BFC #007 - How to go from being a Freelance Video Curator to an Agency Owner with Doug Suiter

You're listening to the Business for Creators podcast, where each week we uncover the secrets to balancing creativity and business all in the one place. With your host, me, Dan Lenny.

G', day, folks, and welcome to this episode of the Business for Creatives podcast. This week, I have Doug Sutter with me. Now, Doug is the owner of your film. He's the creator of FCP Talent. He is a video editor, a Final Cut Pro X specialist, previously a broadcast promo producer, entrepreneur who can't spell his words. Not mine, lover of podcasts, and a Catman. Douglas, great to have you on the show.

That sounds like a bio that I wrote after way too many coffees, which I've also had today. And thank you. It's great to be here, Dan.

Well, so a bit of background. Doug and I used to share space, well, in the same office at WeWork in Piermont. And during that time, we were the only two video production companies in that building. And then Doug moved on to bigger and greater things, but we've remained in touch and exciting to have you on the show.

Oh, mate, I'm excited to be here. It's like I'm back at WeWork. This is like the old days. I love it.

It's great, isn't it? So, listen, let's just start with a little bit about you, because this is really all about you today. So give us a bit of background beyond what I've just said about you, what you're doing today. And, yeah, just tell us a bit about the business that you run.

Well, the business that I run, it's. Look, it's got a great little backstory. So I come from a broadcast video background initially. Like, I spent quite a few years in promo production, which is basically those television commercials that you see that are for anything except a product. So they're for the programs themselves. And you'll know them because they always say, like, coming up next or next week on blah, blah, blah. Right? Great little creative job. Taught me a lot of broad skills. And after that, I became a bit of a freelancer. So editing was always kind of my thing. I was most interested in that side of things. And I became a freelancer, but it just happened on the side. People would ask me, hey, do you know any editors or somebody can do that? I know you're busy. And I just started a, you know, an Excel spreadsheet, if you like, just of people that I could kind of go to. And then that became a website, and then that became FCP Talent. And.

So I was still doing freelance stuff as well, as doing this FCP talent thing on the side, which it was growing like a. Like a veggie patch, you know what I mean? Like, you couldn't live off it, but, you know, every now and then you get a little tomato or something.

And then. Still doing the freelance stuff. One day, one of my clients, I remember, we got to. We'd done a few jobs together. I got to the end of one of the jobs and I said, look, Caroline, the job's done. But look, damn, if we'd done this, it could have been better. And if we'd done that, it could have been cheaper. And I think I said it one too many times. And she said to me, look, I don't know anything about video. I just know how to sell things. And I said, oh, I don't know how to sell things. I do know quite a bit about video. So we went to the pub, had some beers, and next thing you know, we're in business together. So now we run.

Your film and FCP Talent, which is probably by the time this podcast comes out, is going to be known as your crew. So your film on one side, your crew on the other, and we're a production company and a. I don't. I don't really like the word agency, but for want of a better word, an agency.

What's really interesting is that, you know, this podcast is all about the marriage of commerce and creativity. And you mentioned there that, you know, Caroline wasn't so into the kind of creative doing the thing she's really good at. Selling, you're great at creativity. That seems like a perfect marriage to me.

That's it. It's Lennon McCartney. And I. You know, there's certain things in my life that, you know, you work hard and then you need to be lucky. And I've just been big time lucky in a few key, pivotal moments of my life. And meeting Caroline was definitely one of those. Like, every now and then we just. We kind of look at each other and sort of stand back and look down the ladder at how far we've come and what we've achieved. And we just. I think the word grateful keeps on coming up, you know, like, just grateful that we cross paths. Grateful that we click so well together. So, yeah. Yeah.

Well, you know, you are a great team. And I think what's. Having watched you operate together.

It'S great to watch because I think for any real creative success story, there needs to be someone doing the business, and there seems to be someone doing the creative, and then the two need to get on really well. And that seems to me like the most exciting thing about what you guys have created.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, I've, you know, I've got an interest in comedy and I remember reading a book or listening to an interview or something. It was a team of comedy writers. And this always stuck with me is that one of them. One of them has mentioned that, you know, you're in a good team of comedy writers when. When the two of you can. One of them, you know, one will say a joke or come up with some sort of a line, and the other one will laugh and then you'll double over laughing because it was so funny. And, yeah, that's a great line. And then the other one will say, yep, can't use. It doesn't fit. Move on. You know what I mean? Like, it's.

You. When you. When you're that accepting and that comfortable with each other. Yeah, it gets. It gets really powerful and I can't take credit for it is the thing, you know, like, you know, right place, right time, I think. But I had a partnership, a business partnership before Caroline, many, many years ago. And I made what I consider to be probably a very common mistake, which is, you know, you find somebody who's into what you're into and, you know, we had precisely aligned skill sets. And that is exactly why it didn't work.

Yeah. So talking a bit more about your backstory, because, I mean, the bio that we'll have on the website, you've done a lot of different things. Tell us a bit about your career journey.

Okay, look, I always just did what spins my jets, you know what I mean? Like, I was always driven by that kind of what I'm excited by. I mean, even that alone is actually quite a lucky position to be in, I think. Or precarious, I guess what happened was I started in the film business, if you want to call it that. I went to university and I did like a media degree, moved from Perth to Sydney and got a job in a cinema as a projectionist. How's that for my first gig.

When they just feature films and things like that. And it was there that I met is another guy who was also from Perth, and we were projectionists together. And we kind of go, hey, you know, I'm really into this. I was into editing. He loved the idea of filmmaking. And I remember he went and bought an imac and I went and bought a camcorder. And we thought, well, we'll go on it, you know, we'll go into business. And that is exactly how it started. So we just sort of went out and did it and was doing it for fun. And I remember one day.

There was a job advertised like literally in the paper for this retail production company, you know, that would make really bad late night television commercials. But it was a, an editor job. And I applied for it and they didn't respond. I was a little antsy. And I remember I just went there and just sat in the foyer and I said, I'm not leaving until somebody comes and sees me.

Tenacity. I mean, you just, you've got it, you've got to be persistent, haven't you, in this industry?

Yeah. So that was cool. Like it's on a really funny moment now. I'm 42, so that was back then. I was like 20, something like that. And now I get to see it from the other side. Like if anybody came into that at my business, I'd be like, okay, you get a meeting. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's definitely. That was one of the things I look back and I go, it was a key moment. And I just love the fact that the guys that own the business recognize that as well. And so anyway, I was there for a couple of years and then one day there was a broadcast job. So I made a sort of step from there into. I went to work for a company called Channel V, which is now defunct because, you know, music videos, that's what they did. And now there's YouTube and everything changes. And that's when I started working in promos, which I think I was probably perfect for. I was like this sort of creative, really into the editing side of things, which is the kitchen. That's where it all comes together. And it was short form and I have a terrible attention span. So making 30 second spots is like perfect for me. So I did that at Channel V and really enjoyed it and moved on to Disney Channel. Spent some time there, went to London, spent some time. And by that time I was teaching as well. Like sort of passing on. When I was, you know, every time my teaching sort of giggle training came up, I did that. So one thing led to another. Next thing you know, I was helping Technicolor in London transition from Abbott to Final Cut. And yeah, I became the Final Cut guy when it was in its prime.

Fantastic. So was that, was that a turning point for you? What, what happened from being employed? And you know, I'm always fascinated by that journey. What, what was it that took you from the call it. The perceived Security of full time employment to start gig.

I didn't perceive it as security, I perceived it as a trap that was. I think there's probably a lot of people out there with that kind of mindset. Yeah, I think I. The things that I do are usually because I can't imagine not doing them. So for example, I did was kind of obsessed a bit with stand up comedy for a while. Like when I was younger, like getting up and doing stand up, like I just, I got into that thinking that the reason I did was because I couldn't handle being in the audience. That was unacceptable. If somebody else was up there telling jokes, I just did not belong in the audience. In a very similar way, you know, I couldn't appreciate anybody else's business nowadays. I kind of see that as almost like a failure of perception. I've got to go the long way, I've got to learn. So I don't understand, I guess the beauty of a business I can't appreciate from the outside. I kind of have to be inside making it for myself. Let me make sure that my phone is on do not disturb.

We should, I should add my fault. I should have said that from the start.

But no worries.

You being a TV man, I thought I didn't need to mention that.

Yeah.

So what point did you decide, you know, I'm going to do this like properly as a freelancer. What was that journey like? Were you fired from somewhere? Where did you made London? Or was it just like, I just want to do this on my own.

It was just I wanted to do on my own. Years later I read a book called E Myth, which very famous. Have you read it?

Michael Garber?

Yes. Oh, okay. I'm bad with names, I couldn't have told you that. But they described the idea of the. Can you help me out? This phrase, it's a like a fit of like a technician who has an entrepreneurial seizure.

So most, most of us, most of us are technicians, we're cameramen, we're editors, we become business owners where we, what we essentially do is go from having one job and being paid quite well to having four or five jobs not being paid very well at all. But at least we get to call ourselves an entrepreneur.

Yeah, right, exactly. And his insight was so good about, you know, you're good at what you do and so you think, oh, why am I working for this boss person? You know, I could, I could be doing that. We're having absolutely no respect for the art of business. It's a completely separate thing from what you're actually good at. And, wow, that spoke absolutely directly to me.

It's a book that's, I think, spoken to many of us. So what is the transition point? So you start a business with Caroline. You have FCP talent, taking along on the side.

What's the point at which you go, I've got to break this E myth mentality now and actually start systemizing my business?

Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Right.

So, you know, run it like a business, not just as me working 15 hours a day.

Yep. Okay, great. So, you know, as a freelance and as, you know, somebody who does it from a point of, like I say, spins your passion point, what you do is so tied up with your personality, your identity, you know, it's like, that's what I do. I'm. You know, and it becomes overwhelming. I've heard you talk about this idea of a tipping point, which you just can't do it anymore. That definitely happened. And it was well into my working relationship with Caroline, and I remember things were getting very overwhelming. Another word you hear all the time when it comes to these sorts of things. One night, I sat down in front of YouTube. I was watching YouTube on my television because I don't have an aerial.

And.

There was this thing that came up, and I didn't even need to watch the video. I just saw the title, and I went, oh, my God. And it just. Everything just collapsed inside me like dominoes. And the title of the video was, don't set goals, set systems. I don't know if I took the message that the video was about, because I never watched it. I just. I just went, I don't need to watch it. I know exactly what that means. And from that point, I spent about three months becoming absolutely obsessed with systems. I just. It was. See, I don't need to be happy. I say this all the time. I just need hope. I just need to know that I'm going in the right direction. That is my happiness. There's no getting there. And I was absolutely buzzed. I was like. It was like switching on a light. I can't exactly see how this works, because there's a certain point in which what you do and what you promise and you're at capacity, and you begin to despair. And so systems became, to me, a key.

Not just a key, but not just a life raft, but a.

Motor on the back of my boat. I'm like, oh, this changes everything. So thinking in terms of systems. Yeah. I've never.

Systems, set you free.

Systems set you free.

And I think, what Happens is as creatives, we think, oh, if I get too rigid, I can't be creative. That's it. The opposite is actually true.

It is. It is. Okay, so let me tell you about this. So I got. And I have a bad habit of this. Like, once I take something on board, usually I'll take it to a complete extreme, and then I have to kind of reel it back in. That's another reason Caroline's good. She'll come talk me down.

But when I was in this.

Time of sort of realizing the power of systems and processes, I struck upon an analogy. I realized that what I was trying to do was running apps with no os. Okay? So if you think about, you know, everybody does what we does. Everybody works computers now. So you're a computer which is like the metal and the wires and the electricity, and then you've got the apps, and, you know, that's whatever you're editing. Nle or whatever. But then you've got this system underneath this. I mean, it's right there in the name. It's an operating system. And I realized that I didn't have an operating system for my business. So, you know, we nowadays, we like to think of your film as. And your crew as a systems operation that happens to make video. There's no reason it couldn't be your whatever. So we decided based on what I kind of jokingly, half jokingly call your os. So that's what we refer to now as the systems that underlie the veneer, which is the products that we produce. And I think that getting that right is exactly what you're talking about. It's the thing that lubricates your creativity so that you're not fighting the battles that are unnecessary because the. What I call the wiggliness of life will always be there. And having an operating system doesn't destroy that, doesn't negate it. It just means that you fight the battles that are worthy of fighting, that, you know, you have the creative struggle. You don't waste your time doing things like, where did I put this? Oh, no, where's that? You know, you got an OS for that.

I think also, you know, having. Having embraced systems myself in the last sort of year or so, they remove the uncertainty from the process. When you edit a film, the common question I am asked by editors or production companies is, but how can I systemize my editing? Because I edit in a certain way.

Everything can be systemized. And when things are systemized, there's more clarity and there's less interpretation of the system, therefore you become more effective. Can you tell us a bit more about how that's helped you and your business? Because you hire a lot of freelancers, you have a lot of different projects coming on the go at the same time. You're not physically doing them all, are you?

I'm doing a lot of them, but less of them. And you know, I'm always thinking, you know, what about this is, you know, truly wiggly or creative? And what about this can be systematized? So.

It always helps to have like a completely fresh set of eyes when you're looking at what you're doing. You know, often we're just so used to doing things in a certain way. Like, you know, graphics would always come toward the end of the process. You know, motion graphics. I remember a few weeks back I had a bit of an epiphany when I thought, wait a second, we go out and we do a shoot. Surely there's some elements of these graphics which can be treated like a shoot. So we'll get the graphics guy onto it really early in the process to create preliminary graphics, just transitions, wipe elements, whatever, as if he was out on a shoot. And then I incorporated them into the edit. So there's that. There's kind of the inverting of what you would consider a traditional workflow and then also looking at distributing the bits that can be more easily distributed. So it is absolutely pointless for me to begin an edit. I'm definitely there at that point. There's no reason that I should be doing that. So things like bringing in footage and creating favorites, sub clipping, all that kind of stuff is things that can easily get distributed and put out. Maybe things like there's certain things in the videos we make. We know we're always going to need like, you know, we're always going to need a few seconds of montage. You know, cut to this montage, cut to that montage. Why am I putting those montages together at the last second? We can do that now for videos that we're going to be making in three months time. So now somebody's just, that's their job. Make montages, make 30 second montages that can be pre done. Yeah, that kind of thing.

And how else have systems benefited the process because, you know, offer some fixed price video projects, is that.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's, that's all we offer actually. Yeah.

So that has to be systemized, doesn't it? Otherwise, talk to me how that works in reality.

Okay, so we're going to make kind of think of it Like Lego blocks. You know, there's.

Businesses like Certainty, that's, you know that, that's an axiom. And.

We, we have to, we have to think about our customers as our customers, but we also have to think about our freelancers as our customers as well. So we set expectations with them. It's like, well, this is a unit of work, this is a unit of shoot. And when we create units of everything, the preliminary graphics I'm talking about, so that's like a unit of graphics, they know how much time to spend on it, they know what we expect. And when you create those sort of building blocks, then it's very easy to bundle and package. Now, occasionally things will go off the track, but as long as that happens as the exception rather than the rule, then you're always going to be ahead with the clients that we provide for. They love video, everybody loves video, but what they don't like is the uncertainty of a creative process. And so as soon as you can say, look, this video is going to be X number of dollars and you're going to be happy with it, and they keep on coming back and the price doesn't go up, that's a very easy sell. So if we can manage that on our end, then we're winning. And the way that we sell it is by.

By creating these kind of Lego block units that we purchase of our freelancers and that we in turn bundle up the way that we do and then sell them onto our clients.

So it seems to me like your film is really embracing the massive changes that are happening in the marketplace just now. Yeah, we are, because we've seen incredible shifts and.

I don't want to judge anyone and certainly not passengers, but some people are stuck. I use the analogy on the taxi rank while people are standing next to them with their Uber app open.

Yep, yep, there's a great analogy.

What perspectives do you have on how you as a company have embraced what's happening in the market and adjusted from the, well, we want to charge ten grand a day to do a shoot to fixed price video. Because many people listening or watching might be thinking, but how can you make a fixed price video? How is it possible? How do you approach that relationship?

Is a good answer and trust. I think the way I see it is this whole technological revolution which has happened pretty much over the course of my career. Really.

It was like an explosion that happened. And I don't think the dust is completely settled yet. And I think there's sort of this kind of standoffish defensive attitude. I Mean, there's, you know, there's so much to be said about the skills of the craft and also the affordability of the technology. And we've got, like, what I see is this massive underserviced middle ground where on the one side you get the really high end stuff on the one side, and that's fine. And then you've got the kind of cowboys who, like, you know, right there on the low end, who are all talk and can't deliver on the other. But in the middle, there's really well qualified craftspeople and people who want to work with them, but there's no language for them to speak. There's no common language. So we're kind of coming back in the middle and trying to negotiate between them, if you like. So being an ex freelancer myself, I'm so on the freelancer side, and I absolutely see where they're coming from. There's a big fear of being taken advantage of. I think about the whole race to the bottom idea, and I think that there's a middle ground here. I think that there's some way that you can acknowledge that, okay, equipment does cost less, it is a lot more accessible. But on the other hand, there are more screens than there have ever been before. Can't we find a compromise? Because if we don't find that compromise, the people who feel that they're getting underpaid will really get screwed over because the job simply won't be there, because the clients will just go, you know what? Too hard. So I see our role in this as bringing those two forces together to create a third thing which doesn't yet exist in the marketplace. And to me, that is beautiful because that's what I loved about editing in the first place. You take one piece of footage, you put it up against a separate piece of footage, and you create a third idea that's not inherent in the first two. If you can't tell just by listening to me speak, I am as excited by what I'm doing today as I was when I first touched my first Nonlinear editing suite when I was like 20 years old. The same. You will often talk on this podcast about the difference between creativity and business. I do not see a difference.

You know what? This might seem a little controversial, but I'm going to bring it up because I think it's important to address this. Do you think and feel and what you see and listen to that there are some freelance mentalities that view we always charge the law, therefore let's keep charging a lot and Clients this and clients that and clients the next thing. And on the other side, you've got clients going, well, filmmaking was expensive, but it's not expensive anymore. And there's this kind of gap which sounds like you're trying to fill it.

That is exactly what I'm.

I do. I do sense there is a bickering and an animosity. An animosity, absolutely.

Yeah. And I guess we're trying to play the role of the mediator in this. I mean, I do see it genuinely from both people's sides. And that's what I said when I say it's a matter of trust.

When you're a creative, you kind of. And when you make that separation between creative and business, then that's where your antagonism comes from. When you try and separate those two things out. Everybody's just trying to make a living. The more markets that are available, the better. So how can we make that happen while still respecting, you know, the, the, the. The rates, for example, that are, you know, charged by a cinematographer. And we have to take into account the technology's changed. But that should mean more work, not less. But it shouldn't mean. I don't know. Can I swear on your podcast? Is it even swearing?

Sure, yeah.

Explicit.

We've got an explicit rating on itunes.

I'm just going to say, taking the piss. It's nothing massive, but, you know, I'm always very careful that we are never perceived as taking the piss. Like we, you know, I'm talking about from the freelance.

It comes down to a respect thing. And we're not trying to. In trying to bring these two parties together and saying, hey, you know what? This company over here, they just need a really simple shoot. Now, I know you're a creative professional and everything, but can't we work out some sort of a deal when it's one camera, one light, one lapel, Microsoft, you know, there's a market for that. Can we make it happen?

And the uber analogy is true. I mean, the market dictates the rates.

Yep.

I mean, market dictates price. Why would I get into a taxi if I can pick up my phone and go the same journey in more comfort, generally with an engaging conversation with a human being for half the price? It doesn't make logical sense. And I think what's happening in the craft market of freelance skills is that, you know, I think this happens with designers with sound people with camera, with editing, is that the old way works in a different time. The fact is, we can accept, we can access Great talent offshore at a fraction of the price to be commercially viable. That is an option that many companies are taking. So I think the question that I want to raise is how can we help the freelancers transition into the new way of working whilst helping the clients understand that there is value in spending a bit more. And I feel there's still a gap between what freelancers want to pay, which is higher, what we want to be paid, which is like the old broadcast rates versus businesses going, well, we don't need to spend that and we're not going to spend that. Do you think there's any. How do you think that middle ground can be, you know, how can that gap be shortened?

Oh.

Well, hang on, I might need you to rephrase that. What do you mean the gap shortened?

Like, well, so you've got freelancers who are sitting on one side of the fence saying, My rate is $500 a day, no matter what I'm shooting. And you've got a client saying, well, I've got 500 for the whole project. And they're like, well, the preiance are saying, well, I'm not doing it for any less than 500. And the company saying, well, I can't pay any more than 500.

Well, there is a line at which. There is a line at which it won't work and they won't get anybody with FCP talent. I remember really early on, people started taking the piss. Employees would come in and, you know, we're offering this look, I have to draw a line. I was really happy to be able to do that, you know, to act like, almost like a quick quasi minimum payment sort of union situation. It's like, no, we just won't serve you for less than that. On the other hand, every now and then we get a job that goes out and it is, you know, for less. Right. I created three tiers. There is, you know, we're looking for a, say, an editor, for example, who's a junior, or we're looking for standard rates or we're willing to pay over the odds for top talent. They're the three that it's broken down into. So, you know, like, I put a job out the other day and it was, you know, for like $25 an hour for a junior. And I got at least two emails unsolicited back to me going, that's outrageous. Well, you can't get an editor for that. And I'm like, 25 is the minimum. Nothing's coming through for under that. But they're just Going to get a junior like they will get with. They will get what they pay for. If somebody responds and they're well overqualified, it's not in my interests to forward that person. This is a junior role. They're going to get a junior person. But having said that, why shouldn't those two people work together if that's all they've got budget wise, and if that is all that junior can charge, then match made in heaven. Those two people should get out there and do the very best they can until the junior has more skills to work on, until they become in the market more valuable or until the employer realizes. Actually, you know what, I do need to employ somebody who's a little more experienced.

And isn't it the case that in some worlds people do work experience for free and end up doing work? So the fact is, I don't think it's for us to judge someone starting out in their career earning $25 an hour. And I love the fact that you have this ethical approach to your business, which is we want to create tiers because you want to try and facilitate what the market requires, but also offer that to the group. And I've used FCP talent and it's amazing. You put a job. I put one job out. I gave a rate and I had 10 applications. I had to sift through applications. So I think that's amazing.

I should mention this, you only sifted through the best applications. That is when I realized what value our website fcptalent.com has is. I used a similar website, it was just for drone operators. And I remember for the next 48 hours I was just fighting off emails because basically they just publicly, publicly listed this job. And like I went, oh my God, that's our value is. The short list is where we take everybody because we track everybody's reputation. You know, the best people who've got the best ratings from previous jobs, they'll be forwarded first. And what you see is only the best you get to, you know, you make the final choice. But yeah, you know, we've already done the hard yards for you.

Yeah, I love it. Now listen, I want to just do a little fun thing, which is if you were to go back 10 years and you were a younger version of you today, how would you approach business today given what you've learned? Bit of a funny question that, but I think it's always an interesting one to ask.

It is.

Well.

I.

See when we're talking about the whole antagonism between the creative and the business the employer, the employee. I'd tell myself to chill out a bit more about that.

You know, that we are actually on the same side. But I don't know how I would communicate it to myself. I think.

It'S such a cliche when you hear people say, oh, look back. I wouldn't change a thing. I do look back and think that everything I went through was necessary.

But I tell you what, how about this one? I've got a little thing in my head where if anybody asked me for any business advice and I only had, like, two seconds to give it, I would use the following two words. Be lube. Be lube.

When I was in that first job, I remember asking the guy for feedback. I said, what do you like about what I'm doing here? And he goes, you know, to be honest with you. And I was expecting, oh, I really like the way you're at it, or, you know, you really, really good eye. But he was honest, and I really appreciate this is what he said. He goes, I don't have to worry. If I know you're doing a job, then I can go and do something else. At the time, it was, like, kind of crushing. It's like, oh, so I'm invisible. Oh, man. The value of being invisible. The value of being lube to someone else. The value of going, you don't have to worry about this.

It is a compliment.

An episode with Matt Jepson a few weeks ago, and Matt said, adulation and compliments don't pay the bills. And I think that you're saying a similar thing, which is to be invisible, to be getting paid because you're reliable, is something that I feel many creators overlook.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. But it's also. So it's not enough. Like, I think it's great. And I would hold onto an employee like that. Absolutely. But there's something else that I'm thinking of at the moment, which I call the plus 10%. So. And it's kind of a new idea, and I'm kind of still working it out, but I have to work it out, actually, because I got to do a talk on it in Sydney in December. The idea is this, in whatever you're doing, there's. It's kind of like, I'm into this, a lot of Zen stuff at the moment. I'm not saying I'm a Buddhist monk or anything. It's really interesting ideas. And I was thinking of the idea of there's a story of Buddhist monk goes to a temple and he Spends some time there with a master. And eventually he says, hey, master, you know, you haven't taught me anything. He goes, what are you talking about? I've been walking around this temple. You've been watching what I'm doing. And he goes, yeah, but it's like all we've been doing is, like, sweeping and cooking meals. And the master looks at the monk and he goes, have you eaten your meal? And he says, yes. He goes, then wash your bowl. And the monk was enlightened. Now, you can take that any way you want, but it resonated with me at the time, which is basically just do what's in front of your face. You're sitting there, you're worrying about this or you're thinking about that. Do the thing that's in front of your face, right? Doing that is being invisible and being luby to your employee. Just do your thing. But that plus 10%, wash your bowl. Plus 10% has absolutely changed my life. Something like, you're in the shower. What are you doing? You're having a shower. Great. You turn off the taps, whatever. You dry yourself off. That's washing your bowl. Fine. What's the plus 10%? I don't know. Maybe just wipe down that surface. Plus 10% every time adds up to an absolutely transformative life. So in everything that I do, I run my business, but I still try and be lube for my clients. So when they ask me a question like, hey, do you think I could have that mov in mp4 format? Then I'll do it for them. And then as a plus 10%, I'll show them how easy it is for them to do it for themselves in future. And it's that plus 10% that I think takes you from being a good employee or a good business person to actually being invaluable. You put that cherry on top, and people will, on an emotional level, never forget it. And they'll keep coming back to you because you'll keep on surprising them with not just doing the job, but doing the job. Plus 10%.

I absolutely love that. That's golden. So, look, I just want to kind of move on a little bit to, you know, again, you kind of answered it. But the balance between business and creativity, how does that. How does that work for you?

There is no difference. And that's a. It might sound like a weird thing to say, but I think I used a domino's analogy. Remember those dominoes movies from the 80s, you know, and they, like, set up these intricate things and they're like, when they. The first domino and then it all goes down. That's how I see systems in my business. So I don't know how you can understand that and not see that as a creative process.

I still love what is traditionally termed creative, but I would actually be perfectly happy to make the same video over and over again for the next 10 years if I could just hone how perfectly the process to get that video out was done. That is as much as a creative process as the video itself. Every now and then people ask, what sort of videos do you make, by the way, if anybody asks you that, don't pause too long because they'll always assume it's smutty.

So I don't pause. And I say, I would do a lot of corporate stuff, and there's still a part of it inside me that kind of goes, you know, they're gonna think, all right, corporate stuff. Boring. Yawn. Well, I almost stopped. Having almost stopped explaining this now. But it is not boring for me. Like.

Well, because nowadays the market for videos is. Everything has to be a story, everything has to be engaging, everything has to look good. There is no real boring corporate video anymore, is there? Not as far as I'm aware, in the current market in Sydney. I mean, yes, there's some stuff that.

You could consider dry, like just straight up internal comms, CEOs making an announcement. Yeah, that's boring.

But the way that you arrange it and do it and put the cherry on top and spit out there and deliver it a day ahead of schedule and all that kind of stuff, I find that.

I'm already excited about it. What the hell's wrong with you?

I love it. Listen, what's the best advice you've ever received if you can pick one piece?

Well, look, that E Myth book would have to be. Would have to be the best one.

And I'll quickly tell the story how it came up because it's just one of those ways that you understand how interesting how things come about unexpectedly. So I had a client, and for a while he was a good client. He worried me a little bit. I thought he was moving too fast. And really, you know, I didn't really think that he had the skill set required to do what he was doing. And then I made a very fundamental mistake, which was let a lot of invoices build up. And eventually they stopped getting paid.

Now, I'm not going to go into any detail about that except to say that 18 months later, they were all paid. And I have to give the guy credit for that. But. And I'm like, God, I'm really glad this guy's out of my life. But he gave me this book.

Here. You enjoy audiobooks. You might enjoy this one. And in that. That idea of you are not your business.

You are. The line between being.

The creative who had the entrepreneurial seizure and the business owner was absolutely revelatory to me. I always thought that.

Business people were kind of these cold, soulless people. But no, they're building these beautiful little machines that are like perpetual motion, you know, and only once all the systems are ready and everything's been taken, like designed so that nothing unnecessary is there anymore and you can take your hands away and you can step back. Suddenly I had new respect for that. So I think, yeah, the ideas in that book probably were the best piece of. Best piece of advice ever got. It just inverted the way I saw what I did and who I was. You might have heard of the phrase a Copernican inversion where it's the idea of Copernicus seeing for the first time, oh, wow, the sun doesn't go around the earth, the earth goes around the sun. And it's. Nothing changes, but everything changes just because of how you think about it. And that's what that book did for me.

Wonderful. So what about any personal habits that you engage in that you believe strongly contribute to your.

Okay, I do one year experiments, meaning on the 2nd of January, just to mix it up. Why the first? Everybody does that. On the 2nd of January I will start something new and keep it up for a year. So I quit coffee for a year and the following year I. I took up coffee again, stopped drinking alcohol for a year. That was when I was with you at WeWork. And this year it's meditation twice a day for 15 minutes.

That is a habit that interests me because I meditate. And I'll be honest, I've been a bit out of habit recently, but when I do, it's amazing. Talk me through the impact that twice daily meditation is having on you.

Okay, so.

Well, it's. There is so much to it. And I know that it's almost a bit of a buzzword at the moment, this whole mindfulness and. Oh God, everything's doing it. People could be thinking it's kind of jumping the shark. So I'll try and keep it as nuts and bolts as I possibly can. Actually, how about this? I saw a cartoon that described it perfectly. What is it? Before meditation, after meditation? Before meditation. And it's like a wall, like just this picture of a guy staring at A wall after meditation. And it was the top view and it was in a maze. And it could. It's just a change of perspective. It's not getting so caught up in your own head. It's. Perspective is probably the best word for it. Everybody thinks that it's all about your mind going blank. And I just don't see that at all. It's all about watching what is going on in your mind without trying to make it go blank. And as a side effect, it will calm down. So there's the instant results in that way. But then there's what they refer to as off the cushion benefits, which is just these moments where, because you're in a habit. I mean, I'm nine months into it now and it's just completely habitual to sudden to realize, oh, I'm just in this. This is just, you know, something that I can step back from and look at from another distance. So, for example, the other day I got out of a taxi, not even an Uber. I had to get somewhere really quick and taxi was passing. So I get in an Uber and I leave my wallet in the backseat. And I was with my girlfriend, we're about to go into the movies, and I went to pay for, you know, our drinks. I was like, left that wallet in the back seat. And instead of freaking out or whatever, panic, I just went instantly into step back mode. What does this mean? So to take that even one step further, there's this lovely saying. I listened to a guy called Alan Watts. I could talk for another hour on that. And we're going to the guy from the 70s, did a lot of lectures, look him up on YouTube. Absolutely stunning stuff. And he said this thing which was.

The unenlightened person is the person that thinks they're the same person that walked into the room five minutes ago. The enlightened person is the person that realizes they're not. And I think about that all the time. And this helps me practically in my business because, you know, suddenly, like, let's say I get a. I can tell you right now, I've got client changes in my email. I saw it come through. I didn't look at it before I started this interview. And.

When I look at the. Let's say that they've said, oh, yeah, client loves it. Can you change the music? You know how that screws an edit? That's the worst thing you can hear at the end of a job. And you can hold onto that for as long as you want to. You can angst over it, resent it tell yourself stories about how they don't appreciate you or your gift or your creativity, and they're just corporates.

Or you can realize that all of that stuff doesn't exist anymore. It's.

That's.

That's you. That's another person from five minutes ago. Where are you now? You're this person with these changes. The sooner you move on from this perception that you've got in your head about how good your edit was, the better off for you, not your client, just for you. So it's that kind of benefits that have just come directly from sitting down and practicing the art of not thinking for 15 minutes twice a day.

I think that is a beautiful ending part of our conversation. I think we'd like to have you on the podcast again because this is something that I feel is very, very key. The idea of mindfulness, of looking after yourself, reflection. How can people find you?

Oh, okay. So obviously you're gonna look, you're gonna email me@dougcptalent.com you can come over my house, my address now. I'm not gonna do that.

Look, I' catch me on Twitter at ugsooter and you know, I'm always on the all the various Facebook forums that have anything to do with Final Cut Pro X because that's kind of my jam. And yeah, I usually go by my own name. I don't hide behind an alias.

So, yeah, Doug, this has been enlightening, to use a pun.

Spirituality in post production podcasts. Have a look.

I think that's great, Luke.

See me right now. Can I show you this? My mother bought me this mug.

The mug, for those of you listening says, I love Bobcat and it's a.

Picture of my cat. I said in my bio that I'm a cat man. Boom.

Fantastic, Doug. Thank you so much. We will post all the links to your various sites underneath the links here. Guys, that's it for this episode of Business for Creatives podcast. Please do tune in again for the next episode.

Okay, thanks so much for having me on, Dan.

You've been listening to the Business for Creatives podcast with your host, me, Dan Lenny. If you're a creative business owner who is struggling to get your business performing at the level you want, then head on over to businessforcreativespodcast.com to take a free business evaluation survey and discover where you can plug the holes in your business. You can also access a range of free training to help you build your business faster. Also, don't forget to rate the show over on itunes. So we can get the message out there to more creators who need to hear it. Thanks for listening.