4: Facebook Ad Tips for Course Creators

Welcome to the Course Creators MBA podcast. I'm your host, Destiny Kopp. And in this podcast, we're going to cover actionable tips to grow your online course business. And I have a special guest with me today. I have Jodi Byrne here. Jody is a digital marketing strategist and a website designer for the vacation rental industry. Prior to that, she worked in direct response and information product marketing, and she has overseen advertising budgets up to $10,000 per month. She's also a certified paid traffic specialist from Digital Marketer, and she is my personal go to person whenever I have questions on Facebook ads. So I am so excited to have her here today to talk about Facebook ads for course creators. Jodi, welcome. I'm so happy to have you. Why don't you tell the audience a little bit about you, your journey, and how you got into the business that you're doing today?

Okay. Well, first of all, thanks, Destiny. You know, I always enjoy talking and working with you. You're a great partner that I've had and it's always fun. Since I am in the vacation rental industry mostly, it's always fun to kind of get out of that for a little while and talk to people in other industries that I've worked with previously and kind of make sure that my skills are up to the par that they were before. So anyway, thanks for having me. Let's see my journey. So, you know, I actually. Long story a little bit. I started out in marketing after I got a degree in PR as an adult. I had three kids at home and gave up on the retail industry and decided I needed to go back to college and graduated when I was 36 years old and got a degree in public relations. Right at the height of the social media thing is, I mean, it was right when Facebook started really getting big for businesses. And my first job out of college was working as a communications person manager for a nonprofit. And so we immediately jumped into social media. We're right here in Austin where, you know, it was south by Southwest and social media crazy and really a tech center. So my team and I really some put together some great social media campaigns. And because of that, I kind of felt like I became an expert at social media really early on and quickly, which of course at that time, you know, it was. It was really easy to say I'm a social media expert, because there weren't any social media experts. So I branded myself with that name. Then In, I guess 2010, my team and I, we won an award from south by Southwest for nonprofit social media outreach so that was, you know, such a huge thing. Pretty quickly after that, my middle daughter became ill and I needed to spend a little bit more time at home with her and helping her. So I quit that job. And just based on, you know, the 2,000 Twitter followers I had acquired by that time and some Instagram followers, I was able to put myself out there as a social media strategist for basically anybody that wanted to hire me. And I got really started niching down pretty early in that I really realized the benefit of saying you had a specialty. And so I was able to work in the music industry. It's really big in Austin. It's the music capital of the world. And Texas in general has a lot of music and musicians. So I was able to niche down and work for lots of up and coming musicians and even some of the bigger names in Texas that I was really proud to work with. And then moving on from there, I got into events marketing, which led me into tourism because events and tourism kind of went hand in hand. And I'm a super big Texan. So really marketing my state as a whole in my region was really exciting for me to be able to really talk about where I'm from and talk about it to a nationwide audience. We were, you know, we were getting people to come to our events and to come to the city of San Marcos, who I was partnering with, you know, from, from Canada, Ontario, Canada, and you know, all over the, the North American and South American continents. So that was really, really exciting time for me. And then quickly moving on because of that, I started doing some travel blogging, got into working with vacation rental owners and property managers and just so much enjoyed tourism. I thought this is my niche. Unfortunately also had to have a paying job. So I kind of veered away from that. And at the exact same time, and this is in 2014, ish, I started working for a direct response marketer. And what direct response is is the information marketing, where it's these quick funnels much of like what you know what you're doing and what a lot of your clients are doing. It's those quick funnels get people in on a lead magnet system, get them through an email series and warm them up, educate them and then quickly sell them a product. So I was able through him, he's a major analytics and optimizations expert. He speaks internationally. He's going to be speaking at social media Marketing World in a couple of weeks. I worked with him for almost four years on some really major campaigns. You know, for four big players in the industry. And so I, you know, that's where I was really working with large ad budgets. We were working with a lot of Google Analytics and seeing the traffic coming from Facebook immediately to a lead magnet, immediately to a tripwire, which is a small introductory offer immediately, you know, going into a webinar series, a webinar funnel. So I just learned tremendously. And so my business now focuses on teaching vacation rental owners how to use those direct response strategies in their booking business. Because it's basically the same thing. It's basically coming into a site from traffic and instantly making a decision about whether or not the person wants to make a purchase. So that's kind of my. I said that was going to be short, but that was probably all of our time. So thank you, Destiny, for having me on.

Well, you know, and we're really good friends. We talk several times a week and I learned stuff about you in that introduction that I didn't even know. So thank you.

Awesome. That's funny. That's good.

So I. So you, you're doing this for the vacation rental owners and you've done a lot of, you know, funnels in the past and you've worked also with some course graders and I know that you have. And so we're talking today specifically about Facebook ads and sales funnels for, for course creators.

Yes.

So in. And like I said, you're my go to person whenever I have questions or something's just not working right. So I really wanted to bring you on and have a discussion around Facebook ads and, you know, for doing them for launch and then also talking about, you know, how they may be different for an evergreen sales funnel. So first of all, I guess the first question I have for you, Jodi, is what are some mistakes you see people making with Facebook ads when they, you know, initially, you know, and honestly, going in and starting up, you know, spending money on Facebook ads is a big leap for people.

Right.

That haven't done them before. So they're scared initially they may have some anxiety about it. You know, they're putting money and budget behind it and they're not sure that they're going to get a return from it. So what are some of the mistakes you see people make when they first kind of go into starting doing Facebook or Instagram ads?

So there's so many mistakes, but you know, just touching on a few of the major ones really quickly. One of the biggest mistakes I make, I see made is that people aren't setting up their pixels correctly. Pixels on your Facebook page. And really Quick, I mean, on your, from your Facebook to your website really quickly in case there's anybody out there that doesn't understand it. It's just putting a little tiny image is. It's tiny. It's a one pixel image that goes on your website on every single page that Facebook has control over. And Facebook can then see the people on your website. One big misconception is a lot of people think that they're only seeing the people that come from Facebook to your website, but they're not. Anybody that has a Facebook account and is logged in to their Facebook, which almost everybody has their, you know, has their Facebook off to the side on their phones and on their desktops, those Facebook is able to see those people. So it's a magic button for retargeting. So when you don't have your pixels set up correctly, then you're losing the opportunity to speak to the people who have already shown interest in you. And that's huge. I mean, if you think about having a brick and mortar business and being able to go out into a crowd of people and pick out the 10 people in that crowd who know who you are and have already either purchased from you or have shown interest, who were the window shoppers of your particular business. That's the power of retargeting with Facebook pixels. So another mistake in that same vein is that they'll put their pixel on their main site, but then they don't think of putting it on their sales page. So a lot of people have a sales page on another site. This is really common with people who have Kajabi. They don't put the pixel on their Kajabi sales page or they're the page that's hosting the webinar in the Evergreen Webinar, you know, video. They don't put it on that. And because they're using two different platforms for their, from their site, their actual website, maybe a WordPress or a Squarespace or wix or whatever you're using, I recommend WordPress. But anyway, to their Kajabi site or their landing page for their lead magnet, they may be using ConvertKit landing page or even Mailchimp landing page and they're not putting their pixel on that either. So that's a huge opportunity that they're missing out on by really not setting that up correctly. So I encourage people to not just look at the little Facebook guide on how to do it, but really deep dive into, you know, social media. Examiner always has some great information. There's so many resources out there on how to set up a pixel across domains. Another major mistake I see is people not looking at their Google Analytics. Most people have learned in business to have it set up, but really tracking that traffic and seeing what it's doing on their site. So when you're running a Facebook campaign, or even if you're not running an ad campaign and you're just posting content that leads back to your blog site, being able to look at, you know, where that traffic is coming from, particularly, particularly then seeing what those people are doing on your site, again, that's, you know, that's really, that's information that's telling you so much about your business and what people are doing, how, how long they're staying on your site, if they're traveling through the site the way you intended them to. So, you know, both of those things are super high tech in the way they sound, but they're not high tech if you can just sit down for a couple of hours and really work with some of the training, resour and figure it out. Free resources are out there, you know, low cost resources are out there to help you do that. And then the other mistake I wanted to talk about is it's not just having a small budget. Budgets are so hard, people. That's a, you know, a question everybody asked me. How much should I spend? How much should I spend? It's not how much you should spend, it's how well do you know your target audience, how well do you write copy and how well are those ads converting. And in order to figure that out for a while, you need to spend some money at that. You need to, you know, at least try to spend $20 a day for a couple of weeks. And again, you know, I have a small business and I've run traffic for really super micro businesses with very small budgets. And I know how hard it is, but I almost want to say, unless you can really spend that money. I mean, I've taken out a credit card just to run Facebook ads, which sounds ridiculous, but you really want to learn how to do, how to do it for you. So that's my third big mistake is not only not spending the budget, but not allocating it correctly across your entire series.

So you're saying $20 a day for like two weeks maybe just, just to learn your audience and how they're reacting to your offer and your copy and your creative.

Yep, that's exactly right. $20 a day, you know that. What is that in two weeks? That's a couple hundred dollars. But it's once you and and deep diving into the analytics. And again, you. There's so many free resources out there that can teach you exactly what you need to be looking at when you're, when you're looking at how the ads are doing. It's not just, you know, how many people are clicking through to your website. You know, if that's the type of ad that you set up. Because a hundred people that click to your website, you know, 10% of them or less stay on your website, you know, so there's, you know, you really have to learn who the people are and be able to set up not only the lead, main lead ads, but those retargeting ads. So, you know, if you can have a $500 monthly ad budget and you can sell one of your courses on that $500, you know, you may, for a couple of months, you may only make your $500 back. You may not even make your $500 back for a couple of months. But I guarantee you, if you're really, truly deep diving into those numbers, then after a couple of months of spending dol. Really optimizing what you have, then you're gonna make that money up in the long run for sure.

That's the power of Facebook ads. But to your point, you have to be willing to stay in it and keep looking at the data and tweaking and making the necessary adjustments.

Right? I mean, just thinking about you and I, how many. How long have we been working together? Not only working with your Facebook ads, but you've helped me a lot with mine, just giving me copy ideas. So you. I recommend if anybody has someone that they can collaborate with on their ads, a lot of people don't know, but when you're editing your ad, your actual ad, you can email the ad to somebody who's not even on your team, and they can accept that or not email, but send them a link, they can accept that. And then they can look at it in their feed and they can let, you know, hey, that image doesn't really resonate or I didn't even notice the ad in my newsfeed? That's really, you know, I do that all the time. I send it to my mom and say, hey, mom, can you. Does this ad look like something that you would stop and look at for any reason?

So, you know, that's a great tip, Jody.

Yeah, I mean, and I don't. I guess I probably may not have even mentioned that to you, but yeah, you want people to respond to your ads. It's just like, you know, I Always recommend just when you're building your website, send it to 10 people and have them perform an action on your website and see how long it takes them to do it. Because you think it's easy. You just either built your website or worked with someone else to build your website. It's easy for you to find your blog, but is it easy for the average website user to come in and find it? So anyway, moving on back to Facebook ads. So.

Point, definitely point taken. So we, you know, let's just say we have our pixel set up, we have our budget allocated and we, you know, we're ready to go into the ads manager and start setting up our ad. Can you kind of walk us through that and give us some, some tips on doing that?

Yeah, for sure. And it's hard. I mean, there's no doubt Facebook makes it as confusing as they possibly can. I honestly believe that they do that because they're trying to weed out the really small marketer and try to get the big time money making marketers in there to take care of it for you or to do it for themselves. But the first thing is really to know what your ad is intended to do. And I think in a minute maybe I'll go over the actual kind of strategy behind it. But there's options for you at the campaign level that you really need to pay close attention to. A lot of people just do boosted posts and just don't even ever go into their ads manager. A lot of people that do have their ads manager set up, you know, they don't know which to choose. If they're doing a video ad, they may continue to just do the video ad engagement. Whereas, you know, it might be more beneficial for them to do a messenger ad even with a video as the, as the creative behind it. So, you know, knowing what you're going to do is important. Moving from that first decision into the audience and the ad set level, which is the next level down, is super important. And that's where you're going to really narrow down your audience. This is the key area where you really need to put together an interest list. And I recommend doing that outside of Facebook, really sitting down with your avatar and coming up with this great list of people they follow, who are they following on Facebook, who are their thought leaders, who are their go to experts or even if it's something like, let's say a health blog or a health. If you're a health coach and you're trying to get health conscious people, who are they following on Instagram? Maybe yoga instructors or, you know, and lots of these people may not have a Facebook interest particularly, but a lot of them will. A lot of them are big enough that Facebook is going to. When you are building your audience within Facebook, then a lot of them are going to be there. And so that's a big thing is for me is really just sitting down and brainstorming all the people you can think of that they follow, all the websites that they do, all the magazines that they read, you know, how old are they, how many kids do they have? What is their income level, if they work, you know, if you're targeting a certain type of person, are they a business person, are they a stay at home mom, you know, do they have preschool kids? All of those things. And then when you're actually in the Facebook audience builder, building that audience is so much easier than just kind of clicking on things and, you know, wondering if it works. And so, you know, and that's also where I recommend this new strategy I heard about a couple of months ago on a podcast or through, through someone, and I've tried it with a couple of clients and it really does work. So when you get that initial audience of say, you know, 10 million, 2 million, whatever, you know, whatever your audience is, also you can narrow that down at the very bottom of that audience level. You can narrow that down by people who are friends of people who like your page. And the reason that that's a pretty cool strategy is, is as that ad is going through People's news feed, then they see at the top of the ad where the, where the page name is, they'll see, you know, Jodi Born liked this page. You know, Destiny like this page. And so they're like, oh, my friend, Destiny like that page. Maybe I should respond to this ad. Maybe I should see if this would interest me as well. So I found that to be. To be kind of a good little tip trick. Now, I also encourage you to do two ads in that vein. So you're gonna do the one ad that may be targeted to this huge group of people, and then one ad that's or the same ad actually to a new audience set. That just narrows it down so that you can really see for yourself. Is it working for me? Is this a strategy that works for me? Or should I stick this larger ad set with more people in it? And then, and then this ad set level is where you're going to choose your budget. Again, that's really important. I recommend instead of a daily budget, I recommend saying, okay, I'm going to run this ad for 10 days and I have $120 and I'm going to put $120 into this ads particular ad set so that that tells Facebook that they can spend more than $20 on a day. Because the last thing you want is for your ads to be kicking ass and you, your budget's up. You know, and I've seen that happen with a lot of people when they set like a five or seven dollar budget, all of a sudden they're like, well, you know, my ad stopped running at 2 o' clock this afternoon. I've stopped getting traffic or you know, I noticed that nobody was signing up for my lead magnet. And then you go back and look, well, you know, you spent your budget and so you told face, you basically just told Facebook will stop, don't run that anymore. So when you, when you have a lifetime budget and you set an actual time limit, that's where you would do that. And then that's also where you would optimize your ad for clicks and leads or leads. And that's too big of a thing for me to really talk about today, but it is definitely something you want to read on. So Facebook has the default and I can't remember right now, I think the default is different for different things that you're doing. But that default is usually what I stick with because I trust Facebook to, you know, they want you to succeed so they generally give you the best information for you to succeed and then moving on to real quickly into the ad creative level. So one of the things that I really think people should do more of is creating lots of like using the same copy and creating lots of image images. So give your audience several selection of images to kind of stop them in their tracks and you can. What that does is again, you're learning, you're learning what images do my people respond to? Maybe you're doing lots and lots of branded images and you try something really new that's kind of, you know, you may find it ugly or unattractive or you may be against it because it's off brand, but those might be the images that your people are responding to. The reason I this is another tip that I read about and started doing too is because, so let's say you've been running traffic to the same people kind of over and over. Well, when they see and recognize your brand in their feed, they're like, oh, I've already read that, I've already seen her, already know that lady and I'm not interested Or I've already. I've already signed up for her newsletter or whatever it is. They see something else, they may not recognize that it's from you, and they're like, oh, what is that? Let me see what that is. So, you know, it really. The whole entire point is to stop people, get them away from, you know, the back to school photos and the puppy dogs and, you know, the political rants and get them all into your business. And so you've got to do anything you can to do that.

So to your point, I was going through my newsfeed, I think it was yesterday, and I saw this, like, really ugly picture of monkey. And, you know, monkeys can be cute, obviously, but this one, this picture was not. I was like, whoa, what is that? It was an ad. It was for an ad, right?

I saw a Botox ad recently. I'm not a Botox person. Hopefully I won't ever have to be. But it was an interesting ad. Facebook has rules that you can't show needles on skin, you can't show medical procedures. But this was just a, you know, a black background with a transparent image of a needle on it. And then on the side of it, it had these big full lips like. Like, you know, Kylie Jenner almost lips. And it wasn't. It's not Botex, Botox. It was the lip filler. I forgot.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And it really. The hot. It was hot pink lips on this black background with a needle to the side. And then it was about this, you know, lip filler special that they were having. And I was like, that's a smart. That's really smart. Because most of what you see is just pretty women with lips. You don't. And this was like, oh, it said something. The text. The copy was something like, hey, hot lips. Or, you know, something really engaging and fun that the ad was really fun. So I really. I save ads a lot. I'm pretty sure I saved that one.

So I want to go back to something you said earlier. So you. When you started talking about some of your tips, right, you were talking about, you know, really digging into the ideal, you know, the avatar, the ideal customer, all of their characteristics, and all of that is. So that is set up. You would set up a custom audience for that, right? Because a lot of people or a lot of the course creators that are listening to this, the show, they might not have a really well established Facebook page. They might not have a well established Facebook ad account. You know, they're really just getting started on this. So is custom audiences the best way to go when you're just beginning your Facebook ad journey?

Well, first of all, the word you're using is wrong, but it's the word that I. The same word I use. Again, Facebook has the most confusing. The most confusing terminology for things. If you are outside of the actual ads builder, where you go through the campaign and everything, and you. You can look at all the menu options. There's an option called audiences. I actually suggest building your audience there. So you go into your audiences, and then I'm waving my hands around like I have a big screen in front of me.

That's how I talk too, you know, Right.

Y' all can't see that. So I feel kind of stupid, but that's what I'm doing. So everybody visualize me showing you on this huge, giant screen. But anyway, so you go into your audiences tab, and it says create audience, and there's three different types of audiences you can create. So the audience that I was speaking of then is called a saved audience, and that is just an audience that you build based on interests and behaviors. And you. That's where that goes. And then you save it. And, you know, if you're in, you know, I recommend this. I actually have people do this a lot. Go into that and just look. You can click through and look at all the interests and behaviors that you can target. Specifically for vacation rentals, one of the things we do around Christmas time is we target people who have anniversaries coming up in the next 30 and 60 days. I mean, think of how detailed that is. And Facebook knows that information, you know.

And that's actually a little scary.

But it is a little scary. But, you know, you announce when your anniversary is. When. When you got your Facebook account, you probably put in your. Your end of your wedding date, because they ask you, you know, oh, show your friends your anniversary. And, you know, really, you're showing Facebook your anniversary. Right? So, you know, they know parents of toddlers, they know parents of teenagers. They know a lot of these interests and behaviors and that you would not even think about targeting. And so once you go in there and see some of those things, it's really. It's pretty incredible and pretty powerful. And it, you know, jot down some notes of some things that you may not have thought about before. So then the other drop down is called custom audiences, and that's the word that you use. But you were specifically talking about saved audience.

You're right. I absolutely was, because I was thinking about going into that area in my ad account. And yes, I use those terminologies.

Right. And I do too, because it saved audience is just kind of a weird name for that. But anyway, so the custom audience is where you build an audience, which is a retargeting audience. You're building an audience. That's where you build one based on your website views from your pixel. You can actually even choose specific pages to target. That's where you would build an audience based on people who had engaged with your Facebook page previously or a video. That's where you would build an audience based on your email list. So there's multiple ways that you can build a custom audience there, which those are super powerful for lead ads as well as for retargeting for all sorts of things. So, you know, for example, you can go in and target people who read a specific blog post about something that did not see your lead magnet page. You can choose people who saw this page, who did not see that page, and then you can send them your lead based on that blog post or based on your content. So let me think about that. That's, you know, 250 people in the last week saw your blog posts that you promoted. They didn't take you up on your lead magnet offer. Send them another Facebook ad just to those people. That's about your Facebook offer, I mean, about your lead offer. So.

So I kind of leads us into the next, next discussion. So, you know, we have somebody, we have, we send a, did an ad for our lead magnet, right? And maybe we did an ad for inviting them to our webinar. What do we do to, for those who didn't buy on our web, right. What do we do? What kind of ads, you know, kind of retargeting ads would you suggest to go back and retarget the folks who maybe registered for the webinar or attended the webinar but didn't buy.

I really see it. So I see this. A lot of people visualize this process in their mind and I visualize it as an upside down funnel. So I visualize it as a, I guess basically a pyramid. And the top level of the pyramid is the cold audience. That's those saved, the saved interest audiences that you're sending out these ads to, you know, to the whole world, basically. Let's just say you're sending it to ever 32 million people, whatever your number is, that's way too many, but whatever. And then those people, and I call it, raise their hand. How many of those people, let's say a thousand of those people, raised their hand and said, okay, I want to go to your webinar. Or if, if you're showing them, say a video ad or a lead magnet ad, then they're raising their hand and saying, yes, I'm interested in this content. Well, then the next level, you're only targeting the people that said, yes, I'm interested in this target, in this content. And that's where those retargeted. That's the retargeting level. That's where you're going to have your audience based on, you know, the people that did visit that page of your website that you promoted, or the people that did watch your video, or the people even that did sign up for your lead magnet. And then the next level, the smallest part of the pyramid, like the part of the pyramid where we're supposed to be eating fats and oils and avocados, if you're looking at the food pyramid, but that small, that smallest pyramid section, that's where these people have raised their hand multiple times. They signed up for your webinar, they maybe attended your webinar and saw your sales page and at that point you're retargeting them again with your sales message. So this is really where you're going to take that sales copy from your sales page and, you know, just hone it into them, talk about the benefits of your program, talk about their pain points and why your program is right for them. And again, this is a much narrower audience you're going to be using at that point. You're going to be using the conversions ad campaign type. Because what you're telling Facebook is, I only want the people who are really interested in my content so that at that point they're not sending it to just the people. You know, you're going to have people who look at your sales page and immediately know, this isn't right for me. I can't afford this. I don't, you know, it's just not what I thought it was going to be. Whatever. And Facebook can tell based on their behaviors that, you know, they're not going to re engage. So that's why you would do a different ad type at that point. So that's how I kind of see it. So your question was more specific to webinars. But, but for me, it's not just about that last step conversion. For me, it's about engaging with them all the way through a funnel. And even if you want to see it as a circle going back to the retargeting and the conversions and the retargeting and conversions until, until you have fully convinced that person to either a block you so they don't see your stuff anymore, which is fine. I mean, it's fine. You're not paying for them to see your stuff anymore. When they say, I don't want to see this, this isn't right for me, or they're gonna buy from you. They're a believer in you. And at the point that they're a believer in you, that's the point where you can sell them something. So, you know, I recommend people having a tripwire offer at that point. If you've shown them a sales page and they've, you know, engaged with you enough to see the sales page and they're on your email list and they haven't told you stop sending me stuff, then they want to buy something from you. And that's the point where you may come up with another offer that's better for them. But, you know, again, I know most of your, your people are trying to sell courses, but it's just another idea, especially as an income builder, you know, just so you can run your Facebook ads. You know, if you can make, you know, $200 selling a tripwire, $19.99, you know, ebook or video, then why not do that so that you can spend another $200 on a Facebook ad? So did that answer your question?

Oh, absolutely. That was great, Jody. So any, any other last minute tips, anything else you want to, to close with that you would like this audience to know about?

I think for me, from what I see of every niche in your niche, in the information type niche, it's called the buyer's journey, and that's the broad terms for it. But also like in the travel niche, we call it the traveler's journey. The planning and dreaming stage is the same as the cold market stage. So really digging deep and understanding the buyer's journey is super important. And also what's super important is copy and really getting into. I know in your program you have a lot of material about the ICAs and knowing your target audience and how to drill down with that. And you know, that's super important not only to know who you're speaking to, but to know their pain points and why they need your program and why you are the person to provide it to them. So, you know, that's not really a specific to Facebook issue other than the copy in your ads. You know, read the copy on your ads and on your Facebook, I mean, on your sales page and think to yourself, would I buy this If I didn't know what I know, did this person convince me not only that I need them not. I mean, not only that I need this, but also I need them to teach it to me. So that's my, I guess, my last bit of optimization advice.

Well, Jodi, this has been great. Thanks so much for joining us today. I know that this audience got so much out of this, as I do every time I talk to you. So thank you so much for taking out your time of your day to share all about Facebook ads with us.

You're welcome. I hope that everybody learns something from it. I do want to say something real quick. Recently, I have had some clients talk to me about wanting about Pinterest campaigns because they're looking at their Google Analytics. They see that they're getting a lot of traffic from their Pinterest accounts for particular niches, especially life coaching, mindset coaches, health and wellness coaches. Those kind of niches are so popular on Pinterest, and Pinterest has some pretty strong capabilities in the same type of Facebook. So I think possibly adding a Pinterest strategy to your overall advertising strategy, and that's, I'm sure, something that you provide as well. I know you get a lot of traffic from Pinterest and haven't explored the Pinterest option on advertising, but it's, I think right now that Pinterest is. I have inundated myself with Pinterest marketing podcasts and tips and experts over the last week and a half, and I'm very impressed with the results people are seeing from Pinterest. So. So I wanted to throw that in there as an another ad strategy that people can. Can, you know, kind of. And the same, the same tips apply.

Well, I definitely want to talk more to you, more with you about that because first of all, you know, I love Pinterest. It's like one of my favorite platforms.

Yes.

And it's where I get the majority of my web traffic.

Yes.

But I haven't done any advertising on Pinterest yet. So I definitely want to explore that because I think it would be a great avenue for a lot of different niches. And so we're going to take up this conversation another time.

Okay, great.

So, Jodi, if somebody wanted to find you or learn more about you, where would they go?

Jodybourne.com is my website. It's very much focused on the vacation rental industry, but I'm always open to talking to anybody else about Facebook ads. I prefer not to run ads for other people, but I will, you know, definitely you know, can provide a little advice on occasion. It's just I, I don't want anybody to come to my website and get turned off by the vacation rental stuff. So I'm there if you need any, have any last minute questions. I'm, I would be happy to follow up. Maybe in your group, one of your groups, I could, could come in and we could just do a question answer series one day.

Absolutely. Let's do that. And you never know, people might have, might be listening to this who have vacation homes that they need.

That's right. Or they know somebody with a vacation home.

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Well, Jody, thanks so much, and we'll definitely chat later. Okay, bye.