S4:E5 How Introverts Can Outsell Anyone with Matthew Pollard

As we are becoming less and less connected and more and more robotic, we need to find ways to insert connection. What we find is connecting with people, the very first thing, and as an introvert you might hate this, is to send them an audio message. On an iPhone and an Android, you can send somebody a 60-second audio message, and I have found it is to date the best way to get somebody that's ghosted you to come talk to you again. Welcome to the System Hub Podcast. Hola. Konnichiwa. Guten Tag. Where we interview world-class experts. You have to have a lot of passion for what you're doing. I was fanatical in If you could find a way to produce a business that works without you, your life would change like that. Extracting, organizing, and optimizing their best systems and processes for rapid business growth. Now let's get into the show.

For those who don't know, Matthew Pollard, famous for his Introverts Edge, really incredible speaker, someone who, you know, I've gotten to know over time. We spent a bit of time together, but I love your content around sales, around networking. Dave, of course, of Systemology fame, the, the systems man. So really, really cool to have you guys on and be talking all things sales, networking, marketing.

Yeah, great to be here. Great to be doing it in Melbourne too, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Really, really cool. So mate, I'd love you to define what an introvert is because, you know, I don't know, is David an introvert, an extrovert, a pervert?

I don't know. Well, you know, I'll let you guys sort out the last one. Can you tell us? It was interesting because we were chatting about this, and a lot of people don't know the answer. And I think it's because a lot of researchers have really made it way too confusing. And I— to me, the true definition is, is really just where you draw your energy from. Like, I think— I mean, we all had a lunch before, we socialized, you know, we all talked about whether or not, you know, we enjoy speaking and things. And I know I love speaking, but that doesn't make me an extrovert. I'm tired afterwards. I'm less tired now because I do a lot of planning and preparation. I love networking, I love selling. It used to take a lot more energy than it does today because I'm much better at it and I've got more systems and processes that I follow. But the true definition of introversion in my mind is if you are tired after doing a social activity like networking or speaking from stage, then you're probably an introvert. If you're charged up and you find being by yourself takes energy from you, then you're probably an extrovert. And there's a lot of people that now say, oh, you know, I'm an ambivert. And that sometimes is true. It's— I find it's an ambivert. Ambivert's where you kind of draw energy from both and you need a good balance of both. Otherwise you struggle. But I think that a lot of people— I spoke at the AISP Leadership Summit and it's an interesting event. So think about you're probably the head of sales from every like corporation, big tech company, big finance company you can imagine. And I did that like I did that mainstage event and then later I did a leadership event where just the best and brightest came. And I thought it'd be fun just to ask, you know, are you an introvert or an extrovert? But I decided not to put like a, like a, you know, introvert extrovert tick box, but actually gave it as an open field. And the number of people that responded with something like, oh, I was introverted, but don't worry, I'm not anymore. Like it was a disease they had to recover from was ridiculous. And I think that's the— I think that that's one of the things that's been really interesting that I've seen is that people think that the job is to aspire to become an extrovert. And you can't change who you are. Like, I'm forever going to be an introvert, and I'm not ashamed of that because for me I see it as an edge. Like, some might say extroverts aren't the best listeners, they're not the most empathetic. A lot of people, they will say those are skills that they can learn, where people go, oh, poor Johnny, he's an introvert, he can't sell, he can't network, he can't lead. It's just not true. These— everything's a learnable skill. It's whether or not we can believe that we can and then put actual effort in. Really, you know, the big key is, is systems and processes for introverts.

I've got this theory and it just popped up in my head as you said, well, you're an introvert. I feel like I'm an introvert. I'm curious to know, do you see yourself as an introvert, Al?

100%. Yeah.

So if we're all three and we're all very systems-driven, like, I mean, your work is all about process. That's what I do. And you're one of the few marketers I know that approach marketing in a systematic way rather than random acts of marketing. So I wonder what that linkage between being an introvert and maybe working your brain.

And there's definitely a link. And the reason for it is if you think about Well, let's think about the things we find uncomfortable first, because that's the easiest way. Like, if we're winging things, a lot of times we will then, we will go away and we'll ruminate about that silly thing that we said. Maybe we were managing that staff member, we said the wrong thing, or we, you know, in the heat of the moment, because we have no systems, we say something we wish we didn't. Or we're in a networking room, we say, somebody makes a joke and we're like, we don't respond the right way. And so what I find is that that rumination brain that we have If you think about the conversations we're having at lunch, you were like, oh, I love the fact that you spun that positive.

Yes.

Rumination is a negative characteristic that introverts have, but continuous improvement is a positive characteristic that can be— that can use the same muscle. Yeah. So what I find is when I'm selling or when I'm networking, firstly, I'm always following a— and there's not— I'm not saying use my sales process. It doesn't matter which sales process you pick, but pick a systematic process and then use that same part of your brain that would often beat yourself up about the thing that you said that was wrong.

Yeah.

Instead, forgive yourself for the fact that you said something wrong and say, what one continuous improvement for opportunity do I have? Yeah. And so what I find that introverts that get it will say, okay, what's my one optimization moment here? And if they apply that to networking, to sales, it works incredibly well. But the same thing works. Like I remember back in my telecommunications days, I'd be sitting there with— back in the days we'd have to have a SIM card and we'd have to put the SIM number in and then we'd have to do this thing. And I'd have this tray system and I'd be always looking for how to optimize that tray system because otherwise I would have to have a difficult conversation, which as an introvert we try to avoid, about why have we— why are things getting lost or why are things not progressing? So I think introverts by nature are looking for systematic ways to control their life or have their life in order. Extroverts tend not to be looking for those sorts of things, though benefit just as much, if not more so, by having systems around what they do.

So the other thing is, is it true to say that like for an introvert, I feel that way, like if I'm speaking on stage or I'm at a networking event or something like that, it's like, okay, I'm on, it's performance time, right? It's not like, you know, I'm just being myself with like I am with Dave. It's like it's performance version of Alan, right?

You know, there's a couple of answers for that. So I find that the saddest thing is to ask an extrovert, like if you go up to them after they've been on stage and say, I loved exactly what you did. Can you do that exactly 10 more times to our other departments? Their answer is usually going to be no because they wing things too much. Where if I asked you to do it or me to do it exactly the same way, well, yes is usually the answer. So what I do, and I feel that a lot of times I'm very specific about what I say, so whenever I'm speaking at a live event, I want to meet with people beforehand. I want to interview and understand not just how my content applies and do my research, and not just the theme of the event, but I also want to understand what the, you know, what the feelings are in the room. Like, are they— have they not hit their targets? Because sometimes you find they've all hit their targets in America and they're really happy, and Europe's really depressed, and you've got to learn how to balance that. Sometimes you find out they've gone through a whole bunch of acquisitions. And even though I talk about storytelling, you can change people's psychology through story, and I can build all of that into the narrative. So when I go up to perform, I mean, a lot of ways, to use your point, perform for me is about providing a really well-structured not script, but very rhythmic process where I feel that the biggest thing that I channel when I'm on stage is empathy. And I think introverts have empathy in spades. So when I'm on stage, I'm really looking for people to respond. I'm more interactive. I bring people up on stage and I do live transformations just because I want people to see that they can do it. I feel like extroverts, they want to talk at people. So funnily enough, I actually think when we use the word performance, We're actually consulting and advising in a lot of ways. Good speakers are consulting and advising. On my Introvert's Edge podcast, Jay Papasan talked about the number of hours that he practices before he actually ever will deliver a speech. I actually think extroverts are performing. We in a lot of ways are consulting and advising based on experience. We feel when we get off stage that we performed. And I think that a lot of cases that's our rumination brain saying, really questioning whether we showed up authentically. And from everything that I've seen you do from stage, you're very focused on showing up authentically. And I think there's this balance of, but I did the same thing 10 times before. Is that really showing up authentic? But I think that you and I are very focused and, you know, Dave, I've not seen you speak, but I'm assuming it's the same. It's how can I present the best version of myself in an authentic way?

It was funny hearing you say this idea of presenting because, I mean, I feel like the Alan that I get sitting down having lunch, I don't see that much difference to the Alan presenting on stage. And I feel like the same way. Like, I love that authenticity of when someone— like, I get it too when someone comes up and, oh, the Dave that I listen to in the audiobook is the same Dave that I've seen present from stage.

And it's not so much that it's a different Alan. It's more like I'm on, right? Whereas if it's you and me at a coffee shop, we're just shooting the shit, talking, whatever. And yeah, I don't feel like I'm on. I feel like, yeah, yeah, we're just friend chatting or whatever, right? Whereas on stage, on a podcast, on whatever, I'm like, all right, I'm on, okay, it's showtime.

So I don't feel like we're on. I'm not sure about your experience here, but I don't feel like I'm on because we had lunch beforehand and it just felt like a continuation. But I, I do see what you mean. I— what I found is I used to speak for an hour and it used to take me about a day to recover, and now I speak for sometimes a full half day, sometimes— and I will say a day is still exhausting for me. If I have to do a full day training, I'm usually popping a few ibuprofen at lunchtime. But if I'm speaking for half a day or a couple of one hours, I'm usually pretty good, and it takes me about 30 minutes to recover. So your experience of 'am I on?' I think it's more of a— like, you're a big gym person. I think that because I'm at the gym from a speaking perspective a little bit more than you. I feel a little bit less on and a little bit more in my comfort zone. But then I will say, just like going back to the gym when I haven't spoken for a couple of months or, you know, a 4-week period, then I'm back on stage. COVID was a really interesting experience for me. I, when I, I did so many virtual presentations and I felt like I, you know, I really nailed and honed that in. My first live experience, I was wiped when I got back. I was so tired. And I had to give myself permission. Like, usually I'll do 8— like, if I'm on a flight for 8 hours, I'll do 8 hours worth of emails. I could barely pay attention to the TV, or like, on the plane. So I think it is a muscle. And I think that for a lot of people, like, when you think about dating, there's a lot of people that are very introverted that go and see— and I don't like pickup artistry as a concept, but they talk about like approaching women and just being comfortable walking up to women. And it was painful for them to do it, and then it became comfortable.

Yeah.

And so I now walk on stage and I don't feel like I'm switching myself on.

Yeah. Okay.

But I feel that that's only true because I'm doing it at the moment. Yeah. And if it stopped, then I— because I used to feel that way.

I'm curious to know, you obviously talk with a lot of business owners and you are going to attract in a lot of introverts. Do you think like what's the split like? Or is it like we were saying, well, if you're a systems person, then, you know, you might get attracted to, you know, the introvert, or like you might be introverted. I'm curious to know, is that a business owner thing, or do you also meet a lot of extrovert business owners?

And there are definitely a lot of extroverted business owners. And I think one of the biggest concerns for extroverts, because— and you've seen me talk about this when we're at EO— I'm like, the biggest concern for me when I go and speak to an extroverted business owner, they're the primary salesperson in their business. And I'm like, well, good luck selling your business. Like, yeah, you know, your business isn't worth anything until you can fix that. So they don't want to do sales systemization. But they must do it if they want to take their business to the next level. I think when we're talking about the percentages of introverts and extroverts, it's actually a really hard thing to answer because like your conversation, you, you are very well read. When it comes to this, you're like, well, I'm still not sure. And then when I go and speak at these global organizations and they're like, oh, I was an introvert, but don't worry, I'm not anymore.

Yeah.

What staff member of theirs is going to feel comfortable saying that they're introverted to somebody that thinks it's a disease? Yeah. So I think that a lot of people, when they're doing personality profiles in their organization, if they want to be promoted, they're going to— they know how to answer the questions the extroverted way. And I feel like they're going to do that. So I feel like when you, you've got this whole group of people that don't know, you've got this whole group of people that are going to answer the questions to get promoted. And then you've got these other people that feel like they've recovered from it and are now extroverted. So if I was going to pick the percentages in America, I would say it's about— everyone says it's about 50/50. I would say there are more introverts than there are extroverts. But when you go to someplace like Finland, which is one of the most introverted countries in the world, and Finland, I would say it's closer to the 75-80%. And I mean, you're also talking about those true, true extroverts. I mean, for me, I would, I would much prefer to deal— I feel like everybody has their own burdens to bear. And I am always seeing extroverts that are apologizing about interrupting or apologizing for having another idea and not being able to follow what you say. I do a lot to support introverts because I believe that introverts see themselves as second-class citizens, and I don't believe they are. I just believe our path to success is different to that of an extrovert. But I also see how much extroverts can struggle without systems as well.

Yeah.

And a lot of times they're apologizing for it. They know it's an issue. But their HR manager will pull them aside and say, hey, let's, you know, let's, you know, do a Daniel Goleman kind of EI class or something like that. Well, we can work on this. So I just feel like the introverts are afraid to admit the answer.

Let's switch gears for a moment. Let's talk sales. So I was always of the view that you needed to be this loud cigar chomping person to be a great salesperson. You know, we see them all the time on Instagram and all of this, and then when I saw who were some of the best performing salespeople, they were quiet, mild-mannered. They listened a lot more than they talked. They asked a lot more questions than they spoke. And so that to me was a turning point because I remember the first time I hired a sales trainer, he was teaching me, you know, you've got to overcome objections, you've got to use these lines. And it was so unnatural. It was like, you know, I wanted to take a bath with a, you know, with an iron sponge, you know, afterwards. And to me, when I started selling just my way, which is diagnostically asking questions, probing, and then really letting the person speak a lot more than me, I had way, way more success. So what are your thoughts on selling?

Yeah, I think if I was to wing something, I would do better being an extrovert because If you don't actually have a system and process, what I find is people don't ask the right questions if they ask questions at all. A lot of, a lot of introverts will say to me all the time, I feel like we're 30 minutes into a conversation. We're just starting to talk about what we do and the conversation's over. So that you kind of have to win on personality. That's not great sales though. Great sales is going in like I used to joke about. I really feel like I could send I'm going to show my age. You'll all understand my joke. But I used to joke about— I really could send a cassette tape at the appointment time and then 45 minutes later send the contract. And as long as they all showed up at the right time, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't actually need to be in the room. And that comes from specialization and knowing your niche so well that they see you as a mind reader. But if you think about the way most people market, most people market from a very vanilla any customer's a good customer perspective, in which case you need to know how to listen. Yeah. And you need to know how to ask the right questions. And I'm very clear on asking the right questions because I feel like a lot of people hear, I need to ask questions, and then they ask the dumbest questions that don't lead to the conversation that you want to have. So it's being very precise in the questions that you have. I think, though, that when I look at the best introverted sellers, they're always the best sellers in the company. And if I look at the worst introverted sellers, they're always the worst sellers in the company. And then you've got a middle bound that are all extroverted. And don't get me wrong, there are the occasional extroverts that sit at the top, but Zig Ziglar was an introvert. If you think about Jeffrey Gitomer— Jeffrey Gitomer and I are good friends, and I can tell you he's definitely a big, big, big extrovert. But he said, I couldn't teach others until I learned how to sell through process and a system and force myself to learn how to listen and actively listen, not just listen to speak. And so if I was to go down that, down that sales route, even looking at something like the Global Gurus list of top 30 sales professionals, which I'm honored to be on, and I feel like that really shows as an introvert, you can, you can be the best in the world. But most of the people on that list are introverted. I'm just the only one that has the word introvert on my books. Yeah. And don't get me wrong, there are extroverts on that list too. And, you know, some of the best in the world are definitely extroverted. But I would say the very best in most organizations, and funnily enough, most of the sales leaders that I tend to work with tend to be on the introverted side. And a lot of the newer sellers, especially as we're now living in this world where people are less socially aware, they have less emotional intelligence because they spend too much time on cell phones and not spending time in the rooms with other people, it's becoming even more so that way. So to, to, to answer your question as direct as I can, anybody with a sales process will do better than somebody without. Yeah, anybody that asks and has a consultative mindset and asks questions by far will do better. And yes, the less you speak, the more you'll sell. But again, the right questions comes to, comes to process. And I, I do feel that extroverts they love to wing things and that's to their detriment, especially if they're the business owner and they want to sell their business.

Yeah, just high level, because my process brain can't help but ask this question now. It's like when you think about selling from a high level and the key steps, what do you see the key steps that you want to take someone through if you're selling a product or a service?

No, it's, it's a really interesting question because I find that it's changing and I'm going to just disagree with everything you and I just agreed on because one of the things that I believe now is anybody that's not specializing in a certain area. And it's funny when, when I do this, I speak a lot at EO entrepreneurship organizations and I think I've spoken at 43 chapters in the last 18 months and I do this at almost every one of them. I joke about the fact that everybody knows niche marketing works. They just know that their situation is different. It doesn't work for them.

Yeah.

And what it is is it's really fear. So they're scared of losing their current clients. And I'm like, if you're a videographer, your current clients don't care if you put on the website you're now a dentist, right? They just, they're going to say, can you still do the videography? You do great work. They, referrals don't care because they've been referred. And most people earn all of their business through that kind of framing. So I believe that there is a process for when you don't specialize and there's a process for when you do. Also, when you kind of— I'm reaching out to you to sell and versus you're reaching out to me. I think the luxury that we all in this room have is that people have read our books, they're reaching out to us, and it's kind of our deal to lose. And a lot of times when you do digital advertising, as long as you specialize and speak to your demographic correctly, I believe the sales process needs to be far more informed selling. Right. So I could ask you, Alan, all these questions about your business. But if I know you're, if I know you're an introverted digital marketer that has responded to one of my ads, I know you've probably got this problem. So I don't have to ask as many questions. What I need to show is that you've done your research. I've done my research. And so I'll answer it to almost— I've got a new method that I call the No Small Talk Sales Method because it starts this dialogue. What do you mean, no small talk? You're supposed to do small talk. And so I'll talk about when this applies and then what the method could look like if it's, if it if the person's not coming, you know, pre-sold. But what I find is that the biggest hurdle with most salespeople that do consultative selling is they get on the phone, they're like, oh, David, I'm so glad to meet you. Yes, me too. Well, tell me a little bit about your business. My first question is always, sure, after checking out my website, what questions do you have? Yeah. And then you find they've done no homework, they've done no research. And so now I'm angry at you now. A lot of people, like I work with a lot of accountants, a lot of MSPs, like managed service providers, financial services people, wealth managers. They've done their research, but they don't say it.

Yeah.

And because of that, they're like, tell me a little bit about your business. And now I'm going to spend 15 minutes getting you up to speed on my business and I'm going to tell you my whole life story. Not only is it not necessary for you to know that, I'm going to be angry that I told you.

It's a waste of everybody's time.

Everybody's time.

And I feel like with the world of AI as well. Like, there's no excuse not to have a deep understanding of someone before you chat with them.

Exactly. And I can tell you, like, I— one of the things I say in my book is, like, in networking, we also all used to sell— sorry, we also used to network in these little communities, and we're so worried about what everybody thought of us. And then all of a sudden we're in big cities and people started ripping each other off. And I'm like, I'm so glad we're now in this world where it's so easy to check your reviews.

Yeah.

But the truth is, when we're in a sale, we want to feel that somebody's done their homework. So I find the— I can truncate the sales process or pretty much cut it in half and get rid of all the small talk. Now you do need small talk at different points. Story is great, a great way to generate rapport with somebody because it activates the reticular activating system of the brain. And some people still need rapport. I just love doing it at the end of the conversation rather than the beginning. What I found is the best way to handle a conversation at the very beginning is to say, I'm so glad we can get on a call together today. They respond, yes, me too. And I say, now, 'While I've taken a moment to look at the brief notes you put on the call reservation, I've checked out your website and your LinkedIn profile. Because a lot of that is static, what I'd love to do first is take a quick step back, hear a little bit more about you, what you're struggling with, and how I can be the most help to you in the time we have together today.' And people are like, 'You mean after the small talk?' I'm like, 'No, right away.' The moment somebody says that, you hear this sense of relief where people are, 'Oh, thank God this person's done their homework.' And what I've found is it took me 60 seconds to check out their website and their LinkedIn profile to go, yep, that's my, my niche, or I get an understanding of how my products and services apply. And then they will then tell me their problem. And my entire job is to help them realize that what they see as a problem is a symptom of something else. And it's actually Matt Dixon's book, The Challenger Sale, has the science behind this. He's— and his framing is if some— if somebody tells you what they want, which usually if they've booked a call, they know what they want. If they tell you what they want and you give it to them, they'll fight you on price, they'll fight you on timeline, and they won't be loyal. But if you can give them a paradigm shift and help them see that their problem they think they have is not their problem, they have a different problem, then they won't fight you on price, timeline, and they'll be incredibly loyal. So what I do, for instance, is somebody will come to me and they're like, I've got a sales issue, we can't close sales. And I'm like, I probably think it's a lead issue usually, or the fact that they're commoditized. So I will say something, and this is where once they've finished speaking, and my job only at that time is to listen, is to say something like, as you say this, one of the concerns I have is that my belief is that people are seeing you as a commodity, and that's why you're fighting about price so much. But look, don't let me project anything. Let me ask you a question. If I was to meet you in a networking event, Dave, and maybe I talked about myself for the last 20 minutes and then said, oh my gosh, Dave, I can't believe I haven't even asked you what it is that you do. What would you say? And usually the response I get back to that is, that's where I get stuck. And I think this is a business that's been around for 20 years.

Yeah.

And I'm like, that's what's got me concerned. And then I turn it— I go into a story about someone else that thought they had a sales problem, but if they had to start with sales, they would have already lost. And how it was actually a messaging issue and they had to decommoditize and they had to find their own marketplace. And then how they were able to charge all this extra money and really their sales process was it's not that they didn't benefit from the sales process. It was the sales process didn't have to be that good. And when I get to the end of the story, all I say is, now, Dave, does that make sense? And all I'm doing is nodding my head if we're on video and asking a question that forces you to say yes.

Yeah.

And then I can transition into what I would call a trial close, like say, saying something like, well, at this stage I can really do one of three things. I can direct you to some great free content. I can direct you to an online program. I can talk to you about what working with me one-on-one looks like. And what I've, what I've realized is if somebody says what they're really doing is defining what price point they fit into. So once they do that, if they pick 2 or 3, they're saying, actually, Matt, could you sell to me? And I've got their permission to sell. Then you've got a group that's like, no, no, I, I'm much more logical than that. I didn't buy into the story. So instead of buying something which I probably could afford, tell me about what your free stuff looks like. And the other group is, I wasn't gonna buy anything anyway. I had no money. So I go overboard for like 5 to 7 minutes. I give them all this free content and it's usually 3 things. It's like I, I talk them through an audio that I'm going to send them, a reading task, which is usually what I see as the 3 major problems they'll have, and a template to solve their 2 problems. And then I say, and I will send that through to you all at the end of today's call. And they'll respond with, thank you so much. And you say, no problem. I can leave you at just that, or I can talk to you about you know, my online program and certain group will just say, no, that'll, that'll be fine. And the thing that's liberating about that is I know that person has no money because if I've spent 7 minutes giving them value and they still don't want to hear about what I offer as a service, I know that they've been wasting my time or my sales team knows, which means they're not going to follow that person up. It gets rid of the time wasters. Then there's another group that go, that was really valuable. Thank you so much. No, tell me about your online program. Or tell me about working with you one-on-one. And then those people generally buy as well. Now there's always a group that says, tell me about all three. And I found they usually buy the least cost thing. So it's an exhausting thing, but you just have to go through it. Now I find that for that to work well, you have to end the conversation. Like once they— you go through what working with you looks like, you go through the price point. I always then— and this sounds counterintuitive, but I will always then, once I've explained it, I'll say something like, does that sound like something that would work for you? They say yes. I say, great. Well, the hardest thing is to get booked into my schedule. So I'm looking at these dates and I actually do the booking first. And then once I've done the booking, I'm like, great. Now that we've got those dates all set out to lock them in stone, I then ask for their credit card details. Yeah. Now at that point, it's going to find it— they're going to find it very hard not to just give me the credit card details. Now accountants will say, oh, but we can't do that. We've got this 45,000-page document they need to read and sign off on before we can ask for the money. So what I do is I say, well, hang on a second, if they give you their credit card details, are they more likely to sign the document? Yes. If they give you their credit card details and they don't sign the document, can you give them a refund? Yes. What's the likelihood you'll ever have to, considering it's a standard document they'd have to sign with every other accountant? None. Why are we not doing it in this way? So I always suggest scheduling, credit card, and if you have to, contract. And then at the end, I then say, well, I'm so glad that it looks like we're going to be working together. And they'll say, yes, me too. And I say, now, before we finish the call today, are there any last questions you have for me? And a lot of people just say no, especially introverts. They're like, I'm done. My cup is full. Extroverts will feel like they need to just— they need to connect with the person that just purchased from them. So they will ask you about what it's like to live in Austin, or they'll ask some question to create small talk. And what I've learned is you have to give them 3 minutes of small talk. At the most is that's all they really need to, to not wake up tomorrow and decide they don't want to work with you. Now, when you're dealing with someone that's not a specialty, then you really do need to develop rapport. You then need to move into setting an agenda, which is where you say, now, David, before we get started today, I'd really love to ask you some questions so that I can then show you exactly how we can fit in. Does that sound like something that would work for you? No one's going to say no, don't ask me questions. You then ask questions and the questions then lead to helping them understand. Your job is to help them then connect that to cost. And I've still found the best way to get them to see that is through storytelling. Now, if you don't sell to a specialty, then you need to have more stories, unfortunately. But the stories don't need to be exactly for the niche, so you don't need as many as you think. And then the rest of it works exactly the same way. Mm-hmm.

Makes me wonder, Alan, because you've kind of pointed out now we're talking about sales, but the marketing piece is such an important part of making this sales part work.

Well, it's, it's the setup, right? So I often say that if you get the first 5 blocks of the one-page marketing plan right, which is selecting your target market, your messaging, your media, your lead nurturing, well, it's like passing the, the ball to the, to the person who's going to spike it, right? And so it makes sales much more frictionless, much easier, and you don't have to kind of be having this adversarial relationship. Because, you know, if I, if I come and push you, which is what a lot of sales trainers recommend, it's like, you know, overcome objections, push this, push that. Well, your natural reaction is going to be push back, right? So we're going to create this tension. So you want to remove pressure from the situation. You want someone to come to the sales appointment ready, knowing all of the stuff, sometimes even knowing the price, knowing as much as, as much as possible. You want someone as well informed as possible. So now we're getting on a call. We're not talking about, you know, what, what are you selling and how much is it? We're talking at a much higher level. We're now figuring out, okay, are we a good fit for each other and so on.

I mean, you're exactly right. I mean, what I find is when you match good marketing with good sales, your closure rates can be in the 90 percentile and you can close people right there on the spot because they've already done it. I mean, you've given them everything they need to make a decision. Now, depending on where they are in the— what price point we're looking at and depending on you know, whether or not we need more leads because we've got more salespeople, right? I, I a lot of times will say don't put the price on the website, get it onto the call, because a lot of times we can build much more value on that phone call. But good marketers are really good at making a price seem cheap as well. So if you've got a bad marketer, again, you're like, don't put the price on the website. You've got to do this. If you've got a great marketer and it's at that different part, different phase of the relationship, you don't need to put— you can put the price on the website. I find that sales, where it usually becomes unstuck, is that a marketer has done a really good job of finding a specialty. They've done a really good job of pre-qualifying the person, making sure they know the price, and then they get on the phone with the salesperson that speaks to them like they're just everybody else, and then it all falls apart, or the product or service doesn't fit, right? So I've seen marketers that say, oh, you know, we're going to choose this as our specialty, and then they explain their digital marketing like if you were a plumber or an electrician or a a business coach. It's the same application.

Yeah.

And they're like, but it is the same application. But it doesn't matter that it is. It matters that they don't believe it is.

Yeah.

And so from a marketing perspective, you need to— you definitely attract one type of person. But usually when it gets to the sales process, you know, everything else is different. Actually, let me— there's a story that I tell a lot from stage about a language coach that came to me with a sales problem when it was a marketing problem. And it was— she charged like $50 to $80 an hour for a private consultation. And she did this for years. And then all of a sudden she had all these people moving into California that were willing to do it for like $30 to $40 an hour. And then she had on top of that, thanks to the global economy we live in, there's like people on Craigslist, I'll do it for $12 an hour and they're in China. And then thanks to our new AI friends, people think they can learn directly through AI. It's not there yet, but it's getting close. My mother's learning French on, on AI at the moment. Actually, pronunciation is terrible with an Australian accent, but she's getting there. But the problem was she was now competing against free. So she comes to me, she's like, I'm losing current clients. I'm struggling to get new clients. How can you help? And she's looking for a sales solution. And I said, look, I can show you a sales methodology that will definitely help you close more deals. And truthfully, I became so good at closing from bad marketing without the bulldog techniques because, you know, with my stuff, you'll never find a bullying dogmatic, especially if you've got to work with that client long term. To, to dogmatically close them means that you've got to remember that you did that every time you see them. You don't want to do that. Life's too long. So for me, I said, there's a lot you can learn to close a deal on this end, but why not try to avoid the battle altogether? So what we did is we looked at all the clients that she worked with over the years, and she'd worked with— well, she'd worked with hundreds. There were two executives that were being relocated to China that she helped them understand, like, the difference between e-commerce in China and the Western world, the the difference in rapport. Like, I'll give an example. If I'm in the US and I'm trying to sell you something, or in Australia, at the end of 45 minutes in the Western world, I might say something horrible if I'm bad at sales, like, do you want to move forward? And if you say you want to think about it now and maybe in a week's time, I know I'm not getting that sale. In China, they're going to want to see you 4 or 5 times before they even discuss business. They're probably going to want to see you drunk over karaoke once or twice. It's just who they are. But they're talking about 20 to 50-year deals, not transactional relationships. She helped them understand that, how to hold a business card, why you've got to reduce your accent, not just learn the language. Like so many things. Just stop. What are you doing? And she's like, there's just a few things I'm just trying to help. And when I, when I deliver this story from stage, one of the things I do all the time is I'll say, who here does something above and beyond for their clients? And sometimes, depending on the room you're in, it's funny, like sometimes everybody puts their hand up and then other times nobody does. And it's just really humble, very introverted groups. And I'm like, Has anyone here ever got a referral? You have? Well, I won't promise. Like, imagine if I'm going to introduce you to Alan and like, oh, you've got to try David's stuff. I mean, he does nothing special at all. Like, it just doesn't happen. And then it's like, you want to refer, you want a testimonial? I'm going to write one for you. I'm not going to do that unless you do something amazing. So everybody does, but they don't talk about it. And so usually I'm like, well, you don't know what you do, so call your customers and find out. And there's a script that I give in the book that if we get time, I can give you the exact script today about how to elicit that information from your client. 'Cause otherwise they just say you provide great customer service and you're really knowledgeable, which is useless 'cause no one's gonna say, oh, you've gotta hire me, you know, I'm not knowledgeable, but we're also terrible at customer service. So once you've got that information, like, that's when you start to think of who you can help. And for Wendy, I was like, you're doing so much more for these people than just language tuition. What are you doing? She's like, just a few things, I'm just trying to help. And I said, well, look, is it fair to assume as a result of the assistance you're giving these people, they're gonna be more successful when they get to China? She's like, yeah, I mean, that's the point, right? I said, great, then let's call you the China Success Coach. Forget about Mandarin education for a second. We'll sell that later. Let's create what we ended up calling the China Success Intensive, which was a 5-week program that worked with all the executives, the spouse, the children that were being relocated to make sure they were successful when they got there. Now, she loved the idea of this, but she's like, well, who do I sell it to? What she's actually asking is, who do I go networking to meet? Which in the digital age, which I know we'll get to, is becoming more and more important. People are trusting live events far more than digital interactions now, or feel like they need to go to more live events. But she's also asking, you know, who do I use digital marketing to target or what do I put on my social media? Well, who do you think? This is where people always go too broad. They're like, oh, I think it's the executive, which makes sense. I moved from Australia to the US. I was terrified. They got to move to a place that doesn't speak the same language. Didn't think it was the ideal target. Then I'm like, well, who else do you think it could be? She's like, well, obviously it's the company. Makes sense. They've got millions of dollars often riding on an executive being successful. But I still didn't think it was the right person. So I said, I think it's the immigration attorney. Now she looks at me like I'm speaking a foreign language. I'm like, think about it. These people make $5,000 to $7,000 for doing all the bureaucracy that comes with the visa. They got to get a client, they've got to pay their staff, they've got rent to pay. They'd be lucky to make $3,000 for a successful introduction. Sorry, $3,000 for doing a visa. I said, so just offer them $3,000 for a successful introduction to the China Success Coach. Now she's networking to meet immigration attorneys. She's talking to them and they're like, I can double my profit for a simple introduction. Sure. What have I got to say? She just had them say, congratulations, you've now got a visa. I just want to double-check, are you as ready as possible to go? And she'd have them respond with, we got to, you know, once they responded with, you know, we've got our visa, we got our place sorted, we're learning language, kids are getting pretty good at it too. She said, there's a lot more to it than that. I think you need to speak to the China Success Coach. She then get on the phone with the easiest sale in the world. They were terrified to go. They were motivated. Motivated, you know, to— the organization was motivated to pay and they were recommended by their attorney. And that's why she was able to charge $30,000 for doing it. So she struggled to charge $50 to $80 an hour. Now she's charging $30,000 minus the $3,000 commission. She's making $27,000 for the easiest sale in the world. So what I find is if you lean into what you naturally do well and everybody has unique skills and then you say, which group needs this most? And then you give that information to someone like Ellen and say, go and find me people like that. And then you attach that to— I mean, think about how, like, Wendy could have butchered the sales process and still closed deals. And yet she was coming to me to learn how to get the bulldog sales techniques that she, she needed to be successful.

We talk about that a lot, is fishing upstream for your ideal client, meaning who's got your client before you? Someone is paying money for advertising, for lead generation, for whatever to acquire a client. Before they have you. So who has your client? Who's already there and built trust with them? Very, very powerful strategy. I'd love to get in— you started talking a little bit about networking. So networking's kind of got this, and I feel cringe just saying the word networking. I prefer like—

Dave cringed just before we got on there. I did, I knew that.

So it always brings up this kind of vibe of people exchanging business cards and it's kind of, I feel like it's like almost like a magician's convention. You know, one magician pulls a rabbit out, the other does a card trick and they're all, they've got no audience. They're just doing tricks to each other and trying to sell to each other and it feels very, very awkward. So how do we turn networking and also talk about networking in the digital age like LinkedIn has again, depending on who you talk to and what you see now is full of AI and a lot of slop and a lot of people doing weird cringey things on LinkedIn as well. You know, it's interesting.

Interesting. So I was at South by Southwest in Sydney, my last trip to Australia, and Neil Patel was talking about how people are now coming back more to the networking room because they don't trust the slop online. And I feel that there's so much you can do to build authenticity online. But I think a lot of the problems that happen in the networking room happen outside the networking room in the digital realm. And so the first thing I try to do is redefine networking. So, you know, for the people that are listening that kind of don't really understand what— where I kind of came from, I had a reading speed of a 6th grader in late high school and I kind of I fell into sales because I lost my job and it was 93 doors before my first sale. And I literally taught myself how to sell watching YouTube videos. And so what was interesting is system and process was what I was looking for. I went to YouTube, I was like, what's the system and process? And I would spend 8 hours in the day applying what I learned, and then I'd rush home and I'd spend 8 hours practicing. And then I'd spend weekends, 16 hours practicing. And that's how I got better really quick. And everyone's like, oh my God, I don't want to do that for 16 hours. I'm not suggesting that. There's smarter ways now. But I tried to apply the same approach to networking and I came unstuck. So when I moved to the United States, I, I decided that while I'd built businesses in, in Australia, I wanted to help other people grow their businesses. And I remember, and this wasn't even networking like in a physical event, like I remember I'd moved into an apartment just to look for a place to live in Austin, Texas, and I decided that I wanted to kind of— I really wanted to help introverted service-based businesses predominantly obtain rapid growth because I think there's something heroic about a person with enough talent, skill, and belief in themselves to start a business of their own, especially if they're introverted and they think the cards are stacked against them. But I hadn't really worked out how I was going to explain it to somebody. And I remember being at the gym at this apartment complex, and I actually got talking to some guy that owned a gym, and he started to tell me about how much he loved the gym and being part of people's fitness journeys. And it literally was about 10 minutes in where he looked at me and he said, And what is it you do? And I said, and I literally to this day am still embarrassed that I said this. I said, oh, thanks for asking. I'm a sales trainer. And it was like the coloring of his face changed. It was like he decided that he didn't like me from that one statement. And he started to tell me how he hated dogmatic salespeople and he'd hired salespeople for his sales team in the past and he believes in authenticity and salespeople just don't have that. And I was like, I'm different. I started telling him about my 93 Doors and I felt like I was slamming something down his throat he did not want. And I'm like, I was probably at that point trying to make a friend. I wasn't even trying to sell to someone. I was defending my honor almost. I'm never doing that again. So I decided I actually went out networking about a month later. And it's funny how much I'd ruminated over that. Like with sales, I could always go, well, it's an external system, I can tinker with it. But this was like an offense to my nature. And I was like, I'm never calling myself a sales trainer again. So the next time I was out, somebody asked me what I did, and I'm prepared this time, right? I said I was in marketing. Everybody loves marketers. And the response I get was, oh, I need someone in marketing. How much do you cost? And I'm like, we just met. Now we're talking about price. That was so awkward. Next person told me that they were— they already had someone in marketing. And I'm like, what am I supposed to say now? Like, I'm different. I got magic ruby slippers. Like, it was really tough. And I remember going home and I feel that the only thing that was in existence was this thing called the elevator pitch, which I'm sure that's why you cringe, which is definitely a system, right? I do this for this group of people, even if it's just terrible. And I feel like that's what most people see as good networking. I've got this killer elevator pitch. I just feel like it sounds inauthentic, contrived, transactional. But what I found was if people didn't do transactional networking, they did what I call aimless networking, which is they go to these rooms, they have these shallow conversations. Finally comes up, what is it that you do? And they respond with something like, especially in Australia, well, my day job's this. Who wants to buy from someone that, that underwhelms with what they do? So it just became this thing of everyone walking out with like 10 business cards going, I'm not going to call them, but if they call me, I'll work with them, which they don't. And when you get your pile gets just a little bit too big on your desk, you convince yourself networking doesn't work. And so this was the first time I went to YouTube and couldn't find the answer. So again, coming back to your system, introverts create systems. I'm like, I need to create a system. But this was the first time I think ever that I had to create something that didn't exist. Like my first book, in the first chapter, it says there is nothing I'm going to teach you in this book that you can't learn in another book. All I'm doing is putting it into an order that an introvert will be able to achieve and making sure that it's free of all the stuff we wouldn't do. This was the first time I had to go, okay, I need to create something. And this is what I, what I ended up realizing is we needed something that didn't put us in the commodity box from the moment that we met them. So saying I'm a sales trainer or I'm a marketing coach, they know what that is. They know if they like it, they don't like it. And what I realized is people need to introduce themselves by their own framing because everyone's unique, right? Even if you buy a franchise, you should be powered by the franchise, but not defined by it. It's not, I'm now just that. So what I did is I started calling myself the Rapid Growth Guy, like the China Success Coach. And what I found is the moment I said I'm the Rapid Growth Guy, people leaned forward and said, what's that?

Yeah.

And I said it like I'm a business coach. And all of a sudden people leaned forward and said, what's that? And they said it for two reasons. One is that because I was interested before I was interesting, which any networking book will teach. And the other was our brains are programmed to solve puzzles. So they needed to know what it was before they decided whether they wanted it or not. And that then allowed for me to respond in a way that got people to ask instead of me shoving something down their throat. And what I found is if I responded in a far more specific way— again, this comes down to knowing your market— and then didn't make it about me, and I'll explain what I mean. So if you respond with your functional at that point, that doesn't work. If you start asking questions, like some people think they're clever, they're like, oh, I don't say what I do, I just start asking questions. Nobody wants to be in interrogation the moment they meet you. And then other people then will do the elevator pitch. What I found is the best way to respond was to not make it about you. So when somebody asked me what I did, I would say, thanks for asking, I'm the Rapid Growth Guy, just like I said I was a business coach. And then when they said, what exactly is that? I would say, well, one of the things I love to see more than anything in the world is an amazing introverted service provider with enough talent, skill, and belief in themselves to start a business of their own. But what I find, I just hate seeing this, they get stuck in this endless hamster wheel of struggling to find interested people, trying to set themselves apart, trying to make the sale, really feeling like people only care about one one thing, price. Do you know anyone like that? Now I'm starting a dialogue. They would always say yes because I've researched the room before I've went. I've connected with them in advance using LinkedIn. And because of that, when they get— when I get the affirmative, I then say, well, I'm on a mission to help people just like you realize you really can have a rapid growth business doing what you love, just not by getting better at your functional skill. You're probably amazing at that. Instead, just focusing on 3 things outside the scope of that that really allow you to build a business that revolves around you, your family, and your life, not the other way around. Actually, let me give an example and then I'll move into a story. Now, the reason why this works is for a few reasons. The first is it wasn't transactional. I wasn't talking— it wasn't pitchy. I was talking about the change I want to see in the world, the mission that I'm on to help the world. Now, the biggest thing that I try to teach people about networking is people don't care what you do. They want to see that you care. Then they'll listen to what you do. And the best way to convey what you do is through a story, not a whole bunch of jargon. The second thing, so you'll notice that I'm trying to convey care and you'll also notice I didn't even tell you what I do, right? I just talked about my passion and mission. The story will do that. So what I've found is by going in and the framework is very simple, it's, you know, I'm the rapid growth guy. Come up with your own version of the China Success Coach, the rapid growth guy. What is that? I love to see this. I— sorry, I hate to see this. I love to see this or I love to see this. I hate to see this. You can do it either way. Then, do you know anyone like that? When they respond in the affirmative, or they'll say, I know someone like that, you then say, I'm on a mission too. But the goal is not to say what you do, but say the outcome that they go— that you want them to achieve by understanding 3 simple things.

Don't you feel they still want to put you in a box? They're like, so is it sales training or is it marketing that you do? Or they're still trying to put you into a known box kind of thing.

And you're going to get yourself into that eventually, but you want them to see your difference. I'll give you an example. And again, to come back to your digital age thing, my focus is always when I look at online, I didn't want to be that person taking a photo of my dog or my donut for something to say online. I think all of us as introverts are trying to avoid constantly feeling like we have to post something new. That's look at me, look at me. That's why we're providing this kind of more detailed content. But in the networking room, I want to be the clearest so I don't have to be the loudest. And that translates online as well. But I'm very strategic in the dialogue that I have. So I'm interested before I try to be interesting, so that when I say I'm the Rapid Growth Guy, they're far more likely, especially because our brains are programmed to want to know what I do. So I want to know what I do. So when I say I'm the Rapid Growth Guy, I know that they're going to say, what exactly is that? Or how do you do that? Then I say, I love to see this, I hate to see this. Do you know anyone like that? Which forces a yes or no answer, or, oh, I have a friend that's like that, but I'm actually forcing the dialogue that I want to have at that specific moment. Once I get an affirmative, I will then talk about my mission and then segue straight into a story, but I'm going to do it in a specific way. So what I'll do is I'll end the networking script and I'll show you how I go to it just so you can see how I almost feel like I'm interrupting myself because I want you to believe that I'm about to hit you with a bunch of jargon. Nobody wants to be hit with jargon, and they're so appreciative when they realize that you almost did and then they didn't. So I might say, I'm on a mission to help people like yourself realize you really can have a rapid growth business, just not by getting better at your functional skill, but instead just 3 things outside the scope of that that'll really allow you to have a business that revolves around you, your family— sorry, you, your family, and your life, not the other way around. Actually, let me give you an example, right? And then I'll say, so Wendy, for instance, you know, when she first came to me, she had a really big problem. And then I'll tell the Wendy story you just heard. And then at the end I'll say, does that make sense? So it's not that I don't want people to hear that I'm a sales trainer and that I'm a marketing coach. I want people to hear that I'm both of those things. I'm also a specialist in introversion. And if I say, oh, but what I do, you know, Alan is really technical and I start talking about my passion for sales, you're now going to fixate on sales. If I start with marketing, you're now going to see me as a marketer. So what I want to do is I want to tell a story and build out the problem. And when I tell a story and, you know, I do a lot of sales kickoffs and I teach sales storytelling and I help people realize that if you can't define it from a real cost, an opportunity cost, and an emotional cost, and then close out the story with those same 3 factors and then deliver the moral, you're not delivering a story, you're delivering a testimonial or a case study. And introverts hate to deliver those. Most extroverts do too, right? Because it sounds braggy, right? The Wendy story, it's educational, it's motivational, it's designed to embed me as the only logical choice to work with. But it's a different framework. So what I do is I then tell the story, but I'm getting them to see the problem and they're like, I'm not sure where he's going with this yet. And then I deliver the epiphany, which is where in sales I would say we're doing a paradigm shift. I'm doing the same in a networking room because I know all of my clients have that, that issue. So then I deliver the paradigm shift and then I deliver the outcomes and then I deliver the moral and I say, does that make sense? And at that point, usually they know what I am. They're like, oh, so you're not really in sales, you're not. And you always get this, so you're in kind of like sales, but you also do marketing, but you kind of especially— like, they're now putting it together with all the words that I wanted to tell them, but they're doing it from a place of understanding because stories have a wonderful power of allowing you to try on the whole thing and see if it fits, where jargon, everything gets analyzed one thing at a time. Yeah, I'll give you an example. Like, the reason I love story— and it's funny, I used to sit down with people and like when I was doing door-to-door telecommunications sales, which I used to do on Sydney Road back in Melbourne actually, and I would sometimes see people sit down— like I'd sit down, there'd be 10 brochures sitting on their desk, and I knew they'd remember more of what I told them than the other 10 combined because I'd tell it in a story. And people remember up to 22 times more information when embedded into a story. The interesting thing is The thing I love about storytelling, especially with people with highly complex services, is they want to educate. They want to show you how smart they are, but it's not relevant to the story. So the story actually forces you to tell them what they need to hear in the story to make it relevant to them and allow them to try it on through someone else's experience. The other thing is when you tell a story, it short-circuits the logical mind. You speak directly to the emotional mind. So if I'm telling you why I think what I'll do will work for you, you'll say, well, That'll work for me. That won't. My situation's different. Hang up the phone, you know, interrupt. Or you then say, but you're really a sales trainer then, right? Like if I'm trying to give you jargon, but when I tell a story, it short circuits that part of the brain and the emotional brain literally goes storytime and it listens. It hears all the detail in the story as fact. And so duty of care, only real stories, please. But when you tell a real story and you deliver the moral, their only thing that they're thinking is, does this moral apply to me? And if the moral applies, then they want what Wendy has or they want what David has. And then they— it makes a big difference. The other thing, and this is really powerful for introverts, to bring it back to the introverted topic, is when you tell a story, it actually activates the reticular activating system of a person's brain. It's like when we were chatting about why I tell stories the moment I walk on stage. It's because it's not my natural place. And what I find is when I'm walking on stage, I do feel like I'm walking up to deliver a performance. But the moment I start saying a story, What I find is my brain synchronizes with theirs, right? Our reticular activating system synchronizes. It creates artificial rapport. And from that very moment of me doing that, I feel like I'm more in a conversation like this around, you know, lunch rather than in a room of 1,000 people. Yeah. And so what I've found is by structuring that complete way, then their questions are far more direct because they've experienced the Wendy story. They're like, oh, I want what Wendy has, or they'll ask questions about the story or how I've managed to synthesize all those things. 'Cause the one thing I know is like, if I say, you know, no one cares when I say I'm a Master in Neurolinguistic Programming, I'm a business coach, I'm a branding expert, I'm this, I'm that, I'm that. They just don't care. They don't care how hard it was for me to learn these things or how long it took. And because they don't really understand any of them, they fixate on the first one that comes out of my mouth. But when I do it in this way, the first milestone in my mind of any networking event is to be interested, not interesting. The second milestone is to create an inquisitiveness. The third milestone is to convey care so they care enough to understand what you do. And then you use story to do that, to help them understand that what you do is different to anything they've seen before. And they're the one then convincing themselves of your difference as opposed to you having to do it.

I love the way that you articulate this because even the way that you talk it through, you speak it like a process and you went back right at the end to the 1, 2, and 3. And I feel like you're sales approach had a very structured way. Then we moved into networking where, okay, well, there wasn't really a system that you were modeling on and you needed to build it from scratch. One of the things I, I couldn't let this conversation finish without diving into— how do you re-engineer process when we think of stuff like AI that's starting to change the way that some of your processes may have worked? I'd love to kind of finish on that, thinking a little bit about how AI is changing sales and the way that you think about networking and if you're adding new steps or collapsing steps or what that looks like.

Yeah, it's interesting. So best example, the two sales processes I gave you. So one, the, the one of inbound calls that really came from COVID right? So during COVID what I found was people didn't really do Zoom calls and then all of a sudden they were on Zoom all the time. And so you went from I'm going to book a Zoom call and you knew they didn't have a Zoom call right after it. So you knew you could have an hour, maybe two, but then everybody all of a sudden had 30-minute incremental Zooms. So you had 30 minutes. Well, if you spend 25 minutes doing small talk, when are you, when are you doing the sale? So I was like, we need to get rid of small talk. Well, knowing what I know about storytelling, I bet you I can use storytelling in replacement. And so what I find, and this is really important with sales, like if you change more than one thing, like any process, and you know, it's interesting, everybody knows that accounting has a process, right? When you want SOPs for everything, but when it comes to sales or networking, like, we just say what you say, it drove me nuts. So I'm like, no, you need a methodical process for both and it may not be perfect and that's fine. Like, I'm forever getting upset with busy procrastination. They're like, oh no, Matt's book's good, but I'm going to piece it with 6 other books. I don't care if you pick one of the other books, but piece together one system. Yeah. And then say, okay, I've got my baseline and follow the Henry Ford methodology, right? You can have any color car you want as long as it's black, right? Because you don't want any variables. Then you add one bell, then one whistle. You change one thing at a time because sales should be like a science experiment. You change one thing at a time and you see what works. And the networking is exactly the same. Now, when you apply that mindset to AI, well, the first thing I've found is that a lot of the— we're getting a lot of calls that come from AI. So yeah, we are using marketing messaging. We do have to be specific in AI. Well, in what the blogs we're writing and how we're writing them to get people to come to us to find us on AI. But what I found is because they're using AI now, they're not coming and saying you're the only choice. They're saying you're one of 3. And because of that, the sales process at the very beginning I found is the moment you find that they've come to you through AI, you now need to help them understand. You need to understand and problem solve from your questioning process what they entered into AI to get you as the answer. And the moment you have that, you then need a story of someone else that did that. And so the process applies the same. I don't think sales has changed much except for the fact that instead of saying they've read 100 blogs, they've had one conversation with AI. So your relationship is far looser unless you've taken them to website and got their email address and nurtured it. I find people are coming to phone call for a sales call far quicker because they asked their buddy AI and they said, Matt's the best introverted coach to go to. But that means that they're on a phone call sooner than I would like them to be on a phone call. And so we have found that qualifying out people has become a more— a necessity because we're getting more leads now that have— that feel like they're more educated, but they're actually far less educated in what we do and how we sell. The next would be, I feel that especially how AI and technology has ruined LinkedIn, there are ways around that. So what we have found is, and this very much comes back to the bringing authenticity back, so the more and more AI that comes out, like, it's funny, my last time I visited here, my father believed everything that he saw on TikTok and Instagram. Now he fact checks it against AI and he doesn't even believe it then. And I, one of the things I used to like and I wasn't really on social media a lot, but I would go on Instagram and sometimes I just like to see a puppy do something cool. And now when I look at it, I can't believe whether that puppy's real or not, and it's ruined it for me. And I think on Instagram, that's my lived experience. But on LinkedIn, people are tired of blank message, like all these spammy messages, right? And so what I've found is the best skill to combat As we are becoming less and less connected and more and more robotic, we need to find ways to insert connection. Why my networking script says, "I love to see, I hate to say." What we find is connecting with people, the very first thing, and as an introvert you might hate this, is to send them an audio message. And everyone's like, "Oh, we can send video messages." Video messages use an external platform. I can't prove whether it's real anymore. But on an iPhone and an Android, you can send somebody a 60-second audio message. And I have found it is to date the best way to get somebody that's ghosted you to come talk to you again because you send them an audio message. Now you always connect with them before the call. You send them an audio message and introverts are great with leading with empathy. Dave, don't worry about the deal, mate. It's just unusual for you not to get back to me. I just— let me know that you're okay. And they're always gonna respond for two reasons. One is it was nice for you to lead with empathy. And the second is they wanna know how you did it. Most people on LinkedIn have no clue that audio messaging is a thing. And the moment that I say audio messaging, everyone goes, oh, but I send videos. I'm like, that's not the same thing. Unfortunately, because of AI, there are— and I hate the fact that there are now people that I follow on YouTube that now have AI avatars and they think that that's okay, right? I don't listen to half of them because I can churn through somebody that's real information. I think the more and more as we change into AI, the biggest amount of shift is going to be people are looking for authenticity and realness. And if you can prove realness, then you're going to get the customer over everyone else. And you can do that with LinkedIn messaging. You can prove that in face-to-face networking. And I don't think that this is generated by AI stamp or filtering out AI stamps is going to cut it. Just like people are harvesting data right now so that when quantum comes out, they can hack you. I feel like there's always technology that's one step ahead that's making us think that everything's fake. And I think that now Every time we look, we don't look with wonder. We look with a 'that's fake' filter. And I think that if we can break that 'it's fake' filter, you print money. And so that's what I look to do.

Where would be the best place for people to go if they want to find the real Matthew Pollard to be able to connect and follow with your work? I mean, I feel like we've only just scratched the surface.

Yeah.

Where should we point people?

I appreciate that. So the, the easiest way— I mean, people are definitely welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn. For people, I make this joke from stage all the time. Introverts ask their best questions tomorrow. So if they connect with me today, don't follow me, but connect with me, they can actually send audio messages and actually get direct answers from me. But a lot of the people probably want to— the best first step is probably to create their own version of the China Success Coach, the Rapid Growth Guy. And so I would suggest there's a template that I have. If they go to matthewpollard.com/growth, they'll be able to download that template. And funnily enough, I've done this in groups of like 200 people, and at the end of the session, I'm like, put your hand up if you now have a unified message that you believe will, you know, excite and inspire and a niche of willing to buy people. I'll kind of that you understand, well, you know, see, was the only logical choice. Like 97% of the room put their hands up. The sad part is usually these sessions are only 90 minutes long and I'm like, put your hand up if this is the most time you've actively spent on marketing. I'm sure you'll agree with this. And 85% of the room kept their hands up. So if they go to the matthewpollard.com/growth, that template will really help them. I always recommend that they do the template, get somebody else to listen to this, do the template with someone they know that's not in their industry to get out of their functional skill. And then my publisher is going to hate me when I say this. My networking book does have— I, you know, I would suggest you buy that and it's got a great video implementation training for people. But the sales book, if you just download the first chapter, it gives you the 7 milestones we didn't have a chance to go through today. But if you go through it and literally put what you say in a sale under those 7 milestones, firstly, it'll convince you you can sell as an introvert. But if you put what you say into those milestones, you'll quickly realize there's some things out of order. And so if you fix that order, you'll then realize there's some gaping holes. And that's usually around telling great stories and asking great questions, not just questions for questions' sake. You'll also realize, by the way, there's some things that don't fit and you should absolutely throw that away. You shouldn't be saying it to customers. If you do that, like, people will double their sales in the next 60 days. So I guess the question is, if you've got a lead issue, you know, do the template. If you've got a sales issue and you need to systemize the sales process, which especially if you're spending a lot of money on Facebook ads, that's probably where I would go. You know, download the first chapter of The Introvert's Edge at the theintrovertsedge.com.

I'm curious, Alan, did you have any big takeaways from listening to Matthew?

So many. I think the recurring theme was the use of stories. And I mean, we didn't delve deep into storytelling, but, you know, the use of stories to really short-circuit both in a networking perspective, from a marketing perspective, from a sales perspective, to really get to that croc brain and get to the, to the core of what people feel. Maybe if you've got 30 seconds, do you want to run through storytelling framework Can we do it in 30 seconds?

Gosh, we can try. So the thing that I think that the best thing I can do in 30 seconds is to say it's not a testimonial or case study. Most people think they tell great stories, but they don't. They tell testimonials or case studies. So if you think about a story like a real story, it should be more like the story of how you met your spouse, right? Over time you've iterated, it's become better. It's more like a theatrical masterpiece. Now, a lot of times when I'm telling people about storytelling, they think that it's about saying, oh, we worked with someone that had this problem and we got them a great result. It's like, no, What you've got to do is firstly define the character, right? So if you don't say Microsoft had this problem, you say David, the CTO of this organization, had a problem, and then you show me how it's affecting their life. Because again, you want to show that you see them, right? Most people, even when a salesperson is really good, often walk away feeling like their problem was seen, but they weren't seen. So you want to define the character and you don't just talk about how it affected them at work. Like the best stories are like, you know, and that meant that she missed— he missed her kids' football game or dance recital. And because of that, the parents were, you know, her wife and his wife and child wasn't speaking to him. And you build that pain in. And then the best stories don't say, so then I worked with him and I was amazing. It was on our very first call, he realized, and he went to work doing this stuff. And you give them the credit. People know you were involved. Like, why? It's just an ego thing to say I did this.

And it makes you want them to be the hero.

You want them to be the hero, but you also want the person hearing it to know that you're humble enough to make them the hero because you want them to believe that if you're going to, if they're going to hire you, you're going to make them look like a hero to their spouse or to their boss. Right. So you then make them the hero in the story as they did this, they went and did the work and then they got this amazing result. And then a story always finishes with a moral. So a great moral is, you know, really highlights what the learning was. Now people are like, but the learning's obvious. I don't need to be explicit about that. And I'm like, well, you need to be explicit for two reasons. Like we all grew up differently. We all think differently today because of whether or not we had our morning coffees or not, or, you know, whether or not we had a fight with our spouse or whatever. Our framing is different. And because of that, we have to imply the moral for two reasons. One is to make sure it lands correctly. And the second is so we can end it by saying, does that make sense? And getting them to nod.

Yeah.

And then that then leads to the sale or the conversation about what to do next. Now, please don't sell in the networking room. Worst thing in the world to do. You'll get interrupted. Get it booked into your calendar to have a dialogue. But, and by the way, I don't even go networking to find prospects. By the way, I go networking to find momentum partners and champions, different people that can open doors for me or give my work credibility. But from a storytelling perspective, a true story speaks about the real cost, the opportunity cost, and the emotional cost of the problem through the eyes of the person experiencing it. And then it closes out by saying they did this thing and then they got these results from a real cost and opportunity cost, which is always higher. And the emotional cost perspective, the first two absolutely get somebody to make a decision eventually. The emotional cost and making that person feel better is what gets them to make a decision today. And that's when you lead into tomorrow. It's really not that difficult as long as you stop And what I feel most people do wrong is they apply a testimonials mindset to it. And it's funny when I do this with massive corporations, they try to turn it into a white paper or a case study. When you read them, it's like, wow, they were so lucky to work with you. You're amazing. No one wants to share that. They want to read a story about this company that was humbled and honored to be part of this person's amazing journey where they were the hero. And if it reads like that, then it's a perfect story.

That's awesome. I feel that, Dave, you're my hero. Matthew, you really brought the heat. I appreciate that. What were you about to say?

I was just going to think the moral of this episode. I feel like the moral of this episode is if you're an introvert, you can sell and there's a process to it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that in truth there is a process for everyone for everything. Yes. And that is the thing that I really focus on. It blows my mind that introverts— and don't get me wrong, I didn't know until I knew. Now it blows my mind that introverts don't believe that they can learn these things. And that there isn't a system to everything. Because the truth is, if you don't have a system for everything, you can't iterate, you can't improve. And I mean, mate, that's all over your book, so I don't have to say that.

Thank you so much for your time and coming and sharing your wisdom today. It's been great.

It was my pleasure, mate. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, thanks, mate.

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