167: Behind the Scenes of my Website Copy Overhaul

Welcome to the Creators MBA Podcast, your go to resource for mastering the art and science of digital product entrepreneurship. My name is Dr. Destiny Kopp and I help business owners generate consistent revenue from their digital product business without the need to be glued to their desks, constantly live launching or worrying about the social media algorithms. I hope you enjoy our episode today. Hey there. I have a special guest with me today and I'm super excited to have this conversation with her. She has helped me so much with my new website copy, so I wanted to bring her on and we're going to have just a very informal conversation about the challenges that I was having with my website. So today I have Sarah Samples with me and Sarah is a copywriter and coach who helps impact driven entrepreneurs grow their influence by crafting compelling, authentic brand messaging. And she has helped me tremendously with this. But before we kind of get into the conversation, I want Sarah, if you could just take a second and tell the audience just a little bit more about you.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. And yeah, I'm really excited to have this conversation too. Yeah. So as you said, I'm a copywriter and a coach and what I really love to do is help people get to the heart of their story because I think that's. Sometimes we just can't read our own mail, you know, we can't read our own label from inside the bottle. And that's what I found. I've been doing this for nearly 25 years. I've been in marketing for, for that amount of time. And it doesn't matter what someone comes to me with. They might want to launch a product, they might want a new website, they, you know, might want to write a book. But the thing we find hardest is to kind of nail our message. The thing, the nugget, the heart of the gold. And that's what I really love to help people do. So I do that with coaching. Some of that's one on one, some of that's group coaching. And then I do copywriting for people as well because some, sometimes we don't have the time or the skill to do it ourselves and we want to outsource that to someone else. So that's what I do.

And that's what you did for me. Right. So I hired you to help me write the copy and the messaging for my website. And I loved what you said. You help people get to the heart of their story and that's what you helped me do. And I want to take a second and just walk the audience through and everybody Listening here, what I was struggling with. So I had a website that I've had out there for many, many years and kind of the offers and what I wanted in the message that I wanted to show and you know, kind of display through that website had changed and I was really struggling with how to kind of display my messaging, communicate my core message from that website because I have a lot of different offers that I have in this particular business. And we're talking about my destiny cop.com website, my personal brand website. And things have changed over the years, right? I have my hello content shop where I have all of my digital products there, even a lot of my online courses. And what I wanted to display and communicate and really that message that I wanted to come through on this, my personal brand website was how I could help people with my coaching, whether that's any group coaching that I do or my one on one coaching. And I was really struggling, right, with making that change, which is why I reached out to you and hired you to kind of, you know, help me formula formulate that. And I'm still, you know, even to this day, it was, I can't believe how hard that was for me to really, you know, kind of make that transition and really position my personal brand website and communicate that message that was solely focused, pretty much solely focused on my one on one and just the coaching that I do. So let me ask you this. When you have somebody that is pivoting and they need to rewrite their home page and you know, maybe even in their about page and other pages on their website, where do you say they should start? Where would you guide them to start with that?

It's a good question because as you say, it's not easy. And yeah, I don't believe these things happen overnight either. They, they tend to be organic, don't they? So yeah, but it is doable. So I would say, and I think one of the exercises I took you through, so I would one, start with your audience. And by that I mean even if your audience is small, even if you don't have many customers you've interacted with, think back to something I often get clients to do is I say think back to the last three times you interacted with a customer and you loved it, you know, what was going on there? Why did you love it? What, you know, what, what was coming up for you. So I would, number one, start with your audience so, you know, thinking about the people you love working with the most and then also trying to dig into what do they need what are they looking for? What are their struggles? What's the language they use? So I do suggest starting with your audience, but at the same time, then think about, okay, what. What sparks me, what brings me to life, what makes me most passionate. And I think a couple of the questions I asked you, because I know I ask all my clients, and they always kind of get stunned when I ask them, is, what makes you mad? And what do you think? What do you wish were different? And the reason I ask that is because I think that gets us thinking about those. Those kind of gut reactions that are really core to. To us as business owners and the things we just don't want to sacrifice on and the things we wish people knew and we wish they had help with, we wish they could do differently, you know. So I think if you look at those two things, number one, like, who's the audience I love working with and what are they crying out for? And then number two, what really makes me passionate? I think that'll be a really strong place to help you hone in on the main thing you want to talk about.

And I think you also asked me who you don't want to work with, which I thought was so very critical for that exercise, because there's definitely, you know, an ideal client, ideal customer that I want to work with, with in my, you know, in my coaching. But there's other people that I just. I know that we wouldn't necessarily be great fits for. And the other thing that I was struggling with that you helped me kind of. We kind of worked through this, and we'll. We'll talk about it in a little bit more detail. But I have a lot of different people who I help. Like, I have people who don't have digital products or courses yet, but they want some. I have people who already have their digital products and their courses, but they're not. They're. They're struggling with selling them. So I definitely have offers that I can help them with. And then I have this other niche out there who have digital products and there are selling them, but they just don't have that consistent revenue. So what would you say to someone who has more than one audience that they serve, but they still want that core message coming through on their website? How would you kind of coach and work them through that?

Yeah, again, it's such a good question, because it's a big struggle for all of us, isn't it? And it is for me, too. I do more than one thing. And I think this is the thing with the Majority of people I work with are what I would call creative entrepreneurs or kind of content led, you know, they tend to be coaches, writers, educators, that kind of thing. And so we're people with lots of ideas and we want to help, we want to serve. And it's so challenging to pick one thing. But yeah, so I would say to start with number one, don't get scared of picking one thing. Now I'm not saying you have to niche in your business in terms of your business model. You can choose to sell lots of different kinds of products and sell them in lots of different kinds of ways. But a picture I use sometimes with clients is of an arrow. So if you think about the, you know, the physically how an arrow is made, it's this kind of triangle shape and you have the point of the arrow. So what I say to them is that point of the arrow is going to be your main message. That's the thing you're going to put on your Instagram, you know, little kind of one liner, your LinkedIn one liner, your kind of tagline. If you're going to have a tagline on your website, you know, the start of your bio is going to be this, this point of the arrow, the head of the arrow. But then underneath that, the, the triangle gets broader, that, that head of the arrow gets broader and there's space for all the other little products. So number one, don't panic. Number two, if you're very specific with one audience, you're gonna, you're gonna attract them and resonate with them and then you'll be surprised who else comes along. So it doesn't mean your, your business is gonna get smaller. And then the other thing I had to say is pick one and point the others. So what I mean by that is get really specific in terms of the copy on your homepage and the, the main copy at the top and kind of how that copy flows down. Use that copy to pick one, pick the one audience, but then you point the other people somewhere else where you can help them. And that's where we ended up with your website. And it wasn't necessarily an easy decision for you to kind of go, oh, okay, I'm going to move my links to my digital products, I'm going to move that further down the page. That feels a bit scary to do to begin with. But what you're doing when you do that is you're picking one audience first and you're creating a really compelling flow, a really compelling, you know, journey of copy. They're reading through that keeps them there on the page. And for those that's not relevant to, you're pointing them somewhere else, you're directing them somewhere else. So I think that's where I'd suggest starting. But, you know, the other thing to think about is this isn't just about copy and the words you use. This is about your business model and your business. So, you know, get real with yourself. Give yourself, yourself some time and space to think about, okay, what sort of business do I want to run? Who do I love working with the most? Where do I want to spend most of my energy? Where do I want 80% of my revenue to come from? And all of those kinds of questions will help you hone in on that one audience to start with.

And I think for me, what helped me with that kind of that core message was thinking about my overall mission, you know, my overall mission and how I wanted to kind of, you know, come out into the world. And even with the overall message, mission, mission and the core messaging that I have, the other products and services that I offer, they still fall under that core mission mission. You know, it's just that there's, you know, depending on where somebody is in their business journey that will kind of direct where I can help them. So like you said, what we ended up doing is putting some of the lead magnets that I had. Let's say if somebody, you know, wanted to create like a mini course, so, or they wanted to create, create their tripwire funnel, we put those lead magnets a little bit farther down on the page. Now they're still there for somebody that wants. That's where they are in their business journey. And they kind of want to pick their business journey. They're still there for them on that home page. It will just direct them somewhere else once they, you know, download that particular lead magnet. So let's go back to that homepage. So when somebody is redesigning their website for this core messaging that they want to communicate, what should they have on their homepage and where?

Yeah, yeah, it's a hard one. It feels so overwhelming, doesn't it, when. When we think about our homepage. But let's try and simplify that. So from the top, obviously you're going to have your navigation and your menu items. You know, you're going to choose the most important places you want to direct people to. And the typical things you need, if nothing else, are some sort of about page and some sort of services page or product page, you know, and a contact page. So you're going to have that kind of thing at the top. But then in terms of the copy on the homepage, what I like to do is start. You want to make sure that at the top of the page, you've got who you work with or who you serve, where you help them get to. So, like, the result or the transformation, how you do that and why they should pick you. Those are really the most important elements. So who you serve, where you help them get get, how you help them get there, and why they should pick you. So really, it's like journalism. You're going to the W questions, the who, the what, the where, the why. So if nothing else, you need those things on your homepage now. You can make different decisions about where you put them. And, you know, I've seen some really good homepages where there's a banner and then you. Then there's a list of different services people can go to straight away. And then you kind of get into the more of what I would call the meaty copy of kind of who I am, what I do for you, how I help you, or what I like to do is I like to start with, hi, I know who you are, I know what you're struggling with, and here's how I'm going to help you. So there's different ways you can physically lay it out on the page, but, yeah, you definitely need the what, where, who, why on the page, and then you need to direct them. So I have a friend called Kristen. She's also a brand strategist, and she uses this great analogy of a homepage being a bit like the foyer of your home. So you're welcoming someone in and then you're directing them. Here's the bathroom, there's the kitchen. If you get thirsty, we're gonna go sit on the couch over there in the living room in a minute, you know, so you need places on your homepage to direct people to what is most important to them, to the information they most need, and to the services that. That you offer that match their needs. So whether that's your podcast, whether that's paid services, whatever it is, you're going to want that on your homepage. And a free lead magnet. And now I would say put that free lead magnet up in the banner or very close to. We have a saying in journalism that above the fold, and that literally comes from physically, a newspaper would have a fold in it, and whatever was above that fold was the information people would see straight away. So now in our world, when we're looking at a Website above the fold means before they have to scroll. So you need to get the most important information before someone has to scroll. So that needs to be the, you know, what you do for whom and, you know, directing them to a lead magnet or something. So those, I would say, I. I know. You know, actually, when you look at it like that is not that much that has to go on your homepage. We can talk about the copy in a minute. But yeah, those are the key things. You can play around with where they go. But I would definitely start with who you do. Excuse me, who you serve, what you do, and that kind of thing. But this is the thing I say to clients when they're writing any web page, Think about these three things. What do you want the people to know, to feel and to do? So if you can answer those three questions, what do you want them to know, what you want them to feel and what you want them to do that will help you structure your page?

And I love the analogy that you gave us. Like, the homepage is like the foyer when somebody's coming into your home, and you can send them elsewhere, you can send them to the kitchen, you can send them to the dining room or the living room or whatever. So I love that analogy there. So let's talk a little bit about the copy and how do we make sure that the copy that we have have either on our about page or our homepage will resonate with our audience?

Yeah, this is what gets me fired up. Because, yeah, I just, I believe in copy. That is what I call customer centric and narrative led. So those are the two things I'm always keeping in mind when I'm writing for someone and when I'm coaching someone on how to write their website. So what I mean by that is, so, number one, start with the customer. Do not start with yourself. Even an about page is not about you, it's about the customer. And we definitely did that with your about page page. It kind of almost turned into a natural sales page, actually, didn't it? But so, yeah, so in terms of the copy, the. You know what I see when I, you know, I read websites and when I write them, what works and what is compelling is when you're speaking directly to someone and you're communicating to them. I get you. So start with your customer. So that means go and read testimonials that people have written about you. Ask them directly. There's this very cool hack. You can go to Amazon, put in a search term of the type of thing that you do in your business. So, you know, in my case, it would be, you know, copywriter for small business owners or something like that. And you will find books on that topic. Then what you do is you go through the reviews that people have written about those books. It doesn't matter if the books are any good or not, but just go start going through a handful of reviews, and what you're looking for is not particularly about the content of the book, but the sorts of things that people were looking for, what they liked, what they didn't like, language they use, any. Any themes that get repeated. What you're doing when you do that is you're building a copy bank of language and themes that your real customers actually use. And you can literally, you know, there are some phrases and themes that are very generic that you can cut and paste. You're not stealing someone's words. You're not taking a whole chunk of text that someone's written. You're just taking phrases like saved my, saved my, you know, save the day, or, you know, cut my time in half, or, you know, so you will start seeing themes as you read those testimonials. And I think it was Ashlyn Carter that. That suggested that. And I just love doing that. I find that really helpful. And that's really helpful if you don't have a lot of customers and if you're newer in your journey and you don't have a lot of testimonials. So start with your customers. The other thing you can do is go to some people you've worked with and say, how would you describe me? Ask them for a few words to describe you. Or ask them, you know, what, what, how. You know, how if you were introducing me at a party in terms of my business, how would you introduce me? Those kind of things can be really helpful. And also just asking them, you know, what are you looking for? What do you need right now? All of that is very helpful language. So that's step number one is get that language that you're what real customers are actually using. And then the second thing is what I call flow. So the copy that you write needs to be engaging. It needs to make someone want to keep reading. So, you know, I talk about using a narrative flow, a story, and then using emotion. So the most powerful things that we read have like a, you know, have a sort of progression to them, a story to them, and they use emotion. Or another really great way to do it is to be really specific. So rather than saying, oh, you know, you're struggling with not Having enough time in your business, you can paint a picture of what that looks like. So, you know, you sit down to write an email, then the, you know, then the phone rings, your kid's got to be picked up from school, then you've got to do this, you got to do that, and you've run out of time to write your email. You know, that shows someone, oh, I don't have enough time in my, in my business, rather than telling them you're struggling with time. So those are some of the things I would say to start with is customers language. And then think about the flow being a story type of flow. And I can get into that if you want, and then use emotion. So with emotion, I'm saying, you know, rather than just saying you've run out of time using that example, say it's, you're frustrated that you don't have any time, you're exhausted because you get to the end of the day and you haven't finished your to do list and you've got to stay up till midnight to finish it. So. Yeah, and if you want me to get into the story sort of narrative flow, I can, I can get into that.

Well, let's, let's talk about that a little bit. And I know you, you even mentioned it for my about page. We definitely made it all about the customer and it kind of did turn into a little bit of a sales page for. And right now it is tied into the work with me on my top navigational bar on my website. That's what it goes to my about page. Now, I might change that in the future once we, you know, kind of expand what we're doing here, but tell us a little bit more about that kind of that narrative and that story that we pulled into my website.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'm really passionate about this. So, you know, I like to talk about a brand story. So a story is powerful because it takes someone on a journey. But when I talk about story, I'm not just talking about you going on about, oh, here's what I did and here's how great I am. The story needs to start with where your customer is at and how you understand that and how maybe you've been there or you've worked with people who've been there and how you've brought them through. So at its simplest form, if you're going to think about the copy on your homepage or your about page, in order to make it flow well and to flow like a story, I see a story in three Stages you've got where you are now, the journey and where you end up. Simple as that. So now, journey, future. So for you, it might be telling the story. So what we ended up doing was, you know, we were thinking about where are your customers struggling and what is a similar struggle you have had. So we picked a story that was really compelling about you being in a situation of struggle and then a kind of light bulb moment you had and what you did about that and how it's changed your life. A story so you know, that you can use very powerfully on an about page. And then when it comes to a homepage, I use a similar structure. I start with what's the customer struggling with? Then okay, I get you. And either I've been there and it doesn't matter if you haven't been there, or I know how to help you in that situation. And here's how, here's where I'm going to help you get, and here's how I'm going to help you get there. So, yeah, that's what I would say for making copy compelling either on your about page or your homepage is think about that story of where you are now, the journey, and where you where you're going to end up.

So, Sarah, if somebody cannot afford a copywriter, what steps do you recommend that they take to try to write either their homepage or their about page or both of them theirselves?

Okay. Yeah. All right. So there's two things I would say there's two sides to writing. One is getting the right content, and one is your actual physical process, like your system. And quite often we think the only thing that we're struggling with is the content. People come to me and say, I don't know what to write. But actually the process and the system you use is just as important. So in terms of the content, go get customer language like we've been talking about. Then think about what's my why, what's my spark story? What is my moment that I decided to do what I do? And if you have those two pieces, you're going to have like 50, 80% of your content right there. Okay, so number one, in terms of content, customer language, and then my why and my story of, of how I got where I am and why I do what I do. And then you're going to also need the piece of like, okay, so how do I actually help people? You know, what's the process? Like, what are my products like, what are my services like? Like, so that's the content but then in terms of the process, this is my biggest piece of advice. And if you take nothing away from today, I actually have a training about this. Feel free to check it out. It takes you through the my writing process. And if I don't, I'll be totally transparent with you. Destiny, When I was writing your pet, your pages, it got to a point where I felt stuck and it's because I wasn't following my own writing process. So my biggest piece of advice is don't start at the beginning. You've got a page in front of you. Don't try and write that banner. That is the hardest piece and it's the most important. Start with everything else. So first of all, you gather, you do your research. Then you just make lots of bullet points. You do not write any full sentences. Then you write a really messy draft and it's terrible and it reads awful and you think you're terrible and you think you're never going to be a writer and it's never going to get any better. You leave it 24 hours, you come back to it and you kind of see what bits of work working, what bits aren't, what bits are in the wrong place, and you start moving things around and then you'll see it start starting to come together. And only when you've done all of that, go back up to the banner and write the banner.

And I love that tip. And we do that too, like in when we're writing out, like either sales emails or just newsletter emails. I always say do that subject line last. Right? I mean, it's the same concept here. Sarah, thank you so much for join joining me today. I loved working with you on my website copy and all the messaging. It was so difficult for me. But having you in my corner just made it so easy, so much easier and so much better. And I think we have a, a great end product here. Can you let people know where they can find you and also where they can find that free gift that you were talking about?

Sure, yeah. So it's my name, Sarah Sambals. S A M B L E S. And Sarah has an H on it dot com. And if you do forward slash slash brand, you'll get to my page where you can get a freebie. And that freebie is called the brand story map. And it's what I was talking about about how do you communicate that story of where you've been, where your customers are and you know, how you solved that and where you are now and how you help them. So it just takes you through and it's it's a document but it's also you you'll get emails with three little videos and those videos will take you through each of those moments of that story journey so that you've got a really compelling it's kind of like a bio really at the end of the day that you can use on your about page. You can use it in your emails, you can use it on social. It's like a key story of why you do what you do and how you got here and how you help people.

So Sarah, thank you so much for joining me and sharing all of your wonderful knowledge with us.

That is such a pleasure and I'm really glad we got to work together.

It thanks for listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed this episode today. If you love the show, I'd appreciate a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. Have a great rest of your day and bye for now.