Good Day Google+ - Blogging, Branding and Marketing

Hi, I'm Chef Dennis Littley, and today we're here with Good Day Google Plus. And like I like to say, it's always a good day when you're on Google Plus. And Friday's one of my favorite days because there's a great lineup of shows. If you're coming off of Mia's show, you know, welcome to mine. Later on, I'm gonna be on the Manly Pinterest Show at 4 o'clock, so that should be some fun too. But today I've got a wonderful lineup of guests for you today. And like always, if you have a question, put it in the comment section and we will get to it, I promise. And right now I'm going to introduce my guests. And starting at my one side, I have Kelly. Hi Kelly, how you doing?

Hi Chef, great to be here. I'm doing wonderful, thank you.

Oh, my pleasure. I'm so glad you could be with us. Lanie.

Hey guys, hey Chef, thanks for having me on.

I'm glad we finally get to meet face to face.

I know, finally.

I know, sometimes it comes down to that when we don't We haven't really met before.

I know, we all get so busy too.

It is, it is. Google+ keeps us running.

Yep.

And Lynn, how you doing, Lynn?

Good morning from beautiful Sonoma Valley. Thank you for having me today, I'm so excited.

Me too, it is morning here too, isn't it?

Hi everybody, all my buddies that I haven't met until now live.

That's the wonderful thing about Hangouts, we get to meet everybody. And Mark, Mark coming to us from Philadelphia, the City of Brotherly I really love it. I'm so sorry we didn't get to meet before I left the area.

Yeah, definitely. I really like your jabs about how warm it is down there all the time. Hi everyone, thanks for having me on.

My pleasure. Well, my wife says I need to stop it because when the hurricanes start, everybody's going to be making fun of me. But hopefully—

I just want to give you a poke. Pop back here if you can see that.

Oh, I see it. But, Mark, you know what? I have a Wawa a half a mile from my house.

Oh, that's right, they're putting them in Florida now.

Yeah, and actually I think coffee's 59 cents this week, so that does prove that I was in there. Yeah, we do frequent the Wawa, and our Wawa isn't necessarily like the ones at home. We have outdoor seating music. So yeah, so you can go out. Now let me tell you one thing, though. They have about 4 gallons of milk in the whole store, which is a really weird Wawa, and they have no bread. So it's a different kind of a Wawa completely.

Do they have Tasty Cakes?

They have Tasty Cakes, and thankfully they have Harris potato chips.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, hold up here.

Tasty Cakes?

Hey, you've never heard of Tasty Cakes?

Give me the lowdown, I need to know.

Well, before they took the evil trans fats out of them, they were wonderful. Now they're good.

Oh.

And they make a variety. I guess their one biggest thing is a butterscotch crumpet that they have made their reputation on. They do a whole line of other little cake desserts, cupcakes, and Treats.

Tasty Clairs.

Tasty Clairs, and then pies. The pies were— I think the pies suffered the most from the change. They're baked now, and I don't know if they were fried, but I think there was definitely some more fat in them before they changed them.

That's right, politically correct food now.

Well, Philadelphia made them do it. Philadelphia changed their laws, and they were in the city, and they were not allowed to use that stuff anymore, so they had no way around it at all. People screamed locally because they love Tasty Cakes and they loved the original flavor of them, but they're still going pretty strong.

Wow.

And Mark, I'll show you how old I am. I remember when the pies were 12 cents.

Wow.

They are now $1.69, so if that's any indication.

Yeah, I remember 25 cents.

Yep.

25 cents for like, how big?

Back then they were pretty good size.

Yeah.

A one-person size?

Oh yeah, one person size, individual.

Well, Lynn, the tasty Claires have 23 grams of fat in them. So I would say one person.

Oh, yeah, one person for sure.

I'd have to do a lot of Pilates to work that off.

But you know, the best thing is, is they come in family-size boxes too. So not the pies, but everything else. So you can usually—

They're for the family?

Well, I didn't say they were. I said they come in family-size boxes, which means you can eat 2 or 3 of them then.

That's a problem.

Which is a problem, and generally they're on sale, they're never 1 for something, they're always 2 for. So you have to buy 2 boxes of them to get the discount. Tasty Cake is very smart about that. They don't give it unless you— and it's like 50 cents more to buy the second box, so you just have to do it.

I have one more question and that's it about the Tasty Cakes. Do any of them have bacon? No! Watch that comment blow up. As soon as I mentioned the B word, bacon, it's like saying squirrel.

It's like, perk up.

No, and not Kevin Bacon either. We're hoping for him sometime.

Yeah, yeah.

But no, there are no bacon-flavored tasty cakes. You know, that's, that's a pretty good idea.

Not yet.

Yeah, you were first. Chef's thinking about it. He's like, how can I make that happen?

Yeah, I know. I know my wife's away for the weekend and I have bacon in the house. You never know what I might come up with. When she's around, she like kind of puts the kibosh on certain things. Like she She just doesn't understand my fascination with bacon. She likes it, but that's as far as it goes.

Interesting. I'm such a contrast, just such a yin and yang here because yesterday I was juicing at the same time as I was cooking a pound of bacon in the oven. I love it. That's like a contradiction, isn't it? Go figure. I've got my green juice and my bacon.

You got to balance it.

They totally cancel each other out. Then the bacon just doesn't even count.

My saying is, Everything in moderation, including moderation.

Yes, right?

Exactly, I love it. Including moderation. Don't get all crazy and black and white on the food stuff here.

Oh no, you have to just let yourself indulge every now and then. I don't eat beef, but Wednesday I went out with a couple plusers down here, Carolyn Capern and Greg Trulio, and they took me to Four Rivers Smokehouse Barbecue.

Wow.

Oh my God, it was wonderful. But they had a mixed ends sandwich, so it was pork and brisket, beef brisket. So I normally don't eat beef, but I do make the rare, very rare exception for brisket if it's good.

Did you walk out of there, Chef, with a food coma?

No, I only had one sandwich, so it really wasn't— I didn't overdo it because I was eating with new people. So, you know, my wife was there too, so she would have—

Your best behavior.

So I had to behave myself a bit. But Mark, you know, have you ever been to Nick's Roast Beef? No.

No?

In the city?

I pretty much most of my life lived as a vegetarian.

Oh, okay. There's a place in Philly though, Nick's Roast Beef, and the first time they took me there after a night of cooking at a restaurant, I had 2 roast beef sandwiches and then they told me they had roast pork.

Oh my gosh.

So I had 2 more of those and pretty much had to be rolled out of the building. They mentioned something about going somewhere for cheesecake and I was like, "Mmm, no, no." Chef's Shut up, Shawn.

I wanted to highlight a comment here from Thomas Nielsen. He says, "Bacon juice is the next step." Yeah!

Where is that?

I missed it. It's, uh, there you go.

I did it!

Yay!

Bacon juice is the next step. About beef.

I love it. And then Dr. Gene is with us. Hey, everybody straighten up. Dr. Jane is here.

Make me sit up straight.

We do a great—

she's wonderful. We do a great series on Mondays and she has been since— she's the brains behind it. I keep telling her, I'm just the fluff and the pretty face that leads the show and she does all the hard work.

Well, I love the work she does. I was on a Hangout with her last week and it was amazing and just talking about all of the options, you know, for people who have sensitivities and downright— am I echoing?

Yeah, yeah, you are.

Huh, why? Why? Yeah, it was great.

Are you using your headphones? It's getting really bad. I mean, has the settings changed?

Did you look at the little gear to make sure that they are? Yeah, that's her husband's lawnmower.

Maybe I need some new headphones.

Well, let's get started. We've had enough fun with tasty cakes and beef and pork and all kinds of meats.

Bacon.

Bacon. Don't get me started again. I'm going to turn it over to Kelly. Kelly, why don't you tell us a little bit about what you do, what you do on the Plus, or anything you'd like to talk about.

The floor is yours.

Sure, absolutely. I'm so happy to be here. I met Chef Dennis a little while back when we did a Cooking Google Hangout. Um, it was a lot of fun. And I'm the founder of justataste.com, which is a food blog. I do recipes and cooking videos, and I'm also a professionally trained chef and the author of Food Blogging for Dummies. So if anyone has any questions about anything and everything food blogging related, I'm your girl. If you need any help with photography, food styling, setting up your WordPress site, anything like that, I'm happy to answer any questions. I went to culinary school in New York, and I worked there for a while, and now I split my time between LA and New York.

Well, that sounds like a lot of fun. Did they have bacon at the culinary school?

They did. Oh my gosh.

I know they also probably had duck fat too, didn't they?

Oh, we cooked everything in duck fat. I just had duck fat french fries the other day, which reminded me I hadn't had them in forever. They are the crispiest french fries you will have in your life. Big fan.

Duck fat is the only thing that one-ups bacon.

It does.

Yeah, if we cook bacon in duck fat.

Oh gosh. That's asking for a heart attack.

I mean, come on.

Alright, Lanie, let's move on to you. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what you do?

Hey guys, I'm Lanie Sullivan. I'm actually one of those 4 girls. You'll see it in my lower third. A community I just started a few weeks ago. We've got 400 women in it and I am having a blast. We are taking women and the culture of women and working together to a whole other level. We say we started a conversation that started a revolution. Come join us. We are doing some amazing things. We have a show starting in February. Oh my goodness. I was just reading Jean Layton's comment while I'm talking.

She loves bacon.

Yeah.

Let's break and put that up because I want everyone to see this. The gluten-free doctor, "I love bacon." She's not talking, Kevin, organic and nitrate-free.

Yay!

We love bacon. Actually, Lynn is going to be one of our featured speakers. Come over, join us. We are going to be one of the largest groups— we will be the largest group for women in business on Google+. I do business coaching and helping women get onto social media. I have business tools and services and all sorts of fun stuff. Come on over. Get to know me.

Sounds good. Perfect place to be.

I know.

Alright, Lynn, it's your turn.

Let's see if I can do this without echoing. How's that?

So far so good.

Uh-oh, I hear a little bit, but we'll ignore it for now. Let me know if it gets bad. I am a business consultant and I specialize in social business. So if, you know, it's kind of a new term now, social business, but what it really is is that words matter. And if you need to integrate your social presence or your online presence with your offline presence, then that's what I do for clients. I help give clients, businesses, the words to use, how to humanize their brand, how to give their brand personality, and how to really weave it through everything that they're doing. Not just in their business but in their lives, in their personal lives and in their business lives so that they are who they are who they are.. No matter where they go, people relate to them. They become top of mind. You can find out more about me on all of the channels where I live. I'm loving Google+ because it gives us this. The tools are amazing and I'm such a geek. It's weird. I always say that I'm fascinated with that intersection between human beings and technology. Anything that brings our world closer together is something that I'm interested in and something that I'm really concerned with. You can find me at People. Peoplefw.com because I believe in all things putting people first. I've got an About page on Google+ that has, hopefully it's got every single place where I live and play on Google+. I do have a home in New Zealand and I run the business from here because it's a vacation rental. If any of you want to head over to New Zealand, it's summertime coming up right now in New Zealand. I give very good mate rates. And you got to check it out. That website you can check out is harmonynz.net. I think I'm echoing again.

Yeah, it's funny, I just started up, but we got you back in just a second.

There I go.

Alright, let's turn it over to Mark. Mark, so great to have you here.

Gladly here. As far as what I do, I'm not so sure. I started out a couple months ago. Yeah, I'm hearing a lot of feedback.

Yeah, can you mute yourself?

Yep, let me see if that works.

Okay, try now, Mark.

Yeah, I kept hearing myself and I don't want to hear myself. So I'm doing the HOAshows.com, a guide for HOA shows, and if anyone's interested in being a guest on HOAs, there's a section in there to fill out so that hosts can look for you. And there's also the calendar, of course. And losing my mind with it. You guys are keeping me very, very busy.

Yeah, I think that's quite a project you took on, and I think as more people are doing shows, it's going to get even more maddening. You're going to need an assistant there.

Oh, without doubt. Lainey.

Me? I'm trying to clone myself right now. I don't know if I can do much.

If that was possible, I think a lot of us would be doing it.

Well, I always tell my friends, I'm looking for some minions. Anybody want to sign up to be my minion? Because I need some help.

Definitely. Time for an intern. Let me throw up a comment here. I lost it. There it is. From Chris, Kristin, Kelly, I'm chilling eating chocolate chip cookies right now. We'll bake later.

What?

For the sled hockey tournament.

I want to give a— here's one of my all-time favorites. I won't say what ingredient it is, but if you go to justiseasy.com, you'll find them.

Oh, I love chocolate chip cookies. I'm so going there when we're done.

And there's tips too for like the best chocolate chip cookies, which is selling the dough for at least 48 hours. So you can check that out. But I hope you enjoy the— and a sled hockey tournament sounds like a lot of fun. So wish you the best there.

Hmm, I don't know where this echo has come from. I'm so sorry, guys. I just— Mark, I just muted you to see if it was— you'll have to unmute yourself. I just want to go through this methodically and see if it's me as I muted myself. There we go. Can you hear it now?

No.

Lainey, it's you.

Lainey.

Lainey. Okay, let's see.

Is it really me?

Yeah, mute yourself.

Alrighty, bye guys.

We love you, Lainey.

There you go, now you're muted. Now there's no echo.

No echo.

Lynn, unmute yourself, let's see.

Okay, I did it.

There you go. All right, now we're good. All right, Lainey, just when you're not talking, if you can mute— I'm sorry, I don't know if you're— is your headphone wired? Do you have that the right setting on the gears that it's going to your headphone? You're good? Okay, sorry about that. All right, well, let's move on from here then. Let me get rid of this.

I did have another I just texted the husband and I said, please log off the internet now, quit hogging my bandwidth.

Well, you're looking pretty good. Okay, here's from Kitty, starts a conversation that starts a revolution, love it. Lanie Sullivan, I'm sure I will make it to your naked face, isn't it Hangout Someday, not naked face?

No, yeah, it's called Bring Your Naked Face that we do.

Bring your naked face. Hi Kitty. KitKat.

And that is not for men. I crashed it once.

Well, don't they make exceptions?

They did.

Only for Mark.

Only for Mark. Oh well, alright. I'll have to be happy, I guess. Men can't go everywhere, I guess.

Well, Sam Stormborn asked me if we were going to do one for men, and I was like, well, if we need to do one, let's go. I'll do one for men too. We're doing it because women are afraid of the camera, and I'm sure there's some guys too, but the ladies just, you know, they gotta feel like they gotta be perfect and it's gotta, you know, put on a certain appearance. And I was just like, let's get— just forget the makeup, throw your hair in a ponytail, forget showering, put on your favorite sweatshirt and grab your coffee or your wine or whatever, and let's just get on and get comfortable. So if the guys— if there's enough of interest, I'll put one on for guys too, happily.

That could be a little scary. Guys come in their boxers.

No, you must be clothed, fully clothed. There's no nakedness allowed.

You know, it's interesting, Lainey, and I think I've said this to you, as a business consultant, I look at the systems that people set up because I'm a systems geek. If there's not a system for it, I'll help set it up. Your system is amazing because as a former public speaker, People used to say to me, how do you get up in front of thousands of people with the, you know, the lavalier and the teleprompter and all that? How do you do that? And I said, you know, the more prepared I am, the easier it is. And then I just feel like I'm having a natural conversation. What you're doing in leading up to your particular brand of HOAs that you're going to be launching is you've already started to get people involved at a level that is really far above what most people get to launch into an HOA with. And that is that You are training your future guests now in a really comfortable setting. And I was on one of those, I guess it was a Hangout on Air, but the Naked Face one.

Yeah, we don't actually go live.

So it's a Hangout, it's a Hangout but not on air. And you know, there was a group of girls there that was just amazing and we got to know each other. And I think that the more you prepare people like that the more quality and the more professionalism and the more fun you're going to have because then you can kind of relax and have that casual professionalism, I call it. It's really being casually professional. I mean, there's something to really be said for that. So congratulations on what you're doing. I really look forward to seeing how it all launches out.

Me too. So thank you. I'm glad you got to jump on and I welcome all the women. We always announce it in the community when we're doing them. And it's open to anybody that just wants to, you know, get comfortable.

So yeah, it's fun.

You know, Lainey, you can record your videos on YouTube Live and make them private. So at that point, you could share them to the ladies and let them see themselves and critique themselves. Because if you don't have a recording, sometimes it's harder for them to see that they really did a really good job and they're just, you know, afraid of nothing.

Exactly. Well, we're working our way into that. We don't want to scare them off with recording yet. So the next few that we're going to do, we're going to start recording them and doing them privately so that way they can see what they're doing and how to improve and all that kind of stuff.

You're really smart, lady. You're really smart because each layer is going to build on the next and it's just brilliant.

I can't take all the credit. There's 4 of us. Who are your partners?

Give a shout out.

Barb Jasper, Shannon Lemos, and Anna Godfrey. They are some amazing women. We had a mastermind and out of the mastermind came Bringing your naked face. I was like, how do we get these women participating? They're deathly afraid of the camera. I know I was. The first time I was like, I'm not getting on the camera with no makeup, are you kidding me?

I know when I first started doing these shows, women would show and all you would see is from the head up.

You probably forgot your lipstick, Chef, at least once.

I actually have to be careful I don't have ChapStick on because my lips kind of look greasy then. My connection is too good here.

Yeah, it's good stuff, good stuff.

Kelly, talk to us a little bit and tell us a little bit about your website. And I know you worked when we did that thing, was it Epicurious, wasn't it?

Yes, I was at Epicurious at the time and I've since left to do Just a Taste full-time, which has been fantastic. I'm about 6 months into the entrepreneurial space, running the company full-time. It's been an amazing experience. It was kind of interesting to transition from blogging as a hobby to blogging as a business. There are so many other things that go into it. You actually have to make money. You have to have all of those considerations. It's been really interesting and fun to make that jump. I had always wanted to do it.. And I finally got myself to a point where I was like, if I don't do it now, I'm never going to do it. And so that's what I tell people. I get emails every week saying, you know, when should I do it? When should I make that move? And I always say it's never going to be a perfect time. You know, it's never going to be— everything's not always going to be great, everything's not going to be set up perfectly. But as long as you have a strong business plan— and I always tell people to have 2-year goals and have 5-year goals, because I'm really big on seeing a long-term picture. So to really set yourself up for success, I think you need to look far enough in the future to try and understand that you have to evolve a lot. The digital space changes so quickly. I'm constantly trying to evolve and see what's next. That's why Google+ is so great, because you can really stay on top of the trends and what people are talking about next and being that one step ahead.

Absolutely. You did write the book, you said, The Blogger's Guide. Yes, The Blogger's Guide for Dummies. I have that, actually. What went into it?

Oh, good. Thank you. One copy, yes. It's part of the For Dummies franchise, which is published by Wiley Publishing. They approached me. The book came out in April 2012. It's a 320-page guide. It covers absolutely everything about food blogging, from how to pick the name of your blog, which there is a strategy, which I'm sure everyone here can weigh in on about picking the right blog name, to setting up your site. I really wanted to include a lot of technical information because I think that can be a huge barrier of entry to a lot of people. They don't want to start a blog because they don't know how to register a domain name, or should they use WordPress or Blogspot, or, you know, what are the best decisions, and all the way down to how professional food stylists use some really cool tricks to make food look its best when it's on set. So it's Food Blogging for Dummies. It's out. It's in color, which is great. I did all the photography, and I have also a food blogging guide on my site on justataste.com. It's basically like a cheat sheet. With everything you need to know to start a food blog.

That's good to know. People should go there. Who else blogs here? Does anybody else blog?

Okay, I'm raising my hand halfway.

I know, I'm like, "Get it up there, Lynn, higher, higher, higher." I've got my head down working.

The blogging is so interesting to me because I've got a lot to say. Obviously, I'm no wallflower. I love to write. I guess I'm not doing it often enough. I've written a couple recently. Kelly, I just already thought of a referral for you, honey.

Oh, thank you. I was going to say about the writing thing, I always tell people too, the more you can get down online and just kind of get it all out there, the more you have to mold, which is another point too in not waiting until everything is perfect to launch a site or to launch a blog because you have nothing to work with then. But I will say the one caveat to that is not to launch a blog with only one blog post. I always tell people have at least 10 to 15 posts. So when you start attracting eyeballs, you don't want them to come to the site, have one thing to read, and then leave. So give yourself 10 to 15 posts before you really make it public, so that when that first wave of people come, you know, they've got a whole plethora of content to read and engage with. But I think you should get all your thoughts down. I'm looking forward to connecting even more with you. I think you've got Great energy, everyone here does.

Yeah, oh yeah.

You know, that is an excellent piece of advice because I've gone to sites and I know when I first started there was one post or two posts and you kind of forget.

Right, right.

And I think I blog. HOAshows.com is a blog actually. I use the WordPress system to do the site, so in a way I blog.

That's right.

Oh yeah, I don't call it— consider myself a blogger. I just write when the— when it hits me, and then I'm on a tangent. I go on a tangent when I write, and I let it simmer, and then I'm like— then I just like dump. And people hate me because I can just go write 3,000 or 4,000 words in like 20 minutes. I just bust it out, and then I'm like, publish.

Yeah, well, that's good because it's really helping you create your brand, you know.

Yeah.

Your personal brand again has to be integrated with your business.

Exactly.

There's that echo again.

Oh, it's me. Apparently.

And Lynn, I think that's a really great point too because a lot of times too, like for me personally, my brand is me and you become that brand if that's your goal and your intention. So I think that's a great thing to point out too, is you kind of become the living, breathing version of the brand. I mean, I walk around and I consider myself— I am one with justataste.com. I feel like I want to embody my site, my brand.. I live and breathe it, especially now that I do it full-time. I think that's a great point.

Yes, I talk about that. The guy that I want to refer to you is a chef here in town at one of my favorite places. I mentioned him to Chef Dennis yesterday. He wants to write a book. I said the first thing you need to do is go and interview these two restaurateurs that I know here in town because they've done it. One has done it more than once.. But also I think, you know, getting in touch with you and learning to blog and put his thoughts down would really help him.

Oh, absolutely. Feel free to connect them with me. And I think the whole book writing process is a really fascinating process. I had an awesome experience. I wrote the 320 pages in 8 months. It was a really quick turnaround because food blogging was kind of really hitting its peak and still is, I think, frankly. So we wanted to get the book out as soon as possible and get packed as much information as possible. Into those 320 pages. It was an awesome experience. I'd be happy to chat with anybody, even just who's in the Hangout right now, who's interested in writing a book, wants to do a book proposal even, because the whole proposal process is really the critical part of it. I think the better your proposal, obviously, the easier the writing process really is.

Yes, and I imagine it would be quite daunting for the first-timer.

Oh yeah, it was my first time. There were some very long nights.. But it's totally worth it when you walk into Barnes Noble and you see your name, you know, your brand on the front of a book. I mean, to this day, you know, a year and a half later, I'll walk in and kind of slip it to the front.

I would do that too. I will do that for you. When I see your book, I'm going to do that for you.

Me too, I'll do it for you too.

Your check's in the mail, Lynn.

Let's talk a little bit about branding. You were mentioning that and it's really hard sometimes people don't understand to brand themselves and I think on Google+ it's even more important because they're pushing real profiles instead of brands' profiles and some people are hesitant, they think their brand has to be the only thing they push but you are your brand and you want to become your brand.

Exactly.

Go ahead, Lynn.

Oh gosh, don't even get me started. That's what I do every day. All day, every day. I do it for myself and I do it for clients. Because part of my business is an actual social media agency, I'm in the thick of it. I'm what you would say, I guess, in the trenches of all of the major social channels every day. It's a place to show up and be yourself, really. But if you're not a nice person, fake it. Don't be yourself. Because if you're not nice, then people aren't going to be attracted to you. Ranting and raving and getting negative and all political and religious about stuff all the time can only take you so far. You might get a small following of other people who are angry and pissed off about life, but really, if you want to build a business and you want to build a brand that's sustainable, that's scalable over years and years, and as Kelly said, it's so important to have that plan. It's totally not sexy. It's not fun, it's not sexy, it's sometimes really daunting and challenging to do. There's a book that I kind of live by called The E-Myth Revisited. It's a 30-year-old book written by Michael Gerber. I don't know if any of you have heard of it but this book, I read it once and then I read it again. You should see it, it's tattered and I've highlighted the crap out of it. It's so amazing because it teaches you as a business person to focus on what you're really stellar at, what you're really good at, and let your personality come through. And you know, there's a fine line. I was on a— I was watching an interview yesterday of Jonathan Becker, who's the global CMO of SAP, which is a $20 billion— billion or million? I can't remember if it's an M or a B. You know, everybody knows SAP. And he said, you know, you do straddle a fine line between sharing much of your personal life interwoven with your business. You really have to be smart about it. You'll see on my website, peoplefw.com, you'll see how I do. I don't share every single thing about my personal life. I'll give you an example. If I'm sick as a dog, if I've got a bad sinus infection and I'm not functioning at 100% capacity, I don't talk about that online. I just don't. Who cares?

I could not agree more. I think there's such a fine line between— and it's different for everyone though. Everybody has to share whatever they feel comfortable sharing. I'm one of those people that I like to sprinkle a little bit of my personal life into things, but I'm all about the food and the recipes and the cooking techniques, and I want that to lead. I want my personal story to be in the background. I want people to know me and know the brand.. But I want the information to be what attracts people.

Right. And they say, you know, you should really choose 3 components of your life that people can count on you so you can become the go-to person for those things. You know, for me it's business development. I love startups. I love enterprise companies that are just going to— they want to be big startups. I was with an internet startup in Sunnyvale for a couple of years and I loved it, so that's one component of who I am. And my family, of course, is interwoven into that because I come from a startup and entrepreneurial family. But the other two things are food and travel. So you will always see food porn from me, and whether you love it or you hate it, you know, if you don't like it, don't look at it, but you're going to be able to count on me for food porn. And I'm on Foodspotting, I'm on Instagram, and I'm tagging Foodspotting like crazy. Then the other thing is travel. Business development, food, and travel. That's what you get from Lynn. You're going to see everything else about my personality woven into those 3 main components of how I live my life. The New Zealand thing just happened because we fell in love with it there. Been going there since the early 2000s when they started making Lord of the Rings. Bought a house there and decided to turn it into a vacation rental. I did the same thing in the Sonoma Valley, a vacation rental. And these are just things that kind of come naturally, but then I decide, yeah, that's my focus because I could do it in my sleep. So figure out who you are and be that on purpose. I think that's a Dolly Parton quote. Figure out who you are and be that on purpose.

It was either Dolly Parton or Dali Lama. I know it was one of those.

Be who you are.

Lani, let's unmute you and let you talk for a while.

Oh no, no, I was just going to say, you know, Lynn, those 3 things, it's kind of like breathing. That's what they should be. Somebody asked me the other day why I didn't tell them something about Google+ and I was like, you know, I didn't even think about it. It's just part of what I do. It's just part of my process of how I operate. And they're like, well, did you intentionally not tell me how to do that? Nope, I just— it's part of me. He goes, so it's like breathing. I was like, yeah, it's like the back of my hand, it's like breathing. And that's how your branding should be. It should be like your breath. It should be just that. It should be you. And if it's not, it's not real. And one of my girls, Barb, her brand is Be the Real You, and I love that because she's all about being the real you. And so I think it's super important to be authentic. That's important on an online space because you can represent anything you want online, but if it's not real, people read right through it. So I think you have to match your offline— and I've talked about this before— you have to match your offline identity with your online identity and make sure that they do match and they are authentic.

Absolutely. You know, the other thing too is that I love to get offline and meet the people that I know online, I'd love to meet them in real life. And so I actually seek out those relationships because I come from the old school of networking. When I lived in Napa, I started up so many of those referral groups, you know, the BNI and the Leads Clubs and all of those franchises that went around forever, and they still do. But that's kind of where I cut my teeth, doing it before we had the social media. And so it's really important to Use social media, don't let it use you.

Agreed, 100%. I come from the same background that you do with networking and all of that.

I could tell.

Girl, we're going to do a hangout here real quick. I'm so excited. I'm muting again.

The Lainey and Lynn love fest.

Oh my gosh. You know what, we should do it live just so everybody can watch it. It'll just be a love fest. I love it.

And Mark's over here tying us all together. The great connector.

Totally.

Mark, how did you come up with that idea for the HOAs? What drove you?

A moment of insanity perhaps. I just saw a need for it because I was trying to find HOAs and I was like, this is insane. I didn't know that Mark Bang had a calendar. Which ties into this whole branding thing. I don't have somebody invite a page to the HOAs. I have them invite Mark Seidel, and personal branding is so important. I mean, Lynn— good for you— I think of Lynn when I think of even psychology. Lainey, I think of Women's Power, the Women's Power Network, and food, of course, Chef Dennis Littley. I mean, so the name is very, very important. So I wanted to, you know, get that in there about branding. I just went with the HOA thing, and I've had a lot of support and help. I got a call the other night from Christine DeGraaff, and she said This site is awesome, but it looks awful. And I was like, thank you for calling. I love that kind of stuff. I didn't know that with the latest update of the theme, the site was dreadful. I mean, it was not showing up correctly. So I'm reworking that right now. And I want to thank Christine for being honest and being very open. Whereas family members were like, "Oh, the site looks great." I'm like, "You didn't even look at it, did you?" It's developing and I think that 2014 is just like everyone's saying, the year of HOAs. It's going to keep me very busy.

I think so. I love that part where you can ask for guests or you can put down to be a guest. You know, I'm always looking for guests and always trying to find people that are a little different or edgy or, or have something. You know, when I originally started this, I wanted it to be a variety show, and I was looking for singers and things and people to cook on live, you know, during the show. I thought that would really be nice. So I haven't ruled all those out yet, you know, although Mark Traphagen is gonna sing on Mia's show like I did, so maybe we can get him to come do an encore for us on here.

Oh yeah.

Okay, let's see if we have any other questions. Any questions out there for any of our panel, please? Oh, here's one from Vicki Bessinger. What was the name of that Michael Gerber book? I stepped away for a second and it appears he has many books.

It's The E-Myth Revisited, and what they've done is they've morphed it into The E-Myth for Attorneys, The E-Myth for Authors, It's the E-Myth and I won't even get into the principles behind it. If you read that book, every single business owner, whether you're an SMB or enterprise business, you will identify with that or you will identify with people that you've worked for. You'll understand why businesses don't make it. You'll understand really what's going on with businesses that fail. It's such a shame because I look at a new business as a baby. I mean, you have to eat, breathe, sleep, and live that business 24/7. When they don't make it, of course some don't, it's just really so sad to me. That book I think will help people identify where they need to focus and how they need to focus. It's very specific and it's kind of how I run my business and consult with my clients as well. E-Myth Revisited.

And Michael Gerber is amazing. I saw him speak, was it last year? Or the year before? And he's just brilliant. I mean, if so, if you guys haven't heard him, you know, go find him on YouTube. His, his, yeah, his content is amazing. Yep.

Have to look for him. Here's one from Krithika. I wanted to write a book on my experiences with, with an eating disorder, but I don't know what to say that others haven't. Rather, I don't know how to talk about my experience in a way that stands out from the crowd. She's asking Kelly, how do you differentiate yourself as an author? How do you make sure that your book, which is part of a saturated market, stands out?

That's an awesome question, Kritika. I hope I said your name correctly. I think the book space, much like— it seems like every space nowadays is very saturated, and the whole key is making yourself stick out. So even in the food blogosphere, There's tens of thousands of blogs. How do you make yours stand out from the rest? I think every person— we were talking a little bit before, Lynn and I were speaking about how you become your brand. I think in the book space, too, it's just like if you were to pitch a cookbook, or this would be maybe more of a memoir even. I think it's all about the information that you can provide to people, what sort of service you can offer them. You obviously have a unique perspective on your experience, and I think you can tap into that and just be a resource to people. That's what I try and do on Just a Taste. I answer as many comments as I possibly can on the site. I try and answer every single email that I get. I think if you can provide helpful, useful information, even just so that people might be able to relate to your story in some way, I think that's how you can differentiate yourself in any space that's saturated, whether it's online or in print or on television anywhere.

Good answer.

So true. Chef, is it okay if I say hi to some friends that I see?

Please do, go ahead. Shout out.

I see Andy Lyons is here. Hi Andy, it's so great to have you here. And Kitty, of course, and my girl Elizabeth Traub. Oh my gosh, she's one of my new friends that I met off online, and then I went up to Portland and met her in IRL as we say, IRL. Oh my gosh, and she's a marketer extraordinaire and she is one of the Idol Tweethearts. So if you're into American Idol, you want to hook up with the Idol Tweethearts because it is a hoot. It's so much fun. Hi Elizabeth, I'll see you soon, honey.

Great, glad to have them here today.

Chef, one other thing I wanted to mention too, this was brought up a little earlier about having in-person interactions. Conferences. I'm a huge believer in attending every conference that you possibly can that's within your realm, whether that's food, technology, media. I found maybe 4 years ago I started attending conferences and I hadn't gone to any before that, and it completely changed my entire approach to the online world. Once you meet someone face-to-face, it changes the nature of the relationship in the best way possible. Whether that's going to Blogger Food or Food Blog Forum or Food Wine, whatever these conferences or media events are, not only is it a great chance to network, but it's a great chance— I'm online friends with so many people, so to have the chance to meet them once or twice a year I think is invaluable.

Absolutely. I was fortunate enough to go to 5 last year. Wow. Yeah, I know. I was almost burned out by the end of them. Yeah. It wasn't that I heard a lot of new things in the sessions. Lots of times they're geared more towards newbies or in other areas that you might not be focused in. But the best part of the festival is always just meeting your friends, and that's really why I go. It's just so I can see them in person and talk to them in person. And when I was telling Google we wanted to have a live one, and they're going, "You mean on air?" And I went, "No, a live one." And they go, "Really?" I'm going, "Yeah, really, a live one. We need to touch each other every now and then. We need to be in that close proximity." I said, "Hangouts are Wonderful. But every now and then we need to actually reassure ourselves that we are still alive and be in the presence of them. I think it's important. It's a good point you bring up.

In the Twitter world we call it TweetUp. So we need to make a name for it for the Google+ world. PlusUp. So a MeetUp, it's a MeetUp but in person, right?

Well, they call them HIRLs.

H-I-R-L. H-I-R-L, okay.

Hanging out in real life.

I saw Andy mentioned that, that's a hashtag there. You know, I think for businesses it's important to be aware, you know, like Kelly, you're aware of what's going on, and Chef, you're aware of what's going on in the food world. And so you can seek out those things and obviously you can search for them online, or when you start to hang out with people in your industry, which I do a lot, then I find the things that are appropriate for me to attend. And in fact, I'm gonna go in a couple weeks in San Francisco to a community manager summit. So as a community manager, community director myself, I hang out. I went to 2 last year in Sunnyvale, you know, Silicon Valley. I mean, it's like where all the geeks meet. It's just fascinating. We all get together and geek out over the latest community tools, you know, how to build community. So where do people find you know, the, the events to go to. There are so many around the world.

There's usually a few bloggers that have listings of them for food events anyway.

Yeah, there's definitely listings online. Even I think I usually just Google food events 2014 and just kind of look across the country which ones are available. I mean, there's one probably every couple of weeks, so I think it's just a question of kind of picking and choosing what you think, you know, makes the most sense and also what logistically makes sense for you from where you're at.— you know, travel to them.

I know one thing I'm looking at this year is more of just regular bloggers' events. I was fortunate enough to get invited to Central Florida— I keep wanting to say Southern Florida, but it's Central Florida Bloggers Conference. A lot of the information was geared towards new people, but it was wild because there were fashion bloggers, there was a motorcycle blogger, there was a video blogger. There were bloggers from all over the different realms and listen to how they viewed things in the blogging world and get to meet them and talk. We all had one very big thing in common, but it was how we approached it. That was kind of neat. I'm looking for more of those kind of conferences this year, I think, too.

Yeah, I get so charged up. I just get so charged up being around the people who are speaking my language. We get together and we share what works and what doesn't work. Plan world domination in our industry.

Wait, wait, I'm doing world domination, you can't do it too. We can all do it, it's just choosing your niche, doing it in your niche. We'll partner up together and do it.

Hopefully, yes, we'll bump into each other.

I had to share this pin too, this comment from Elizabeth. Really quick here since— did it work? Yeah. So Lainey Sullivan and Lynn, love fest for Valentine's Day, perfect. Lainey and Lynn for Valentine's Day.

Chef, there's also a great question here from Cassie Kennedy. I don't know if I did that correctly.

I see it.

Maybe we could all go around and answer this. Chef, you included, about what's been your biggest daily challenge in keeping your respective blogs fresh or sites or just what do people do to stay, you know, kind of creative and motivated?

That's a good question, and I actually wasn't creative and motivated for the past few months, and I just put a blog post out and talking about, you know, never telling when you're sick and stuff. Well, I just— I disclosed a few things that I've been going through and some of the problems I've had. But, you know, I think the best thing you can do sometimes, you know, and I do share some things. I know you need to draw a line, but I just felt it was almost like a cleansing for me to actually say it out loud and put it on paper. And sometimes you need to do that just for yourself more than anybody else. But, uh, yeah, you do get burned up.

Everyone, the amount of— yeah, so if that's what feels right to you, that's what you should do.

It's a total judgment call. You gotta go with what works for you, honey.

So I did that, but I mean, I know I've had It's hard now getting restarted. That's always a problem with taking a break. I think sometimes taking a break is not a bad thing. The strangest thing is the hits on my blog, even though I have not been blogging, keep going up. That's one benefit of Google+. The only time I had that I felt sort of sane was when I was on Google+. I still kept engaging there. That's a really good question. Somebody else like to answer that now?

That's— I can't really claim any— people feed me the content. Like I said, HOAshows.com is set up on WordPress. However, I post what's submitted to the site. So for me, that's— it's easy, and it's not really fair for me to take much credit for keeping things fresh.

Well, I have a challenge because there are things that I would just rather not learn because I'm head down working and I really want to focus on my strengths. For the things that I really don't want to delve into, I go to the experts. I've been attending Craig Chamberlain's WordPress class every night during this past week. He's been having a WordPress class and last night was an open Q&A. I actually hired somebody to build a site for me which I'm still fine-tuning and my friend Elizabeth helped me fine-tune it up a little bit more. There's still things that I want to just get in there and tweak. I'm still not exactly me and it will be soon as I have the time to go in and do it. I pick up little tips from people and since I'm a very quick learner, I can go in and make modifications but aside from that, the content is just I keep a Word document and I I just do a brain dump every time I think of something. I think of things in the middle of the night, while I'm driving in the car. So I use all of my technology tools to record either my voice or I call my telephone and I leave myself a message about things that I want to talk about. I did it yesterday. I had 2 things that came up and I knew if I didn't write them down or leave them on a message, I would forget them. Those are some really concrete things that I could give you in answer to your question about the challenges and how to overcome them. Go to the experts, pay the money to have people come in and help you and take advantage of some of the online courses that are available. Then for your content, just keep it fresh in terms of keeping it on a Word document. All you need is a couple of keywords and phrases.. And then you'll pick up with whatever it was you wanted to write about.

And I always say too, content is king. Content drives everything. I mean, if you don't have something wonderful in terms of content, it makes it very difficult to market it, to publicize it. So I rely so much on the strategy behind the editorial for my site. I work on a 3-month lead time. I draw inspiration from eating out at restaurants if there was a dish that I really like that I want to recreate at home. Emails from people asking for recipes, flipping through the latest magazines, searching online, looking what's trending on Google+, on Twitter, on Facebook, and just kind of pulling from all those different things. Also, too, what I want to eat. That's the biggest thing. I think content is king. You've got to have something that other people want to learn from or be interested in, constantly offering that as a resource of information, new cooking technique, here's an ingredient that you may have not seen before and here's how to cook with it. Just specifically within the food space. And evolving, constantly evolving and trying to be better. I think there's always room for improvement, always.

And do any of you use an editorial calendar?

I do, major.

I could tell you did.

Yeah.

Kelly, you have to, right?

I mean, I use a calendar.

I plan so many months out just because like I said, it's a business now and I come from an editorial background. I've worked at magazines and sites where we were on a 6-month lead time, so I think that's just been ingrained in me. It's been one of the most useful things from an organizational standpoint is to just know, okay, the next 3 weeks' posts are done. Let's start thinking about Valentine's Day. Let's start thinking about St. Patrick's Day, just to always be one step ahead.

Do you really have 3 weeks' worth of posts done?

I do. I'm Type A. I'm super Type A. I know, I know, but I get panicky if It's not that way. I test things so many times. Even if my photography is done for a post, I'll continuously be testing that recipe through the weeks leading up to it posting just to make sure that it's perfect. I do. I'll hang my head in shame.

No, please no. You should not. I'm the one hanging my head in shame.

On Google, it's easy because you could just use the calendar. Set up a separate calendar for whatever niche you're in and whatever clients you have even.

That's exactly what I do. I use the Gmail calendar. It's fantastic. Awesome. Alerts, it's amazing.

Can you talk a little bit more about an editorial calendar? Because I see more and more, I actually shared a template for one and I really honestly didn't know what it was but I thought people out there that were looking for it might enjoy it. But can you talk more about an editorial calendar and how to use it, why you would use it?

Go Kelly, go Kelly.

Oh yeah, I was going to say, Lynn, do you want to weigh in?

Go girl.

Okay, so basically an editorial calendar is basically, it can be adaptable to whatever is most comfortable to you. The way mine functions is I have all of my posts planned out. Right now I think it's about 2 months. They're not necessarily cooked and ready to go, but it's my thought process. That way, once you have things down on paper— and I think this is speaking to something else, Lene, that you brought up— once everything is out, you can rearrange and you can move things so that they're in the best spot possible. If I've shot a video for how to cook the perfect restaurant steak, I know maybe I should move that a week earlier so it's time to Valentine's Day, and then we'll move the cookie post a week later. It just gives you the ability and optionality to really have a strategy when it comes to content. From a food perspective, I'll have each post plugged into the calendar, and then I'll just start moving things. Something gets trendy, I'll try and move that recipe sooner so I can get on that wave from that trend. That's at least how I do it.

Are you using the Google Calendar for that?

I am, yes. It's amazing. I have it in my phone. I have my Google Drive on my phone. I'm one of these people at all times, all over. It's a comfort to me. I'm a huge planner. I'm a scheduler. It kind of eases your mind to know, okay, I've at least thought about the bigger picture. That's kind of too what I was talking about, looking long-term. Even if looking 3 weeks is long-term, at least you know from your content perspective where you're at and what you're going to produce on your site.

That's an excellent idea. Kelly and I, I can tell, and Lainey too. All of us really, we're planners, so it's easier for us to get our brains around using a calendar to plan things out. But even for those who are not, it's a place to do a brain dump like I said earlier. Dump it in that calendar, dump keywords, you can even dump links. If you find some really great content of someone else's that you want to acknowledge in your blog post, you can dump the link into that place in your calendar. It just frees you up. It frees you up to be spontaneous, to be organic, to relate with people in real time. When you're doing it, it's amazing. You can go through your whole year like that and just start out doing a macro version of the calendar and putting all the obvious holidays like Kelly mentioned, February 14th. All of the man-made Hallmark holidays you can put in there. Then also, like I was talking to Mia the other day, it's Fashion Week, it's food this, it's the Wine and Food Festival in Miami, all the Food Network stuff that's going on. You can actually really narrow it down to— oh look, I did a heart— and really to where you're going to love it. Where it's going to be something that is not a chore, that actually lets you be again Be who you are, be yourself, and make it happen for yourself without it being hard. It doesn't have to be hard.

You know, Lynne, one of the things that I do is I put all my notes and links and all that kind of stuff, I actually put it in Evernote and I build folders for all my topics that I am doing, for all my projects and different things like that. I do the same thing. I'm a GCalendar girl too. I love it. Kelly, I'm the same way. I live on this thing.

Thing.

All the time I'm like, are you going to pay attention to me? No. What's going on in my community?

Hold on.

I can yell that to my wife as well. You put that down.

My family's like, my famous thing is one moment please.

I always say hold please. Hold please.

Check please.

I'm guilty of the hand. I'm like wait, Jessica, wait, wait, wait.

Wait for it. Wait for it.

Yeah, but I've got to frame phrase that shot.

That was perfect.

I'm going to screenshot that later.

But I do use Evernote and I absolutely love it. I mean, I've taken all my Word documents and my Excel documents and I'll write a post in Evernote and then I'll put it on my blog and then I'll actually re-copy my entire blog back over my Evernote notes on that blog so it looks perfect in my Evernote. So if I ever want to change my blog and don't want to change all my content over and all of that, it saves all the links, all the links to the images. I love it. I'm addicted. I love Evernote.

You know, there are so many— that's a really good— when you tap into a professional who does this for a living, you get those tools. Tools, because there's no reason to suffer or to struggle. The tools are out there.

Yeah. Another one I use for link grabbing is Instapaper. I love Instapaper. It's an app on your phone and it's a Chrome extension. It's free. It's a free Chrome extension, but the app is a cost. You can grab any link. You can grab any screenshot URL, basically.. So when I don't have time to read an article or post in Google+, I'll go back to the original post and I'll actually grab a whole Google+ post page so I can see. I'm like, I don't have enough time to read this whole thing right now and the article attached, but I want to read it later and I want to make sure that I can dive into it. So I just Instapaper it, saves it, and I'm on to my next thing. It's amazing. And you can organize—

Easy peasy.

Yeah, and you can organize all your content that you grab in there as well. You can really marry your Evernote management and your Instapaper management with your calendar and it just makes life easy.

That's a beautiful thing.

I know, I know. That's my idea.

I love it. I love being organized. I'm OCD. I drive people crazy.

That makes 2 of us.

We have one other question here I want to throw out. It's from Gail Harris. Says, Lynn, is being comfortable in front of the camera strictly a matter of experience, or do some people have it and some not, assuming that one has something to say?

Gail, it's a really good question. I think it can be learned. So in my past life, I used to be kind of a motivational speaker, and I would list on the board, you know, what characteristics you think of in a successful person and what is learned and what can be learned and what is just you either have it or you don't. I think that can be a learned skill. I think that it just takes practice, preparation, and doing it, really doing it, being in the thick of it, like I said, day in and day out, being in the trenches, being who you are and doing your work.

Okay, sounds good. I have one comment here from Thomas, and he says, the more Kelly speaks, it becomes clear that she is more than just a cook but a social media guru. As Mia Voss would say, I am bat crap crazy about listening to Kelly's publishing and social media knowledge.

Me too. I'm flattered. Thank you so much, Thomas. I appreciate it. Well, I love sharing my knowledge with other people because so many people have helped me get to this point that I'm at, and I'm all about paying it forward. So whoever I can help out in return, I'm all for it. So thank you so much for the compliment.

Very good. Now we're going to— we're just about running out of time here. We're going a little past. Everything has been so, so much information here, and thank you all. But real quick, we're going to go through— it was supposed to be Blogging, Branding, and Marketing, Oh My, today. And I don't know if we talked a lot about marketing, but can you give us some few marketing tips? We'll go down the panel before we say goodbye. Kelly? You want to share some marketing tips with us?

Yes, the biggest marketing tips I have have to do with photography. Just, we all know the power of Pinterest. I think too that the photos in the food space can really drive traffic to your site, so I try and invest a lot of time and effort into photography and to visuals. So I would say if you can kind of strengthen your photography skills, if you're in the food blogging space, you'll really see a change in traffic because people will be more inclined to share your content Also, just don't be afraid to submit to sites like Food Gawker and Tastebotting and all those other sites because you can get a fair amount of traffic referred back from those sites. It just helps grow your brand and get more people to know where you're blogging at.

Horizontal or vertical?

Oh, I'm all about the vertical. Vertical flies on Pinterest. I'm all about the vertical.

Okay. Lainey, any tips you'd like to leave us for marketing? You're muted.

Come back, Lainey.

Come to us. Walk to the light.

I forget that I'm muted because I'm just ready to go. I shared a post from Belle from Buffer yesterday. It was the best thing I could probably ever say. You'll have to go back to my thread to find the article.. But it was basically sell what your product is going to make— how is it going to make you awesome? How is my product going to make my client awesome? Don't sell the product. Sell how it's going to make them awesome. The title of the image was a Mario image. It was the best thing. It was Mario Flower Power and the Flower Power made Mario do awesome— like I'm awesome and I do rad shit. I was like, my My product is awesome and I can make you do rad shit.

I love it.

So that's my marketing tip.

Thank you. Lynn?

Well, look guys, I got to say, and this isn't always a popular opinion, but no big deal. It's all marketing. It's all marketing. Blogging, branding, it's all marketing. You're marketing yourself every minute of every day by showing up in the world. As Jonathan Becker said yesterday on the interview with Brian Kramer, who is one of the CEOs that I idolize. You know, he said marketing is the glue. Marketing is the glue in any organization. So it comes from the inception of the idea, from having a creative idea to the engineers and the geeks, you know, developing the idea or whatever it causes to make that. And the marketing is the glue that gets it from where it's just an idea to the end user or the customer. So really It's all marketing. It's all marketing.

Thank you. Mark, any thoughts on marketing?

Absolutely. Mine is going to be very, very simple. Brand yourself. The last blog post that I actually did on my personal blog is about just that. Brand yourself. Let people know who you are, and then they'll come after what it is that you represent. So I would definitely say brand yourself.

Amen.

Okay, so that about wraps it up for Good Day Google+. It's been an excellent time here. We discussed a lot of things. Thank you all so much for coming today, viewers and my guests.

Thank you.

Thanks, Seth.

My pleasure. I'm glad you all could come. And so stop by and see us again, and we're going to have another Good Day Google+.

Bye-bye.

And I can't—