103 - The Power of Listening: Fostering Inclusive Communication with hearX Group's Seline van der Wat

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Delene Vanderwaat, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the COO of two companies, actually related companies. One is Lexie Hearing, found at LexieHearing.com, and the other is HearX. Found at hirox.com. Welcome to Listening with Leaders.

Thank you so much for having me, Doug. I've been looking forward to this all week.

You have? Oh, thank you. You have, you know, we did an Authority Magazine interview with you, and you have one of the most interesting backgrounds that I've seen in a long time. You grew up in a, I don't know if I would call it a village, but according to you, it's a very remote place in South Africa. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your backstory?

Absolutely. Uh, thanks so much for asking that question, because I think understanding the context of where someone comes from makes their story colorful and gives context to who somebody is. I grew up in a really small town in the northwest of South Africa called Mafeking. There is not much there. So my childhood consisted of baking cookies for my neighbors and taking every single extramural activity I could at school. My mom was very serious about like a multi-dimensional approach to education. So we were thrown into everything from music to cooking, to extra mathematics classes, to working for our family business from the age of 8. So we had a really fun upbringing in a small town, and it really taught me the value of both hard work and the importance of community.

And then you got into engineering. How did that happen? That's unusual. I would think that for a South African young woman, going into engineering is an unusual I would just guess that.

Yeah, I think it's becoming more common now, thank goodness, because women in STEM is super important. But I mean, when my mother was choosing what to study, she had a choice between 3 degrees or fields she could go into, right? Teaching, nursing, and librarian. So having the opportunity to choose what I wanted to study after the change in regime in South Africa was an absolute blessing. To me. And after spending a lot of time working in my father's engineering company and getting exposed to different aspects of the field, I somehow, most by chance, ended up studying engineering and choosing to specialize in industrial and systems engineering, which is essentially a really incredible degree that mixes electronic and computer engineering with a lot of business strategy and optimization and scalability courses. So that's how I ended up choosing what to study, and I absolutely fell in love with it after the 4-year degree and couldn't wait to get my hands dirty once I started working.

Well, how do you, how do you end up in the, in the hearing aid business?

I've, I've chosen to be very intentional about how I build my career. So to date, I've worked in industries that I believe have some form of a social impact or impact on the world at large. So I focused on renewable energy energy when I first entered the working world. I learned a lot of my hard skills there. It was a great combination of being out in the field and then obviously changing legislation and working with governments to bring about change in terms of the importance of renewable energy, especially in a place like Southern Africa. I then moved into education tech. Coming from my background and understanding how important my mother is to me and how important education was to her, I wanted to use the skills that I had learned as an engineer to build out systems and technologies that could help us further access to education. And then I ended up in hearing, most by chance, because my CEO, who's still my CEO at the time, uh, his mother was working at this education tech company that I had been working at. And when he heard I was working there, he sent her into my office while my boss was standing there with a Post-it and said to me, my son wants to know why you aren't working for him. Um, very awkwardly retracted myself from that conversation because my boss was in the room, but went to meet Nick, our CEO, for lunch one day, and he just showed me the technology that they were developing and explained the impact of what HearEx and Lexie would be able to achieve in the long run. And that is one of the reasons why I chose to be an engineer, and one of the things I wanted to use my skills to do was to help not just build technology and help people understand whether or not they have hearing loss or sell hearing aids— that's not really what we do— but rather to help humans build connection to their families, to their communities, to enable them to learn, study, work, grow. Um, and that seemed like a good thing to dedicate 8 hours, let's say 15 hours of my day to.

Tell us a little bit more about the companies. Yeah, sure.

So Heurex Group was founded back in 2016 with the intent of helping build technologies that would aid in the detection and diagnosis of hearing loss. Unfortunately, it's become a saying in, in the hearing health, or in the health world actually, that hearing loss is a silent epidemic. So many people don't even know that they have it, and the prevalence rates are shocking once people actually get tested. But the technology that would help detect and diagnose hearing loss was really expensive and required the use or the presence of a healthcare practitioner in the room in order to conduct those tests. So our initial technologies were developed to help detect and diagnose without the presence of an audiologist or a healthcare practitioner. And at that time, we thought that was a just cause and it was good enough. But the more we worked in that field, the more we realized once we had detected and diagnosed people, we were sending them into a healthcare system that was overburdened and where they needed to pay thousands of dollars for a hearing aid. And after trying to change the industry from within, we realized the only way we're going to be able to do this is to totally disrupt how people are selling and distributing and servicing, supporting hearing aids. So we spun up Lexie Hearing about 3 years ago now in preparation for the OTC regulations on hearing aids that were released by the FDA last year in October. And essentially what it allows us to do is to do remote testing, fitting, and support of hearing aids, but at 80% less cost than traditional methods with the same health outcomes.

And how has it been received in the marketplace?

You know, it's been absolutely rewarding for me, especially if you understand why I do what I do, to see how the consumers are receiving the product, right? It's scary to launch anything new. You never know if anyone's going to buy the product first, and secondly, if they're going to actually get use and enjoyment out of the product. And what we have seen is the customers that purchase Lexie, 95% of them are wearing hearing aids for the first time after purchasing Lexie. And our net promoter scores and customer satisfaction outperform the players in the market, not only in the OTC and DTC space, but also in the traditional market. And I think it's because we took a really consumer-centric approach to how we designed and developed the products and how we support our customers through that journey. So white glove, 5-star customer service to make sure that they are supported every step of the way. So, so far so good, and we're really excited to be the leader in the OTC hearing space at the moment.

Wow, timing is everything, huh? That's good. So tell me, what, what gets you really excited to get up in the morning and get going?

What wakes me up in the morning is the possibility to continue changing the world and not in the way millennials mean it because I am outside of that bracket. I'm happily not a millennial, but I think what's important to me is to use the skills that I have been taught by the many people who have mentored me and taught me along the way to generate some form of good with the hours of work that I put in in a day. Second to that is my team. Really motivate me to get up and to keep going. We recently got a beautiful recognition from Time Magazine. We're listed on the Time 100 Most Influential Companies in the World list, which is the first time anyone in the hearing aid industry has been on the list. And for an industry that is almost a year old now, it was quite a big, a big shift and a really great acknowledgement. And at this event, what I said to the team was what I really admire about them is their resilience. Resilience. Like so many times over the last 7 years, especially over the last 3 with Lexie Hearing, we have heard no 8 times more than we've heard the word yes. And when it gets tough, or when we get tired, or when we're low, they have resilience to fill in when mine is empty. And I hope that they know that I will do the same for them. So knowing that I wake up in the morning and I have a team of highly skilled, highly invested individuals standing by my side is honestly very motivating to me. Wow.

You know, I, I agree with you that, um, the meaning of life is service to others. Yeah. So many people work for a paycheck and don't have meaning in their lives, and they're— and they take, you know, unfortunately that misery leads them to paths that are probably not healthy or good for them. So you're blessed to be able to do what you're doing and to feel like you're really serving people and making a difference in the world. There are very few people that work at your level that get to do that. So I know that because I, I think, you know, I was a trial lawyer for 22 years and then left the practice of law to become a peacemaker. And my life project is training murderers how to be peacemakers in maximum security prisons. And I learned, I learned in that, that's what really gave me meaning in life, where I take these people who are basically thrown away from society and turn them into powerful peacemakers to stop prison violence. In prisons all over the world.

Um, I think that's incredible. I, I read about your project online and I found it so inspiring. And I think a lot of times when people evaluate what they want to do with their lives and where they find value, they feel like you need to choose between a career and doing good. And I think it is rare, but I think it is exactly what you called it, a blessing, when those two things collide and when you're able to apply your skills like you do with the convicted murderers, teaching them what you know from your career to bring about good. Or like me, where I get to apply my engineering skills in a way that builds a sustainable and well-operated business so that we can keep the costs down and get people more access to hearing aids. And I think if people spent a little bit more time evaluating how they operate their businesses and what they choose to dedicate their lives to, they might just find more meaning than at first glance.

I agree, and I think they would find a lot more happiness too. Yes, you know, when you're serving other people and you're, you're making a difference in the world, I mean, that, that is truly fulfilling, as you know. It makes a big difference. So what is it, what is it that, what is it that's unique about you that you bring, that bring to the table that, that is different than anybody else?

This question always makes me so uncomfortable because I really do think we're the sum of parts of a team. But I think if I had to think about which traits I have or the skills that I bring to the table, I think I've always described my role as being the person that creates order out of chaos, right? I think I have a very strong mind. I'm very strong-willed. So when things get tough or when there's a crisis, I think I'm quite good at being able to break down everything to its core issues, identify the pattern in the randomness, and make really great, fast decisions that move us forward instead of hamstringing us or stopping us from making any form of changes or decisions. And then I've been known on our board and in our management meetings to be the one that listens and observes. What I've learned over time is you don't need to listen to only the words coming out of people's mouths, but watch exactly how they move, why they move that way, how they react, and how the people around them react, and how the energy in the room changes— without being too creepy, but yes, how the energy in the room changes— and then being able to pull together a robust pattern of behavior that helps you work with people moving forward and helps you better advise your board or your fellow EXCO members on true intent versus what's just coming out of someone's mouth.

So you got really strong critical thinking skills that have been well developed in engineering, but also I'm picking up that you might be an empath. Do you have, you have empathic sensitivity? You probably don't talk about that much.

No, I do, and I think sometimes people in business see that as a weakness. I definitely don't. I do think there's a line in the sand with regards to people taking advantage of that or using it in a negative way. And I think with training, coaching, with a psychologist who I definitely need to see even more often than I already see her, I think you learn to identify when people are misusing that skill or that softness in you. But I think empathy is critical to being a great manager and a great executive. Yeah.

I teach, I, I, one of the things that I teach is that we are not rational beings. Uh, we are totally, we are 100% emotional. Every decision we make is an emotional decision, even for you engineering types.

Yep.

Um, it's, and that's all based on neuroscience. I mean, for 4,000 years we've been, we've been taught that what separates us from other species is rationality. And it turns out that it's not. It's what separates us from other human beings or other species or, or the fact that we have emotions. And we're the only species that have emotions. Dogs and cats don't have emotions. The great apes don't have emotions. Only humans have emotions. And so many of our problems that we see in our societies are based on a misunderstanding—

yeah—

that we're emotional beings. And so when people think that empathy is a weakness, They are dead wrong. It is the foundational skill of human relationships. And there are some people like you who have natural abilities and other people like me that had to learn it. But the beauty is you can learn to be empathic. You can learn empathy. And that's what I teach. Yes, to your point, you're making a really excellent point about when you are listening to people, you're not just listening to the words. You're listening to the body language, the energy, that's the both the subtle energy as well as the physical energy that's coming off them. 94% of all human communication is non-verbal. Only 6% of the meaning that somebody is conveying comes from words. And so it's a skill to be cultivated, and it's a skill to be used to build relationships. And now, of course, that gets me to the next question. How important is listening? You've already answered that. Listening to you is— and listening, that whole body listening is probably one of the most important skills you've developed over your life.

I think it's not— so firstly, this is why podcasts like yours are so important, right? Because I think there's not enough voice or space being given to discussing these kinds of issues, which I think is really important to how we move forward. As humanity. And secondly, I, I don't know if I was born with a natural ability for it as much as I grew up with 3 sisters. So you're kind of in this environment where you need to learn how to interpret people's body language and what they're saying and getting to the core issues. And I think my sisters are all very independent, very strong, very smart. And as a result of the environment that we had in our relationship, growing up and as we've luckily matured as adults, being able to freely speak, question, ask, to understand, not just to hear and not just to talk, has been something that I've learned in part from them too. So yeah.

So in your work, you've been trained as an engineer, a lot of experience as a senior executive. Tell us how important listening is in your work.

If I did not listen, I would fail. And I actually think this is true for most executives, right? I think people need to be more inclusive about accepting different viewpoints so that you can build a more robust strategy or that you can have a more diverse workforce. Like I always say that innovation is bred by both necessity, which we have plenty of in Southern Africa, but it's also bred by True innovation is bred by diverse viewpoints and being able to understand why somebody sees something one way and not the other. Like, what is the intent for, uh, behind your marketing campaign, for instance, and what is the impact that it has on people, and why is there sometimes that disconnect? So I spend a lot of my time asking questions, asking seemingly random questions at times, to get to the true intent behind a statement or a viewpoint, which has been absolutely vital in my success at Lexi and at Eurex.

I find that, uh, I find that listening is critically important to validate other people. I call it listening others into existence. Wow, that's powerful, Doug, because so many people go through life and they've never been heard, they've never been recognized, they've never been validated. Even people at the highest levels of government or in, in industry or in business have never really been validated. And when you validate people, you become the leader that everyone wants to follow because, uh, you are touching them at the core of who they are as a human being.

Yeah.

And that's why I teach people how to listen to emotions instead of words, because that's, that's where, that's where the real validation occurs.

Yeah, I can imagine that that kind of training is extremely powerful. And I, I agree with a statement, I think Everyone really just wants to matter. And when you don't even give someone the light of day to listen, with intent to understand, you are not giving them an opportunity to matter. But when people feel that they matter and they are listened to, they are more invested and will contribute more, have more confidence. Like, it is 100% one of the most important management tools out there.

Well, yes. And if you're leading a meeting, I'm sure you've seen this before yourself, that you've got a team of, say, 8 or 10 people. Half of them are going to be introverts, half of them are going to be extroverts, right? The extrovert's going to suck all the air out of the room, and you're not going to get what you need from the introverts, who are probably the smarter people. And so you have to be very focused. I find in meetings that I lead that I've got to be very focused about creating an emotionally safe place for those introverts to speak. And I'll go around the room and say, Celine, you've been really quiet over there. What do you think about all this? And you'll hem and haw and say, well, I really don't want to say. Come on, Celine, I know you're nervous, you're concerned, but you have thoughts. I can see it. You've got some powerful thoughts here. Let me, let me know what they are.

I think that's so important. And what I've found with our team, especially with the younger employees, it's so important to have managers that are both introverted and extroverted so that people have behavior that, that they can model from people that they respect or that they see themselves reflected in. So cultivating a meeting culture where you actually ask people for their input creates an environment in which other leaders do that, or the people working underneath those leaders feel, yes, my voice is asked for, my opinion is asked for, therefore I matter, so I'm going to contribute more in the next meeting, right? I think that's really fun to see the the strategy play out in meetings. And most often it's the person who's been sitting listening, who is finally given an opportunity to speak, who has the most valuable idea.

Yeah. Oh, you're going to go a long way. You have a lot of wisdom for a young woman. Good for you.

Thanks so much. That's very kind.

One more question. I'll let you get back to your busy schedule. What's one thing about yourself that we would never know about? Unless you reveal it to us.

Hmm, there's a really embarrassing part of my, my past that I don't share in a work context. So, um, I in my 20s competed in MasterChef South Africa with one of my sisters, one of the fierce strong ones. Um, at that point in time, we were both working. She has her MSc in analytical chemistry, and I was working in renewable energy. And we decided to enter this just for fun, you know, just, we'll never get in, we'll just do it for fun. And we ended up actually making it into the show. She finished second, so, and I finished third. So my little sister beat me on national TV, which I'll never live down. But it wasn't It was an amazing experience to kind of drag us both out of our professional fields and teach us a lot of soft skills that we needed to survive in the real world, right? You're thrust into the public limelight. We needed to do a whole bunch of photo shoots and video shoots and interviews and speak to little kids whose parents throw us, throw them at us for a photo. You know, you, you learn a lot of communication skills by going through a process like that, which was super valuable but slightly mortifying when you are sitting in a room full of other executives. So definitely not something I publicize or that you would know about if I didn't tell you.

What exactly did you do?

We got, we got tortured by 3 professional chefs for 6 weeks straight and creating recipes out of thin air and competing under circumstances where they take certain equipment or access away from you or give you 3 things to cook with that don't belong together and you need to make a family meal for 6. It was really fun. It was problem solving but with food, which was—

How fun! I love to cook, so I'm— that's really a— that's fun. Good for you. Well, I'm glad you shared that with me. Thank you. Lovely. Well, this has been a lovely conversation, Céline. I hope our paths will cross again, and, and you are doing amazing work in the world. Just keep it up, please.

Thank you so much, Doug, and thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. I forgot we were being recorded at some point.

Good. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be you think would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up, ratings, and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.