70: Krista Neher: How She Created an Accredited Online Program to Differentiate Her Course

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Welcome to the Course Creators MBA podcast. I'm your host Dr. Destiny Kopp and I help business owners increase the revenue with digital products and automated sales funnels. In this podcast we tell the stories of ordinary business owners just like you. We talk about their story and how they got started, the challenges they've experienced and how they overcame them. And these are discussions with real people who understand what it's like to own an online course or membership business. Before we begin our show today, I want to let you know that this episode is sponsored by our flagship Course in a Box program which helps you create your revenue generating course in less than a week. Course in a Box is available on AppSumo at a special deal and you can learn more about Course in a Box by visiting the link in the show notes. Let's jump right into our show.

And today my special guest is Krista Nayer. Krista is a six time best selling author, international speaker, award winning entrepreneur, global thought leader and the CEO of Boot Camp Digital. Krista has written six books on digital marketing including a textbook and a dummies book. With over 15 years of digital marketing experience, Krista was a digital marketing pioneer, executing digital strategies before digital marketing was even a recognized term. She has worked with companies like Facebook, Nike, Procter & Gamble, GE, Macy's, Google and the United States Senate and has been featured as an expert in the New York Times, cnn, Wall Street Journal, NBC, CBS Entrepreneur and the Associated Press. Krista is passionate about digital marketing and created one of the first accredited certification programs in the world. Krista, thanks so much for joining me. I'm super excited to dig in with this with you today.

Yeah, me too. Thanks for having me.

I'd like to jump right in and let the audience know about your journey into this online, online world and into online courses and your membership that you have.

Yeah, so you know, I, I started off in digital marketing and I would say I was kind of in the right place at the right time.

Right.

So back in maybe 2006, 2007, I was working at, you know, a big Fortune 500 and I started working for an Internet startup at the time and, and that evolved into. It got funded, that evolved into a full time thing and you know, we really had no marketing budget is the truth. So what do you do when you don't have a lot of money? Digital works well. So we started off doing digital marketing and this was right when social media and really online marketing were starting. So I was kind of in the right place at the right time where I dove into this new area right as it was getting traction. So after that startup sold, I was kind of figuring out what my next move would be. And, you know, people started asking me to do consulting for them. And I ran a few social media campaigns for, you know, big companies and things like this. And what I realized, though, was I firmly believed that organizations would get the best results if they did it themselves. And I saw a trend where the people I was doing consultations for, like, 80% of what I told them was all the same stuff, you know, because the foundations and, you know, the basic blocking and tackling is going to be pretty similar. So I thought, well, you know, my consulting rates aren't necessarily attainable for a lot of small or medium businesses, but also most of what they need is, I'm telling everyone the same stuff. And so I started doing courses, and this was before you could really do online courses. I actually used to mail people DVDs. I don't have any more of those lying around, thankfully. But yeah, we used to literally mail people DVDs with our training courses on them. And that was really how I got into it, was that I just felt like it was a more efficient way to help people to understand the space. And then, of course, that was, you know, many years ago, probably I did my first training in 2008 or something like that. And so it's just been an evolution since then. And now, of course, we have a full online platform with membership options, et cetera, but that was really how it evolved.

So I want to go back to the comment on the DVDs, because you were doing all of this around. Did you say like 2006, 2007, maybe a little bit later?

Yep.

So at that time, and just to put it in perspective for folks, because I've been in online education since around 2005, but that was at the university level. And at that level there were platforms out there, learning management systems, we called them, you know, that the universities were using. But there wasn't any of what you would, you know, what a small business owner would use, like Kajabi or Teachable or think of it, those just weren't out there. So that, I guess that's the reason why you started the DVD option in mailing those out.

Yeah, well, and video streaming wasn't what it is now. So the thing was, we had like hours and hours of video content. And at the time, like, I can't remember the limit, but YouTube would only let you upload. I want to say it was under an hour of video like video hosting was expensive and it was buggy and stuff. And there weren't all these membership platform, like none of the infrastructure was there to really do it. And everyone was just mailing these DVDs and you know, in a way the physical product was like, it showed that you were serious.

Right.

Because it's a real thing mailed to somebody. Which now feels ironic, but. But yeah. So it's definitely been a big evolution.

When you first started with your consultation and working with these companies, what type of clients were you working with at the time?

So it was really across the board. You know, I was, I would say, a little lucky in the sense I was in the right time, in the right place. So I started off not knowing that I wanted to specialize in training. I started thinking, okay, let's see where this all goes. And I did some social media management for businesses. Like I ran social media for the biggest digital conference, literally, like I was running their Twitter account and stuff like that. And then I consulted actually with Procter and Gamble, one of their, you know, big global brands. And I built out their whole community manager model they used globally. So I was working with big businesses, but what I found was they also had a capability gap. It wasn't just about execution, but so many small and medium businesses needed help and they just wouldn't be able to afford that one on one consultation of the bigger brands that I worked with.

So when you kind of got into the online courses and started doing the DVDs at that point, was it more of the small and medium businesses that were purchasing your courses?

It was, it was small and medium businesses because at that time. So I specialized initially in social and then kind of expanded to more broadly digital. But at that time, like social media was run by it in a big company. So they just weren't really thinking about it the way they do now. And so. But small and medium businesses were the ones saying, we need to grow and we don't have the budgets. And so people saw social media as a way they could be competitive, and, you know, it still is, but as a way they could be competitive without the big spending. And so that was why they were more the focus area initially of the training that we offered.

So at what point did you move from the DVDs to offering it through like an online platform?

Good question. It has been many years, I can tell you that much. I couldn't even guess. It feels like, you know, I didn't, I hadn't thought about the DVDs in years. But when everything Went virtual. I saw somebody who was like, I've done online training for six years. And I was like, wait a minute, I got you beat. I used to mail DVDs. So that was.

Well, that just fascinates me. So.

Yeah, but it was a long time ago that we made the switch. I can't even remember.

Did you build it out on your own like WordPress type platform or did you. I'm trying to understand. Or was like a kajabi or think of it. Or teachable around at that point in time?

None of those were around at that point in time. So I started off with WordPress. So like our company domain is bootcampdigital.com we did a separate website to host our learn. Actually, at first we had it on our main site, but we had so many videos that slowed the whole website down. So we had like a membership back end on our main site. And I don't recall what we started with, but we've used learndash for a really long time. We started with something else and so it started off part of Boot camp Digital, but it was slowing our whole site down. So we bought a separate domain to kind of keep it clean. And it was just WordPress with a plugin because it was before all of these online LMSs were there and easily accessible. Now I don't know that I would have made the same choice. I don't think it's as necessary, but at the time that was really the best option to get started.

So tell me this, I know you've launched also a lot of books. At what point did you decide to go in to offer. Also offer books and tell me a little bit about your strategy there.

Yeah, so like I've now written six.

Books, which to me in a way seems funny.

It started. So to be honest, I did live courses as well.

So I actually started off. The first courses I did were live. And it's funny how you see the evolution of things because again, like I started doing training before you could do it digitally in an efficient way. Like back then you couldn't live stream or anything.

So I did live trainings.

I would do these boot camps maybe every quarter. And they were like physical trainings. We still do them actually we still do live workshops, but we did these live workshops and then I would do lunch and learns.

And then over time I started syndicating the lunch and learns into online. So we would record with a webcam as well. And then also so you could join in person or virtually was kind of how it evolved. So I was doing all these trainings and for the main boot camps, we did, I did. At the time, I think we had a two day workshop. I had put together this manual to go with it and a friend of mine was like, you need to turn this into a book. Like, you've written literally 100 pages of content, if not more. You could easily package this as a book. And that was what got me thinking about it. I didn't sort of set out to be an author and so I did that and I self published and it was called the Social Media Field Guide. And I self published that and that was really the first step into publishing. But I didn't, you know, it wasn't really so much, oh, I need to write a book. I had kind of written a book to support the training.

Right.

Because when you create a course, if you're doing a good job of it, you have a framework and thought leadership. Turning that into a bunch of words is actually the easy part, in my opinion at least. So, you know, the goal of the book was really to grow my credibility. And at the time I was doing more paid speaking. So, you know, I started off probably like a lot of people speaking at chambers of commerce and industry events. And I had just gotten into paid speaking and I knew that a book would really boost my credibility and my paid speaking career. So that was kind of what prompted me to take the effort to actually publish it into a physical book.

And you're not the first person that I've heard this for. And one of the things that I've also realized throughout the years as I've gone in, you know, gone into the online course world, is that books and online courses almost go hand in hand.

Yeah, well, you know, it's funny because I was just talking to somebody about this a few weeks ago. He's launching a book, right? And he was asking questions about it. And I said, look, you know, at the end of the day, I don't exist to market a book that I make $4 on.

Right.

I mean, think about it.

Absolutely.

The book exists to market me. It's like, you know, people. So people, I think, think of it backwards. So what's nice about a book is it builds your credibility and then it also, especially if you're doing training and, or paid speaking, etc. So like the books we use for all of our workshops, it's kind of like the value add you get physical books. Even now that we're doing our traditional in person workshops, we do live virtual, but we still mail people Copies of the books and you know, it's a nice credibility booster and it's a tangible things they can put their hands on.

So let me ask you this and I'm going to switch gears a little bit more as I've gone through your website and really dug into what you were offering with the Boot Camp Digital. One of the differentiators that really jumped out to me was the fact that it's an accreditation as a certified accreditation. Tell me a little bit about how that evolved and how did you actually get it to be accredited program?

Yeah, so this has been something we've thought about and worked toward in a variety of ways over the years because you know, our space is cluttered at the moment.

Right.

If I think when I started doing training I was the only person doing it. Now you have Udemy, you have Coursera, you have this explosion. So it's really important to differentiate yourself and you can do it with your personal brand for example. But I never wanted that. I wanted my company to be an entity or. So as we looked at it, accreditation became important. And many years ago I had partnered with a university and we created a social media institute and so and that was accredited through like the college accreditation process, which I'm not so familiar with. They kind of did the paperwork but I thought, oh you know, why can't our online programs be accredited or our own programs? But I didn't have the experience to work with post secondary to get it accredited through them ever. You know, we kind of had a few start and stops. So then what we looked at is well, what bodies are there out there that accredit content that are actually industry respected? And so we're now accredited by OMcP, which is in marketing. It's you know, kind of the standard for accreditations. They're based in the US and then we also got accredited through CPD which is a UK based accreditation program. So we actually found places where we could get accredited. And you know, it was a fair amount of work and a fair amount of jumping through hoops to be honest. But I think it makes a difference to set us apart from some of our competitors.

Well, I definitely want to give you kudos for that because I know, you know, I've worked at the university level for over 15 years at a lot of accreditation type programs and it's not easy and I know from experience it's not easy to do that. So I love what you've done there. I loved how you have taken the steps to differentiate your programs. I'd love to Know more about your, you know, how you market your program, what are your traffic strategies, how do you, how do you know ideal clients find you?

So, so part of it I think is because I've done this for so long, our strategies are probably different. Like if I was starting today, I'd probably have to take different approaches. But our number one source of leads comes from search engine optimization. So if you search for a lot of what we do, we rank at the top of search engines. Now we've had an interesting trend there over time because again, we were the first people doing this. Now all these colleges have programs, you know, you have udemy, you have LinkedIn learning like it is a lot more cluttered. So we really had to focus on what makes us different. So we had this interesting dynamic where demand for what we do is increasing, but so is competition. So between those two factors, though, our search optimization has remained steady. Search ads is probably our second sort of biggest thing that drives qualified leads. So if I think of where do our leads come from? Those are the two biggest buckets in terms of scalable repeatable traffic and leads to our website. And then we have an on site lead generation strategy where we have a free digital marketing strategy workshop you can sign up for and it's actually live every month. And we use that to convert people. So that works really well. And then probably the other layer is, you know, through visibility, networking, contacts, that type of stuff. So I would say we get a fair amount where it's like, hey, I saw you speak here, or I saw this webinar that you did over here, or you ran a program for us eight years ago and we're looking at something else. So kind of the referral market, but it's referrals also stemming from general visibility. That would be the third kind of step. So if I think of where probably the bulk of our business comes from, it would be those three things. And then of course I'm active on social media, but if you think of the role that that plays and what I view that as is mostly staying top of mind with warm leads, right? So somebody who I know or who saw me speak or something like that, they're going to start to see my content. So they'll just come to me when they need something. So social media would be the other one. But I do think most of the social media payout is not cold social media. You know, it's somebody who's had some kind of interaction and that's where we see the conversions come from there.

So you mentioned that you would do things differently today if you were just starting in this crowded space, what would you do differently?

Well, it would be way harder to get any search engine traffic.

Right.

So partly, I would say, if I'm fully honest, because we've always got this nice, steady flow from search engines, we can be lazy in a way, right? Because it's just always been there. And once you, you know, once you work for it and set things up and optimize, it kind of is always there.

Right.

So if you were starting, it would be real. It takes years to build that up. So I think that would cause me to have to really look at other channels. I think paid social media is a really good and underutilized channel. We've experimented with it a little bit and seen okay results. So I would probably invest more time and effort there. And also outbound sales.

Right.

In the sense of, you know, I just did a big analysis looking at our biggest competitors to figure out, okay, like, what are their strategies? And what I found really interesting is, like, there's one organization, they're based out of the uk, they're really big, but they don't do any marketing. Like, all of their marketing is horrible and not visible. But they have, I can tell from LinkedIn, they have a giant sales force and we've never done any selling. So I think I would have stepped back. And really, and that's what I'm trying to do now in a way is to step back and say, okay, what are some of the best ways out there to scale and market this versus just being complacent with the traffic that we've always gotten? Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. So in looking at that, you know, doing the competitive analysis that you did and looking at this competitor, were they selling a product that they would sell to, like, B2B, you know, like. Like some of your clients that you've, you know, worked with in the past or they going in and training their marketing staff.

Exactly. They do B2B sales.

Right.

So that was also a bit of.

An evolution, if I think of how our training evolved. Right. I started off doing these. I was based in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I started off doing these workshops and lunch and learns in Cincinnati.

And then all of a sudden, people.

Were flying in for these workshops. And first of all, I realized I'm not charging enough because I'm like, their plane ticket is probably more than my workshop. And secondly, I realized, okay, this can actually scale. Like, I'm not really thinking about this.

Right.

And so then it evolved from there into more online, et cetera. But one of the other evolutions is selling it into corporations. So it started with shirt was a business audience, but individual signups now where we actually see, you know, you look at the marketplace and I think the market for individuals is. It's cluttered.

Right.

And so we try to stand out with our accreditation and you know, we really think about, well, we, you know, if you want to waste your time on a $20 course that you pick up on, you know, Udemy, like, so be it. That's not our ballpark.

Right.

You're in a different lane of what you're trying to achieve than what we can help you with because our stuff is way more in depth, way more serious, proven methods and resources. So we've kind of, for the public market, differentiated ourselves, but we then also saw a niche in being able to focus on corporate groups and teams. And so that's where, you know, if you think about it, one sale, we right now have a project with a global organization where they're putting 3 to 5,000 global marketers through our program. That would take us a lot of time and energy to get individually.

Absolutely. So in that sense, definitely a sales team makes, you know, could bring in that, that business. So I like, I like that for you. And I was just thinking about it. I've been working with a client, he does content marketing and trains in house content marketers. And I was like, you know what? That might be an avenue that he might need to explore in the future. So thank you for bringing that up.

Yeah.

So let me ask you this. It sounds like you just did a competitive analysis and you're looking at ways that you can expand or kind of pivot a little bit or what do you see as the next steps in 2021?

So there's a couple things that struck me when I did it, is one, how much the landscape is changing over time.

Right.

Like, I mean, I do think online courses are competitive now, and you need to really think about your differentiator. I think a lot of people hinge it on themselves and their personality, which is great, you know, and that was where I started, but I wanted something more scalable. So then you have to be even more creative. So what I really see is that with all the options people have, and there's a lot of really low cost options, people will always be willing to pay for higher quality stuff, and they will always be willing to pay for results. Not everyone, but, you know, for me, it took a little bit to be like these people who want to take a course for $20. They're really not serious about this. If you're serious about this as your livelihood, if you really want to be good at this, you. You don't take a $20 course, right? If I'm like, oh, I want to learn how to swim, I don't pay $20 for a weekend course by somebody who says, oh, yeah, I think I could figure out how to teach you. I've been swimming a long time, right? So we kind of said, look, we need to clearly differentiate ourselves. And so that was where we got a little more serious about who our audiences and marketing. The other thing, though, that I found. So I think the one thing you see is there's an explosion in online courses. So it's important to really think about your niche, your proposition and what you're doing. That's different. The second thing, though, I think is there's more opportunity as well. So the. So it's two things coming together. It's more competitive, but there's also more opportunity. And what I think is so amazing, as I looked at all these competitors, right, is like this one company out of the uk, they're growing primarily through sales. Their marketing is horrid. And they have a very aggressive. They have a ton of salespeople, people. There's another organization we looked at, and it's all based on the reputation of the kind of the person who does the trainings, right? It's just based on him. They don't even do search ads. They do nothing paid. It's all organic, based on his reputation and his visibility. There's another company I look at, they spend 65 grand a month on search ads.

That's a lot.

Yeah, I was like. And I thought I was spending a lot, right? So, you know, you step, when you step back like that, what it showed me is that there's different paths to success, right? But if you try and do everything, you'll probably do them all a little bit well and you're not going to get that traction that you need to really get results. And, you know, this is what I tell businesses all the time, but sometimes you need to really hear it for yourself. But like, you know, when a business is like, well, it's so much to do Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn and YouTube, it's like, you know, honestly, many people, including me, could tell you to do all of them. But the truth of the matter is, you know, the million dollar Guy unboxing on YouTube doesn't care about his LinkedIn profile or his Twitter The Instagram influencer does not care about Facebook or YouTube.

Right.

So I think also really dominating one strategy is the key to success. But we feel this pressure to do everything sort of okay. And I think I uniquely feel it because we're a digital marketing company. So I always have told myself, well, you know, we have to have a good Facebook page because we're teaching people this. Yeah, look, I can show you three competitors bigger than me, who don't even have. They have 10 fans on Facebook and.

They don't post anything.

I made this barrier up in my head. You know what I mean? And so what I see is, as the market space is more competitive, it's all about focus. And if you can really focus your efforts behind the things that are ultimately going to lead to your business growth, that's where you'll get traction. But, you know, even if I look where we're at, we do public sales and corporate sales, and, you know, we spread ourselves a little thin. And in a way, on the one hand, I feel like, well, everyone has options then to work with us. But on the other hand, it's hard to get that real focus. So my mantra really now is focus on where the impact is. And so our motto at Bootcamp Digital is drive impact.

Right.

What is really driving impact? And if we look so many of the things we do, they just don't really matter, but we can't let go of them. And then we don't have the resources and capacity to focus on where the big growth could be. So I think as things become more cluttered, that is only becoming more important, that you really need to figure out what are the one or two things that really get clients in your door and just do those and let the rest of it go. And I think that's how you'll see results in a more crowded marketplace.

So thanks for all of those insights. And I love the message that you have learned yourself. And I think it's a good. It's a good learning opportunity for all of us, is to focus on what gets results. My closing question for you is, you've been doing this for a while. Back in the dark ages, when you were sending out DVDs, what advice would you have for other online course creators or entrepreneurs out there?

Yeah, I think there is so much.

Opportunity, and it's easier than ever to.

Execute this stuff, but you really need to make sure you have a solid plan for growth and marketing if you want to be successful. Because I see so many people who focus on creating the content and then they struggle to get butts in the seats.

Right?

And, you know, the truth is, you can even sell stuff to people before you've made it. And we've done that in the past. You know, when TikTok first comes out, we just put up a page, hey, sign up for TikTok training. And if more than five people sign up, then we'll actually make the course. Because the marketing is the harder part than creating the content sometimes. So I think the key really is to really think about who is the audience you serve, what is your unique value proposition, and how can you get in front of them. And if you can really define those three things. Well, I think that's your key to success as the space becomes crowded, because, again, the space is more crowded, but the demand is also higher.

Right?

The online learning industry just continues to grow and grow and grow. So maybe I sound cynical. What I keep saying, like, it's so competitive, and there's these $20 courses. That's true, but demand is growing too, right? So it's really about setting yourself up for success, to capture that growth in demand by really differentiating yourself from the choices that people have.

You know, a lot of the listeners of this podcast might be solopreneurs. What would you suggest to them and how, you know, in this crowded market, what are some of the best ways they can differentiate themselves?

So, to me, I think the key is to look at the other courses in your space and ask yourself, why would someone choose you? It could be your personal reputation. You know, what I see if you're thinking about launching, and I started off this way as well, is that it often comes down to your personal brand and your personal reputation, right? And so people are choosing you specifically. And, you know, some people, like, if I look at my own business, I moved away from that many years ago, but that was because I wanted scalability. And now I have other trainers, right? So I didn't want to have to do all the trainings all the time. So I had a really specific purpose. But that was an evolution, right? The starting point should probably be you and your personal brand. And people say, wow, I want to learn from this person. And so what I would probably step back and look at, if you. If you're. If you're starting out, is to think about, from a personal brand standpoint, why would somebody choose to learn from you so specifically and be deliberate about building and growing your audience from a personal branding standpoint? Because I think that's. That's where you get that traction, and that's where you can stand out from other options. If people specifically want to learn from you, nothing can replace that. You know, you look at Tony Robbins, if it. If they rebranded it to, like, success Mastery or whatever it would be called, no one would sign up for it.

Right.

It's all about him and his method. You could love him or hate him. Right. I don't have a specific opinion on him. I know he's a little maybe controversial to choose, but he's probably one of the biggest names in the, you know, kind of. I don't know that he has online courses, but that.

Well, definitely in the coaching industry. Right, right.

He's like the biggest name where people go to learn stuff, and it's him and it's his personality, and he's not afraid to be a little bold. He's not afraid to be a little controversial. And he's very clear on who he is. You know, there's a lot of people who. I'm in these groups where a lot of people have problems with him. Again, I don't really know much about him, so I'm not trying to say one way or another, but like, a lot of people have negative opinions about him. But you could. That aside, there is no questioning his success. And if you are doing something well, some people will disagree with you.

Right.

And some people will find your style a little obnoxious. And, you know, if I look at. When I go and speak to an audience, I'm going to get outstanding scores. But I guarantee you there will also be people that completely hated my delivery style. But if I stayed in the middle of the road, I would get okay scores from everyone. Instead, 95% of people are going to love me. I'm going to resonate with them. And a handful of people will say, like, oh, she seemed too casual, or I didn't think her jokes were funny. Fine, right. I can happily live with that. But I really think it's about your personal brand and putting a stake in the ground around it a little bit. And, you know, it's something I still am focusing on. Like, I have a clear delivery style. I don't think I bring it to life as well as I could online. And I teach personal branding. That's what my latest book is, Personal Branding. So, like, it's finding sometimes just that magic sauce. But, like, I really think it's. People are going to go to you because they want to learn from you, especially if you're in those early stages. So really think about your personal brand. How do you differentiate yourself? How do you bring that to life because I really think that's what is going to for most people starting out. That's what's going to drive people to choose them. And, you know, over time, you can evolve to different things. But almost all of the people I know that have got some started in online courses successfully. It's not by creating this, you know, random brands. Like, I didn't start out trying to build the Bootcamp Digital brand. I started out in Cincinnati doing lunch and learns with people who knew me or had heard of me and wanted to come.

Right.

And then I grew that into a brand that's bigger than me, but that was like step five. So that's where I see the. That's what I would do if I was starting out, and that's where I see the opportunity. If you have limited resources, Krista, that's some great advice.

Can you let people know where they can find you?

Yeah, absolutely. I am hristanehr on every social network. So it's K r I s t a n e h e r. My company is Bootcamp Digital, and if you're interested more in personal branding, my personal branding book and website is called Launch yourself and we actually have a brand style finder on there that you can take that'll help you to kind of like position yourself a little more uniquely than your competitors, maybe. So it's a free assessment, but you can do this personal brand style finder quiz there that shows which brand archetype you most resemble. And I think a lot. We get a lot of good feedback on that because it's a good discovery tool to help you maybe position yourself more strongly.

Oh, I love that. And that sounds like something fun to go do.

Exactly. And it's super easy and very fun. Yes.

And I will make sure all of those links are in the show notes so people can just click on them and get to you. And Krista, thank you so much for joining me today. I loved hearing about your story and how your business has evolved over the years.

Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you love the show, we'd appreciate a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform and show us some love there. Have a great rest of your day and bye for now.