32: Gaining Wisdom with Dr. Aria Campbell-Danesh

Welcome to my podcast called you'd Must Be out of youf Mind. My name is Dr. Don Wood. Everyone has experienced some trauma at times during their life. These traumatic events and experiences create a significant impact on how your mind works on a day to day basis. At the same time creates long term effects on your emotional and physical health. It will interfere with your ability to stay present and in the moment. After years of research, I used my knowledge of neuroscience to create what I call a memory reset. This memory reset reduces and eliminates the impact of the trauma and allows you to experience peace and clarity. My podcast will share many stories of people experiencing similar symptoms to you and how their lives have been positively impacted.

By our TIP program.

I can't wait to share with you how the impossible is possible and why you must be out of your mind. And there it is.

Well, welcome to another edition of you Must be out of your Mind. And as you know, we always bring on great guests who have so much in common to share with us. And I can't wait to introduce Dr. Aria. He is, he's a clinical psychologist working on performance. We have so much in common. We're going to get right into this right away because I know he's got a lot to share with you that you're going to be fascinated. So, Dr. Arya, welcome to you must be out of your mind.

Thank you, Don. It's a pleasure to be here.

Well, I was excited, especially reading all the stuff that you do. So can you give just a quick little background of what you're doing and stuff like that?

I'm a clinical psychologist and I specialize in high performance and resilience. I tend to work with individuals who are often doing very well in their career, but they could be stuck or struggling in another aspect of their lives. That may be that their relationships are suffering because they focus so much on work, or they've lost intimacy with their partner and they become like close companions rather than the lovers that they were before. Or they've woken up one day and whilst on the external level it appears that they are a success in inverted commas, there's that gnawing sense of a void or something missing and the beginning to question, what is this life about? Is it just about the money that I'm bringing in or is there something more to it?

Excellent. Well, one of the things, as you can tell from the name of our organization, the Inspired Performance Institute. And really what I developed the program that I developed because of trauma. So my wife and my daughter had a lot of trauma. My Wife in particular had a lot of trauma as a child growing up. And so I started. My daughter got two autoimmune disorders, Crohn's and idiopathic pulmonary hemosiderosis, and seemed to be no answers for it. Everything was all about living, managing and coping with it. And I had zero trauma. So it was really amazing. I grew up in this idyllic childhood, amazing parents. So I just sort of got through life without really getting bumped very much. And I played hockey, I'm from Canada, so hockey players can fight, sort of like rugby players. Right. So football players there. So I never really had any bullying or anything like that. So what I discovered in trying to find answers for my wife and daughter is that trauma was a major factor in a lot of these autoimmune disorders. And what I found again is how are they treating that? Live, manage and cope with it. And then they were treating trauma the same way. Everything was about, well, if you have anxiety, we'll put you on anti anxiety meds, we'll teach you how to live with anxiety. Right. And I was saying, why can't we fix it? So I came in with a very different approach and said that unresolved trauma creates inflammation in the body. Inflammation compromises the immune system and the neurotransmitters and so people are going to get sicker and then feel bad. So what I found is that when we can resolve the trauma, we actually increase performance. So we focus more on the performance side than the trauma side because nobody wants to go for trauma therapy.

Right.

But people like going for performance.

So have you found a lot of experience with that?

I have. At some point in our lives, we will experience suffering and difficulty and hardship.

And it can't be avoided. We'll all face unexpected and unwanted events in life. It could be a physical health diagnosis, a mental health. It could be that our relationship ends when we didn't want to, or our partner is unfaithful, or we are struggling to conceive, or we become pregnant when we didn't expect to, or our children become sick or. And all of us can then carry a wound. Now, until we become aware of the ways in which life and its circumstances has impacted us, as Carl Jung said, until we make what is unconscious, conscious, it will direct your life and we will call it fate. So the path that I embark on people, the path which I embark with people is, is to help them understand.

Not only their past, but how that's impacted them in the present moment and to better understand their own psychology so that they can then.

Move with a greater understanding, but also have the tactics and tools to find greater peace and joy and fulfillment in their lives.

Yeah. And what I found, like, from my wife's perspective, she grew up with a very violent, angry father. So she was just living in fear from her childhood on. And so when I met her, I didn't notice what that was. At first it was unusual. I was like, this is odd. There's some stress going on in this house. There's some tension because I hadn't experienced that even with my friends. Nobody talked about the abuse or nobody talked about the traumas. So I thought everybody lived in my world. And it wasn't. I really met her when I was 18 that I realized, wow, this is different. And so she was high functioning. She didn't get into drugs or alcohol. She was just living with fear. And I thought, well, okay, when we get married, she's going to be living in my world now, which is very calm and peaceful. So I figured that would all settle down. And it didn't. And there was nothing I could do to fix it. Because no matter how calm I tried to stay, how I tried to choose my words, I could still activate her nervous system very, very easily. And what I found is it even though she was grateful, she wasn't truly enjoying life. And we had success, we had beautiful children, a beautiful home, a good business, and yet I kept feeling like she wasn't at that level of, wow, this is great. And so I kept thinking, I'm doing something wrong. I need to maybe make more money, maybe a bigger house, whatever it was, but it was coming from her trauma completely.

And our external world, our external world is a reflection of our internal reality. So if we're still carrying anger or hurt or resentment or any sort of trauma, that then becomes reflected in our experience of the world. And so no matter what someone else says or does, whether it's their intention or not, it can inadvertently trigger what is already within them. And an analogy could be, it doesn't matter what you squeeze an orange with. The same thing will come out whether you squeeze it with your hand or hit it with a hammer or put it in a vice. You squeeze an orange, orange juice comes out. If there is anger or hurt or despair within us, that is what is going to come forward. And so part of this path is beginning to have compassion for ourselves and understand that it's not our fault that this is arising, but it is our responsibility as to how we manage it.

Right. So what's the kind of common things that you're seeing. Like, what do you notice in your practice when you're working with people?

It's often individuals who are brilliant at what they do. They're very intelligent, they're creative, they've got high expectations, they can be perfectionists, and they've often heavily invested in their career. And it's paid off to dividends in many ways. But it can come at a cost, because when we place anything at our center, whether it is our work or whether it's another person, we become lost because we're no longer moving from a place of truth for us. And so it can manifest in different ways. It could be, as I was saying with relationships, and there might be that sense of disconnection. It could be just feeling frustrations and anger, and they find that suddenly they're just blurting out and making attacks that they really don't want to. It could be a deeper sense of anxiety or. Or despair or just that sense that there's something more right now. This isn't. This isn't what I thought it would bring. And so the external can vary from person to person, but at the core, it's about us going back to a place of truth. For you. For you, dawn, what is your life about? Who are you and what you want it to stand for? And what does it mean for you to live in line with who you are?

Yeah, no, that's really well said. Um. One of the things that I found, and especially was true with my wife and I didn't understand at the time until I really started doing the research. And the research was really because of trying to figure out how to help our daughter. Because the second autoimmune, the idiopathic pulmonary hemocentrosis, could be a death sentence because she just started filling up with blood in her lungs. And so. And her Crohn's, they ended up taking out 24 inches of her intestines over and over, over, just cutting out more and more pieces. And so. But one of the things that I found with my wife from the research is that she was highly sensitive to sound. So when I would say something like, no, I don't like that, she could tear up and start to cry and say, why are you upset with me? And I would go, I'm not upset at all. What made you think I'm upset? She said, well, the way you said it, you're getting upset. And I would like to. Well, no, I'm not. But if there was a slight little tension change, I mean, if you paid me to hear the two recordings of me with and without that change, I could never have heard it. But she heard it like I was yelling. And so it could mean I was just a little tired at the end of the day, you know, so. Or I was a little frustrated on my drive home. I'm not angry at her at all with her, but she was so sensitive to that sound because it was her way to protect herself as a child. If she could pick up and recognize when dad was starting to get frustrated, right? That's the time to get out of the house or get out of the room or whatever you needed to do. And that's what I have found in some studies that I saw that a lot of people who have trauma are highly sensitive to sound. So you can see you work probably with a lot of couples too, right? And you just see how they can break apart, right? And both of them, their attention is to love each other, but their communication breaks down.

Yeah, well, it's a beautiful analogy. We all pick up sensitivities as we pass through life. And a sensitivity isn't a weakness. It's simply the capacity to be hurt, which is vulnerability, which is one of our greatest strengths. And.

Part of it is understanding what our sensitivities are. It's the example of.

Let'S just say, was one of my clients, his wife said, could you come home at 5:45 tonight? Now what he heard was, you're not coming home early enough, you're not being a good enough husband, and you're failing as a father because that is a sensitivity or a fear that he has about himself.

Right?

But if we're aware of that, we'll then respond from the place of hurt and say, why do you ask me this? Do you know that I have to work until 6:30? What's wrong with you? Can't you give me a break? And then of course the other person feels hurt and says.

Why can't you be more understanding? Why can't you listen to me? And it very quickly can escalate into an argument. Now, with sensitivities, with insecurities, the most powerful way, the reason that they can become a strength is if we share them and we share the story that our mind is telling us. You know, I'd love, I'd love to go home at 5:45, but unfortunately I just can't. And honestly, whenever I think about it, it makes me feel like I'm failing you as a husband or failing our kids as a father, and I'm sorry. And suddenly we're Opening conversations. Suddenly we're deepening understanding. Suddenly we're creating connection as opposed to warring or battling with the person that we love the most.

Yeah. And it's difficult for people to do that if they've got a lot of hurt. Right. So without getting some help and being able to learn that kind of language and communication. But you could see how marriages can fall apart.

Right.

Even though both people are good people, they're just coming from that place of pain.

Right.

And they filter different. So for me, I filtered completely different. I didn't hear things the way she heard. And so that was one of the fortunate things, though, for our relationship, because I kept thinking, I've got to change and do something different for her. And I kept trying to figure it out, but it was even more than that. It was getting to the root of the cause, which was that trauma. And so when I would say something with that little tone change, her mind was basically saying, what do I know about men who start to get angry? And a whole bunch of trauma data started flooding in and there's where she would get overwhelmed and her whole system would go into a flight response, and she couldn't stop that. So what I used to say is when she would say, you're angry with me, and I'd say, I know I'm not. We were both right. There was no right or wrong.

Yes. Right.

And so getting understanding is the key.

Yeah. Most of us haven't been taught how the mind works. Exactly. We haven't been taught how the mind works. And we haven't learned that the mind has a mind of its own, that it will come up with assessments and judgments and interpretations and assumptions and predictions about the world, about reality. And that mind has been shaped by its experiences, by our families growing up, by our childhood and teenage experiences, by what happens to us as adults. And we come to wear a filter. And this filter is the perception through which we see reality. But until we're aware of the filter, it will actually skew what we're seeing. We won't have clarity of vision. And without clarity of vision, we can't have an accuracy of response. A lot of the inner work is about understanding the ways in which our own experiences have created a filter. And as much as possible, as far as we can, to see reality as it is, rather than the way that reality is perceived by the mind.

Are you tired of dealing with stress, anxiety, panic attacks, depression, even feeling broken? Have traumatic events and experiences in your life created post traumatic stress for you? Perhaps you're an athlete, an Executive trying to reach that next level of performance. Well, there's nothing wrong with you and there's nothing wrong with your mind. Your mind is dealing with some glitches and error messages as a result of these traumatic events or disturbing events earlier in your life. It's interfering with your ability to stay present because the memory keeps on looping, activating your nervous system. I've helped thousands of people deal with anxiety, panic attacks, depression, feeling that sense of brokenness. We can clear that in as little as four hours. Check out our website, inspiredperformanceinstitute.com and check out some of the stories and testimonials. Some of these may relate to what you've experienced in your life and we look forward to helping you reach your next level of performance.

And there it is.

We speak the same language because I call that atmospheric conditions. What were your atmospheric conditions growing up? For my wife, who was very dark and stormy, it didn't mean she's a bad person or she has anger. But if you grew up in a city that just rained and was cloudy and stormy all the time, you're going to see the world that way. Yeah. Because she filters through those experiences, especially as a child. So I always talk about that. If you could understand the atmospheric conditions of the other person, you will now understand why they behave the way they behave. How could they be any different? Right. So we don't need to judge them, we just need to understand them completely.

Often we get caught up in judgment. Why are you this way or you shouldn't be this way? The truth is, if any individual, if you were born with the mind, the brain, the anatomy and physiology of that person's brain and had identical experiences, who's to say you would think or act any differently? Whenever we begin this approach, there's so much more compassion. It's actually, it's a beautiful journey we can embark on to then truly understand our partner. How many of us fall into that trap of even in a relationship, coming home and talking about the mundane and the everyday? Could there be a space on a date to actually find out more about that person's upbringing or experiences or views or opinions and where they came from, simply from a place of curiosity and understanding? I think that's where the growth is then for richer and deeper connections.

Yeah. And I think that's what I do in the program that I do as well. I do a four hour session with them and the first couple of hours is all education and science about how their minds work. And I share the stories of my Wife and my daughter. And I get all the time I'm hearing, oh my gosh, I'm your wife, or you know, that's my husband. That's exactly how he was. And if they can get to that is the reason they're doing what they're doing is they couldn't be any different. And I talk about my childhood with this amazing. My parents never raised their voice, never argued, so my nervous system stayed regulated. And if I got, every once in a while, as soon as I came home, I came back to this world of safety. So I felt safe again. And that's one of the things I always talk when people say, well, what's the best advice you can give to parents? And I always say, make your home safe. So if children feel safe, it'll change the trajectory of their life because they can see things differently. And I had the luxury of that. Yeah. So I've never had a drink in my life, never touched a drug in my life. I was never interested in it anyway. But I never had any pain. And so when people come in with addiction with me, what I say is, if I had led your life the way you led your life, how could I have not been an addict? It would have been almost impossible not to do that. So it's having that compassion, like you said, and understanding that people are the way they are because of the way they've experienced life.

And we'll all have our own.

Challenges and issues and inner works to do. Even if you've had an idyllic upbringing, everything has a two edged sword. The Buddha was brought up in a protected world where there was no ill health and no sickness and no death. And so by only seeing the pure side of life, it actually will then will bring challenges to understand hardship or in terms of whenever we experience conflict or if we are in, we marry into a family that's a bit more abrasive and a little bit more attacking or frenetic. And so really the, what we have to work through is less important. The fact that we're working through it is what's important.

Yes.

Yep. No, I like what you just said is really important too. Because you're right is I grew up in this world. There was really no controversy, but the advantage, I think that helped me a little bit so to navigate that was playing sports and hockey. So that created my battles. But it was controlled. Right. You could get into a fight in a hockey game and it's over. It's not something that you're going to have the next day and Every day. Right. And so I learned to protect myself at the same time. So it was a perfect kind of a balance. But you're right. And then when my wife comes in and I see what she's gone through, I don't like that tension. And so when, you know, my daughter starts going through her stuff, and I'm like, I can't just fix this. Why can't I? Why can't I fix it? And so that led me to, like I said, research. The good news is, is her Crohn's is gone and her hemosiderosis is gone once we resolved the trauma, because I believe it was coming from. Right. The inflammation caused by the trauma loop that kept running. And that's. And it shows that we. We see the physical changes that show up if that trauma is constantly running.

Yeah.

And so I see it all the time. Yeah.

Greater understanding can come from contextualizing a problem or the person with whom we're having a problem. There's a cognitive bias known as the actor observer effect. If, say, I'm running late for a meeting, I will often contextualize why that could be the case. The traffic was bad. I had to deal with an unexpected.

Issue at home. And so then I will place more emphasis on the surroundings. If you were late for a meeting, my mind or anyone's mind is much more likely to actually attribute that dispositionally. Oh, Don doesn't care. Don doesn't respect me. Don is lazy. Whatever it could be.

Yep.

Just a hypothetical example. I don't think any of these things. Don. Justina, I'm a. Oh, my gosh.

Do you have an appointment?

And so part of it is taking a step back and seeing the bigger picture at hand and becoming aware of when the mind begins to demonize the other person or see them as the enemy and begins to place fault or blame in them as a person, as opposed to truly understanding greater context or at least being willing to explore greater context.

Yeah. No, I love that. Now, I know you work with a lot of celebrities, high profile people, Right. So what is that world like? Because everybody looks at those kinds of people and they say, oh, I wish I flew in private jets and I had all that money and these homes in Italy and all these great things going on, but they're dealing with the same kinds of issues, right?

Absolutely. Nobody can escape the vicissitudes of life. And something that I found is actually the more that we can progress in our careers, which might bring greater money or status or prestige, that can often act as a magnifying. Glass. Whatever issues were there just become bigger. And so often people can be embarking on a career and it's really at the stages where.

Their work is flourishing that they're experiencing some of the greatest challenges, some of the greatest personal and internal challenges because they didn't see these things before or they've become blown up, or they've become exacerbated. And none of us can avoid suffering and none of us can avoid the work. Everything in life, it requires, it requires. Worker relationships require effort and consciousness. Staying in good health requires awareness and consistency. And continually growing and evolving as a person involves inner work. Understanding where it is that healing is required, or understanding where greater compassion is required. And just taking a little step each day.

So what's your typical kind of a process? Like what would you take? Somebody comes to you, right, who are dealing with some of these issues. What's the structure look like of how you would work with them?

The first step is to seek to understand rather than to solve. Most people, whenever they have an issue at hand, they simply want to solve it, they want to fix it. And it's approach that they might take to their own lives or to others, someone comes to them. You have that example with a husband and wife and potentially the wife might be talking about a problem and the man tries to fix it and then.

His wife doesn't feel understood or seen or valued. She simply wants people to share. So first of all, it's creating a space where the person can share and we can understand. The more that I understand your psychology and the way that your mind thinks and operates, the more that I can reflect that back to you so that you can have greater understanding too. And it's through understanding that a person then makes an inner shift or change, they suddenly have an insight. Gosh, I didn't realize that's what I did. And that's connected to this. And through that, coming from the unconscious into the conscious, from the darkness into the light, it begins to shift and change. Because now there's greater awareness. And with awareness we have a choice. And it's in that choice that lies our freedom. And so I'd say it's a process that starts with awareness, moves to understanding and that creates an insight and then the internal changes just naturally happen.

Yeah, I like that. I learned a lot on with one particular. I worked with some parents who had lost their child. Their nine year old child had been abducted and murdered. And I sat through the trial with them. The person was caught and he was on trial. And I sat with Them. And then after the trial was. The day was over in court, they would go back to their hotel. And this was really profound for me. And one night I said to him, I said, listen, let me take you out to dinner, right. Rather than just go back to your hotel, let's just go and relax and try to get out and get away from all of this. And the father said this to me. He goes, there's nothing you could do or nothing you could say right now to make us feel better, but thank you for being here.

Yeah, completely.

That's all they wanted somebody to listen and care. Right. And I couldn't fix it. Right. They just wanted me to be there.

Yes, completely. Sometimes.

There is nothing that we can do, like you're saying. And actually.

Just being present is the biggest gift that we can give someone, for them to be seen and.

Held.

Even emotionally and.

Acknowledged. And we're all. We're all connected by our humanity and also by our suffering. You know, we will go through deep heartache and pain. And having a space in which someone can just sit with you and say, I'm here, can be transformative in itself.

And that's not easy to do. Right. Because what you had said, when I was listening to what you said, it was. That's what reminded me of that story when you say a husband sometimes wants to fix, the wife starts telling about the problem and he goes right to. Well, here's a solution. And that's not what she was looking for. She just wanted him to listen to what she was saying. And I remember. I don't know if you know him. He's a coach of college football coach here in the United States called Lou Holtz. I don't know if you've heard of him. Right. I remember him saying, hearing a quote from him and said, I never learned anything while I was talking.

Yes. So simple and so true.

Yeah.

Emotions are not a problem to be solved. There are reality to be experienced. The biggest trap that most of us and say, the biggest trap that most of us fall into is, is that we try and solve the problem. We try and solve the emotion. We try and get rid of it. We're experiencing it and we don't like it because it's not pleasant. It's not pleasant to experience deep sadness or regret or pain. And so the mind will try and change. It will say, I shouldn't be here, or, you shouldn't be here. You should be here. You should be happier and grateful and joyful. But by trying to meddle with the emotion and Interfere with it. We actually block it within us. We don't allow it to pass.

Or another approach we take is that we try and avoid the emotion. I don't like this feeling, so I'm just going to. You know, in Britain we call it putting on, on a stiff upper lip and just ignore it, push it to the side, bury it deep down inside us. But again, we block it. It doesn't allow it to pass through us. So in the same way that we can create space for another person, part of the path is creating space for our own emotions.

Not interfering, not trying to change them, not trying to.

Transform them, but simply acknowledging them and respecting them and honoring them. Seeing that, you know, in this moment, in that moment of that father, that mother, there's deep sadness and there is nothing that can change that in and of itself. But when we create space for it and we see that this is an emotional experience I'm having, but it's not all of who I am. I'm greater than that. I'm. I'm the sky and the emotion is the cloud. And right now it's a stormy, gray, heavy cloud, but it's not who I am. I'm this greatest guy. And it will pass. And so whenever we don't try and change it, it will pass on its own accord. And it may take a day, it may take a year, but as long as we can keep on creating space for it, we will move through it.

And that's why so many get stuck on drugs or painkillers, because they're trying to knock the pain. Right. So you can see why that happens. They instantly, they want that instant relief. I don't want to feel pain. So they go to a way to stop the pain. So, so people say why did, why would somebody use drugs and alcohol Right. When they know the consequences? And I said, because it works.

It'S incredibly effective. And, and arguably they will not find.

Anything else that will be as immediate and as powerful. Yeah, but we've looked at it comes at a cost because it's a sedative, but it's going to wear off. So unless we're prepared to continually take either that pharmacological agent or that medication or whatever, or that drug or whatever it may be, that in itself is going to have a knock on effect. And whenever we become numb to our emotions, we also disconnect from ourselves. And one of the most painful parts is whenever we lose who we are or feeling that we've become so far removed from who we know that we are. And so that in itself can. Can create even more suffering than the initial problem did. Yeah.

And that's why I always talk when I work with people who are in addiction, what I say to them. This says nothing about your character or your willpower or your morals or your ethics. Right. It's basically your.

Your.

Your brain has picked up a code, and the code is to turn off the pain. So every time, you know, you feel the pain, you repeated something. So your mind goes right to it. Right. And it solves the problem, but it creates consequences. The issue is, is that the survival part of our brain, the subconscious part of our brain, is always present. So when does it want pain to stop?

Now.

So the drugs and alcohol solved the problem according to the subconscious. Right. It sees everything as now. So that's why you end up continuing to build a code up, because your mind is automatically defaulting. Right. To the solution. You didn't have another solution. You didn't have another resource.

Yeah.

And so I. I read an article which I thought was fascinating. It said a lot about how powerful the message of pain is. It was a story written by a German sniper during World War II. And he said when we fought against the Russians, he said the Russians didn't have very many weapons, but they had a lot of people. So their strategy was to charge at the German lines and try to overwhelm them with numbers, get into the bunkers and overtake them. He says, so his job as a sniper, right, was to shoot and kill them. And he says, but another wave would come. And another wave would come. And he says, and then I figured out the best way to stop them. He says, I didn't kill them. I shot them in the stomach, which is the most painful place to be shot. So now all their comrades are lying on the ground screaming in pain. That was a bigger deterrent.

Painful. Yeah. Painful experiences are often why we change. And the uncomfortable experiences that we grow.

Yep. And as we've covered, there's no way that we can ever avoid painful experiences. They're going to happen at some point, even if we manage to avoid it during a childhood, at some point, you know, what you've gone through with your wife, with your daughter, I imagine, would have been immensely painful at times. And Philosopher coming. The storm is coming. The question is.

And the. The quest is to continually return to center and to begin to build the skills to connect to that place of ham within us. Because deep within us there is our true self, which is a field of consciousness, and that's that nature is calmness. And peace and serenity. And the emotions are a little bit like the waves on the top of an ocean and at the very bottom of the seabed, it's completely still. The more that we can begin to connect to that, even whenever the emotions are turbulent, there's that greater sense of knowing that.

There'S an ease with which we accept what life is bringing us. And sometimes life brings us the worst. And that's incredibly painful. I used to work in oncology, pediatrics, as a psychologist and a palliative care. And I'd be working with either children with cancer or children reaching the end of their lives and their parents. To be told that your child is going to pass and you have three months left is one of the most horrific things you can be told.

Yeah.

And how would you move through that? Where over the next three months, you're not destroyed by the despair and the fear and the sadness, but you're there for your child. And after that child does pass, how can you continue for your two other children who are still here and who still need love and still need attention and still need to be seen and appreciated and held?

What's remarkable is that there is.

That deep stillness which is indestructible. It's actually, it's. It's so incredibly powerful that when we connect to that, we can not only go through some of the worst of the mind could imagine, but we can also grow through it and grow with even more love and compassion and understanding and then be giving from that place of love in a way that we never thought was possible.

Well, I can definitely see why you're so successful. Right. You say a lot of the things that I talk about as well, is the key is to get to your center. Right. That's your essence, your light. That's who you always have been. My wife got bumped off quite a bit from her center, But I could see her center When I met her and saw her right away, I could. I knew that I didn't know what I was seeing, but I sensed it. She had trouble seeing it because of the hurt. Right. But that's always who she was. And she always had that kindness and love and. And so I saw it, but it was difficult for her. So what I see what you're doing as well. Same kind of thing, helping people find that center which would bring their. Their. Their peace.

So beautiful gift for you to bring to your wife. And I'm sure she brings you many gifts. And sometimes it's about being a mirror so that people can see.

Where they might be moving in a direction that's away from who they are and coming back to center and when we can support others and we can be nurturing and nourishing and supporting force in their own psychological and emotional and spiritual journey. I'd say that's love. That's true love. So I'm very happy for you, dawn, and the love you have with your.

Well, I appreciate that. And like I said, it's the key for my wife being able to heal was to get to understanding that what happened to her happened any other way, based on the way her atmospheric conditions were set up by her father's atmospheric conditions that created his anger and fear. So all she needed to do was get understanding and that healed her.

Yes. And that was pretty powerful. All peace comes through understanding.

Yep. Well, perfect way to end.

So I really appreciate. Are you coming on and sharing your wisdom? Is there anything that you'd like to share or anything for audience to listen to if they want to find out more about what you do or.

Well, I don't know if you can add the. The link, but feel free to join me on Instagram or check out my website if you can add that on and people can continue the conversation there.

Absolutely. So, again, thank you so much for your time and expertise and for everybody listening to this. You've now completed another episode of you must be out of your mind. And there it is.