process and my business is one big system, I'm going to have to do all this documentation. And I'd love to hear your take on whether or not you personally enjoy documenting process and if you even see that as part of your role, even though you are the systems guy.

I don't do the work. I strategize the work to be done. I design the brand, the strategy, the end result that we're intending to produce. And I work with those who are going to create the systems to do that. So it's no, not that way, this way. No, not that way, this way. Those words, these words. No, not that. You follow me? Yes. So I'm the leader. I'm not the, I'm not the technician. And I'm the leader of the designer and the creator of the Imagineer, as Walt Disney would say, which is what the entrepreneur indeed must become. If anything's going to be led forward. So as the leader, I'm going to be designing, creating, thinking, sissing, demanding, requiring, slapping everybody about the head and shoulders, doing all the stuff that a leader needs to do. No, that's not it. No, that's not it. That's perfect. That's perfect. Where did that come from? Now do that over here. Now do that over here. That's perfect. No, that's stupid. That's stupid. Let's get back to where we You follow me?

Yeah.

Leadership words. Leadership. It's leadership is critical to the creation of whatever we're going to create. But understand that every single individual who's a part of anything I've created is a systems person.

Yes. Yeah.

So if they're not a systems person, they don't work here.

Yeah, I think that's probably one of the key things because a lot of business owners haven't thought about that when recruiting team members. They just got whatever warm body they could and put them into a place. Now, if we all agree that systems-driven businesses deliver better outcomes for clients, staff, the business owner, the bottom line, if we all agree that, then of course recruiting systems-driven people, it's just going to make that whole process infinitely easier. I think where a lot of business owners seem to get stuck is they don't have the picture in their head like you've just explained. It's the job of the leader to have the vision and then to tell, oh, this is what my vision looks like, you do this, you do that. Whereas a lot of business owners, they don't have the vision for what a systems-driven business looks like.

I don't know if that's because they have been hold what a system is accurately. I tell someone what a system is by saying, can you imagine creating a movie without a script? You imagine creating an orchestra without notes? Can you ever imagine doing anything without a system that lives at the very heart of it? The orchestration is a composite of systems to have a musical impact upon the audience. Those systems, that system is a creation, is in fact created by one who understands the not only importance of a system, but the absolute necessity of a system. Otherwise, you don't have anything. Imagine creating a movie and saying, okay, everybody talk. I mean, can you imagine that?

Yeah, chaos.

Even saying it is just Dumb and stupid.

Yeah.

You understand that many business owners do just that? Everybody sell, everybody work.

Yeah.

Why do you think everybody fails?

I think the other challenge, I'd love your thoughts because you talk a lot about it. McDonald's is the most successful small business and over the years they're a great poster child for systemization. What often happens for the business owner is they see where McDonald's is today, and— but they've been on this journey for 60, 70 years, and they're looking at the result, and then they're trying to leapfrog to get there. So it's going back in time and understanding, getting the ball in motion and building some of the right foundations. What are your thoughts on where does all of this actually start? I think it's great to see the end picture, but it's That's the trouble all business owners have. They can make pictures in their head, but it's, they always struggle with going from where we are right now to the picture in their head. How do we get there?

I've always taught going there from where we are right now. Essentially, I say every small business, a startup.

Yeah.

Every small business, a franchise. So I tell the story of Ray Kroc. Ray Kroc was 52 years old. When he started McDonald's. Ray Kroc didn't create McDonald's, the McDonald brothers did. Ray Kroc was a multi-mixer malted milk machine peddler. He never graduated from high school. He was an uneducated salesman. And he wondered how come the McDonald brothers were buying so many of his malted milk machines. So he drove to San Bernardino to find out. And he parked outside of McDonald's to watch the crowd of customers going up to get their bag, to get their bag, to get their bag. He'd never seen anything like it. So when traffic slowed down, he went inside to find out what the hell these guys are doing. And that's what he essentially asked them. What the hell are you guys doing? Never seen anything like it. They said, what we're doing is manufacturing a product. What we're doing is what Henry Ford did when he invented the Ford Motor Company. Own the Ford Motor Company inside of McDonald's. Turnkey. You have an exact way of producing the product, the hamburgers, the french fries, the milkshakes. We practice it and practice it and practice it to the point where it works, it works, it works in the hands of minimum wage kids.

Not a clue.

Until we have heard them and trained them to utilize the system. That's what's so magical about what we do at McDonald's. And Ray Kroc said, have you ever thought to franchise this? And the McDonald brothers said, yeah, we did, but it didn't work. Ray Kroc was astonished that it didn't work. And so they told him they loved simply being in the one store. And Ray Kroc said, what if I franchise it? Would you give me the rights to franchise it? And they said, let us think about it. They contacted Ray and said, we thought we would. And they came to agreement about how they would do that. Ray Kroc went back to Des Plaines, Illinois with the franchise rights to McDonald's. And what he did from day one is what was so crucial about the success of McDonald's, of what Ray Kroc did. Ray Kroc didn't go to work in the store, not once. Ray Kroc opened up the corporate office of McDonald's down the street, would go visit the store in which other people worked to go to work on the store to perfect the store, get the point where it worked perfectly before he ever opened his second door. And he opened his second door to replicate perfectly the first door. And then the third, and then the fourth. Perfected to perfected to perfected before he threw it. And there resides the secret to McDonald's. And there resides the secret to every single small business owner on the planet. Because if every single small business owner on the planet, David, were to do identically the same thing Ray Kroc did, we said, well, one of them could be as successful as Ray Kroc was. But hear me, Even franchisors don't. The average franchise company sells fewer than 20 franchises. Fewer than 20 franchises. Ray Kroc has 40,000 franchises. Think of the gap.

Why?

Because the average franchisor doesn't do what Ray Kroc did. That's why I say every small business is a franchise. And if every small business owner, every startup, the million startups created this year in the United States, if every single one of them would start up in identically the same way that Ray Kroc did, we would transform the state of entrepreneurship worldwide and transform the state of economic development worldwide because we would have transformed the state of small business development worldwide. And in the process, something absolutely beyond belief would occur. That's what moves me. That's what inspires me. That's what is my answer to everyone. It's, Gerber, you're 88 freaking years old. Where do you get the energy? And I get the energy from the inspiration that comes to me every time I think about that.

Yeah, you mentioned a line, I even mentioned it right at the start, work on it rather than in it. And we talk about how Ray Kroc grew McDonald's. There's that transition. Obviously the McDonald's brothers worked in it to figure out what works and to start to cobble together the machine. And then Ray Kroc was able to come along and then go, the machine's already working here, so I can go straight to working on it. So that interplay—

it's not actually true. The McDonald brothers worked on it even though they were in the store. The McDonald brothers worked on it constantly.

Yeah.

They took their people out in a parking lot. They drew the picture. This is how it works. This is how it— they worked on it constantly. So you might say their corporate office was inside the store. Yeah. And they worked on it. They didn't sell hamburgers. They didn't make fries. They didn't do the technical work of the business. They did the management and leadership work that was absolutely crucial. To orchestrate the process through which McDonald's did what it did.

Your thinking on that, because I know there's some subtleties in there that most miss with the working in versus on, and they get confused. And how, where does that play happen? What are your thoughts on, should it, does the business owner at times need to go into working in it, or should it all be working on it, or is it a combination, or does it depend on where the business is up to in its growth cycle?

Perfectly. Ideally.

Yeah, let's say ideally, but the reality too, because you see the reality.

Forget about the reality. Forget about the reality. What we're here to do is to create a reality. We're not here to be absorbed in what the reality appears to be. We're here to create a reality unlike the reality that exists today. And I'm saying the owner, the founders of a company should spend all of their time working on it, not in it. And they should hire the people to do the work in it.

Yeah.

So when you start up, when you start up, you're not starting up as a solopreneur, which is a stupid expression in any case, because there is no such thing as a solopreneur. You understand? Entrepreneurs aren't solo. Entrepreneurs are beyond solo. So I'm saying that the ideal way to start a company is to hire people to do the work that you have designed from the outset for them to do. You start out by designing the system first, and then you recruit people to use that system, and then you work on it while they're using it to improve upon it. To the point where it really begins to work like crazy. And as that happens, you perfect your franchise prototype. And as you perfect your franchise, you understand the owner is not doing it. The owner is not doing it. Don't— the owner is working on it to get it to work the possible way. By how? By measuring how well it works. Orchestration, innovation, orchestration, quantification, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the language that I use in my books. The owner shouldn't be doing it, doing it, doing it. Yeah.

What happens? What would your advice be for the business owner who has a business that's already a going concern and running, and they've now got this vision of what you're talking about and going to work on this prototype. But now they've got all of this legacy material and legacy ways of doing things. It can be very hard to start. And you always talk about, Dave, you've got to start with a blank piece of paper and a beginner's mind. I don't know if you can speak to that and how that plays out in the real world for someone who goes, yeah, Gurba, that's fine, but I've got a business and it's already going. And how do I try and retrofit what you're talking about into my organization?

Pretty simply. I have an expression I call TwoCo, capital T-W-O, capital C-O. TwoCo comprises two companies, OldCo and NewCo. NewCo is the company you're going to create. Old Co is the company you're stuck with. Old Co is the company you've got that's doing it. The mistake everybody makes is they hire a coach to help them fix Old Co. That is the worst possible decision a small business owner could make. You're not here to fix Old Co. Understand, Old Co needs to sustain itself, but you're not there to grow Old Co. Design, build, launch, and grow new co. So you've got to work on new co to design, build, launch, and grow the absolutely quintessential prototype, the McDonald's of. At the same time, you've got to sustain the cash flow of old co. And you simply do only what is necessary to make that work. Only what is necessary to make that work. Lead generation, lead conversion, client fulfillment. The three-legged stool every company depends upon. So you go to work on old code to get it to work. Consistently, but not to grow it.

Yep.

Lead generation, lead conversion, client fulfillment. There's 3 systems that are crucial while you're working on new co, but they're 2 separate entities. You don't get your current people to do new co and you don't do your new co to do old co. They're completely separate. There's a wall between them. But this is very critical because it's very difficult to do because it has to exist in your mind to do it. There has to be a wall in your mind between old co and new co. And to establish that wall requires some serious mentoring. To make certain that the client, that's a small business owner, has come to the point where they truly understand and appreciate the difference between these two. Once that occurs, once that client, once that small business owner has come to the point where they truly understand what who co is, something truly magical can happen. And something magical does occur, does happen.

The quickest way to get old co to that self-sustaining point, I see like a lot of small business just by taking the best bits of what's already working and making that repeatable. And then just going, okay, as long as we can remove that key person dependency, because the goal obviously is to create enough space for the business owner to start working on NewCo. And that has to do with, like you said, don't worry about reinventing or anything, just get it to self-sustaining to create that space. I don't know if there are any other tips or like, that's what probably stands out for me is to first just get it repeatable so you can step away. And then that creates the space to work on NewCo.

You're making it too difficult and you're making it too difficult because you're identifying with the owner. Yeah. In short, what you're sharing with me is not his problem. You're sharing with me your problem. What you're sharing with me is yes, but Michael, yes, but Michael, yes, but Michael. Yes, but is the constant. Diameter of my communication with every small business owner I've ever worked with. Yes, but Mike, you don't understand. Yes, but Mike, you don't understand. Yes, but Michael, you don't understand. And of course I do understand. The problem is he doesn't understand. So what you need to do when I say a blank piece of paper and beginner's mind is stop. And every time that comes up in your mind, yes, but Michael, Every time that occurs and it comes up and it's come up here in a conversation. Yes, but Michael, it comes up with every small business owner on the planet. Every time that comes up and say, shut up, shut up. Just follow me with this. Yes. Let's take it step by step by step. It's step by step by step. That is the crucial process. To break through the difficulty in understanding and appreciating what I'm really sharing with you here. I understand your mind can say, yeah, I get that, I get that, but Michael, you— it still comes back, yes, but— yeah, forget about yes, but It's just, now let's do this, now let's do this, now let's do this, because we're creating an idea, but that creation of that idea doesn't solve the problem. The only way to solve the problem is to start doing it.

Yep.

Is to start doing it step by step by step, not trying to jump ahead of it. So that you can understand it before you do it. Because you will never appreciate this before you do it. You will only appreciate this as you do it. And as you do it and the conflicts arise, then we deal with them as they arise, but not as they arise in your imagination.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

So the only way in the world to get this done is to do it. Literally, the only way to get this done is to do it. And that's the leap a small business owner's got to take. He's got to let go of his lack of trust. Understand that I've been doing this for almost half a century. He's got to let go of his lack of trust and say, Gerber, you know better than I do. Come in. Let's just do it. Holy shit. Let's just do it. I'm scared to death, but let's just do it. Because I gotta do this. I've gotta get there. I'm determined to get there, Michael. He's gotta say, help me. And then we sign the paper and then we begin it. Step 1, step 2, step— like that. You can't get to step 2 until you've done step 1. You can't get to step 4 until you've done step 3. So you got to understand, you can't get there until we've done what's needed to move it forward. Otherwise you won't understand it. Sometimes an intelligent process.

Yeah, sometimes a great way— and you tell the McDonald's story as a great example for someone to be able to go, oh yes, I can see how this plays out in the real world. Do you have any other examples that come to mind? You've had literally worked with thousands of business owners over the years, so you would've seen this play out in a lot of different—

I've got a thousand stories and none of them make any difference. Yeah. Because if McDonald's story doesn't do it, none of them will.

Yeah.

The only reason you ask for another story is because you haven't Totally bought McDonald's story. More so, tell me something closer to me.

Yes, that, I think that's what it is. I've told the McDonald's story and I see business owners, sometimes they struggle to connect because of we're looking much further down this exponential curve and we're seeing after all of that work and it just feels like it's so far away. Sometimes business owners, they, they need, it's hard for them and maybe it's exactly what you were saying. Maybe they just need to take the leap and say, yep, I believe I'm all in on this. And I always look for what are the ways to get someone to make that step. Sometimes it can get wrapped up in I'm having a baby or my partner's died or something significant happens to go, I'm gonna make this change. But that's not always there. So sometimes I try and go, what is it that you can do without those influences to get someone to believe and go all in?

You do exactly what I've just done with you.

Yeah.

Say you can continue to think about it and nothing's gonna change. Everything's going to get worse. Hear me. I didn't make this story up. This story is true. I didn't make the story up about 98% of all small businesses go out of business. I didn't make that up. It's true. The only question is, why do they go out of business? And I've already told you why they go out of business. They haven't a fucking clue what they're doing. Paper me. You have no clue what they're doing. None. And until you're ready to accept that, you haven't a clue how to build a successful business, and that's why you're not doing it. The only question left is, how do I build a successful business? And I've given you the perfect example of it. Buddy Kropf is 52 years of age. He didn't graduate from high school, which means he never went to college. He was a peddler of malted milk machines. He didn't even invent McDonald's. The McDonald brothers did. Told the story over and over again. If you don't get that story, if you don't get the absolute profound impact of that story, then you're smoking dope. You're never gonna get it. Ever. I can tell you story number 2, story number 3, story number 4, it will make any damn bit of difference to you. Because none of them are as good as McDonald's. 40,000 stores. Did you get that? Do that. I just told you how. Now you get to do that. Hear me? Now you get to do that. How do I do that? That's what I'll teach you. A great client of mine said, a great client of mine said, Steve Jobs inspired me to think different. Michael Gerber taught me how. That's what we're here to do. Ray Kroc inspired me to think different. Michael Gerber taught me how. That's the secret to the whole damn thing, and that's what you have to say. Teach me, Michael.

The key part, having gone through your Dreaming Room, which I attended in Carlsbad, California, and it comes back to almost something that I said right at the introduction of our interview here, is the fire which you had, and then you uncovered that, and you said It's because you keep going back to the dream and the impact and what it is that you're here to do. And that, because growing a business will have different challenges, and the dream is what just keeps pulling you through. I'd love to get your thoughts on some people. Yes, they have these big dreams of grandeur and taking over the world, and there's other people who don't dream as big and they think my business isn't here to do that or have that level of impact, or I just run a dry cleaning business. I'd love your insight there. I suppose McDonald's just runs a hamburger shop, but I don't know if you've got any extra insight there.

Of course I do. Without a dream, you're screwed. The lack of a dream in a human being is the lack of the spiritual desire one has to create. Great companies are born out of great creations. A great creation is what Steve Jobs talked about when he said— what did he say? Steve Jobs inspired me to think different. Thank you. It's a dream. And think different. That's a brand. But think different. That's a stunning reality, unlike any reality they've ever seen. So I'm gonna build a hamburger stand unlike any hamburger stand on the planet. I'm gonna build a cleaners unlike any other cleaners on the planet. I'm gonna build a software company unlike any software company on the planet. You build a nursery unlike any nursery on the planet. Become the most stunning chiropractic service on the planet. Why? Because it's so exciting to even imagine doing that. Can you imagine a chiropractor who doesn't have a dream? Can you imagine a chiropractor who'll bend over? Can you imagine a chiropractor who doesn't have a dream? Can you imagine a dentist who doesn't have a dream? Open up, open up, open up. Can you imagine anybody doing anything without a dream? Can you imagine getting married without a dream? Can you imagine having children without a dream? Can you imagine a human being living without a dream? How dull that person would be, how boring that person would be, how deadly that person would be. How disinterested that person would be. Unimaginative that person would be. Tell me that you don't have a dream, it's just an ordinary business. Shut the doors, darling. I mean, just shut it down. It simply becomes making a living with desperation.

I feel, and that's what I love most about the Dreaming Room, was understanding that's really where it all starts. And it starts from that acorn and grows into a beautiful tree, and there's things that happen along the way. And working closely with you, you're the ultimate dreamer, and you can create pictures in your mind and then bring it into reality. And one of the The key pieces to that and where I think some people may have either got confused or misinterpreted the systems message is how that fits in. And even though you're a dreamer and a great systems thinker, you're not doing the documentation. You're not— you're surrounding yourself with great systems people because you know how critical it is to build that so that you can work on your best work and where you add the most unique value. And I think for me, that was a big breakthrough, having worked closely with you on a couple of projects. I thought, Michael Gerber must be a whiz at documenting these processes. He must be a whiz at how he organizes things. And I think a lot of business owners think of that, and they think, if I'm not a systems— if I don't enjoy documenting process, I can't own a systems-driven business and, oh, this mustn't be for me, or I tried to do it and it doesn't work because I tried to put it into place, but they didn't know how to roll it out. That wasn't their thing, and they weren't focusing on what they should focus on. I think there's a huge gap there with a lot of the way that people have interpreted your work, and I only found it by working closely with you.

Well, I've already said it. There's the leader, the manager, the technician. Founder, the entrepreneur is the leader. The manager is someone he brings in, she brings in to the organization to manage the system, the process, as it goes through its generation to produce the results it is intended to produce. The technician is the one who does the work. So the leader is the one who leads, the one who manages, is the one who manages, and the one who is the technician is the one who does the work. So it's crucial that you understand what those three roles are and how they play themselves out. The entrepreneur, the leader, is the creator. Do you understand when I say the creator? I don't mean the creator of the system, the creator of the enterprise and the enterprise. Is comprised of ways of doing what it is intended to do to produce the most profoundly positive result it was intended to produce. Ergo, to ultimately become the brand that I spoke about earlier. What's the brand?

Apple.

What's the brand? McDonald's. What's the brand? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You follow me?

Yes. Yeah.

So your job as the founder and CEO, leader of your company, isn't to do the work of creating those systems. Your job is to lead it to become the ultimate overriding system your company is to become the brand of. Systemology. Define what does systemology mean? What is the definition of systemology? How do you define it? What does the word mean?

That was the first task when we went through the Dreaming Room together in Carlsbad and the birth of the dream of Systemology began. I remember, and we— I've worked with you as I went through and created the book and gave me different feedback as we went, and that was one of the first little tasks you gave me. And it was like the definition: Systemology is a noun, and it's the systematic study of organizational effectiveness through observation and experiment.

So that's a way of defining it. So I would suggest, I would recommend to you that you go back and you redefine it. I would suggest just as a practice, you go back and you redefine it. And in that process, you redefine it with the word creativity, word create. Systemology isn't just the noun of It's the act of is the creation of. So I'd like you to redefine Systemology as the act of the creation of, which gets deeper into the heart of entrepreneurship rather than a passive reality. Take that as something to do and then get back to me this week and give me the redefinition of it. Yes, because at the heart of that redefinition is the story.

I know depending on when someone is listening to this interview right now, I've asked you to come and lead a special Dreaming Room for my group and people in my world where we explore this, and I'd love to work on that live with other participants as we go through the online version of the Dreaming Room, just like I did in Carlsbad, California, which birthed the idea of Systemology, and watch me evolve it and take it to the next level as I work closely with Michael. And as people—

I'd love to.

I think that would be a great experience. Again, depending on when someone's watching this, they can just head to systemology www.michaelmckenna.com/dreaming, and they'll have the opportunity to join in on that particular program. But you can already see the way that Michael leads and guides, and I know if someone wants to have a similar experience, this program would most definitely be for them. In the tail end, as we look back and think about—

let me say one thing about what you just said. The engagement that we had in our dreaming room together, the engagement that I have with participants in a dream room I call the hot seat. And so you've been sitting in the hot seat right here in this interview because I've been challenging you to go beyond how you think about things. As I challenge you to go on about beyond how you think about things, something is stimulated within you that doesn't exist on your own, that something that's stimulated within you raises something that is immensely creative, creates. It's not like you create, it creates. Once that happens, when it creates, there's this stunning realization that the world and the act of being in the world is so much different than the way we're accustomed to it being. And that's why the Dreaming Room is so exciting. That's why amazing things happen in the Dreaming Room.

Yes.

Because suddenly the participants come face to face with something they've never seen or done before. And that's why this would be a lovely thing to do with your folks, to truly put everybody in a hot seat simultaneously or singularly. And then the process to rebirth your company, you, the people you bring into it in ways that Nupco is being created right before our very eyes.

The impact and inspiration that you've had in Systemology is very clear. Your fingerprints are all over the book and through the work and the inspiration. You wrote the foreword, and I tell the tremendous story about how we got to know each other, and that was a magical carpet ride in itself.

That—

I'd love your insight on where you see my work sit and the importance of Systemology. We've talked about it in the past, but it's— yeah, I think again, someone coming on this journey and watching will be profoundly impactful for them.

Absolutely. And you understand that when we went through the Dreaming together, the idea of Systemology was a very profound idea. I believe there's work to be done on your appreciation of it. When I say that, understand what I mean by that, David. Most often when one begins a process, they rarely fully appreciate the profundity of it. It's for you to appreciate the profundity of it in the way I'm speaking to you now about it. You would speak about it differently when you take it to market. And when you bring it to market differently, it's that differently that I'm speaking to now. Something's going to happen in the Dream Room that we do together. I swear it always happens, just like your company was formed out of the Dream Room. I'm saying NewCo, your NewCo, your book, your company, your systems, your thought process is going to be created anew again, and it's going to have a stunning impact. Both on you and on the people who join us in that Dreaming Room. Perfect.

So people can find out more, head over to systemology.com/dreaming, and Michael and I will look forward to seeing you in the Dreaming Room.

Got it. Hear me, I'm 88, so you better hurry up.

Thank you as always, Michael. I mean, your insights, you're always so generous and thoughtful. So yeah, I want to thank you for your time today also.

Oh, my delight. Thanks, David. See you all later in the dream room.

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