Leveraging Your Introversion w Matthew Pollard Author of 'The Introverts Edge' MUIYB Podcast

Yeah. Okay.

So let's get into it. I mean, I want to talk about introversion. So let me ask you, do you qualify yourself as an introvert? And where are you on the— is it the spectrum? Is that the word to use?

Well, yeah. So I think that psychologists make it way too confusing. I think that, you know, you're either introverted or you're extroverted. I hear people talk about all the time, oh, I used to be introverted. Now I'm more extroverted. And it's really about where you draw your energy from.

The way I see it.

I mean, I've done back-to-back interviews like this today, and I was just talking to my wife downstairs that I am ecstatic that this is my last one because I am wiped. However, if I was sitting down in front of my laptop and just working away, I'd be charging up. And that's really the difference. It's where you draw your energy from. So if you draw your energy from being with people, like I would assume you might, you know, you're extroverted. If you draw your energy from being by yourself, you're introverted. It doesn't mean that you can't sell, market, you know, network, speak from stage. It just means that afterwards you're tired. It's like, it doesn't mean you can't even enjoy it. I mean, for me, when I do interviews like this, I feel like a kid at Disneyland. I have a great time. I have a great conversation. It just means that, you know, I want to lie down afterwards and I get the realism of how exhausted I am. Okay.

Because that's what I was going to ask you is, is you have to do this. Like this is how you promote your book, the work you do. So you're required to do this, but it's only sustainable to a certain point is what I'm hearing.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I batch these as well. Like, the reason why I have a whole bunch of interviews today is tomorrow I've got creative work to do. And I, you know, if I do a podcast in the morning, there is no creative part of me for hours afterwards. So I have to manage my energy the right way. It doesn't mean that I can't do this. It does mean I have to prepare a lot more. Like, you're a lot more off the cuff than I am, and yeah, we're talking about what I know well. then I have no problem talking in detail about these things. And when I go networking or go out and sell, sometimes something will come up that I'm not prepared for. And because it's one thing, not 100 things that if you're prepared for sales or networking in general, I can usually cope really well or there's something similar that I'll be able to link to. And then because of that, I come across as organic and dynamic. However, when I first started, it required a lot of practice. It required me really thinking about the way a sale would go or the way a networking the way a podcast interview would go. Now, I mean, we were saying just before this, it was like, ask me whatever you want. No problem. That's because I'm 150+ interviews in. I just know what I'm doing.

Yeah. Okay.

Okay.

I gotcha.

So, but is there, I use the word spectrum by kind of saying it flippantly, but I also, I'm curious, people can be more introverted. I've also heard this term ambivert. How does someone determine where they are beyond just the energy and And does that even matter to put ourselves in this category? Does that start to hamper us?

Yeah. So firstly, I think it does matter. And the reason why is, and it really matters for the people, as you would put it, that are further down the introverted spectrum. And I would also say further down the extroverted spectrum. Because let's say a lot of extroverts really struggle with things like active listening and empathy. These are, you know, introverted specialties. It's like our advantage. The difference is that what I find is Extroverts will realize that they have those disadvantages and they'll go and do training to get better at it, or HR in an organization will see that they struggle with those things and send them to training. But with introverts, especially the ones that are further down that spectrum, it's like, "Oh, they're an introvert. They're never going to be able to do that. So, you know, we just have to deal with that." Or, you know, the amazing amount of times I've seen people that have just accepted subpar results in their sales team, in their senior leaders, just because they're introverts and they're never going to be able to succeed. And it's because there's this gift of gab barrier. It's like this self-imposed wall that we put on ourselves, and then we put it on everybody else. And it's ridiculous. I mean, Zig Ziglar, probably the most well-known speaker and trainer in the sales world, was an introvert. Jeb Blount is an introvert. Ivan Misner, the founder of BNI, also an introvert. Yet we just say, "Oh no, that person is good on stage. That person's a good salesperson. They must be extroverted." It's just, it's not true.

Interesting. It's funny, as you're sharing this too, I would qualify myself slight slant toward introvert, which externally people are like, but you like to be on stage. You like to be so funny. You try to be funny, which I'm goofy maybe at best. But, um, I, we, I, when it comes to the energy source, uh, I get more energy out of, uh, project time being by myself. Well, your book, The Introvert's Edge, well, that's your pinnacle book. That was your first book. What is the edge? Like what advantage do, if I can put myself in the introvert category, what do we have that others don't necessarily?

Yes. So I think that our advantage actually, so I always say, you know, that our struggles in the past really seed the success of our future. And, you know, introverts without a sales system, I mean, let's face it, we kind of suck at selling. But with a system, we can be amazing at it and we get better and better. So, you know, an extrovert, they love to wing it. And they can succeed pretty well at winging it. But every day they're winging it. So they're just as bad or just as good as they were yesterday. Right.

There's no repeatability.

Exactly. I mean, everything you talk about in all your books is, you know, you've got to have systems and ways of looking at things. Well, for me, it was like, well, with this world of sales, why is it that everyone says you can either do it or you can't? Well, the truth is an introvert can do it. But what they have to do is gravitate to a regimented system. Now, the focus of a system, just like anything else, it feels cumbrous and difficult at the start, but over time it starts to feel comfortable. And then you can say, "Okay, we've now got this system. Now we want to put continuous improvement, right? We want to focus on improving little elements, but we'll improve one thing at a time so that we know what's blowing up in our face if it goes wrong." So the great thing is that because introverts are terrible at selling without a system, we kind of hold onto it for dear life. And because of that, we get better and better. We become obsessed with the system. And that's a huge advantage because at the start, we may struggle, but then eventually, the extroverts will like, "Oh, those guys, they're always causing issues. They misexplain things to clients." Why? Because they're explaining it differently every time, where an introvert explains it exactly the same. And that's why we do so well. And I mean, this isn't new stuff. Brian Tracy talks about, I mean, he's definitely an extrovert, by the way, but he talks about the top 10% of all sales performers have a planned presentation. Well, if you think about planning, I mean, that is an introvert's edge, right? We love to plan. We love to prepare. Compare, and because of those abilities, that allows us, especially if we've got the right system, to leverage our empathy, our ability to actively listen, and then, of course, we follow a system. So, those are real advantages that we have. So, but I mean, he says that the bottom 80%, they just say whatever comes out of their mouth. And if you think about it, if an introvert just says whatever comes out of their mouth compared to an extrovert, we're probably not going to do as well. I mean, we get stuck in our head a lot of the times in the moments past, or we just, you know, we get too much into the jargon and the detail, especially in industries like technology. Technology and finance, a lot of times, especially when we're talking about highly complex products or services, a lot of times we think it's our job to explain all of these things to a client at a networking event or when we're selling, when we're just, you know, meeting with people casually, and it's just overwhelming for people. So introverts need to learn how to make that information more palatable and they can, you know, they can come up with stories, especially if they know their niche, they can come up with stories that easily explain it while embedding them as the only logical choice. And then all of a sudden, they're turning off the fire hose and they're instantly more relatable to the client.

Now I can see why that 150 podcasts serves you, right? So you start building this routine and process. Does it need to be documented to get the edge or is this something that just by the nature of being an introvert, we start building the systems in our mind?

Yeah. So the answer is both. And originally, and the reason why I would say both is because if I'm a sole trader, I just work for myself, I am my salesperson, right? So Because of that, yes, it is something that I can do in my head. However, I would prefer to practice it and practice it and make sure I'm following the same process. So I do prefer to document it down. And the reason for that is, especially when you're learning, like for me now, it's something that I do in my head. I'm like, okay, Mike's got this whole new focus on his interview, so he's going to take me probably well off left field, but here are the real things that I— So I plan out what things I do want to talk about, but because I've done so many interviews and been asked so many strange and deviating questions, I know how to handle those as well. But when I first started, I would study the flow of the interviews that would come up and what I was going to answer for each one. And I'd start off almost scripting out what I was going to say so I could practice. Then I went to, okay, I'll just dot point out what I'm going to say because now I'm getting better at it and I've got some things, some anchor points to leverage. And now I'm much more natural and comfortable. But a lot of the things I'm talking about are things I've talked about many times before, but not in the same interviews perhaps. Really what it comes down to is, especially when you're selling is always, I mean, especially most introverts never want to be selling their entire life, right? Their dream is that they'll put on a salesperson or create an automatic sales process online so they never have to sell. So for me, I always start with that in mind. And for me, any introvert that thinks they can just hire a salesperson, I know accountants are like this, they're like, I just want to hire a salesperson, have them go out and sell.

Rainmaker.

Yeah, exactly. The problem is that means you're going to hire a $150,000 person and they're going to give you every excuse in the book for the next 6 months while you continue to pay them and you'll buy all these excuses because you think sales is hard. And 6 months will go by, you paid them $75,000 and you've got nothing out of it. So the thing that you need to do is learn how to sell, learn how to network yourself, make sure you get everything that you say documented, and then you'll hand it to a salesperson and they'll say, "Oh no, it'd be better if I sell it my way." That's them saying, "I don't want to do that. That sounds like a lot of work." But think back to every movie you've ever watched, right? They're all reading from a script, right? They sound authentic because they practice. So I always say, sure, Well, eventually, you'll be able to do whatever you want, but first, why don't you learn this? Once you prove to me you know this and you can do it well, then if you want to change things afterwards, we can talk about it. Of course, once they've learned it, they think it's amazing and their closure rate is so high, they never want to change it. So the goal for introverts, if you want to get yourself out of the sales process, just like if you want to get yourself out of administration, you have to create a process that other people can follow to the letter and that brings— it gets rid of all the variability and it makes sure that you have the highest statistical chance of success Yes, every single time.

Yeah, it's funny you're talking about salespeople. I found that, um, good salespeople are good about— are good at about one sale every 6 months, which is selling their reason to have that job, and then they get fired and they sell the next job. Great salespeople can actually sell. Uh, this may be a strange and deviating question because you said sometimes you get asked strange and deviated questions, which may throw you off totally, but what's like one of the strangest, most deviating questions you've gotten? Is it this one?

You know, it's interesting. I get people ask me, well, the hardest question I've ever found to answer is, you know, tell me something about yourself no one knows. And I'm like, have you not seen any of my presentations? I like put photos of myself with terrible acne up on stage so that people can see me as I was. Like with me, I don't hold back because the problem is, I mean, you and I are having this conversation and you've just outed yourself as an introvert. And I talk about the fact that I'm an introvert, but let's face it, if you saw us in general day to day, people would be like, oh, that guy, it's easy for him.

It's not easy for me.

So because of that, I give away everything. But you know, I get asked random questions like, you know, if you were a color, what would you be? And I'm like, what? What has that got to do with a podcast interview? And it's like, you know, it's one of these mood kind of podcasts. And I'm like, okay, well, I clearly should have listened to that podcast. But you know, when I started, I listened to every single episode. So I'd listen to 1 or 2 episodes before I would do a podcast. Now, you know, I've got back-to-back interviews. You know, if it's a big one, I'll listen to 1 or 2. Just to get the idea of the flow. But a lot of the smaller ones, I just, you know, I just don't have the time to do it. But once you get the system down, it's fine. But yeah, the hardest questions I always get asked is, you know, well, some weird questions like, like what you just said, what I just said.

Yeah.

The biggest questions that I get asked is tell me something that, you know, I haven't told anyone, that you haven't told anyone before. And when you've done it—

Oh, I hate that question. That's called lazy interviewing.

Yeah.

So what's one question you've been asked I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Okay.

Well, I actually had to come up with one recently. So, yeah. So, and I'm not going to, I'm going to say the name of the podcast, but there's one of these, you know, top 10 podcasts in the world. And the guy's a good friend of mine, but I had to still fill out his interview form. He's like, what's one thing you've never told before? And I had to really think. And I'm like, well, I've never actually told this story. I've written it in the book, but you asked me what story I've never told. Oh, there you go. So I've written about it in the book, but you know, what was interesting, and this is actually a really cool story. So now, you know, I've already submitted the application. So it won't story I haven't told before after this. But when I wrote this book, The Introvert's Edge, what was interesting was I put it out there and I sent it— you know, one of the people that picked up the book was somebody that actually worked with me on Small Business Festival, which is a conference I run to put out free events all across the country for small business owners. And he had it on the coffee table and his son, who's super introverted, I'm talking, you know, hoodie over, looks at the shoes the whole time, he picked up the book and he's always been really interested in business books. So he read And he went, "Wow, if you can systemize a sale, maybe I can systemize the process of making friends." Oh, interesting. So he was in primary school and also middle school here in America. He was in middle school and he walked around with my book for like a month and he would start the process of having dialogue. Well, fast forward about 3 months, the hoodie's off, he's got friends, he's got a— there's a girl in the picture and his life is different. He's now one of the popular kids. And it was all because what he realized is that conversational dialogues went the same way. So what happened is we had a whole bunch of people say, Matt, it's great systemizing the sales process. Now I'm closing more leads, but I need more leads to come in so that I can sell to them. So can you have a book on networking? And for people that don't know my backstory, I mean, I had a reading speed of a 6th grader in late high school. So writing for me is not fun. I literally write things out and then listen to it with a robot voice so I can hear it. I mean, it's why my books all sound so conversational because if it doesn't, I feel like it's like nails on a chalkboard. But because of this story with him, I was like, wow, if this kid can really see the fact that you can systemize making friends, I need to do more of these. And obviously, the next natural trajectory was we need to do one on networking. So that's why we bought this one out. But also, I mean, I moved from Australia to the United States and didn't know anyone and then built a really good network really quickly. So people have always asked me how I did that. So it was a great opportunity to really decode that and show people.

Do you plan on doing more books after The Insider's Edge— The Introvert's Edge to Networking? Are you going to do more books beyond that?

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, it's going to be a series. So there'll be a ton of books that will come off the back of it. But that being said, you know, for me, I mean, my mission is really about helping introverts realize that they're not second-class citizens. Their just path to success is different to that of an extrovert.

Yeah.

And that extends well beyond just what I can teach. So At the moment, I mean, the first book, let's face it, there wasn't really that many books on introversion. And most of the books on introversion focused on, "Poor you, you're an introvert. Let me show you how to survive in an extroverted world." So that's why the book was called The Introvert's Edge. It was like, forget that. Let me show you how to dominate in an introverted world. But the second book, you know, is now really looking at much more of a general topic like networking. But I mean, let's face it. I mean, there's only a certain amount of topics that I can write and have a real high-level approach to. So there will be a few more that I will write, but I want the mission to extend well beyond me. So that's why on my Introvert's Edge podcast, I'm always interviewing what I call Titan introverts about what their struggles were and how they became successful, what systems they had and what they consider their introvert's edge. But eventually the books will open up to every topic under the sun that I can think of that would be considered an extroverted arena. So we'll open up to leadership, to public speaking, probably to things like parenting, to making friends, to dating perhaps. I want to see this become become a much bigger topic than what I would consider myself a master in and really open it up to other authors that will still open to the storytelling format but share it with the world.

So smart. I did that with Profit First. There's Profit First. We did for verticals. So for contractors, for e-commerce providers. Very smart strategy. So let me ask you about your own personal life. So you were, a lot of people may not know this, you were a door-to-door salesperson. It's funny because you're an introvert. You don't want to be out there networking. And it sounded like it was a pretty tough journey, but you stuck through it. Tell me a little bit about that story.

Yeah, sure.

I mean, so I mean, you know the story well.

There's no way I should be where I am today. Like none. I mean, I was, and this is what I talk about in a lot of my stage presentations is, you know, I'll tell a few stories because I think stories are a great way to educate and inspire. I mean, there's science behind that as well. But the thing that, you know, most people get to about two-thirds of my presentation, you can see all the introverts in the room going, oh, it's easy for you though.

But you know, for me, it's difficult. Difficult.

You know, I'm an introvert. I can't do it. So I talk about, you know, my story of how I got to where I am. And I mean, yeah, for me, I had a reading speed of a 6th grader. I actually had the glasses for the people that are watching this on your YouTube channel. But I got diagnosed with this thing called Irlen syndrome, which means I put on a pair of funny colored lenses and miraculously—

Throw them on. Let's see what it looks like.

You're going to get this for a second, right? I do this on presentations as well, right?

Oh, there you go.

Now they've actually changed from like a dark gray to the blue ones that you see now over time. But But what was happening is I put on these pair of glasses and yeah, I can, I can learn to read, but I can't learn, like I can't read like everyone else in my year. I've got to start the process of learning. Like that's when my development began. So here I was with, you know, the reading speed issues. I'd been used to being the slow kid. I had horrible acne and, you know, braces back then. And now I've got to put on funny colored lenses. So it wasn't really big for my confidence. So I got into the top 20% of the state in Victoria, Australia. I found I could see I was exhausted. There was just, I had nothing left in the tank and I didn't know what I wanted to do. So we just agreed I'd spend a year finding myself. But I mean, what happened was I took a job at a real estate agency, not in the front office, don't worry, in the back office doing data entry. I had this look on my face like, don't speak to me, I'm here to find myself, right? And 3 weeks into that job, my boss comes up to me and he's like, Matt, I'm so sorry. We just found out they're closing down this office. You're out of a job. So this is Australia, right? I mean, everyone knows everything's, you know, backwards in Australia, right? So summer and Christmas at the same time. We go on holidays from the 20th of December to the 15th to 20th of January. I mean, no one's hiring. If you're a small business especially, you're like, no thank you, I'm about to take a month off, I don't want to carry another wage for a month-long break. So the only jobs I could find in the paper were these 3 jobs and they were all commission-only sales roles. And I mean, as you can imagine, that was terrifying to me. But the only thing that was worse was going home to tell my father who broke his back 80 hours a week, that's it, I'm just out of a job and I'm going to sit and watch Oprah. For the next year. So I just went, you know, I'm going to apply for them anyway. And my confidence was boosted by the fact I got on the phone to all 3 and they all gave me an interview.

And then I found I got all 3 jobs.

It turns out commission-only jobs just hire everyone. Well, that's it. So my manager— I took a job in door-to-door direct, you know, business-to-business telecommunications. And the manager on day 1, he said, we've got the saying, we throw mud up against the wall and we see what sticks. Which is fun until you're the mud, right? So I was like, okay, so then I'm going to learn how to sell here, right? 5 days in, it was all product training. Then they throw me out on a road called Sydney Road in Melbourne, Australia, and they're like, go sell.

I'm like, I don't even know what to say.

So I take a deep breath, I walk into the first door, and luckily I was politely told to leave. I mean, the next door I was less politely told to leave, then I was sworn at.

But my personal favorite was always, what are you going to get a real job?

I'm like, oh, the insult to injury.

Yeah, yeah.

So I was like, all right, So door after door, this happened until I got to the 93rd door where I made my first sale. And I was ecstatic for about 45 seconds until I had that realization that that $70 was great today, but tomorrow I've got to do this again and the next day. So I mean, I went home and I think a lot of people that are listening right now, we kind of live in this world where, and you know, it's funny, small business, we've got this whole mentality now, we're just going to grind it out. We'll just hustle through it. And that seems to be a good thing. I mean, it's definitely better than quitting, don't get me wrong, which is what 18 of the 20 people in my training group But I went, well, no, I mean hustling it out every day doesn't sound great either. So I went, I'm going to decide that sales is a system, a system like anything else, and I'm going to go away to learn it. Now again, with my reading speed issues, picking up a Brian Tracy or Zig Ziglar book, not going to happen. But you know, what I did do is I went to YouTube and I typed in sales system and all these videos came up. And then I just focused on a system and every day I'd focus on 8 hours practicing, 8 hours at home, from learning how to do it. And then I'd go out the next day and put it to work.

And literally it went from 93 doors to 76 to 41 to 32 to 12 down to 3. I mean, it was only 6 weeks in. It was only really 6 weeks. Because I mean, everyone's like, oh yeah, but it takes too long to learn. 6 weeks in, my manager puts me, pulls me into his office. I thought I did something wrong because I was the quiet guy. I just hand my paperwork in downstairs, go upstairs, keep to myself. And literally he said, Matt, we just printed out the national sales results. You're actually the number one salesperson in the company. I mean, this place had thousands of sales reps and I'm the number one. And it was all because I just focused on every day, system, system, system.

Oh my gosh. So you were averaging 3 sales a day, a sale every 3 doors. Did you leave that job ultimately because you were looking for something new or how'd that come to conclusion?

So actually what happened, so I got promoted straight after that because apparently because you're a good salesperson, you're also a good sales manager.

Oh, mistake. Yeah.

So I mean, we've all seen that. Oh, you're an amazing salesperson. So go and teach those people, especially extroverts, right? Just do what I do.

Well, that doesn't work.

So I got given a team, all 20 people quit within 24 hours. So, oh nice. Did not work. So back to YouTube, learned how to manage and actually got pretty good at it. So I got promoted about 7 times in the space of a year. Year. But what I noticed is every time I got promoted, I would earn less because they give me a little bit more of everybody else, but I was getting promoted so quickly and I got less time to go out and sell. And I went, this is ridiculous. I got to own the shop. So I decided about 12 months in to go and start my own business. And I started telecommunications, was all I knew back then. And literally, so within the space of 3 years, we became the number 1 brokership for B2B cell phones in the country in Australia. And then fast forward a decade, I mean, I've been responsible for 5 multimillion-dollar success stories. That was, you know, just before I turned 30. And I hopped on a plane and came over to closer to your side of the world.

So here's the thing. I think many people, and I'm speaking for myself, I think many people associate introversion to lack of drive. But I'm hearing that's not true, especially your story. I mean, introverted and extreme drive, Is that a good assessment that introversion where we get energy and our drive is not correlated?

Oh, not correlated at all. I mean, let's just say I needed to have drive because the world did not work for me, period. I mean—

There you go.

And because of that, it was like everything was hard for me. So when I struggled at sales, it was just, oh, this is just the next thing I've got to, you know, grind it through. But I always went, the way everyone else says to do it doesn't work for me. So therefore, I was always open to finding another path. So that was always a big thing for me. So introverts, I think that we create excuses for ourselves. And I think that's the difference. Like, I mean, let's face it. If you look at really highly introverted career paths, you've got accounting, financial planning, legal, IT. I mean, these are not—

Mortuaries, just adding that in.

Yeah, actually, this January before the whole COVID thing, I was the featured keynote speaker at Dead Talks. No!

Zed Talks?

Are you kidding me? You know, it's a play on TED Talks.

Of course, I get it.

That's awesome.

I didn't know it existed.

Yeah, so it's put on by the National Association of Cemeteries and Crematoriums.

God, I love those people.

Right?

But they're all small businesses, right? So they asked me if I could speak because when I first got into speaking, I was— my first, one of my first big keynotes was the Order of the Golden Rule. And I went, well, I'll take what's coming. And the Order of the Golden Rule was was for a group of kids that were taking over their parents' cemetery businesses to, you know, how— sorry, funeral parlor businesses and how they could get ready. So I did my research. Like, funnily enough, a lot of speakers don't research what they're doing, but I did my research before I went in and I created this almost like, you know, pitch the boss kind of thing with their parents. And, you know, I built a keynote around it. It was such an interactive thing. I got this reputation as the guy to hire in the funeral parlor and cemetery industry. So I still get invited to go and speak at That is actually funny.

It's ironic. It's a little bit ironic.

Well, I love doing it, but yes, you're right. It's a very introverted industry. Data analytics is another one. Actually, custom home building is another one. I have a ton of custom home builder clients because the good ones, especially the ones that do the multimillion dollar builds, they had to really understand building. They went deeper. And because of that, that's that analytical mind. So I wouldn't say introverts aren't willing to do the hustle. What I would say is introverts are very willing to do the hustle if they can see a path path where success is possible. And I think that's the difference. Extroverts know that they can succeed at these things. So, they're willing to do the grunt work. But can you imagine knowing that you are likely going to fail? Why would you put in the effort? And that's literally what introverts do to themselves. They say, "Well, I can't sell. I can't network. So, I just have to accept the fact that I'm going to have subpar performance in my sales abilities." And that sucks because if you're a business owner, that means you can't live a life that revolves around you, your family, and your life because you're always going to have have to put twice as much work in than the extroverts, and it's also not true. So the fact that people believe this to be true is why, you know, I put so much energy into these podcasts because it's really the only way I can help. I mean, even if people don't buy my books, you know, it's not about that. It's really about them understanding that as introverts, their path to success is just different. And when they embrace that, they can really start looking for the paths that get themselves to the outcomes that they truly want for themselves in their personal life and in their career.

Is.

I really like that. You know, I think extroverts, and it, it translates in some cases to overconfidence. So therefore there's a lack of preparation. When we hear from introverts, it's a, in some cases, a lack of confidence, which then results in more preparation. So that balances it out, right? So maybe the extrovert is kind of the rabbit out of the race, but then the introvert's more the turtle. It has the confidence and it doesn't stop. I want to talk about the introvert's, uh, edge to networking specifically. So So is there a couple of hacks, tricks that you can give us introverts on how to network from the book?

Yeah, absolutely. So if we focus on two, I mean, the first one, I would really say the biggest problem that introverts have, I mean, it extends well past, like an extrovert has this problem as well, but their big buoyant personality gets them around it. But for an introvert, it's the problem of when people ask us what we do. I mean, what is it that you do, Mark? What is it that you do, Matt? And it's all of a sudden, well, I'm a business coach or I'm an accountant and people go, oh, I've got one of those. Oh, well, now that's awkward. What do I say to that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my first experience when I moved to the US before I figured out how to network the right way, because all my success, all my network in Australia was because of my success in business. When I got here and I decided that I wanted to have more of a personal brand teaching people sales and marketing, I went, oh, I'm a sales trainer. I'm a sales trainer. And then he went, oh, I had a really bad experience with a sales trainer and he then And then explain the story about how that person was just like one step above a scam artist, and that's how he's looking at me. Wow, that's terrible. Or we could hit a winner and they're like, "Oh, I've been dying to hire a coach. How much do you cost?" Well, now we've got to talk about price. Like, we've just met, right? It's still not positive. So the thing that introverts especially need to do is change that balance. And what I suggest is creating what I call a unified message. So, you know, I'll give an example. I mean, when I worked with with a girl called Whitney. When she came to me, I mean, she was a copywriter.

Was her last name Houston by any chance? I'm just curious.

No, no, it wasn't.

Oh, okay.

No, I would've worked with her though. I wouldn't have turned her down. I don't think she has that problem. I think everybody tries to tell them what they do. But with Whitney, she actually, she came to me and I mean, she lived in the old, I mean, COVID's really shifted this for a lot of people now, but this was before COVID where And she literally, she had 4 clients that were paying her $2,500 a month as copywriters. And she was doing that for the longest time. And then what she found is one client left her because they got bought out and they started doing the work elsewhere. One just went broke. And then, so she's down to half her revenue. Then she calls me and it takes a few months to get booked in with me. But by the time we got working together, she lost another client. So she's down to $2,500 a month. And I mean, that's less than what she was paying the childcare while she worked. So she's like, "Well, I really need to do something about this." But she explained that her industry now has become, it's just so commoditized. I mean, you've got client people that are in China willing to do it. You've got people in England, Australia. Instead of just dealing with client, the city of competitors, you're dealing with the world of competitors. And so because of that, people aren't willing to commit to $2,500 subscription. They're like, do this piecemeal, do this piecemeal. And that meant that she was working harder to get the deals, then she had to invoice. There was no guaranteed income and everything was cheap. So what she asked me to, like what I suggested is we need to sidestep that battle altogether. So what I noticed is of all the things that she did for all the people that she'd worked with in the past, for some reason I started to notice there was this infinity that she had with people in the health tech space.

Okay.

Well, and I said, what is it about the health tech space that seems to set you on fire? And she goes, I can't believe that you noticed that. I had a pretty significant heart condition years ago and it was because of the health technology that was around at the time that without that I wouldn't be around today. And so she has this passion for health technology. And I said, well, that's terrific. I said, one of the things that I, what do you think the issues are with the people in the health tech space? And she said, well, a lot of them, they had this great technology, but the only way they know to get clients is really to put their message in like advertising. Right? They try everything else. It doesn't work. They put their money into ads. And as soon as they spend money, finish spending money on ads, the clientele stops. So because of that, they end up in a lot of hardship. I said, okay, so what would you do about it? She said, well, firstly, I have to help them understand that their avatar, they have no idea what that is. Right? They're just writing to their golf buddies at home or their VC friends, the people that are already rich, but not the people that actually have the health condition. So I would help them understand who their avatar is, and then after that, what I would do is then help them audit all their content to realize they're writing to their golf buddies or to their friends and family.

That's it.

And help them realize they need a content tree that speaks directly to that audience. And then I'd set up a distribution plan for them. I said, great, why don't we then take a step back and say, just do that. We call— I call it a Trojan horse package, but I said, just offer helping them work out what their avatar is helping them realize they're not writing to that audience, the content tree and the distribution plan. And then at the end of that, hand it back to them and say, you can either hire someone internally, get your team internally to fix it, or they can hire someone, but you come in as an external contractor. I said, but you're never going to get their attention unless you stop calling yourself a copywriter. So I said, why don't we call you the Mission Maven instead? So we called her the Mission Maven. She focused just on health tech. We created these powerful stories. Stories that allowed her to really get that interest. Well, within the space of 30 days, she got her first client for $3,500 to do that package. But then we had this whole plan that at the end of that, she would say simply, just a simple couple of sentences that said, "Now, we will give you the scope of work. This is what you need and this is how much I would suggest you pay." Before she got to the end of that, the guy said, "Can't you just do it?" And she responded, "Well, normally we only work exclusively with a couple of clients just to stay at the top of our game and we do this as an independent contractor, but we've really enjoyed working with you. So yes, we can take you on. We do have one more space available, but the price for that would be $10,000 a month. And the client said, yeah, sure.

Oh my God.

Literally 60 days later, like literally within the same 60-day period, another client didn't interrupt her, but she said, you know, we don't usually do this. We've just enjoyed working with you so much and we've had an opening. And at the end of that, the client said, sure. Within the space of less than 6 months, she had 4 of those clients. She was taking in just over $40,000 a month. Month.

Oh my God. Almost 10 times the revenue she lost on a monthly basis.

Absolutely. 18 months later, she was acquired by a big digital agency that didn't know how she was getting those clients and saw the Mission Maven as the difference. But here's the thing. When you go into a networking event, you say, I'm the Mission Maven instead of I'm a copywriter. I'm a copywriter. Oh no, thanks. We've already got one or I'm not interested.

I know what it is.

Absolutely. Mission Maven, it's like your brain has a malfunction. I don't understand. What exactly is that? Now you get the permission from that person to educate them because they asked. And if you do it in a networking event, if you respond with, you know, your passion for helping health tech, say, and then your mission that you're on to help them realize that they're not speaking to their avatar and they're speaking to the wrong demographic. So that's why you do what you do. Let me give you an example. And then you tell a story and story is key. We can talk further about that if you like. But getting into a story about what makes sense, that gets them to go, wow, that's really interesting. Online, it works exactly the same way. So during COVID I had one client that literally, she was making no money and then her husband got cancer 6 months before and she, immune deficient, so he couldn't go outside. So she's in COVID, she just learned to do it in the networking room. She's in COVID well before COVID even happened and she had her biggest month, biggest payment month ever. Digitally because the same thing applies. If you can't articulate the value of what you provide in 2 minutes when somebody's politely listening, how are you ever going to do it online? So you need to get it right in the networking room. And I mean, my whole focus on networking is to make you amazing inside the room so you never have to go back into one unless you want to.

So I should ask this first about the book. Is networking even— I shouldn't say even necessary— is it necessary? Is there any way around it? If I'm an introvert and that gives me terror. Is there a way around networking or is it a necessity?

So it's a necessity for a period of time. And well, actually I should say it's a necessity always in my mind, but you don't have to go into networking rooms to do it always. And actually, I'll give you a good example. So Ryan Deiss, I'm not sure if you know, he's the founder of Digital Marketer.

I do know Ryan.

Yeah.

Yeah. So actually I think he endorsed your last book actually.

He did. Actually, we just had a call a couple of days ago. We're calling again, just talking about ways ways of working together. Just the interesting little vignette here, because maybe it speaks into strategy. I heard through the grapevine he was talking about Profit First, so I found out he was a Texas Longhorn fan, so I sent him a football helmet from the college team. He called me, he's like, dude, we just gotta talk. And so we've built up this dialogue recently. I wonder if that's part of networking. And I'm not trying to distract from your— the question I asked you, but I just wonder if there's something there. So, so back to the question, is networking necessary?

Well, that is networking. I mean networking is being authentic, right?

But there are stages to it.

So let's face it, Ryan may not have reached out to you unless you were who you were, right? So there are levels. You have to build some original, some initial social capital. But I mean Ryan and I are friends. I mean he spoke at Small Business Festival, my conference in Austin.

Oh, cool. He's been on my podcast.

He's endorsed both of my books.

But you know, Ryan's a great guy.

Also, by the way, in the intro of and you know he owns, he founded Traffic and Conversion Summit, right? It's one of the biggest people marketing conferences in the world.

Oh yeah.

Backstory for him is he's terrified to speak on stage only if he has to walk off stage in front of everybody. As long as he's got a back entrance and he can walk in and out, he's totally fine. Oh, that's funny. When he gets asked to speak and if anyone wants him to speak, Ryan's always open to speaking, but you better have a back entrance that he can go in and out of because because he's not worried about speaking from stage. He's worried about being pummeled by people running over him when he gets off stage. That's his thing. But what was interesting is, so I asked Ryan Dice the question because, I mean, let's face it, he's got one of the best digital marketing brands in the world. That's where you go if you want to learn how to digitally market.

And I asked him the question. I said, Ryan, you're the guy that teaches people how to make money on the internet. Can I avoid networking? Can I avoid sales? Can I avoid ever speaking to a person? He said, absolutely yes. Eventually. The reason why he said eventually is he said, when he launched his first product at Traffic and Conversion, they wanted to create a corporate consulting product. He said from stage, we're going to be launching this product. Here's a basic gist of what it's going to look like. Now, if you want to talk further, I will be standing over there, and he pointed to his stand and he said, I had over 100 conversations in the space of 3 days. It was by far the worst 3 days I've ever had in my life. He said, but by the end of it, he said, I knew exactly what stories worked, what things I could say that would trigger interest, what things I shouldn't say. He said, at the end of that, we wrote the sales scripts for the sales team. We wrote the copy for the website. We never had to really worry about it. I don't sell the product now. They do. And I feel the same way. So for me, the reason I went to networking events first was because I didn't know what I was doing and I had to work out a system that made made it work for me, but where I could still be my authentic self. And I think especially if you're selling yourself as a service provider, that's actually a lot tougher because if they say no, you feel like they're saying no to you, unless it's an external system. And there's a way that you can navigate that system where they feel like you're just giving them so much, but what you're doing is motivating and inspiring action while helping embed yourself as the only logical choice. But once you've nailed it, I mean, literally I get to the point now where I go to a networking event event. And to them, it's an organic conversation. But for me, it feels like Groundhog Day because I've had that conversation 50 times before. By the way, Bill Murray, you know that eccentric guy in Groundhog Day? He's an introvert as well. Most people don't know.

Is he really?

He's an introvert himself. So again, he gets into his own little world. I mean, he's got that quirky, natural, funny personality type that, you know, you seem to be able to do that really well as well. That's not my thing. But you guys seem to share that characteristic. But for me, when I go to networking events, because I've looked at them in a lot of different ways and I've planned out my system and I'm well-practiced, and that's the key, right? I'll always get somebody to role-play with me before I go when I'm trying a new product or a new service so that I tell them to be the worst customer, period, or the worst type of prospect. So when I get in a networking room, it's not that hard. So with strategy and preparation and practice, you can dominate in the networking room. But once you've got that messaging so concise and so clear, you can use it online. I mean, these days, I mean, and I'll be honest with everybody here, every business that I built before I turned 30, they were all bricks and mortar, telemarketing, direct sales. I mean, I didn't even know how to change the word "the" to the word "they" on a website.

Terrible.

When I moved here, I went, "Oh, well, if I ever want to visit my family in Australia, I don't want to have 50 staff to worry about. So I'm going to create an online brand that's predominantly leveraged." and so I decided to learn online. And here's what I realized. Most people focus on writing a blog post every week or every day or a podcast every day or every week because they're a commoditized entity that is trying to be louder than everybody else. But if you have the right messaging, the right stories, you can use technology, psychology, and strategy to get your ideal clients to chase you, and you can still be contagious with your ideal demographic. I mean, my business now gets in front of so many more people people than all of my organizations did before. And it's a lot of ways automated and it leverages the power of podcasts, you know, like the one we're on right now, that share my stories and my messaging, my social media, all the work that I put out there to drive my ideal clients to really in a lot of ways chase me. But if I hadn't have started in the networking room, getting my stories clear, making sure my message resonated, speaking about my passion and mission so that it was well-practiced so that when I get on this, you know, podcast, I'm not, you know, all elbows and knees and fumbling my way through it, right? It wouldn't have mattered if I got on this podcast. No one would have wanted to come and find out more about me afterwards. So it's about perfecting what you do in the room so that you really don't have to. And also, some of the connections you'll meet in the room are the ones that will introduce you to other people. And that's key. It's not just prospects that are in the room. It's momentum partners, or what I call momentum partners.

I like that term.

—that will introduce you to other people. Right? That's the key. You know, Judy Robinette is a wonderful friend of mine. And you know, her and I, we introduce each other to podcast hosts all the time so that we can all get on more shows. You know, anytime she's got something that she feels, not because she gets something from me, she just believes in what I do and I in her. We don't have a formal one-for-one relationship because that's the wrong mindset to go in with. I talk about, you know, balance sheet mentality that you shouldn't have We just both believe in what each other's missions are and try to promote each other. And because of that, we're momentum partners for each other. But then we also have— in networking rooms, you'll meet people like Champions, people that are hugely credible, that give credibility to your work because they endorse your books, because they write testimonials for you, because they share your information on podcasts and things like that. Now, those are the real people in the room that are going to get you out of the networking room. Because if you're just there trying to get prospects every time, then yes, that will work and eventually you'll move it online, but you'll need digital advertising to keep that roller coaster going. But if you make enough partners, momentum partners and champions, or if you meet enough and you turn them into great momentum partners and champions, that gets you out of the hamster wheel because those people put you on podcasts to get your message out in front of so many other people. They get you on TV. They write about what you do in articles in major magazines and online websites. That takes you from the day-to-day hustle to keep things going to you actually become the authority. I mean, that's what got me to all these global guru lists and things like that. It was the Momentum Partners and the Champions. The customers and the success I got for my customers was just made it easier for people to go after they came to my website, go, wow, I really can trust this person.

So unfortunately, we're out of time. I got one last question though, is as an introvert doing lots of podcasts and stuff, it becomes an energy drain. So what's your energy recharger? What are you doing right after this?

So I literally, I do a 30-minute, just I'll sit there and watch Netflix or something like that, right? At the, like this shirt will literally get changed into a hoodie and I'll just sit in a dark room and literally just watch Netflix for 30 minutes and recharge. I do a live stream with all my online academy students in about an hour and a half from today. And you know, but all I need is about 30 minutes. I can do a big keynote and go straight into another one. That's fine. Fine. Or if there's a break, I ask for at least a 30-minute break so I can recharge and then another 30 minutes so I can get to the next presentation. So smart. All I need is 30 minutes. If you know how to control your energy, everything shifts. Like, you know, people ask me at speaking events, "Oh, do you want to meet up with us for dinner the night before the presentation?" And I know that if I do that, the chance, you know, my energy levels will be slightly depleted if I've got a morning presentation. So I'll say, "Hey, that sounds like a great idea. "but you've got a lot of things to worry about for the conference. You don't need to worry about me as well. How about we meet the night of the conference?" So smart to manage that. If you know your energy levels and you, I mean, tell your team members, tell your family. My family know I'm introverted. They let me disappear for an hour at Christmas to recharge. My staff know that I'm introverted. So they protect me before any presentation from anything I absolutely don't need to know so I can stay mentally focused and not worry about things. If your team know, if you know, you can manage it accordingly. And it's not something to be ashamed of. It doesn't mean you're a kid, you know, like I was, a kid with horrible acne that's, you know, doesn't want to talk to anyone. It just means you don't have the strategies. And once you have those, it's really just an energy thing. As soon as you know that, you can manage it correctly.

Matthew Pollard, the author of The Introvert's Edge and the brand new book, The Introvert's Edge to Networking. Thank you so much for joining me today. It was my absolute pleasure.

Thanks for having me on.