Derek McGowan

Hey guys, welcome to Coaching with Chris. Excited, uh, today. I love talking with great originators across the country. Uh, this one's a little special to me because he's in Kansas City. I was born in Kansas City, uh, kind of grew up, uh, a little bit, I would say, in the summers in Kansas City. And, uh, just absolutely killing it. Social media on point, team on point, uh, overall top originator in the country. And he's doing it as a broker, which I think is probably, uh, something in its own elite league. And, uh, Derek, are you, are you on here? There you are. Oops, you're muted.

Now I got you. One sec. Okay, me two seconds here. You're good. Is it on? Yeah, you're good. Beautiful. Jesus, please.

You're fine, fine. Look, this is how us originators roll. We got— we're juggling things, we're fixing things. I told all my originators this week we need to track how many things we fix in a week. If we're not fixing enough, we need more business. We're fixing too much, something's off in our team. And, uh, uh, I can't be too far off on that, so I'm going to come up with the fixer tracker Uh, so that we can measure our fixes. But Derek, uh, Kansas City, did you grow up, were you raised there, were you been there your whole life? Like, kind of give me the story of your, your life and how you got into this crazy world of mortgages.

Yeah, um, so like many, um, you know, I, I don't think any of us grew up thinking we'd be just a mortgage pro, um, but, uh, we all somehow some way found ourselves here. Um, from Kansas City, yes. Um, you know, I played baseball through the years. I'm a big sports guy, so that took me to some different places, different cities, different relationships, uh, you know, that along the way. Um, you know, so I feel like that's a big foundation of me, just a big team player type thing. I'm big on that team aspect, which I think sports in general and business, there's a lot of parallels there.

Yeah.

And, um, and one of those where it's like, you know, you, if you work hard on something, you can get a reward from it. And I think from a young age, that kind of was instilled in me, that the more you put into something, you know, the, the more you get out. And I just was looking for a platform, I guess. So once the, the old baseball career dwindled down— I mean, I played through college, played a year and a half minor league, and then had to get a real job. Um, and, um, that brought me kind of full circle back to Kansas City. You know, that was home base for me. And, uh, I knew some other guys jumping into the mortgage world. I'm like, well, I like numbers, I like talking to people, and, uh, hey, you're telling me I could work from wherever I want to work from as long as I have my laptop and Wi-Fi? Like, I'm, I'm in on that deal. That seems kind of cool. And, uh, looking back, they jumped back into what they were doing before. They went back to like car sales or whatever, and then I'm still here just figuring it out day by day, year by year in the, in the mortgage world.

So did you start in mortgage right in 2016-ish, or when did you start? Just kind of give it like a time frame of how long you've been doing it.

Yeah, yeah, so 2016. Yeah, 2016 I, uh, jumped on to the mortgage place in town that was hiring, um, hiring newbies, um, because I feel like back then it was more of a normal market. And I mean, it wasn't like now, people are just letting people go, but, um, Um, so yeah, just popped in the place that was hiring. Um, didn't know an FHA from a VA from the next loan, and they put me on a 580 to 620 credit score FHA team. Um, looking back, I'm like thankful for it, but I didn't know what the heck I was signing up for at the time. I'm like, hey, we need some more people to deal with, you know, fixing problems, kind of like you're saying. And, uh, so kind of, you know, like grinding my teeth there and figuring it out. So yeah, just 2016, then you know how it goes, like you do something okay here, an opportunity opens up, and just kind of grab the next one that next door that opens, kind of makes sense, go for it. And, um, you know, quite a bit of shuffling around from there. Sure.

What are you averaging right now in closings a month?

Yeah, uh, last month we did 36 closings. Um, you know, it's, you know, grateful for it. It's definitely not where we want to be either, but it's one of those it's never going to be enough, um, kind of thing. But Um, you know, I think I have that terrible disease myself. Hey, that's why you are where you are. I mean, yeah, that's—

it's, you know, 36. You got 30, you're doing 36, uh, closings. And what does a team look like? Because, Derek, here's what happens. Originator that wants like that next step and like getting to that next step or getting to 30 loans a month, it's a big step. And I'm sure it didn't just grow in. And so let's like back this in to be able to help originators across the country be able to kind of like step through Derek's journey of you built this team because obviously you can't close 36 loans yourself. And like, walk me through the journey of building this team, and then today, ending with today, what does the team look like to be able to provide that?

Yeah, no, that's a good question. So, um, I mean if we flash back like 3 years, that's I think was a big pivotal moment there. Um, I was on primarily the, the retail consumer direct side of things for from 2016 through 2021. Um, and for me, well, I think we all know during the COVID years, um, during the COVID years certainly, you know, they kind of put things to the test on, um, you know, bandwidth. I mean I think we could all look back and certainly say that, you know, great years, a lot of business done for everybody. But then I also look back like, I missed a lot of business too. There was so much I couldn't get to. I know that. And I felt like the first few years of my career, I focused so much— I tried to focus so much on the customer experience. Like, I want these people to come back, say, you know, like we all do, say a good word about me at the cookout or holidays. And then I would go to market these people, and there's a little bit of that while we're still getting new leads coming in from consumer direct. I'm like, this is just a broken— I don't have a system. I don't have a— I'm just trying to grab what's falling out of the sky, and there's so much falling on the ground. So that's where I'm like, all right, I need to take a step back here and reevaluate. So I mean, during COVID years, we was doing like $130, $140 million a year with— by myself. And I was like, this also isn't sustainable. This also is not a— right, I'm gonna just run this into the ground. Yeah, it was not— it was not a healthy time at all. It was just— I was known for having a laptop wherever I was, whatever I was doing. I was on the phone or laptop nonstop, which Don't mind working. That was a little overkill. So, all right, let's do this better. What's better for the consumer? It's more sustainable, so I could do this for a while. Um, so I, you know, shuffled around. I did, um, you know, I found Cordis and Nexa in the beginning of 2022. So I've been there a little over 3 years. Um, so that's where it certainly— in the broker world, I kind of just dove headfirst into the wholesale broker channel, where I think at that point I had an idea, certainly. I mean, I'm still figuring out exactly what I want every, you know, day to day, what's the next piece. But it just opened up like the entrepreneurial mindset, or like, okay, if I have this problem, I can go solve it today. I could go start working on it today and implement it and try to fix it. So I started off with one LOA, um, you know, a loan officer assistant, um, back in 2022. And it was kind of like just tag teaming things. And then it got to where, okay, we're both pretty busy, let's get the next one, the next one. Okay, that started kind of growing as, you know, because the more time I get, I'm like, I'm just going to reallocate that back to let's go get more deals and more relationships and follow up with our clients, just pour it on them. And it's kind of just been the formula of give me some bandwidth, I'm going to go reassign that right back to, to driving in more deals, which is the whole leverage thing of any business. But just kind of starting from a small level and having it grow, so each year was a little better, a little better. Then it got to the point where, like, man we have a handful of people that are doing kind of everything, kind of sub. Like, if I could grab the phones, I'm grabbing the phones. If you got it, you got it. Or, hey, you know, this app's in. Like, it was just a bunch of it when it was just 1 or 2 or 3 of us, it was okay. But when it got to be like me plus 5 people, it was— we're kind of stepping over who's got this, this next app, who's up next. It was like, all right, we need some order in the court of how we're doing this. Um, you know, my wife Tao certainly helped big time with that because I think she could kind of see it from a bird's eye view of being in the business. But, you know, I think coming in with a fresh look was a helpful thing. Like, I've been ingrained in this for quite a few years now, and I think I see it one way, and somebody else comes in with a fresh mindset and like, why are you doing it? Why are you doing it like this?

Right?

Yeah, you're right. I don't know why I didn't think of that, uh, because like a little bit of chaos going on here. I'm like, you know what, that's kind of how I feel here. Yeah, that's a good point. So it's like we just like find the people that are good at, you know, taking the applications, have them take the applications. Find the people that are better at structuring the file, have them structure the file. Like, oh, like the right seats on the bus type deal. So we kind of split it to where then people are getting more reps of what they like doing and what they're better at on the front end, the application side. And then others that are a little more seasoned in the industry, that they're building and structuring the files, and I kind of will jump in as I'm needed. And when I'm not needed, I'll go out and get more deals. So that was kind of the flow for a while there. And then we've evolved it to where it's always like, what's the next pain point? And certainly, well, heck, I mean, you've obviously built, you know, a very good business. And, you know, I'm sure you see like the things you were thinking about on year 1 or 2 or 3 are totally different on year 7, 8, 9. It's just different struggles, different things as you build it on up. So certainly in that moment, it's like, that was all I could think of. So let's just get the immediate stuff off my plate. And then it was like, okay, cool, that's kind of handled. But then, oh shoot, there's fires. Inevitably things happen, plans change during a mortgage process, and who's going to talk to them? Who's going to solve the problem? And that's where I'm like, man, now like a lot of the big— a lot of the things are handled, but now I'm just jumping to fires. Like, because there's just more volume. If you get 30, 40 loans in the pipeline, there's just— they're going to be some fires. Try to do it right or whatever, things happen, you know, life happens, plans change with people. And So that's where we kind of evolved it up where we're, you know, we've been kind of grooming like even a manager role to like, all right, you, you help put out the fires, like at the extra layers, like, but keep building it up from there.

So, um, do you separate out then your LOAs by they're managing each so many leads a piece, or, and they take the file to close and work with the processor, or do they do different parts of the process so that then it goes to the processor? Like, how's your structure to these LOAs?

Yeah, um, so in the earlier stages of it, uh, this is, uh, 2 years ago, 2, 3 years ago, I had where they kind of did all of it all the way through. I thought that made total sense in my head at that time. I think it did. But then, um, people started getting kind of stretched thin on that a bit, and it was very hard to hire because they had to hire like a unicorn that could do all those things, right? They're good on the phone, they can sell to people, but they're also structured and dialed in because they can structure it. They can— they know what documents to get. They're good at putting out fires. And I'm like, I mean, sure, we all would love a million of those people, but that's tough. Or, hey, you do these couple— you do the front end, you take the application, you're good at overcoming objections. I'm going to pour into you and give you tips and tricks. This is how we overcome objections. Hey, uh, you know, the pre-approval specialist, the back end of our team, Hey, you've been in this for a while. Some of them have like a processing background, like you know how to structure a file, you know what documents are needed, um, still be personable, but you don't have to do as much of the hardcore sales. That's kind of done up front for you. Like our marketing's warming them up, the front, you know, our application folks, you know, convert them. You're— you just sit in this little eye of the storm and collect the docs, make sure the files are dialed in. And then we did, um, for the processing side You know, because I also kind of need our, our back— our pre-approval specialist with capacity just to get the next, because we're firing new applications into them each day, um, where we have a pipeline manager on the back end where his job is to kind of be the glue in between once they go under contract to close, let our processors process. Because I certainly noticed that was a growing pain for us where You know, we have, we have 2 and kind of a 3rd processor that's plugged in, that the 2 that just kind of are dedicated to us full-on. But then, you know, they're each closing 18, 20, 25 loans a month sometimes. That keeps them pretty busy, keeps one processor pretty busy when they're somewhat customer-facing. Um, and then clients have questions, they call the processor because that's kind of where we try to direct traffic. Well, then that processor can't process all the whole rest of the pipeline while they're on that call. Operations just shut down. So I'm like, I need somebody. It can't be me for everything. Like, I don't mind hopping into the stuff I need to hop into, but I need a person. So that's where we graduated one of our LOAs up to, hey, you've got the— you're the glue in between. Try to be the buffer so the processors can process. You can help walk through some of the questions on it. It's just the next little piece to place together.

Oh, that's cool. So you have how many LOAs and how many processors today?

Yeah, so we have 2 on the— 2 application, um, specialists, 6, um, pre-approval specialists, and then 2 to 3 processors. Have a plug-in third processor.

Sure, sure. Wow, big team. They in the office or are they all remote, or how does the team structure? So like, how do you stay all connected? That has to be— I mean, you got a big team, you got a big engine, a lot of moving parts. I'm assuming lots of leads. Uh, what— how is the office structure?

Yeah, so we are fully remote. Um, you know, I'm physically, you know, kind of split time between Kansas City and Arizona. But, um, you know, so we have, you know, 2 LOAs in Kansas City. They still work remote. I— we started it that way And then I'm like, oh my gosh, I could find so much better talent if I just widen the search and I'm not confined to just whatever city it is, I'm not confined to one area. So widen the scope there. We've been able to hire from coast to coast. It gives good coverage to different time zones so we can stagger the coverage throughout the day. That's been kind of a little built-in benefit to it. Then it's all, there's pros and cons, you know, that's the benefit. The other side is the office environment, like how do you replicate that? Because I certainly felt like when I was in the office back in the days, I learned so much just by overhearing, like just the chatter. And oh wow, they said that on the phone, that was, that was good, I never thought of that, like I should make that my own. And, um, so we've tried to replicate that where honestly our day looks something like this, where we all have, uh, we use Slack and we're all on, um, an ongoing team call throughout the day where you know, everybody's kind of muted doing their thing, which would be kind of the equivalent of shutting their office door, making their call, whatever. But the second we need something, just shoot a message and they pop, you know, unmute themselves, or just holler at them. So we have really quick interactions there. Um, we've certainly tried it where— because I know sometimes that's, that's a whole lot to try to explain to an oncoming LOA, like, hey, you're going to be on a, on a camera call kind of throughout the day. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Some are like, what the heck? I, I did a coaching thing, um, a while back with a group of LOs, and they recorded the whole like hour segment. It was me going through a CRM. So I used that to explain to my LOAs, like, this is what it is here. You can just see it for yourself. It's not funky. I'm not— I don't have time to sit there and watch what you're doing all day long. I trust you, you know, you've got all the resources, you know what you're doing. But I promise, when you need something, you're going to be happy that there's a whole lot of help right there on the call, readily available. And we tried it in the past where everybody kind of was able to be off of the call, but then a client calls in and somebody's on the phone, whatever, somebody grabs it. It— we're— it was clunky, it was a mess. Like, is the other person available? I can't tell. Very convenient when you can just look at the screen and see, oh, they are on a phone call. Like, hey, let me help you out. The better for the client experience, which at the end of the day, that's above everything else.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see that. So 30, 35 closings a month, what's your lead goal? Like, do you look at how many leads do you need a month to be able to continue to consistently close that? Uh, and do you work together to being able to generate these leads as a group? Do you take that burden yourself? Like, what does it look— what's the lead goal? And, and And what's your structure in making sure that you hit these leads?

Yeah, um, so I know that if I get a dozen leads a day, I'm doing, I'm doing good. That's my thing. Um, we, uh, I mean, 80% that's self-generated. I get, I buy a couple online leads just to get— I want to be able to give some referrals back, uh, to our Realtors. So that, that gives us a couple leads a day there. But the rest, I know I need to get about 10 of my own a day, and then we're doing good. I mean, I think we're, we're— and we've been able to kind kind of stay in that, in that level there, um, where— and I mean every business day. Then as far as the big thing, the big piece to that is, yeah, how to make sure I'm doing that. And it's— I've had to get really particular with my time, like anybody does. I'm sure you're— I'm sure you have your day mapped and this is how it is, and more or less it kind of has to follow that. Um, so I've had to learn to say no a lot more, which is tough. Not naturally how I want to do it, but I've learned like it's, it's the the only way to sustainably do it. Um, where, yeah, I just, I have a time block on my calendar where this is my, this is my outbound lead generation time. I have like, I put like 2-hour blocks. I have to at least hit one of them throughout the day. I have to. It doesn't matter what's going on, the world can be on fire, I gotta make my calls. I need to check in with my Realtors, I need to check in with clients after closing. Those are my big things. Um, but I want to make sure I'm talking to my Realtors each month, the ones that send us business. I want to make sure they're not forgotten about. Um, I want them to hear from me. That's something I don't want to delegate. I think that's, that's not fair to them at all, right? They're trusting me with their baby. I need to have the respect to make sure I always have time to, to call them. And, um, and a lot of those you could just discover, you know, transactions will go by, you think it all went smooth from your point of view. Hey, it was all great. And there was one silly— I had a call last week with a realtor, a good realtor of ours that, uh, you know, we do a good amount of business with. He's all usually seems good. And I could tell something was just off. Like, he's usually all bubbly, and he was just a little bit dimmer. And I'm like, hey Mark, what's up, man? Everything good? Well, the last closing, I just kind of wanted to talk about— what's up? The funding on the closing, one of the documents was sent in fuzzy to the funding department, and they kicked back to his title company, just said get it a cleaner copy. And that delayed closing a few minutes, and he just didn't like that. I'm so sorry about the fuzzy document. Um, let me know next time, dude. I'll just— I had no idea that was even a problem. I had no idea that was like a lingering thing in the back of your mind. Like, hey, how about I call your title lady and just let her feel heard? That, hey, I got you. I'm sorry that the funding department didn't like the document, whatever. But it's— to me, maybe it doesn't seem like a big deal, but it was to him. That's what mattered. Discover that and not like brush it aside and have my regular calls and just get us back on the right track. There's so many lines that can be crossed.

How many realtors— well, let me go back. How many markets are you working? Are you working Scottsdale and/or Phoenix, whatever that area, or— and Kansas City? Are you working multiple areas, or do you concentrate more in one area than another? Uh, at 36 closings, obviously you've got a bigger net Uh, and that's one thing I appreciate about you, uh, is that you do sweep a big net, but you actually work the net. Uh, and so where do you concentrate for market rate-wise?

Yeah, um, so we've hit Kansas City hard, um, the last few years. Definitely, um, I can tell it's kind of cool to see where, you know, 3, 4 years ago we'd be making calls and like, who the heck is McGowan Mortgages? Who are you? Quick hang up. Yeah, I don't know nothing. Like plenty of lenders calling me, um, and a lot of those conversations have kind of shifted to like, oh yeah, I saw your stuff, saw your video, saw your whatever, yeah, it's cool, okay. They'll give you the time of day. So we, you know, put a lot of, a lot of emphasis on that. Obviously that's my hometown. Then, you know, from there we've definitely tried to branch out. So we've tried to tap in a little bit to the Phoenix market. St. Louis is right next door, so that's close enough where, okay, that's a whole nother market that we haven't tapped into. So the last year we've been putting a lot of focus on on St. Louis. Um, I've had a couple LOAs that are in the, uh, they're near Destin or Navarre, Florida, in the Panhandle. So even just having like boots on the ground, I was like, hey, that's an easy conversation because I understand agents want to feel connected and that there's somebody local there. Okay, I've got people there. Like, we're coast to coast, but like we have an emphasis in your town. And, um, some of it's been trying to find markets that I can tell they haven't seen what we have to offer on the broker side. I'm like, okay, this— that's where it started to click a little. So there's certain little markets I've found that, like, okay, this— I could— in talking to some of the realtors, some of them are just naturally off of the deals, like, that we just so happen to get people reaching out from online, social media, whatnot, and just latching on to that realtor and building a relationship because, hey, I've got an opportunity. It's, you know, It's wild how much they actually pick up the phone when you have a deal of theirs. Of course, um, right, they have something to talk about. And using that platform to just then sprinkle in our stuff of what we do and how we do it different. And after hearing that from a few agents in different cities, I'm like, oh, they have no idea. This is like foreign language, some of the stuff we could do on the broker channel. I need to start focusing here. So we've been trying to do that more and more now.

I'm a new LO, 3 or 4 years in, and now I'm gonna hire my first hire. You've went through this. You—

we—

I, I can tell, you know what I mean? You— we, we both— you and I both learn through mistakes. We learn through hiring right, hiring wrong. You're like, oop, got it. Uh, what, what advice would you give this, uh, this originator that's starting to build a team?

Yeah, um, so I feel like, um, I definitely had similar— quite a few similar conversations with LOs. They're like, yeah, what's my first step? What's my first piece to this whole puzzle? Because again, I'm like, a couple years ago I had one, you know, and just— it was just necessity. We needed the next, we need the next. Um, we literally have a new LOA this morning, so we're literally actively still trying to grow, um, with it. So I think the biggest one, like, now it's not as stressful because I could see the reward. Yep, I'm picking up an extra salary, but it's going to unlock me for this much more revenue, and that's a win. Easy trade-off.

Good advice, by the way. The more you hire, the more you've made.

100%. If you do it halfway okay, if you kind of, yeah, do it halfway right and give them the thing. Yeah, that's the whole, like, they— there should be kind of a quota on that person to bring in. You know, I got this person, that should bring me 5 closings this month. That type of idea.

Yeah.

And obviously that should warrant this more than warrant the salary. Um, but I think the big thing is just that initial cost. I feel like for a lot of LOs that, you know, they're not accustomed to having to pay anybody. Um, so for that, like, if you can find— I feel like if you can find a good virtual assistant, that's the easy first middle ground. Um, there's a lot of little, a lot of tasks that you know, think of all the— think of myself included— all the closings that people have had over the years they just don't ever follow up with. They don't ever call them. You could give a decent script, give a little bit of training to a virtual assistant at a very affordable price, and it's great to them. Like, they're grateful, it's good money, and, you know, to them, and they could call those people, they could follow up, they could help you with your emails. You know, sure, you got to do a lot of the heavy lifting, but still, I think for the very first step, if you didn't have to do a lot of just the the little tasks that none of us want to do but have to be done— cleaning the inbox, quick responses to some of the basic text messages, whatever it might be, following up with past clients. I think that's the easy one. Start to get some traction and then maybe go for the, the actual LOAs.

You know, Josh asked a question in the chat that said, what is the role and what should it be doing, uh, uh, talking about LOAs? And I'm going to simplify this question for you a little bit. Top 2, top 2 job duties that the very first LOA should do. So number 1, you already said it, follow up, to be able to assist and help you and follow up. What would be the second one, do you think, that would be a great job duty for a beginning LO hiring their first LOA?

Yeah, certainly. Um, so yeah, you mentioned the, the follow-up just on like past clients, that type of deal. And I mean, I, I guess depending on the lead flow I don't ever want a phone call to go to voicemail. Like, I hate that, um, that— because you're losing— I can think of so many times we've tried to send referrals to realtors, and it's crazy that if you're not actively doing a deal with them, we've had times we call 8, 9, 10 realtors. We're like, guys, what's going— I, I've got business money on the line trying to hand it to you. And okay, yeah, go to the next one, we'll go to the next one. Who's going to pick up? I don't ever want like that to be us. I think you just never know.

So do you have a team phone to solve that problem, or how do you do that? Because you couldn't use your personal phone, right?

I had to get that up a while back. Yeah, I had to just direct everything to the team line. Um, I literally got a text message overnight from a referral to my personal phone, which is cool, and I let them know, hey, thanks so much. By the way, I'm going to message you back on my team office line in just a second from this number. And that way I sent them a text, I threw them in our CRM, and that way they probably are responding right now and the team can help handle it from there. I got them in our ecosystem and they can, you know, I'll circle back around in a bit and make sure it was handled. But you know, that way it gets it on the team's radar cuz that pings everybody when that person responds back. So it's kind of throwing it over to that side of the lines is what we have now. Same thing with the team phone as well, where, you know, if you're on a call, you're doing whatever it is, somebody's calling in, that LOA could answer that phone.

Someone else can see it. Is it all on their computer then so they can see, or is it, uh, someone physically having a phone?

Yeah, so it's on the computer, but also, uh, we— I mean, for example, I use RingCentral. There's a lot of different phone apps, but you just download the app, so it's on your phone. It's on their actual— everybody from my team just uses their actual phone. It's just, if it's ringing on my phone, it's ringing on theirs as well. We even kind of staggered it now to where it rings to them first and then it hits me. So usually I got that buffer.

I'm gonna get asked, because you've mentioned it a couple times, and, and you work for an amazing company with amazing leadership. Are, are you using your own CRM? Are you using the company CRM? Like, what are you using to work to be able to manage this super engine?

Yeah, um, I think every— I think every LO, if you're taking it seriously, should have your own CRM. Um, I think just in the event— and, and Cordis would say the same thing, um, with that— I think you should have your book of business. I think there's just too many times people have— I don't know, things happen, whatnot, and really you got to protect that. That's your lifeline. That's your everything in this business. Um, plus I like being able to have the flexibility to make it how we want to make it. So Um, I've tried different CRMs. I've tried, I mean, big and small, and Salesforce, and that was, I mean, way more than I needed. Um, because like the golden rule, like, people use the CRM you're going to use is the one, like, that's the one you use. Like, however, I mean, if an Excel sheet works for you, that's better than nothing. Yeah, you have something to track. I personally, we use monday.com. Um, that's To me, which I, I— some people in the mortgage industry have now started using it a little. We kind of throw that out a little bit. I think it's not a mortgage-specific CRM, so thanks a lot. It gets kind of overlooked, but, um, it's the best, simplest task organizer that I've come across. It's like a very, very graduated Excel sheet with a lot more functions and color-coded and automations. It's just very simple. Then I pair that with Bonzo for outbound texts and emails. So they talk to one another. So we change the status, whatever. But that's, it's simple. I like it to where if I have an idea, you know, Tal, my wife has an idea, somebody on the team has a good idea, hey Derek, I think it should do this. I could just, we could just go do it. I don't have to set up a call with like the web developer, whatever. I don't wanna wait 2 weeks to do it. I wanna do it now. Like let's do it now. So it's simple.

So it's connected to your LOS, uh, and then on the other side it's connected to Bonzo.

Correct, correct. So one thing moves, they all kind of— they all move.

Yeah, but the information it's grabbing out of the LOS first, or— I think this is important to understand for a lot of LOs— of how you're doing it. Are you starting out in the CRM first, then moving to the LOS, or are you starting in the LOS and then moving to the CRM?

CRM first. Yes, CRM first, because I want to follow— some people, it's not always just a one-call close, they're filling out an application. Um, a lot of people, they want to have a conversation with somebody, they want to make sure they want to apply with this place. Maybe they saw something that got them, you know, to us. That's my job, is to grab the attention and get them to us, but then A lot of times I feel like you have to kind of warm them up. They want to have a conversation to feel comfortable. Um, if we're waiting to put them into the LOS, that's once you have an application. And I'm big on us pre-application following up. Like, I don't know if there's stats on, like, sometimes you got to call people 5, 6, 7, 8 times follow-up before they actually apply. And I think a lot of LOs, they call a time or two and they don't have a follow-up system. If they have issues with that, like then things slip through the cracks. So I'm big on making sure right into the CRM.

So what's the general rules? A new lead comes in, has to be contacted how soon?

Right away.

Right away. Yeah, there's not even like 2 minutes, 5 minutes, it's just—

it's instant. Yeah, the only excuse is if you're already on the phone with the lead and everybody happens to be on the phone with the lead, I guess, but I'm jumping in. Like, we got to call it right away, like, respond to them, get immediate response. Yeah, like, every second, every minute's wasting time, money, you know, opportunity.

What's ideal to be able to get to app? Like, what's the percentage you want in leading your company from lead to app percentage, or time from lead to app? Do you look at it like that? I don't want to lead you into the question, I just want to understand how you think in being able to get it to an application.

Yeah, no, 100%. So if it's self-generated, I mean, I expect 50% plus because they're already warmed up, they're handed over, we built the relationship with the realtor. Why would they not? Um, they're, they're reaching out, they know why they're reaching out, like why they're doing it, right? Um, the, the online leads, which is like a, you know, 15-20% of the business, those, if we're hitting 25%, that's solid. That if we're getting 25% applications, that's, that's pretty solid. Close about half of those is kind of the gist of it, um, there. But yeah, no, so I kind of separate it two different buckets, um, you know, the, the organic referrals obviously much warmer, but those at least 50%.

Brad asked a question: how many times should I follow up with a client? I feel like I follow up too much. I'm like, if you got a restraining order, yep, you did too much. But short of a restraining order, I don't think you could follow up enough. But what's your thought process? Do you have a number that you kind of lead the team in and follow up on a lead to try to move them along?

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and, and I think it's something just to preface, like, I think that's something we can easily get in our own heads about too much, because if we do have a CRM, we do have like a regimented list, and we can see how many times we called them. Yes, we might see, oh man, this is the 7th time I've called them, whatever. They don't have that. I think sometimes you got to put yourself in their shoes. They don't know. They don't— I mean, yeah, oh, this person's called a few times, They're not writing down every time the date you called them. So again, like you said, yeah, unless you're getting a restraining order, yeah, you're, you know, sky's the limit. The way I do it with the team, first 3 days they call twice a day. So the first one immediately, and then call, switch the times up. People work, people have different schedules, different routines.

So find the time.

Yeah. So if that lead came in overnight, whatever, whatever it might be, we'll call them right away first thing. And then call them, you know, kind of towards the end of the work shift, 4 or 5 o'clock. And they'll— you just never know. I don't want to assume anything, but there's a good chance that they weren't available then, they're probably off work now. And then same thing tomorrow, let's mix it up, call them twice. And then the third day, and then I go 1-1-1. And then I push them out a week because I feel like the competition kind of falls off. Like a lot of people are bursting out of the gates, and then if they reached out to multiple lenders, which People do that sometimes. Those lenders will hound them the first couple days and then they go on to the next thing to hound. And I'm like, I'm gonna slip back in a week later and, hey, I'm back. That's also picked up some deals where we're the last one calling them. Um, yeah. And then if there's some white there—

great takeaway.

Yeah, everybody— and again, the big focal points right away, right out of the gates. But then I think the next trick is, yeah, the be the last one.

Yeah, let's, let's switch to social media. I mean, you've done a phenomenal job with your social media. Um, where do you feel like the turning point was where it started to actually generate leads for you? Or what did you do that you're like, oh, this— I made this shift, it worked— that an originator could go back today and go implement that could help them in their business today?

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And, um, you've also— you've done a great job. I feel like I've gotten to know you from your social media.

And, and, uh, you noticed that I was just a big goofball.

Hey, that works. That's awesome. That's great. It's fantastic. It catches my attention every time. Like, what's Chris up to in the office? He's like, water guns today, or balloons, or whatever. Yeah, yeah, it's awesome. But that's also— that shows like the culture that you guys have. Like, you know, people that have never— they don't know, that don't know anything otherwise, they like, oh wow, I they could put their finger on, like, that's the culture, just from the little short clips along the way. So no, that stuff's awesome to see. Um, that kind of is the whole point, like, people get to know you before they actually know you type deal. Get a little, you know, input. What's your, you know, your personality like? How, you know, how do you interact? Hey, you know, if I were— from, from our viewpoint, like, hey, if I were to reach out to Derek, how is he? Is he, you know, kind of a jerk and kind of standoffish, or is he— yeah, he seems okay, seems like a pretty mild manner, whatever. People— at least I think you'll attract your right people. Some people just, yeah, oh, that's not my cup of tea, they don't want to work. Okay, that's cool, and at least they know who I am. Um, but then also people kind of get to know me, and I certainly feel like what a lot of LOs— because I've had quite a few LOs that have asked about the social media piece, and I think again kind of being like the last one standing, that kind of mentality, it takes a while. Like, yeah, I don't I don't want to even look at my initial videos that I did a couple years back. They suck. I don't want to— like, hopefully Facebook deletes those or something. But, um, but they were, they were something. They started somewhere. We just picked up the phone and started figuring it out of what works. And I know my wife always give me crap because, like, the first few videos were probably 3 to 5 minutes long. I thought that was important. I thought people wanted to hear that, um, you know, I thought, this is great information, they're all going to love this. And like, Nobody's watching it. Okay, yeah, you're right, I gotta switch. I gotta like compress this thing. So now it's just, you know, get it out. We didn't know it's compressing it down. Um, I think that's the thing. It's like anything that you do in, in life really, but certainly in business. Like, you could get ideas, you could listen to podcasts like this, you could go read online, what do people do for social media, what do you do? And then it's all different when you actually just do it. I think it's like, that's where you learn. You learn what works for you. Um, like, you're a lot funnier guy than I am, and you crush it at that. And, uh, you know, that people will gravitate, and they're bam, bam, bam, they're on it. Um, you know, that— so everybody finds their groove of what works. But I think it's just knowing that, like, the first 6 months or year, just go in with the expectation that you're not going to get anything out of it yet, and that's okay. Like, hopefully you probably will, you probably actually will, but just go with the expectation, hey, I'm just doing this. I'm gonna get better though, every day. I'm not gonna stop. And then I feel like it was kind of in that second year where the phone started ringing from random places, and the team was like, we just got a lead from TikTok from New Hampshire, um, you know, Wisconsin, like, whatever it might be. I'm like, I don't have family there. I don't think that's like a distant cousin. Like, okay, cool. No, they just saw your video on DSCR, whatever it was. Um, Oh wow, okay, that was from like months ago. Why? And that's where it started to click.

Um, so you know what I love about is your picture of the houses that are in contract from the weekend. Literally one of my favorites.

Cool, thank you, thank you. Um, Tao came up with that, honestly. She, uh, was like, hey, people— realtors kind of do that part of it, and we're like, well, we're helping finance the house, and that's like you know, some of them are cool houses, but also like that's showing people what's going on. And I think, you know, any kind of activity attracts other activity, really.

Yeah, yeah.

Showing that there's things happening, we are doing these things, um, they put people at ease that, you know, we know our way around a loan kind of deal. But yeah, it's just something to be different, I guess. That's also, I think, the fresh look, the fresh idea type thing. I think we get so ingrained in the mortgage world of this is how everybody else does it, this is the only thing we can find. Where she's like, Realtors are doing this stuff, why don't we do this? Crap, that's a great idea, we should start doing that.

I mean, you look like that, the expert, because you see all these multiple homes and you're like, this is where a lot of people are going, I should probably go there. That's what I feel like, uh, when I see that every time, and it's, and it's consistent. You're very good at staying consistent with your social media, but then you'll educate Uh, how do you pick your topics to continue to educate? Is it something that happened with a customer that you educated, or do you have a team that helps you put it together, or do you put it together? How does that come about?

Yeah, um, good question. So, um, I do kind of come up with most of them. Um, I've tried to be— not that it's easy or anything like that— I have a notepad always next to me where when things happen throughout the day or some events or some report comes out that changes the market Um, I kind of wanted— I don't— I know I've talked to some people or even some coaches that are like, okay, on Mondays you do this, on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, yeah, this type of topic. And that work— that's cool if they like— I honestly tried that and I went right back to like free-flowing with it. Like wherever it takes me, we'll do whatever we'll do. I don't want it to be the same type of thing every day by any means. Um, some educational, some like, hey, this is, this is this example that happened, um, with somebody, you know, with client, because I think people— stories sell. Stories make people like they could resemble that, they can, they can see themselves in that situation, or I'm kind of in a similar rut, and oh my gosh, they were able to help that person out. Okay, that's cool. Well, I might reach out to them. And it kind of encourages people to— yeah, I, uh, and I think what pinged with me was I, I remember talking to a realtor, a close realtor of ours, a couple years back. Um, he's like, you know, one thing I like about your your, your team is they don't, they don't give up on the client. They don't throw them away. There's so many lenders there for the low-hanging fruit, and if the client's approved today, they're— of course everybody's going to jump on that. But the ones that need a little help, and they're like— I feel like you guys had a client, you didn't even know it, but you had a client that you worked with where before, like, I had to talk them up. I had to talk you guys up to get them to even want to reach out because they said that they couldn't buy a house. They already knew they couldn't qualify. And the realtor's like, why, why are you— do you— you haven't even talked to the lender yet. How do you know that? Oh, well, 6 years ago I talked to a lender and they, they turned me down, so I can't buy a house. He's like, well, 6 years ago, like, you were working at a whole different job 6 years ago. You probably saved a few dollars in the last 6 years. Like, your credit's probably totally, like, different. What are you— but I'm like, wow, that's some of the basic stuff that we can think way above and beyond. And just pulling it back down to earth, it's like, wow, that's what people think. And that's in their head. Somebody told them no a while back, and they're not going to go buy. They just take themselves out, some out of the market permanently. So that's where some of the— once I heard that, I need to mix in some real life kind of examples, like, hey, we were able to help this client that was going through this, you know, holler if that's, if that's something that we can help you with, kind of deal.

That's cool. Yeah. Two questions left. I'll let you go. I know you got a busy day. Uh, number one is, is that How many social media posts do you try to do in a week? Do you have a number or do you just have a feel?

A number with a feel. Um, I definitely— I— the goal is to try to do a video every bit— every business day. Um, some weeks I do that, some weeks— this week I have not done that yet. Okay. Um, but if I get at least 3 to 5 videos out in a week, that's good, with mixing in the, the under contract post. That'll be a day or two, we'll lump together some contracts that came through. Um, and then we try to be better at, you know, really kind of branding some of the loan products we have too. And that's kind of the newer thing we're trying to do where I think some of the— like, you guys have your FastPass, that's catchy, that's good. I, that I, I'll— I remember that, like, that's easy. I'm like, there's so many products and things that we have amongst the wholesale world where I'm like clients don't know these things exist. So I'm trying to be better at how can we package that up, make it easy to understand, and have that be a post every week or so as well.

Yeah, we have all this mortgage terminology, right? But when we take that loan and we call it a name, that's what the consumer remembers. So I, I've had like over the years 4 different products be called the Dream Loan.

Yeah.

And the client calls, you know, and they'll be like, can I have the Dream Loan please? 'Oh, I don't know, let's see if you qualify or how— if it's the right loan for you.' 'Yeah, I just want the dream loan.' And, uh, they didn't have to know all the terminology, they just had to know dream loan, and it freaking works. I mean, you like inspired me just by saying that again, like, 'Yeah, Chris, idiot, remember the dream loan?' Uh, that, that was a really good, uh, next question was AI. Are you using any AI to do to support your team? And save you time.

Uh, yes. And I know you're pretty— from what I gather, what I understand, you're pretty, you know, cutting edge, or try to be at the forefront.

No guy trying to learn this stuff.

Yeah, it's a whole, whole different thing hitting our industry, every industry, but certainly the, the old mortgage world. Um, we are— again, I'm, I mean, I'm still figuring out like where all the places it could fit it in, but yeah, um, there's Yeah, I mean, we've had a lot of implementation and conversations lately where there's things as, I mean, I'm still hit or miss. I don't know if I want AI calling my clients. That's a big—

Me too.

I don't know, maybe in certain instances just where it leverages the team to like funnel them back, maybe. But that's the big hump I gotta, I don't know, I'm not over that hump yet. But reviewing documents, That's why the heck not. Like, we're looking into that actively. Like, why not leverage the LOA— the LOA's time and let them go be— do what they do on the phones and sell and help the client, but yeah, the backend's just taken care of? That makes total sense. No, no-brainer there. Less human error, um, on that. And even things as, as like minute as— we've got, you know, AI on our phone systems where it listens to every call that gets— that takes place, and it literally gives them coaching tips on it based off of— like, I was able to kind of, you know, hopefully the mold's okay, but they did a mold off of my calls. And hey, this is like how a call— the flow of it should be. Here's the things to ask. And did you hit those highlights? I don't care how you got there in between, but you kind of hit the big things on different types of calls. Because I'm like, I can't— it's so difficult to train 10 whatever, 10 people um, you know, you have a huge company, it's so tough to be on. You're never gonna know all the things that were said, right?

It's actually scary.

It actually— yeah, right, right. And even like, I, I had RingCentral for a while, it would just like kind of do a little recap, kind of a transcribe. That's great. I don't know, no time of the day to read transcripts of calls. But the coaching scorecard is pretty cool where it'll just say, hey, cool.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that, I'm gonna write that down, Derek, the AI coaching calls.

Yeah, I'll send it over to you. But yeah, it's, uh, that'd be—

that would be helpful for me.

At a glance, you can see it literally grades the whole team. It gives you like a weekly recap or a lifetime. I could pop in, it's like, this person's really good at overcoming objections, this person's kind of struggling at overcoming, this person like had a good, you know, customer support. Or like, they— I was able to pick the grading scale of what things I wanted to watch, and then I could click on it and it'll elaborate on what they did well. So I could train that, hey, listen to so-and-so's calls, they're doing a good job on this. So that's why I think all of us, like, we're still a human talking to the clients, but the human's being tweaked and coached. And like, me as well, I told the team, I'm in this with you guys, I'm not just on you, I want to get tweaked better. And, uh, so those—

because it takes out the offensive stuff. Like sometimes when you try to like say, hey, look, you kind of did that wrong, they become offensive right away instead, and then they won't learn. As in, this would— this doesn't seem offensive.

No, it sends them a message on the side just to them. I mean, I can see all of it but I don't know, whatever. But like, they— so it's not in front of the team or anything like that. They just get a personal message from the AI deal. This is, hey, you did a great job on these things. When the client said this, you could have responded with this. I'm like, that's, that's it. That's where AI could be useful, those types of things.

I love that.

I love that.

Hey Derek, thanks for being on Coaching with Chris today. You inspire me. Uh, I'm just super proud of you, of what you've accomplished in the short term. There's been originators been doing But the thing is, guys, Derek just does the work. Uh, he's disciplined, he, he thinks forward, he's willing to invest and build his team. And Derek, I, I just appreciate it. Keep the run growing, my friend. I can't wait to see what even next year looks like for you. You're gonna kill it.

No, I definitely appreciate that. Thanks for having me on. Um, thanks for doing this for LOs. This is the cool part of this whole, this whole industry where, you know, you You give us the platform to go and try to help others, and, um, and hats off to you. I mean, I know we saw— I saw you at, you know, the EPM event, for example. I thought that, just for what it's worth, I want to give a shout out to that. That's super cool to see because there's so many other industries or so many other mortgage companies that, I don't want to go to that mortgage company's event, what the heck am I going to get out of that? Like that closed-minded thing. And you're up there like part of the event on a panel, like supporting it for the community, for everybody. And you know, we all— everybody gets something out of that, you know. So that, that's cool. Like, that's what makes me, you know, definitely respect the heck out of what you're doing.

Thank you, Derek. Guys, I'm going to leave you with a message as we're jumping off here. You always have a choice in choosing an AMC. Here's an amazing company that Windsor supports. They've been good to me. I know they'll be good to you. Check out this message. Thanks, Derek.

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