146: Audience Research: AHA Moments in Copy Creation with Nadine Nethery

Foreign welcome to the Course Creators MBA podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Destiny Kopp and I help business owners increase the revenue with digital products and evergreen sales funnels. In this podcast, we go deep into product and marketing strategies for digital product creators. We cover everything from digital product creation, how to market and sell your digital products, and just as important, how to find your ideal customer. Let's jump right into our show and my special guest today is Nadine Nethery. Nadine is an audience driven copywriter and brand messaging strategist for female founders who want to intentionally attract, delight and retain their dream customers. Her strategic take on audience research, copywriting and messaging turns every brand touch point into genuine connections that drive sales. Celebrate loyalty and surround you with keen brand advocates who happily do the word spreading for you. And Ardane, I am so super excited to chat with you today. And we're going to be talking to copy that truly connects with our audience and customers. But before we get into all the questions I have for you, can you tell the audience just a little bit more about you and how you help people?

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me, Destiny. So good to be here. I am Nadine, as you said, I am a Sydney based copywriter and I help female founders with primarily, primarily website copy, email copy, sales page copy that really speaks to the core of their dream customer. So that copy helps them connect on a deeper level based on empathy rather than a hard sell. And I've been in business a little over seven years and over that time really have found my my niche in audience driven copy. I'm obsessed with audience research, having that as the basis to any of the copy and the words that I produce for my customers and other than just the copy, it really gives them aha. Moments beyond the words that I write for them. It helps them come up with all sorts of topics for their content for their marketing strategy and it often even shifts the approach to their positioning as well because it really helps them understand how they support their audience on a deeper level.

And I like what you said, that you focus on empathy and not hard selling because I don't think any of us who are listening here really want to go down that path of being known as somebody who's doing that hard sell all the time.

Yeah. And, but often I find it's that desperation. We don't really know how to sell in a way that feels comfortable and aligned with our brand. You know, we know we need to sell because we're businesses. But really lacking that insight and understanding about your audience is what often sends that down, that sends us down that rabbit hole of having to sell, sell, sell. So I love to flip the coin and make the audience front and center of the copy, the storytelling and the messaging to really help you step away from that, that hard sell and that yucky feeling that comes from constantly pushing that hard sell.

So I'm going to go in, just ask you to spill the beans here. Can you tell us what is the secret to copy that truly connects with our audience and customers?

Yeah, absolutely. So I alluded to it before. So rather than working with assumptions that we have about our audience and our offers and how we support them, it's taking a step back and really finding out the mindset and what keeps our audience up at night, up at night, and then joining the conversation that is already happening in their mind. So as consumers, we don't need to be sold to. What we need from brands is understanding and empathy. And how we can achieve that is by showing up with messaging and copy that really taps into that current mindset. And with mindset, I mean, objections, desires, pain points without agitating them too much, but really speaking to what's currently keeping them up at night where they want to be, ideally, that better future they're trying to get to and also addressing those objections that are potentially holding them back from taking action. And if we help our audience connect those dots and work out that it's achievable and that we are perfectly positioned to support them on that journey, then we don't have to push that hard sell. We can help them connect the dots and move them one step closer to being ready to take action with every email, every landing page, every freebie, even, you know, every social media post. So it's, it's about supporting them on that journey and giving them the confidence that we are what they need to reach and get to that better future.

So you, so you mentioned that we need to really get in there, understand their pain points, understand their objections and their mindset. But how do we go about getting to that? I mean, we might think we know what that is, but how do we truly do, you know, go about discovering that?

Yeah, it's actually easier than we think. So often when you talk about audience research, people go, oh my God, I don't have time. I'm busy enough as it is. I don't need more on my plate. But the beauty of all these tech tools out there nowadays is that we can often automate that process and integrate it into our onboarding and offboarding processes. So obviously if you've never surveyed your audience before, I would absolutely start with a very strategic survey that you send out to your mailing list, your customer base, to really tap into their firsthand experience with you and your brand. Beyond that, as I said, I would incorporate very strategic questions into the onboarding survey just to capture that current mindset that's front of mind as people book you to support them with their business or in their lives. So you know, what made them reach out, what is keeping them up at night, what's the transformation that they're hoping to achieve. And then, then also once you hand over, let's say you're a web designer, you know, the fresh new website to them, I would again incorporate some very strategic open ended questions in the offboarding survey to really tap into that excitement, you know, that fresh website feeling. So, you know, how do you feel now that you've got a new website? How did that experience align with your expectations? And then this one is often forgotten. Probably around three months after handing over your deliverables, I would absolutely check in again, which you should do anyway as a service provider. But again, just ask them a few strategic questions to get tangible results that only happen a little while after you've handed over your deliverables. So tangible numbers when it comes to click through rates, conversions on their website, sales on their website, to really tap into that tangible transformation that came with your service and working for them. And the beauty of that is you can pick up the language that they're using to describe that transformation and that whole journey with your brand. And using that language in your copy in your messaging makes it a lot more tangible, relatable and real, and gets your reader to nod along. So rather than you pulling statements and taglines out of thin air, it means that your audience is doing the hard work for you. So your audience is telling what they're experiencing and how you can help them, and the transformation that you delivered. And piecing all that together in your messaging takes the guesswork out of your copy, out of your marketing, and it means that you're using words and language that really resonate with your perfect customer. And the beauty is, as I said, you just set aside time every few months to strategically sift through those survey responses that come in on autopilot with every new customer project and then take note of the objections, the pain points, all the things that I mentioned before, and keep adding to it. So you can then tweak your messaging or even if you're trying to launch new office, integrate that into the Copy for that.

And I love super simple. It is simple. I love the process that you just described about, you know, going and asking them questions once they're coming on board and then, you know, after you've done the website, you know, surveying them then, and then three months later going back and doing some more surveys and getting some more feedback from them. What if somebody's just starting out and they might not have a lot of customers to gather this from? Maybe they just have a home, you know, a handful. What would you suggest to them? Just get started. Or are there other places they can go to gather this information?

There absolutely are. So apart from making sure that you are setting yourself up to capture intel with every new customer that you work with, I would absolutely snoop around in a non creepy way in online communities. I'm sure you're part of, you know, Facebook communities where your ideal customer hangs out and you can absolutely post a link to a particular survey in that group to capture people that haven't necessarily worked with you, but who absolutely match your perfect customer and then leverage their experience even when with your competitors. So you can see how you are different, how you stand out and tap into the language there and you can absolutely, if you don't want to go down the survey rabbit hole, even just listening to the conversation. So take note of the questions that keep popping up, the answers, the solutions that people are offering, and again, make note of the way they phrase that mindset and the expressions. And then you can start from there and build up, you know, your audience intel once you have more customers to your name and then really tap into your point of difference and what makes you stand out from everyone else out there in your niche.

So good. That's good news for all of us for people out there who might just be starting. I'm going to switch gears just a little bit, Nadine. And you know, I want to talk about ChatGPT and as it relates to copy and just AI in general, because I know a lot of us have an AI writer or chatgpt on our computer all day long and we're using it. Can you talk about how we should use it and why is it still important to know our audience when we have tools like that available to us?

Yeah, absolutely. So ChatGPT and all the other tools are absolutely coming. So there's no denying that it's going to impact the way we are creating content and writing copy in the future, even for us copywriters. What I want to highlight though is that ChatGPT is meant to be A tool to support you on that journey. It is not capable yet, who knows what happens in the future. But at the moment, it is not capable to replace human interactions and your input and your unique take on your audience. So how I would use it is to help you with that dirty first draft you like to call it, even for ideation when it comes to headlines, taglines, where you might be stuck, where you want, just a little push to get you started and then make sure you are tapping into your audience intel. So if what ChatGPT is giving you simply is not connecting on a deeper level, it just doesn't hit the mark, Absolutely. Have a look at your audience insights and make sure you tweak the output and use the language that your audience is giving you. Or alternatively, you can absolutely use that research that you've done to better prompt ChatGPT as well. So tell ChatGPT firsthand what you've uncovered. So include the objections, the pain points, the desires in your prompt to make sure that ChatGPT is speaking directly to your dream customer. And I actually asked ChatGPT the other day around its limitations because I thought what better way to get a direct response than go to the source. And ChatGPT told me straight up that it is meant to be a tool. So it can't replace human interaction, human connection, because it simply can't feel empathy or emotions. And that is a huge deal. Breakout for copy. We all know copy that really connects with our audience and gets them to act is based on empathy, emotion, connection, storytelling. And ChatGPT simply can't produce that for us. Our opinions, our story, our lived experiences are uniquely ours. So yeah, it takes prompting the right way, but then also tweaking and infusing your personality to stand out from all the content. The middle of the road, mediocre content that is going to be hitting the market soon simply because it's so easy to get output from ChatGPT. So if you really want to stand out, if you want to connect on a deeper level and really push empathy, emotions, connections, I would absolutely do that groundwork. Get to know your audience and make sure everything that ChatGPT gives you is actually tweaked and adapted to speak to your perfect fit audience.

And I love the tip that you gave about putting the objections, the pain points and all of that audience survey or audience insights into the prompt to help, you know, to help kind of guide ChatGPT. And also the comment that you made about the fact that is AI writing tool, it doesn't have that empathy, it doesn't have that storytelling that you need to infuse in your copy. So thank you for bringing that up. Now, Nadine, any last minute tips for the audience before we wrap it up here?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think you got the point. But I'm obsessed with audience research and it is not complex. You would have seen that. Please do me the favor and take a look at audience insights and conversations that you've already had with your existing customers to get started or make a conscious effort to add sending out a survey to your perfect fit customer to your immediate to do list because it's going to blow your mind, it is going to shift the way you market and it is absolutely going to speed up how you create content, how you write copy and how you approach marketing in your business.

Take action. I was going to say Nadine, this conversation has definitely inspired me. I've done audience research in the past and you know, obviously I have a lot of knowledge of my audience, but I'm thinking I need to go back and do it again. How often do you suggest that we go back and do that research?

Yeah, I would definitely look at it at least every six months like a general survey if nothing has shifted in your business. But as a general rule, whenever you are considering launching a new offer, changing niche, adding a new type of audience to your into your business, it's always worth asking the right questions before you go down the rabbit hole and launch all your products. Launch a course because your audience can tell you what they want. They are more than willing to come forward with the goods because they want you to succeed ultimately. So tap into all their intel to create offers with ease and make sure they actually hit the mark. So yeah, just make it a habit. So anytime anything shifts in your business, anytime you have a big idea, tap into your audience and validate it before you spend hours, hours, hours wasting wasted on creating something that is not actually what your audience needs.

And I think I'm due for it. So you've definitely inspired me to do it. And Nady, can you tell people where they can find you if they want to do some audience driven copy? And I believe you free gift for them also.

Yeah, I certainly do. So the best spot to connect with me is via my website candocontent.com you can also track me down on Instagram, can do content and I have 10 free strategic survey questions for your listeners that you can grab via the link in the show notes and they are my actual questions that I use in a lot of my one on one client surveys. So they are very strategic, they're open ended and they get you all the juicy intel to tap in into all the things that I mentioned before.

Now are those survey questions ones that we can use to survey our audience?

Yes, absolutely. So they're for your existing customers and I've also thrown in nine bonus prompts for social media so question stickers to tap into your online audience in case you are just getting started and you want to quickly, you know, send check the mood around the room.

Well they definitely need to need to check that out and I know I will too. So Nadine, thank you so much for joining us today and just really reiterating how important audience insights is in our copy.

Thanks so much for having me. Destiny.

Thanks for listening all the way to the end. If you found value in this episode, I'd love a quick review on whatever podcast platform you're listening listening on. If you don't know what to say in the review, just say Destiny, I loved your episode on whatever topic you're listening to. This will help us get our content out to more people just like you. Have a great rest of your day and bye for now.