Delian Asparouhov & Nadia Asparouhova: Making Relationships Work

Today on Upstream, we are really excited to share the debut episode of a new podcast covering big ideas in the realm of relationships. Our first episode is with Delian and Nadia Asparouhov, a couple who has made their mark on tech. Delian is an investor at Founders Fund and the co founder of Varda Space Industries. And Nadia is a researcher and author. In the conversation ahead, we cover the evolution of their relationship from dating in San Francisco to becoming parents at a relatively young age, and all of the thinking behind how they make their relationship work. It's an incredibly candid conversation and you can subscribe to the show in the links below. In the season ahead, you'll hear from more power couples in tech and leading relationship thinkers like Rob Henderson. Please enjoy.

Well, we've been talking about doing this for years.

Yeah.

So you guys have been teasing me for quite a while, so I'm glad we can finally make this happen. Thank you.

Maybe it was Nadia's idea originally or. No.

If we go far enough back, you have a tweet about doing this somewhere where we talked about it a long time ago.

Oh, right, I remember. Yeah. You and I were just going to do it ourselves at some point and they were like, oh, but then Eric should just interview us. It'll be easy.

There must be a common conversation you guys have. If you go back far enough, there's a tweet.

It's true. It's true.

Other than me, summer 2020 panic deleting.

Zachary's tweets, those tweets might not be there anymore.

So you guys have been together almost six years. Your relationship and marriage has gotten better as you've been together. You have a beautiful baby. What, what have you learned that other, whether it's about partner selection or making your marriage great that other people can.

Learn from make marriage great again.

Now's the time.

You go first. I don't know.

One liners, he said, be my one liners. It's got a slogan. And that's it.

That's all I've got.

I think the main thing that comes to mind for me with how to make marriages great again is just like putting in a lot less, a lot less work on the things I thought I had to do a lot more work on. What has worked really well for us, I think is just sort of like having this baseline level of trust that we have each other's best interests and heart and not trying to over communicate every single thing. And I think a lot of people, a lot of advice you get is about, is always about over communication and always checking in with each other, always asking how things are going, whatever. And I've just found, I think in like, prior relationships, that can backfire sometimes because then you're just, you're kind of looking for things to talk about all the time. And I think what has worked really nicely in our relationship is like, honestly, sometimes you just don't need to bring up every single little thing. And just maybe Diane's laughing, because I am. If everyone is going to bring something up, it's always going to be me.

We actually, like, recently went through this. We're like, we almost never bring things up. But then I think kind of for the fun of it, the other week I brought up an argument that we had at like month six of the relationship, and it was the should I get to keep the money from the mattress?

Oh, my God.

And so it's funny is like, I had. I've never wanted to bring it back up, but I kind of did.

I was going to ask you what you guys fight about. So money under the mattress. Is that really you guys found money on the mattress and you're like, who should keep it?

Well, this is a very darling story. When darling I started dating, we were still, you know, I was living in my apartment, he was living in his house. Diane was just getting things off ground.

With eight sleep maybe like a year into investing.

So he's very, very much an evangelist. Ate slee. He was going to get me an eight sleep mattress, but he never asked if I wanted my own mattress or, you know, my original mattress. He just replaced it without your consent. Without my consent.

She like, definitely, like agreed to. Yeah, having me sleep.

I mean, it wasn't complaining. It's a nice mattress, right? Great mattress. Yeah.

But like, they like to be part.

Of sponsor this podcast.

But then when the time came for us to move in together, then he decided, well, well, part of it is.

That ASLAP at the time had like a professional insulation service. And so two burly men come in and they're like, what do you want to do with your old mattress? Like, you get out of here. And so they take the mattress out of you.

That's actually not what happened.

Okay, well, I wasn't there. What did the two burly mention?

Shared reality is really important.

They didn't really have a choice. Yeah, they just, they took away my mattress. It was left without my original mattress. I only had this nice, fancy, wonderful, upgraded mattress. However, then we moved together and then.

Like three months later, we were moving in together. And so she no longer needed this mattress. And so she was like, well, what should I do with this? And so obviously, like, I pinged a couple of friends that I knew had shown interest in eight sleep before.

I never asked what to do.

Okay. I just knew the mattress was there, and I was like, well, we should, like, make some money off this, so I should, like, sell the mattress. Right. And so I, like, texted a couple friends, and I got a buddy to, like, buy it for, like, 1,000 bucks. Basically. It was, like, way lower than retail, but it was like, whatever. They're, like, getting this mattress that only.

How much money did Nadia get for her original mattress?

0.

0. In fact, Nadia did not even know about this.

She tried to sell it. She had the opportunity. She knew that this mattress was coming.

I would have sold my original mattress. Is a nice. Ma Sold it.

Okay, but you would have. But you didn't for some reason, because someone didn't love.

Anyway, so this is a conflict that came up.

Exactly. And I thought it should be. I think I offered 50. 50. I was like, I should, you know, get.

Well, you never originally offered anything. Let's be clear.

Okay.

Maybe I have some revisionist history.

Well, I felt like I put in all the effort. I got her the mattress.

Yeah.

I found the buyer of the mattress. I felt like I was like, oh, I'm just helping you get rid of the mattress.

Point was, I ever consulted for any of this.

I think I didn't even tell you that I sold. No, that's why. And then, like, it came up later, and I was like, oh, yeah, I got a thousand bucks in the mattress. She was like, you got a thousand bucks from my mattress? That's a thousand bucks. Like, no, it's my thousand bucks.

I really appreciate you sharing some of your biggest conflicts. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So that's an example.

Oh, yeah. Why don't you brought this up of an issue that.

I think I was just having fun that day, and I wanted to bring it up.

Okay, so the lesson is repress everything.

Right. There's, like, a fine line, though, between, like. It's not that I'm saying we shouldn't talk about issues when they come up. It's just, like, a lot of little things that you think you need to talk about. You don't. Or you can just find more constructive ways to express them.

But I think what's the work you can talk about with other people or you.

Are we allowed to talk about how your friends try to revolt from. No, no, we're not allowed to talk about that. Okay. She. They staged an intervention.

On the Delian project.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

We're leaving at that. We can't. If we speak anymore, then it'll have to be cut. But with that level, we're allowed.

There's something about being a long term relationship where I want to aspire to always waking up every day being just like, psyched that I'm next to this person and have that be. That is the baseline. The baseline is you wake up and you're just like, I am thrilled to be with this person. And then once you feel that way and you're kind of leaning into that feeling of just excitement and gratitude, then the. All the other little stuff just doesn't feel that important.

So which is on that. So how do you know whether something is worth bringing up or what is a more constructive way of. Of if. If you're not bring. If you don't bring it up but you actually, like, feel something, how do you deal with that?

I do actually want to mention like a point to the earlier question, although this one is also sort of Val. I think, you know, one of the things that I remember thinking the first, like, you know, three or four months of the relationship was up until then, every person that I dated, I always felt like there was like work that needed to happen for, like the relationship to continue to succeed. And sometimes on my end, sometimes on there, and sometimes it was like the combination of the two, especially in the last couple of relationships before Nadia. And I think a part of it was like a symptom of San Francisco dating culture and the default, like, social and political and economic views of people there. I was just so far off from that. And I felt like I needed to work in order to be a great partner. I feel like I needed to work towards the consensus San Francisco view.

Because they were woke and you were based.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a multitude of dimensions of that. But yes, that is like one of the dimensions. And I felt like with Nadia I was like, oh, I don't need to, like, work on this. I can just like be myself. And she likes me for, like, being myself. And I remember that being like one of the things that, you know, sort of really, you know, sort of struck me, which is, I think related to this point of like, yeah, the, like over communication that I didn't feel like I needed to be like, oh, well, like this thing that, like I said that offended you, which, like, I did offend her a lot in the beginning. A lot. She, like, had a lot in the first three months. And I remember we had a conversation at one point where I was like, I promise, like, you're just going to get, like, used to me.

You're not. Like, I'll change.

Like, like eventually you will cry.

It was true.

I did cry. Yeah. I was like, you'll just become desensitized to these things that I do.

Did you change at all?

No. No.

Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, I think I can't tell that I've changed, but people tell me that I've changed. Which is probably the best version of.

Change is like, you know, all your friends say you're.

Yeah, I don't think I've changed. I feel the exact same. But then you were talking about, like, when did you know? I think this is the thing that we're probably worst at is like, when is something at the level. There are times where it eventually reaches to something that it should be brought up.

Yeah.

And I think we're not very good at that.

Yeah. Of what? Figure out how to figure out, like.

Yeah, like. Like. Yeah, yeah. When it's like we have like, you know, once every five months we have like an extremely important conversation. But it happens over like pillow talk kind of randomly. And mostly, obviously, you end up, you know, mostly it's your shit. Well, no, it's not that it's your shit. Sometimes it's things that I'm doing, obviously. But like, you're the one to be like, this is now at a time where, yeah, it is time to talk about it.

Yeah. I don't. I don't know. I mean, I think everyone has an intuition of like, what are your non negotiables or what are the things where you just like, I need to have this thing done or whatever. And. And there's a time and a place to bring that up. So. Yeah, I don't really have like a clean, perfect answer to it. I just.

Mine early on was that you had to learn how to ski. That was my only knowledge.

All the grudges.

All the grudges.

Which you did do. And I think you felt a lot of pressure too, which is kind of funny. Like, she was like. Because I had told her I was like, my family over Christmas and like holidays, all we do is like, we like ski together. And I remember this. I don't remember the exact conversation. We had some conversation where you're like, I feel like I like, have to.

Look like it's really hard learning how to ski.

It'd be a deal breaker for me.

Yeah.

Very hard. Very hard. And then I learned how to ski. And then Diane kind of stopped skiing that year.

Then, yeah, we moved to Miami and, like, started kitesurfing and stuff. But, yeah, although we'll be. We'll be going skiing in, you know, nine days.

But. So basically what you're saying is a lot of it was handled on the front end because you picked the right partner, basically. So you didn't have a lot of fights that you had.

I think there's like, also just a baseline level of commitment where you just.

Like, you don't really pick right, but you committed.

Yeah, it's, like, brought a lot of.

Security to the rush.

I can't remember if we came up as metaphors. Someone else told us this metaphor when we got married, but it's like, you're. You know, you get married and it's like you're just locked in prison with this person and. Sounds great, but in a good way, though, of, like, you just. You have to figure stuff out when you're in there. And if you take this mentality of, like, I'm in it, I'm here, and there's no other choice, then all the other little stuff falls. Like, I don't think there are a lot of ways in which Diane and I are not the most obvious fits for each other. I mean, with the skiing thing, like, Diane always thought he was going to marry some ski person, professional skier, which I am not. And, you know, like, there are a lot of ways in which we're really different. But I think you just have this mentality of, like, I'm in it, and I'm going to figure it out. And that just brings a lot of simplicity and clarity. And I think a lot of people really, really overthink that part.

Well, let's talk about that. Because, Dylan, it feels like you knew pretty early, like, you were committed pretty early. Like, I remember, you know, Nadia, you were mentioning that Delian was more eager to be committed or be. Say, hey, we're like boyfriend and girlfriend before Nadia was. So talk about, like, when you knew that Nadia was going to be your girl, that Nadia was the one for you, and, like, what was that process like?

I think these are two different sort of questions on, like, the boyfriend, girlfriend thing. I think a part of it maybe is a commitment. Part of it is also just, like, slightly it was the cultural thing of, like, I just have never. Somebody that has, like, you know, I've either had extremely casual relationships where it's like, we don't do dinners, we don't do anything other Than like, like, what's your name?

I don't even know.

Yeah, exactly. Like, definitely, you know, a decent number of those. Or I have, like, a committed girlfriend. That's it. The idea of this, like, you know, San Francisco archetype of, like, over, like, months on end. You're, like, in this state where, like, you know, that the other person is also seeing other people or, like, the poly, like, that is just like, not for me. So the boyfriend, girlfriend thing, I think, was more that where I was like, if we're going to be doing this. Yeah, like, you know, I think it was like three weeks in or two weeks in. I was like, if we want to continue to go on dates, this needs to be, like, a thing. Because I don't do this, like, you know, taking people to dinner if it's not, you know, clearly, you know, sort of committed. Yeah, that's different than, like, the, you know, sort of the one. I don't think that was ever like a, you know, sort of like, you know, sort of one moment, you know, sort of per se. For me, I think, and especially in relation to, like, you know, sort of for. I feel like the guy. It's like the proposal, you know, sort of moment is the, like, you know, solidification of the, you know, sort of one in some ways. And for me, that felt like it was something where, like, it popped into my head, you know, sort of once, and then you sort of don't think about it for a little while, and then it pops in your head again like a month later. And then the next time it's like two weeks later. And then something's like a week later, and then it's like every day. And then at some point you, like, just, you know, sort of, I think, you know, get comfortable. That's how. At least for me, any major decision I feel like I've made, I, like, flirt with the idea, you know, sort of first. But then I know that it's, like, time to make the decision once. Like, you know, I've, like, thought about it and thinking about it basically, like, every single day.

And you workshopped it on Clubhouse.

Oh, and I worked out workshop down on Clubhouse. Yeah, there's like 12,000 people that knew that I was going to propose before Nadia knew. And so they all kept a secret credit to those 12,000 people. But at least for me, the first, like, you know, moment of that was actually very San Francisco story. We got robbed in San Francisco. The cops didn't do anything. I got robbed. I think you were. You weren't living with me yet at the time, cops, of course, you know, sort of don't do anything. I was just like, very, you know, it's just like, it's. It took me some time to come to this realization because you, like, come home, you're like, oh, weird. Like, the house is a little messy and you're like, oh. But like, my, like, laptop that was, like, sitting over there is, like, missing. So I must have, like, misplaced. Anyways, at some point I realized that they stole a bunch of my stuff. And like, one of the things that I was very bummed out about, I was like, I literally had just bought a switch and was like, excited to, like, play on my Switch, etc. And I remember Nadia, like two or three days later, you know, so saw me and like, handed me a switch. And I just remember just like breaking down, crying, being like, thank you so much. Like, you know, this is like, because it breaks your, like, sense of safety, your sense of just like, you know, so there's so many things that like, breaks when, like, somebody's like, violating your place and like, taking all these things. Something about, like, recognizing that and like, you know, replacing the thing that like, you know, I was very.

Yeah.

Sort of frustrated by. It was very, very nice.

That's so sweet.

We'll continue our interview in a moment.

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On the front end was Nadia someone you expected to be your girlfriend? Like what, what, what sort of made it obvious to you like, hey, we should date?

Well, I feel like, you know, as a guy in the Just go. You keep track of like the 12 attractive women that exist in the city and just keep tabs on this. Yeah, keep tabs of like, you know, what they're doing and, you know, how things are going. So anyways, we'd like, you know, sort of met very briefly in like 2012 and she had like, you know, been added to that. At the time the list was like three and she was like the fourth that I added in the list. And over time that list grew to like, you know, sort of 12 over the course of like a decade. And then yeah, at some point like heard through you know, sort of the grapevine that like, you know, she was her single after you start dating somebody for a long time. And so for me at least the first, you know, sort of like, do I take this person on a date? You know, was just, you know, are they on that list of 12? Yeah, I don't Know if there was, like, an obvious, like, moment on, like, the girlfriend thing, I just felt like, yeah, I don't know, maybe. But that was way after the, like, boyfriend girlfriend thing. Yeah.

Nadia, what was your early.

When did you say, I love you for the first time, Nadia? Oh, we're skipping that story. When did I.

Well, this guy Delian comes in your life. Was it obvious to you at first?

No, not at all. Diane is definitely not.

What about it wasn't obvious?

Well, it was just. It was just.

Yeah.

It was just so random. I mean, yeah, we had. We're, like, one of each other's earliest Twitter followers, I think. You know, I. Vaguely. He has such a weird name. Like, I remember it, like, stuck in my head that he was a person I'd met in San Francisco very early on but not really thought about. And I randomly met two of his roommates in the span of a few weeks. And so. And they'd mentioned their other roommate, Delian. I was like, oh, that guy gave me a ride home once. Like, you know, super random. But, yeah, then he had, like, reached out and we met up for the first time, and.

Which. There's always debate about whether or not that was a date.

Yeah, I didn't say it was a date. I just said we met up for the first time. It was ambiguous, and I just heard. Yeah, it was. I just didn't know what to make.

Tell him the burrata story.

Yeah, he ordered this, like, bread. Dalian loves burrata. We were at Tortilla, made a factory and really good bread, and he ordered, like, this toast with the burrata, and he just, like. We were just having, like, a very, like, deep. Like, if you get Dahlian going, he starts talking super frenetically and super fast. He's like, talking really fast. All this, like, weird stuff that you don't usually talk about when you meet someone. And he was just eating this, like, burrata and toast, like, this, and it was, like, spilling out. He's, like, talking really frantically and, like. And I was just like, this guy's, like, cute. He's clearly smart, but, like, I don't totally understand what's going on. They went to, like, a Barry's class afterwards. I was like, I may never see that person again. Like, I don't really know. There's like, a little hurricane that just, like, zipped in and, like, zipped out. But then we did end up going on actual date after that because, I.

Don'T know, like, four days later, five days later. Why'd you say yes?

I. I really? Like weird guys? Like, weird is interesting, right? Weird is intriguing. And so I was intrigued by the weirdness of what were we doing our first date. Was we. Well, the date part is maybe not the important part.

Oh, yeah. But it's helpful context, you know? But then. Then after context, I think it's just.

I don't think we need all that.

Okay, okay. We don't need all the context. Fine.

But something that did endear me to him on this first date. We did a, you know, normal first date thing, but we went back to his place afterwards to go cook dinner.

Because the date place didn't have dinner.

Yes. Yeah, our dinner, our dinner. Restaurant plans fell through. We ended up just buying grocery, and we're like, we're just gonna cook dinner at home. And Dahlian is parking his car in the driveway. And it's like one of these San Francisco houses, like the Victoria Victorians. Yeah. Where you, like, walk up to the top. So I'm staying at the top of the steps. Dalian is parking down below, and I'm waiting for him. And these three people approach me. It's a guy with two children, and they're, like, bounding up the stairs, and they're like, hello. So excited to meet you. And I was like, who are these people? It turns out it's Diane's dad and his two younger siblings who, yeah, we're.

Visiting for the weekend. But I told them, I was like, you guys need to, like, hide and go watch a movie or something so I can take this girl on this date. But then they got home earlier than expected and happened to perfectly run into her in the moment.

You met Dylan's family on her first date?

Yes. And they were all. They were all there.

Yes.

And. Yeah. But it was a very, I think, what kind of flipped for me of, okay, first, like, he's weird, but he's intriguing. Then it was like, okay, we had some fun together. And then. But then I think seeing how close Dylan was with his family was a really endearing thing that you just don't see much of in San Francisco dating especially. I met his mom, like, very soon after that. I think the first time that we, like, started officially dating, she came over. We were, you know, doing a whole ecstasy your thing together. He's just, like, clearly very, very grounded in his. His family. And to me, that was a sign of commitment and someone who's just. Yeah, I don't know. I, I. I find that. I found that just really, really nice.

So I made her do math worksheets.

On her first date, I wasn't allowed to eat dinner until I completed these math problems, and I got them wrong.

Sixth grade math counts.

Come on. I feel like Delian changed your sort of conception of what you were attracted to or what your type was or what would be good for you based on previous people or that you dated or thought you might be attracted to. Like, what did you learn about sort of.

I think it goes back to the prison thing again, of you don't want.

To be in prison with a nerd.

But he was willing to go to prison and other people were.

Maybe a better analogy is, you know, you people have. There are people you can be very close friends with and love, but you don't want them to be your roommates. Right. And it's just like, you don't necessarily want to deal with, like, that kind of stuff together. And I think there's something similar with, like, the prison thing or whatever, but I've definitely date a lot of people where it's, you know, we have all this chemistry and very specific dimensions that are really nice and fun and it's very engaging. But in the end, it's like, if you're getting married, you're having kids, you're raising a family, you're dealing with a lot of practical stuff that is not always glamorous. You need someone who can actually just deal with that with you. And that's a very different way of thinking about relationships. And we don't talk about that very often. I think we usually just talk about the, you know, look for someone who shares your same interests and. Or really generic traits, like smart and funny and.

Or someone who'd be like, the most fun weekend or something.

Yeah.

And I think we're just. And then we think that, oh, if you just have a really fun time with someone and they're smart and funny and they check all the boxes, then eventually just kind of morphs into, you know, a series. But, like, sometimes it doesn't. And so I think, like, having that kind of more top of mind of, like, you know, do I want to be doing all the other stuff that might not look so fun? And in a weird. And in the end, I think finding someone that you genuinely enjoy doing all that stuff with makes it really fun. So, like, I think. I don't know, I have found parenthood with Delhi is like a blast. We're having a great time. Obviously, there are things that are still hard about it, but I feel like even the most mundane things or the most boring things people talk about, if it's someone that you genuinely enjoy doing this stuff with. I mean, you just have a really great time, so.

Yeah.

So it matters.

Delian, on the 20 minute VC podcast, Harry Stubbings, for some reason asked you what's most important in a partner. Sex, Laughter, honesty, or respect. And you chose sex.

Nice.

No, I'm just kidding. You chose honesty.

Oh, okay. I remember. You honestly could have convinced me that I chose sex.

Like whatever your answer was.

You. You ranked them.

Okay. I went honestly, then sex. Yeah, then sex, then sex.

And I think humor was last. Humor, respect, and humor. And Nadia, what's your ranking for you.

What are the. What are the three things?

Sex, laughter, honesty, respect.

And I think I went. I went honesty, sex, respect, and maybe.

And maybe explain your. Your rank.

Let's see. To me, honestly, respect was last.

That's why I was.

So was respect or did I do laughter last year? Maybe. Yeah. Okay. Anyways. Yeah, but it was definitely like at least honesty and sex first. Yeah. I don't think you like that. Respect was like third, basically.

But then you gave me an explanation that made sense.

Yeah, I don't really remember. I think you were something. Yeah, I think you were like, if.

I could be honest with them, then I can develop the other thing.

Yeah, I think it was like, if you don't have honesty, that feels like, you know, sort of base truth where it's just like you need, you know, you know, a common, you know, ground that you're operating from. And then sex just feels like it's just so fundamental that also if you don't have that, the others, like, kind of don't, you know, sort of matter either. And so then it's like in some ways it's not that respect doesn't matter, but it's like you can't really have that without the, like. Well, it's a balance.

Honesty. You're not overly. You're not to your earlier point. You're not over sharing or.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not like a total.

Yeah. Is that what you talk about? Every single detail about each other's lives every single day? Right. It's just like. But of the things that we're communicating to one another, we always know that.

We'Re saying the truth being real with each other? Yeah. I think honesty is definitely the most important one. Or just. It's not even because I want to say communication, but it's not communication again, in the sense of tell every. Tell every single thing you're thinking. It's like this healthy balance of communication where some things are said, some things are implicitly understood and you just.

Just.

You're on the right level with each other. I think being able to. To convey feeling to someone through body language, through intentions, and not always having to over verbalize everything is just really good sign.

Yeah. How do you think about. You guys obviously have shared context, shared knowledge. You're in the same industry. You have, you know, similar friend groups. There's a lot shared, but there's also a lot different. Right. Like, Nadia is very literary, very verbal. Dalian doesn't love to read books to the same degree.

I mean, I still love to read, just not to the same degree. It's hard to read differently. Yeah, I read about war.

Yeah, he does read a lot about war.

You're a spaceman, you know, different. There's definitely some differences there in interest, but also just how you guys sort of process the world. Think about the world. And there are other people of the opposite sex who might be more similar to you. But I'm curious how you think about that balance. How should other people think about sort of similarities and differences and what, like, what's like, the. Right.

I mean, there's obviously people, like, I think about, like, you know, Mateo and Alex from Eat Sleep, where it's like, literally they have the exact same context, and they literally work together for eight hours a day. So I don't think there's any, like, universal, you know, sort of answer here, at least for me. I felt like I just am. So, you know, sort of, you know, work is such a top, you know, sort of priority for me that I felt like in prior relationships where I didn't have some level of, like, shared context and just like, somebody that, like, knew what a series A was going into the relationship, I was like, it's just, I'm such a foreign body and I want to be able to talk this stuff over. And so, you know, no shared context is too difficult for me. But then I also felt like there weren't an infinite number, but the handful of people that I sort of dated or had brief flings with that were like, literally another VC or another founder. I was like, oh, my God, I might as well just stay at the office all day. This is just like, literally the exact same thing. And so that just feels wrong, too. So it's not that I don't think it was, like, explicitly searching for it when I was like, like, you know, looking for a partner or anything like that, but once in it, I was like, oh, my God, this is like the perfect amount of context. You sort of overlap to have where, like, you know, I feel like I'm learning a lot about things from her, she's learning about things from me. But also we, like, have this, like, shared network and understanding of, you know, technology, Silicon Valley, etc. And so, you know, we're not like, trying to explain the basics to one another.

Yeah, yeah, I share that sentiment. I think from my end, I also just didn't realize how wonderful it would be to date someone. That's very grounding.

Yeah.

I spend a lot of time in my head all day and a lot of time with very abstract topics. And I think if I were to spend my life with someone else who's similar, for me personally, at least, I think we would just sort of end up being in our own worlds forever. And yeah, we had this early thing of the. You were like the Super Soaker. Is that like an.

Oh, yeah, it's an XKCD comic where it's like. I think it's called, like, existential or something. But it's like, oh, she's like. She's going into an existential cris. Getting like, quick, get the Super Soaker. It's like you pop him up and spray him with the Super Soaker to like, bring him back to reality.

That's very much what our early relationship was like.

Yeah, I remember especially, like, early on she was still working on her first. First book. And, you know, that's even like, you know, sometimes when you're in your research mode, you're at least like, still talking to people. On those days, like, she like, literally, like, you know, would go days at a time without like, talking to anybody and just like, you know, literally writing all day. And so I would come home and she would, like, look at me and literally just be like, non verbal, like, just like, forget how to speak. And I'd be like, do you remember English Lady?

Okay, it wasn't that bad.

It was pretty bad. And so there's definitely some amount of the, you know, you gotta come back into the, you know, sort of real world. And then for me, I think I feel like a part of what I like is, you know, I come from, like, a family of academics and then I aspire to, I think, you know, I also really like sort of writing. I really like reading. I feel like I'm in this, you know, phase in my life where I don't get to do that as much. But it's not something that, like, I never want to go back to or something. Like, I definitely would like to return To a life that involves more reading and more writing, more philosophizing relative to like, today feels very. I need to like, you know.

Right.

Turn the crank. And so I feel like Nadia reminds me how beautiful that, you know, sort of world is. And I get to somewhat, you know, get to tap into it, you know, sort of with.

With vicariously.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll say. I. Yeah, definitely. The advice I give to a lot of friends who are looking for partners is it's. You're not. I just. I don't think if I had made a list of criteria of this is what I think I want. And you're often. It's often very surprising who you end up with. But those are, I think, some of the best, best relationships.

So when. When people in your friend groups or people, you know, when you see that they pick the wrong partner, like, why does that usually happen? Or like, what is the sort of mistake that you see people make or not fully appreciate when usually they pick.

Something to like them back to this like, respect and communication thing.

And commitment.

And commitment.

Like, it's like when somebody's like three years in and it's not obvious like one of or both people are not like, fully committed to one of them. Like, what the are you doing? Like, why are you still in this thing? We're clearly three years in. There's like wavering on one side or on both sides. It's like this just like, is not the security.

How long did it take for you to know? Was it like six months, three?

I'm like, they're like wavering.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not. Let's see. Was there like an immediate moment? I still kind of go back to.

Like, well, you moved in together. I mean.

Yeah, yeah, six months. But I could also see a world where, like, you know, if like, we lived in a. The city where, like, housing costs were like 3x lower, like there was definitely a component of it that was like. It was just like annoying ubering back and forth, etc. But if we lived in like, Kansas City, who knows, maybe, like, it would have been, you know, a little bit later. I don't know. I feel like it's like, like the proposal thing's always like the easiest thing to like, you know, should point to. Because obviously, like, by then, yes, and then obviously no. When we like, literally went on our first date.

Right.

The transition, I don't think was like a binary.

A year and a half, I want to say.

But yeah. What separated Delian for. For you, Nadia, based on other people, you've dated in the past was just the sort of level of commitment, right?

Yeah, commitment. And. And then communication. Yeah. And seriousness goes a long way, I think. Yeah.

And the communication. You mean the not over communication, or you mean the.

No, no, I need a better term for this. But, yeah, just being. Being direct. Like, I never worry that Diane is keeping a thought in his head that he's not telling.

Oh, yeah. I was, like, frustrated by things early on in the relationship, but I would just tell her, like, this can't happen. Like, I don't. Like, I don't want to date somebody that does this. So, like, if this is a thing you want to do, yeah, go for it. But, like, it's not going to be, like, with me.

Realize it was actually just such a huge relief to be, like, including, like.

The boyfriend girlfriend thing. I was like, I get. You're coming from this San Francisco world where, like, things are vague. That is not what I do. And so if you want this thing to continue, it, like, has to be concrete. And, like, you know, I think I literally basically, like, set a deadline effectively where I was like. I think it was. It was actually like the Easter, like, brunch with my mom. Whereas, like, maybe three or four weeks into dating, and I was like, you can come to the brunch, but, like, only if I'm presenting you as my girlfriend. Otherwise, you're not coming to the brunch, obviously.

Right. Yeah. It is interesting. Sometimes in a relationship, some, there's one person who's, like, has more thoughts about the relationship or more concerns, and maybe they just need to calibrate so that it's not like, you know, one person is always. Is that kind of what happens here? A little bit? Like, if Darling has a thought, he shares it. But you tend to have more thoughts on this kind of thing, so you're, like, more discerning as to what you share.

I think I. I share. I think. Yeah. I don't feel like I keep things enough. I think I learned. I really did learn a lot from being with Dalian in that, like, he was so candid and so direct that it felt like it gave me the space to. Well, if he's super direct, then I could be super direct, too. And it was just such a relief because we never. I just feel like we're never harboring. I never, ever worry that, oh, he's just sitting there being resentful about something. It's like, if he's mad about something, he'll know it and vice versa.

So it's just that discernment when something is truly worth bringing up. Basically.

Yeah, yeah. It's like picking because I think it's again, if you're trying to reach this, if the bar is that you're like day to day should just be awesome with this person all the time. And it's like, okay, do you really awesome.

But it doesn't have to be perfect. And I think too many people are like trying to overanalyze and dig into like it's not that Nadia and I's like, you know, interactions on a day by day basis are like perfectly seamless all the time. It's like, yeah, if we're like underslept or stressed out or we like just came off a six hour flight or like, you know, things are going. It's like, yeah, it's not always perfect. Like she'll snap at me or I'll yell, you know, get mad or like, you know, there's things that happen but it's like, like it's not like we go and like perfectly overanalyze. Oh, like why did that happen? How do we prevent this from happening in the future? It's like, no. But like you also want to make sure that like at the end of the day you felt like it was an awesome experience. Right. Even if there's like minor perturbations all throughout, don't like sit there and like overanalyze the perturbation. And I feel like that's also something that I've like had to. I think it's been a lot easier to learn being married to somebody for like such an extended period of time where there were times early on where I'd be like, oh shit. Like, you know, Nadia clearly was like super mad about this thing, etc. And like I need to think about this because I also like would have these girlfriends in San Francisco that would like like. Yeah. Want things to be perfect and overanalyze etc and then we would like have these like six hour long discussions about like a thing that I did like two Sundays prior.

Yeah.

I felt like that wasn't the case with Nadia because then like it would just be like. Yeah, like she was kind of in a bad mood that day and I said some stupid things and we don't need to like go back and like think about that non stop.

It's like the ability to let go and move on.

Yeah, yeah.

Just trying to get better at stuff.

Exactly.

And so you're. The way you guys bounce back when you snap or something is just like, sorry. And Just, like, move on. Basically, like, short memories.

Like, yeah, we'll acknowledge it. Sometimes, like, later in the day, we're just like. We're calm. Just like, oh, man, I can't believe. Like, like, yeah. Be able to laugh at yourself a little bit. And also. Yeah. Sometimes recognize there are times when one of us might snap at the other. But it's. You know, look at the context of maybe this person's tired or they're stressed or whatever, and it's, like, really starting to get to know the other person where you're understanding them in this very detailed way so that it doesn't just feel like, oh, you got mad at me, and now I'm gonna call the getting mad at me police and issue you a violation. It's like, he's a human being, and sometimes he gets tired and vice versa. And. Yeah, just be able to, like, get past that.

Yeah, often. I've definitely succumbed to this, too. There's this sort of desire to be like, how can this never happen again? Like, we need to have, like, a system. Yeah, you're just.

I think it's, like, totally unrealistic. It's like, yeah, of course. It's just like, you know, like, in the grand scheme of the trade of the world.

Right.

Do you still feel awesome about this relationship? It's not to say that, like, it's going to have, like, zero blemishes.

It's not to say that you shouldn't accept it happening all the time or something, but within reason. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And so what do you guys fight about? Or when you. I wonder if parenting has brought up new challenges.

I think it's always varied. I don't think there's any. I think if there was one consistent theme over and over and over again, I feel like that would sort of make it not work as much. I mean, I think two of the more sort of recent ones. The first one, I know you're gonna be comfortable with. The second one, maybe we can cut out or whatever. But the first one is just, like, travel schedule and balancing child care stuff. Like, I think, you know, that especially this fall, like, you know, sort of got to a place that just, like, clearly didn't, you know, sort of feel sustainable. So that was one of the more, you know, sort of recent ones. And obviously, you know, doing some life adjustments to, you know, sort of change that.

That's what I'm gonna say.

Just.

I think parenting just brings up a lot of really boring, treacherous logistics. Stuff you have to deal with now. Like, I remember feeling this moment of panic when we had a kid and then realizing, oh my gosh, like, my schedule is now perfectly tied to this other like, Taedalian schedule where one of us needs to be taken care, you know, so in the evenings, it's, it's not. I think we both, we, we had a pretty independent relationship and we still do in a lot of ways where it's not like we're spending every evening side by side doing things together or whatever. We often do separate.

Her mom finds it so funny that we'll both order our own delivery, you know, sort of food from separate places and then have dinner completely separately. There's no discussion.

People often, I think, don't know as well. But like, I don't know. Yeah, you like your downtime. You like your, your, your. You spend a lot of time with people, but you also enjoy just like, heads down a little bit at home. And I'm. I'm always down to be alone, so. So yeah, I think we, we definitely have our own space and our own independent schedules. But when you have a kid, it's not like, oh, I'm going to go off and do this thing this weekend and I'll see you later. It's, well, if I'm leaving then someone else needs to be here. And that was scary at first of just, just now we have to coordinate everything. I don't know if I would call it a fight or anything. I would just say, like, it just.

The travel one was more of the. Yeah. Sort of fight.

I don't even call it a fight, though. It's just more like functionally, it's really hard. Like there's.

You were mad at me.

How do you deal with sort of divide and conquer equality? I remember you telling me something along the lines of like, you had to accept that not everything's going to be equal all the time. Like, Dylan's not going to be like the cleanest or, you know, person in.

The world or something, just a dirty.

Dirty man over here or do the most housework. Dirty old grandpa.

Well, these are some of the things that would just.

I can't wait for that.

Some things that. Oh, just letting go of things. I mean, yeah, one thing. When we moved in together, dying is very messy, incredibly messy, adorably messy, but like very messy. And I'm not a clean freak, but I'm definitely tidy. I'm not, I'm not like, you know, whatever. I'm definitely. Yeah, but, you know, I'm just a normal person.

You've got standards.

Yeah, I have Standards. And that's the kind of thing where you have to decide, you know, am I going to be miserable if I. If I like this person, I want to live with them. It's either. It has to be a complete deal breaker, we're not going to. We can't date anymore because we can't live together, or I'm going to be running around picking up after him all the time. That would be very annoying. Or just, you know, you sort of accept on both sides. There are some things where Diane knows to, like, pick up after himself, and some things where, like, sometimes the mess that's out there and if I had my way, I would love to pick it up and clean it. But it's. People have different personalities and, you know, it just decided. Just doesn't. It really just doesn't matter that much in the end. And I'm just harmonious about it, you know, you're hormonal.

You said, I'm scared.

Yes.

How do you guys deal with that? I'm scared.

Wood.

I'm just kidding.

I think parenting introduces a lot of logistics, and it's very easy to then just have your life be logistics and coordinating. And that also takes the joy out of a relationship really fast. And I think being cognizant of. I try to at least be aware of, you know, let's make sure we're not constantly talking about the baby in logistics. And there are other things that we can, you know, really being active and looking for those moments of joy and other ways to connect, because I think that that can be a place where it starts to really impact someone's relationship, where suddenly you. You get a year in or something, you realize all we ever do is talk logistics, and we never do anything right. Joyful for ourselves.

Dylan, you've talked about how young men should have kids sooner than they think. Say more about that.

Yeah, but meaning to. I was actually meaning to sort of write something now that my son's a year old. Not that I have, like, some super strong perspective on, like, parenthood yet, given that. Obviously, you know, I sort of have a long path ahead of me, but I'd been thinking about it in relation to seeing other people who have had kids at different stages of life. And I think one thing that I've really appreciated over the past year is it's obviously been the most joyful year for me as a father and getting to experience this wonderful human being that I hope I get to have in my life for as long as I live. And at the same time, it was also a year there was amongst the most stressful and biggest inflection points for me sort of professionally when my son was born. The Varda, the office that we're currently in, the Varda capsule, was still in space when he was whatever two and a half months old was when we were going through our first reentry. There was so much that was so important for me professionally over the past year. But what I really appreciated was that I felt like I was like, my career is growing at the same time that he is growing. And so it kind of feels like it's in tandem where I think I do my best to really prioritize spending time with him. I try to come home for dinner every single night. I try to spend whenever I'm in the same city as him and when I'm traveling, spend as much time as I sort of possibly can. At the same time, I also have two jobs that are sort of highly ambitious and I also spend a lot of time sort of working on those. And I feel like being in this world where everything ultimately comes as a trade off feels in some ways like a healthy sort of balance versus I feel like when I see people, and this isn't everyone, but when I see people think about only having kids once they're, you know, sort of past the peak of their career, you get into this weird dynamic where like, the kid is growing, but your career is sort of like not falling per se, but like you're, you're, you're no longer in this like, super intense, you sort of grind mode. And then I feel like I see them get into this like, sort of guilt where it's like, well, now you're wealthy enough that you can just go home at like 2pm and spend the next, you know, sort of five hours with him when they're like two years old. And I'm not saying that has like, you know, zero value for the kid or anything, but you get into this weird state where it just feels like things are sort of decoupled from one another where like, the kids life stages and your life stages no longer really seemed online. And so I feel like this is a thing that people get really wrong where they really think about, oh, like, you know, I don't want to have kids until I'm older when, like, I can just use like, you know, wealth, et cetera, to make it a lot easier and I can spend more time with them. And I'm like, no. Part of the joy of being like a, you know, sort of father is that you get to grow at the same time as your kid is growing. So you can't have someone to like, parallel, you know, sort of experiences. And if you get too decoupled from that, I think, you know, you just don't have that, that same connection with your kid. And then I think there's, there's a part of it that is also, you know, people underappreciate how important also like the grandparent experience is. And for each year that you delay, you know, basically having a kid, you know, if your kid has the same has kids at the same age as you, you're delaying grandparents by like two years. So, you know, if you're, you know, 30, when you have your first kid, hopefully your sort of grandparents, you know, when you're 60, if you wait till 35, 70, if you wait till 40, 80, at some point you're like really limiting the amount of like healthy years you have with your, you know, sort of grandparents, with your grandkids. One thing that about, you know, sort of our son is he currently has multiple great grandparents alive that like get to interact with him and have rich, you know, sort of feeling. Great grandparents, great grandparents, multiple of them. He also obviously has a multitude of grandparents that are all quite young, energetic, healthy, etc. And part of that is because my parents had kids when they were young. I had kids again, relatively, you know, sort of young, quote unquote, you know, 30, you know, obviously in certain cultures is young, certain cultures is old. And so I feel like there's a part of it that is that where it's like, man, you're really depriving both your parents from the grandparent experience with your kids. But then also you're depriving your future self from the grandparent experience by sort of waiting too late. And so there's all these things that I feel like society has gotten perverted in particular over the past decade and especially in like right wing red pill manosphere, Andrew Tate, those sort of type sort of culture that I just think really does you discredit for what the purpose of life is and some of the most joyous aspects you have of life that you completely end up missing out on.

Right? Well, yeah, it's another thing for some people. They're cautious because they saw their parents get divorced or, you know, maybe not have the right partner.

My parents got divorced. You know what I mean? Where it's like, yeah, it's like, okay, if that's like the worst case outcome, they still had like, you know, 18 years of marriage together, three kids, like, they still have a really strong, you know, sort of familial bond where it's like, look, do my parents love each other, you know, anymore? Can they even, like, really tolerate each other? Not really that much, but, like, we'll still get together as a full family, and, like, yeah, they're not gonna, like, sit next to each other at the dinner table, but, like, we still get to have, like, the full family together. And to me, it's like, that's the downside case of, like, if you choose the, you know, sort of wrong partner, it's like, it's a pretty damn good upside case. We're all to, like, you know, you. You don't even get to be alive for your grandkids. You know what I mean? Like, you know, if I had to sort of choose between those two extremes. So, yeah, I do think, you know, there's a part of me that, like, I felt like I grew up with this, like, you know, sort of expectation that, yeah, kids were an incredibly important part of, you know, so growing up and being an adult. It wasn't that you, like, became a super old adult and then had kids. It was like a part of becoming an adult was, you know, sort of having the kids and stuff. Like, I was in this state where, like, I kind of, you know, sort of dated people from, like, like 16 to 21 or so. And then at some point I was like, I don't want to keep doing that, where I'm, like, experimenting whoever the next person is that, like, I'm going to, like, seriously, you know, sort of date for an extended period of time. I want this to be the person, like, I actually, you know, have kids with. And so I, like, raised the bar to the level where I was like, yeah, there are people that I enjoy, you know, having short flings with, but I always made it very clear with them, was like, you are not, you know, at the level or what, what I want for somebody that I'm marrying. So this is never going to become, you know, sort of thing. Especially because I care a lot about that. Like, you know, sort of, you know, if you're gonna take somebody on dates, they should be, you know, sort of your girlfriend.

At the same time, you also think that we shouldn't or you both think that we shouldn't pressure or add to the pressure that women have to have kids early, right?

Yeah. I mean, I just think there's a very wide gap between what we're talking about when we're saying, prioritize kids. You know, I Feel like the conversation turns into, should you have kids when you're 22 versus 42? And it's like, there's a huge range in between. And I think, like, yeah, I mean, my side of it is having kids. I'm not gonna lie. Like, it really does change the amount of free time that you have. And a lot of that work statistically, historically, just factually, it falls on women for many, many reasons. Some of them are just physical reasons. Pregnancy is a thing that, you know, the woman is doing that. Also, a lot of childcare falls on women and. And it really changes your life. I don't have the same amount of free time I used to. I've had to make some pretty tough trade offs this past year because I just don't have. I don't have the headspace that I used to. So there are sacrifices involved. And I think, yeah, I just, I think for. On the women's side, like, it does make sense to spend a little bit of time figuring out what you like living life. I think women are also just, maybe not all women, but for me, like, I was not ready to have kids when I was, let's even say like 25 and stuff. Maybe some women are. That's great for them. For me, like, I had a lot of just soul searching, finding myself to do. I think a lot of women are, like, just more emotionally.

Mature.

I was gonna say. I'm trying to find the right phraser, but it's, you know, I think just a lot more emotionally expressive. And that comes in good and bad ways. Right. Like, we know that, like, teenage girls, for example, are much more susceptible to social media than boys are. And I think part of it is you're just like, you know, you're a lot more just in your head and in tune with your emotions. And sometimes that means you're hyper aware of things that you're. You aren't always. And so for me at least, I felt like I needed some time to just, like, figure out who I am. And then I felt ready. And now that I'm having kids, it's like I have zero regrets for. I feel like I had a really, really full life before my. Before my kids. And now I can shift my priorities a little bit and focus. But yeah, I think, like, we can't ignore the fact that it's true. And it's. I think for millennial women like me, we were all kind of raised being told, you can do it all. And as soon as I had kids, I realized that's. I mean, I already kind of suspected it before, but you really, really feel it. It's just, you know, I don't have evenings and weekends anymore to work, so. Yeah, it's there. There are trade offs. I think the trade offs are all super, super worth it. It's also been the best, best year of my life.