106 - Breaking Barriers and Making an Impact with DeVry University's Elise Awwad

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Elisa Wad, you just blew me away in that moment ago because I was going to introduce you as the Chief Operating Officer of Doree University, which probably everybody has heard of, but you just told me that you were just— you are now, or you have been appointed and will become the president and CEO of DeRuy University come September. Congratulations.

Thank you, Doug. Yep, that's right. Was announced in July, and it's been here for 19 years. And if you asked me if I, you know, 19 years ago, if I would have ever thought that this is where my career would have sort of ended up, ended up, I don't think that— I mean, while I've imagined that it could have, I don't think that I would have ever thought 19 years later, here I am. Obviously, I'm super excited. September 5th is the official transition date.

I can see you just glowing. Well, what's amazing to me is you started out in admissions as an admissions officer. And you just worked hard and looked at the next rung and climbed it. And now you're an apex predator.

That's a funny way to put it. That's— that's— thank you, Doug. Thank you.

Although I understand university presidents are more like mayors than they are CEOs.

That— that— yes, yes, that's a good way to describe it as well. I, yes, started out at DeVry in 2004, actually. So I say 19 years, it's kind of 19 and a half years really as an admissions advisor. To your point, you know, sort of worked my way up, taking on increased levels of responsibility. And, you know, there were several roles that I didn't even apply for. It's just, you know, sort of you do good work, you bloom where you're planted, you get noticed, you get tapped, you move into the next role. And so I've been really fortunate since 2013 to be found— to be put in a position where, you know, my work got noticed and I was offered the next opportunity up through CEO.

Wow. So give us a little bit more about your backstory, how you got into education and from there what happened.

So after graduating college, I— and by the way, I went to college for small business management and entrepreneurship. I come from a family who's owned several franchise organizations. And, you know, I always thought, I'm gonna open up my own business, I'm gonna run my own company. The illusions of grandeur for someone that's in their, you know, teens and soon to be 20s. You know, life's not that simple. And so I quickly realized that I probably need to get a full-time job as I think through that plan. You know, pay off student loans, etc. And I'm like, okay, what do I want to do with my career? And I've always loved helping people. I've loved to volunteer. And I'm like, you know, I want to find something that allows me to do good work for others while feeling fulfilled in my day-to-day role. And so the opportunity to work in education came about. And, you know, I didn't want to— I love the collegiate environment. I did a lot of volunteer work at my when I went through my undergraduate program at Southern Illinois University in Carbondale. And I thought, wow, why not work at a university? Now, fast forward to having conversations with individuals about where I can possibly get my foot in the door. And a conversation came about where the opportunity at DeVry University was open for an admissions advisor back in 2004. And so, You know, loved what I did because I got to meet so many new people through conversations about, you know, what they're looking to do with their careers and then, you know, sort of placing them in the right program, which goes to sort of the conversation we're going to have today of how— why listening is so important in this industry. And, you know, getting to know so many people and then really truly seeing how much my role impacted lives of others in a good way. You graduate, you get a better job, you provide, you provide for your family, or, you know, you're able to sort of go off on your own if you're, you know, 18, 19 years old, getting an education and, and, you know, sort of creating your own life. So, you know, I never looked back. I love to help people. And so that's led me to stay at DeVry University and work my way up through the ranks.

Boy, I guess, by golly. Well, as you sit here today, I mean, you're at the very top of the administration of a very large organization. What is it that gets you really excited and out of bed in the morning?

I would say having the opportunity to work directly with partners, because this is, this is very much a, you know, we work with students, but we also work with partners across multiple industries to sort of understand what they need in their workplace, in the workplace. And so, and then, you know, working with the administration and the team here at DeVry to make sure that we're building our curriculum, our programs to meet those needs. And then an added bonus is seeing students enter the university without any background in higher education and successfully coming out thriving in their careers. And I think it goes back to really sort of having a meaningful, making a meaningful impact on people's lives. And so I think watching students thrive in the classroom and then equally important in the workplace gets me out of bed in the morning.

Wow.

So DeVry has both physical locations and also online presence. Is that correct?

That is correct. And I would say 90% of our learners are attending online, but we have physical locations across several different states. And that footprint allows us to support students the way they want to learn. Which is really important for us.

Right.

Now, you may be an online student in one semester, but then there may be a challenging course that you would, you know, want to possibly attend on-site where you can get some more hands-on support from, from a faculty member and others in the classroom live. And so, and we do offer both undergrad and grad programs. We say DeVry University, but We also operate the Keller Graduate School of Management, teaching undergrad and grad degrees in technology, business, and health, both to your point, online and onsite.

I am— I'm a chair of the board of trustees of our local law school and have been for many years. And the thought came to me out of the blue, how do you manage your accreditation with, you know, so many multiple locations? Do you have to get multiple accreditations or can— do you just get one and it's good for everywhere?

So we are accredited by the Higher Learning Commission, and that accreditation is for DeVry University as a whole. So we manage it through the Higher Learning Commission. We do have programmatic accreditations, and so those are managed similarly. It's not by location, it's at the university level managed through, it takes an army. So there's a, our chief academic officer and provost sort of manages the relationships with our accreditors alongside our regulatory affairs team. And then when I say it takes an army and a village, we all sort of support with documentation showing when we're up for reaffirmation and we're up for discussions with our accreditors showing the good work that we're doing here at DeVry. So it's an enterprise-wide effort. However, managed within the academics function primarily. But yeah, it's a— we have several locations and, you know, there could be visits that pop up with, you know, within each of those locations, but it's really through that, that, you know, Higher Learning Commission accreditation.

What is it about you that's unique that you bring to the table that's allowed you to succeed in the way that you have?

Passion, persistence. I mean, I can— I have an incredible amount of passion for our mission. I feel like, you know, if you love what you do and you believe in the mission, you will thrive in your career. And so I've not— you know, the passion that I had in, you know, day one advising students on the front line has never been lost as I moved up through the organization. And I will say that that experience has been incredibly influential in my career. Getting to have those conversations, getting to know our population of learners in a more intimate way has allowed me to sort of, as I've grown in my career at DeVry, make decisions that keep our learners at the center. And so I'll say passion, and I say persistence because You know, it takes, you know, there's always setbacks, there's always challenges, there's always, you know, dynamics that shift in the world that we live in. And it's an academic setting.

It's war by any other name.

Honestly, like, you know, there's always something that you're looking at, you know, that big challenge or big problem, you're like, well, that's unprecedented. I didn't think that I'd have to deal with having to sort of figure out how to navigate this. COVID's a great example. Who would have thought our country would have been shut down for, you know, close to a year? We'd have to pivot all of our operating procedures. You know, we were online prior to COVID, so, you know, it wasn't as difficult for DeVry to make that, take that leap and pivot. But I watched several other organizations grapple with that challenge. And so, I think, you know, just having to navigate those situations has always sort of been, I'll say it's fun. It's fun though, because you don't know what you know until you're thrown into an environment where you have to sort of relearn and think through things a little bit differently.

I tell you, imagine taking a small regional law school and going from in-class to online overnight.

Yeah, you know, and that was the story for so many.

Educators, right?

You know, we were really lucky. We were really lucky, and our staff was accustomed to working remote, so— and we had the technology in place and the infrastructure in place. But yeah, there were a lot of fellow travelers, a lot of friends that I have in the, in the industry that were looking for support. And we did actually, when asked and even proactively, offer support and expertise and guidance to others within higher education.

Wow, good for you.

Tough time.

Yeah, it was quite a time. And what's so interesting, at least with our little law school, is we never really intended to have an online segment, but now we realize that we have to have an online segment. So we've invested in all the technology for our classrooms, and it turns out that a law school in Southern California closed down, and we were accepting some of those students, and the only way they could attend is, you know, we're 200 miles north. Is they're going to be able to do it online. And they may never come to our campus, but it's pretty interesting.

Look at that, taking uncertainty in a challenging situation and innovating through it.

That's right. We weren't the only ones, just as you said. I mean, everybody was forced to.

Everybody was forced to, exactly.

Well, as you know, the title of this show is Listening with Leaders, and that's because as a lawyer turned peacemaker, I think that listening is a foundational skill of life. Tell me about listening in your career.

How important is it?

So I sort of touched on this earlier. Understanding the needs of those you're serving is so important. You can't understand needs without listening. And look, I get everyone is busy, and there's always an urge to sort of multitask when listening. And in our, in our, you know, line of work in our industry, it's one of the most important skills actually, and the importance cannot be overstated, Doug. Whether you're a faculty member, an advisor offering guidance like I was early in my career, an administrator, no matter the role, listening is a huge driver of outcomes and student success. And to unpack that a bit further, You know, it's important to understand students, what their goals are, where they need tailored support, especially in an online environment. When you listen, you're building trust, you're building rapport with your students. And then back to Partners, when you listen to Partners, you're learning from them and you're properly addressing their needs through the product that we offer. So, uh, you know, I cannot overstate enough how important listening is. And to that partner, to further sort of emphasize the importance of partnerships and listening to industry leaders, you know, it's important to listen to your customers. It's important to listen to students in our line of work. But when we listen to industry leaders, it helps us inform our curriculum, which then leads to relevant programs and a really relevant product that leads to strong student outcomes, i.e., placement, employment rates, etc. And so we try to do that through through National Advisory Councils, and we actually have a President's Advisory Council on Technology and the Economy. We are a higher education institution that really likes to infuse technology into all of our curriculum, whether it's in business, healthcare, or in our tech programs, obviously, because we believe that technology always and will continue to evolve and shape the way we work.

Hmm. How do you learn how to listen?

How did I learn how to listen? So practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. I think, you know, being an admissions advisor, that's one of the first things you learn is how to listen. I was taught very early on, 80% of your time talking to someone is listening, 20% is responding. So I live by that 80/20 rule. And I try to be actively engaged in conversations, showing interest and giving those I'm speaking with my full undivided attention. Which by the way, in remote environments can be so difficult to do because there's always that urge to multitask, always that urge to do something on the side versus in person, it's kind of hard to do that. And I learned early on in my career Avoid the desire to interrupt because when you interrupt, even if you have something to say around, even if you're agreeing with the person that you're listening to, you don't want to make that person speaking feel unheard. And so, you know, learned that, learned that early on in my career. And as I've navigated these increased levels of responsibility in my career, as I moved up through DeVry, I've learned to avoid making assumptions. Good for you. Look, you got to listen to the entire message. I don't make assumptions. I like to paraphrase and clarify so I can confirm my understanding before reacting. And that's an art, by the way. It's really difficult to do. But like I said, practice, practice.

Yeah, I divide— I just had an insight. Last week about listening, and I categorize listening now into two categories: Type 1 listening and Type 2 listening. Type 1 listening is listener-focused. That's where we're trying to gather information. We wanna make the speaker feel heard, but we're really trying to gather information so we can make decisions, give advice, or whatever. Type 2 decision, Type 2 listening is very different. Type 2 listening is all speaker-focused. And when we're engaged in Type 2 listening, We are listening from the speaker's frame of reference, and we are trying— our goal is to validate the words, the meaning, and the emotions that the speaker is experiencing while the speaker is talking to us. It's a completely different form of listening than Type 1. And so it's just interesting to hear it as I listen to you. You've got, you've got a little bit of a meld of both of them in there, it sounds like. There are times when you're listening, you know, you're gathering information, you're gathering perspectives and viewpoints because you have to make a decision, or you're gathering information. And then there are times when it's important that the speaker feel validated and heard. And so it sounds like you're kind of using a little bit of everything, um, in your listening. Does that resonate with you? I'm just testing out my theory.

It absolutely does, actually, and I've never heard it described as Type 1, Type 2, but that's That's precisely what, you know, when you look at the two different scenarios, that's precisely sort of what you're doing. It, you know, it's all situational, of course.

Of course.

And, you know, as a CEO and just even a leader in general, Doug, I think you need to be able to know when to be the Type 1 listener and when to be the Type 2 listener. And, you know, I find myself in the Type 1 mode more often than the Type 2 mode because I am trying to sort of seek first to understand and make the right decision based on all the input and the facts being presented. And so, uh, no, it definitely absolutely resonates. And I'm stealing that, by the way.

I wrote a little LinkedIn post on it last Friday, so you can go check it out.

Great. Yes.

Well, that— what I've learned, I mean I've taught reflective listening and especially a type of Type 2 listening called affect labeling, where you're listening to emotions, not words, for almost 2 decades now. And the power of it is that when you are doing Type 2 listening, you can calm any angry person in 90 seconds or less. You can build instant loyalty, instant trust, instant engagement in personal relationships, instant intimacy. So it has a unique power unto itself that Type 1 listening doesn't have. And you're absolutely right. Knowing when is it appropriate to use Type 1, when is it appropriate to use Type 2 is, is I think a foundational skill that we really need to spend more time talking about with people and getting more and more people educated about how important all of this is.

In the Type 2 listening also, is sort of a motivating approach for the folks that you're listening to, right? And allowing for, part of it is being, having a high EQ and being able to read a room and being able to read the tone. And I think in that type 2 scenario, you've got, when you take that approach, you've got a diverse group of perspectives that you're listening to, right? When you take that approach, people feel heard, people feel understood, people feel appreciated. And so I think it's a lever that's not pulled enough.

Yeah, you become the leader that everyone wants to follow. That's how more powerful it is. I'm the co-founder of the Prisoner of Peace Project, which I co-founded—

I read about that.

We didn't call it Type 2 listening at the time because I hadn't— my thinking hadn't been matured enough on it. But we started the project back in 2010 in the largest, most violent women's prison in the world and started training 15 women how to be peacemakers and mediators to stop prison violence. And 2 and a half years later, we got an unsolicited letter from the warden saying the prison was completely quiet as a result of Prison Peace. Just teaching But this foundational skill, along with a whole bunch of other skills, but this was foundational. First skill we taught the women was how to listen. And the other lesson that came outta that, you talk about EQ and emotional intelligence, you can just imagine 15 women who are all serving life and long-term sentences. They pretty much all have killed somebody. That's why they're in there. And they're flatlined when it comes to that kind of stuff. They, they in 5 weeks, they completely changed as human beings. They went from being these black thorns to these beautiful roses.

I love that.

It only took 5 weeks of training, listening to emotions, reflecting emotions, for them to get in touch with their own humanity and start developing very, very high levels of emotional intelligence. And what I've learned in the years since then is that as you practice Tai Chi listening, you actually develop your own emotional intelligence effortlessly. You don't have to go back to school. You practice this one skill and completely change who you are as a human being. And I witnessed it with teaching thousands and thousands of incarcerated people, as well as senior analysts at the Congressional Budget Office, how to de-escalate members of Congress.

Well, I have to say, you know, I did, I did read about your work and you have an incredibly impressive background and you've done amazing things in the data points behind the impact. Incredible. One of which you just shared. And that reminds me of, you know, another point that I want to bring up is, you know, the training that you've done and the work that you've done really sort of centers around creating a safe environment for people. And honestly, like, you know how much that matters?

It's everything. You saw the Google study. That came out a few years ago. Emotional safety is the number one driver of the top 1/10 of 1% top teams at Google. The only factor that the researchers could find that was universal was psychological or emotional safety.

Yep, yep. And that's such an important factor. Under-indexed, under-indexed factor. And I, you know, I, I, you You ever watch Ted Lasso?

No.

Okay. So there's this line in Ted Lasso and it's, be curious, not judgmental.

There you go.

And being judgmental means you're reacting quickly and you don't wait for that person to be heard. You don't ask questions. I often find that asking questions is sort of almost, you know, if you're confused, instead of, you know, assuming what you heard, ask a question, get, you know, get clarification. That's being curious. And so I've stolen that line, just like I'm stealing Type 1 and Type 2. And, you know, I feel like that's helped in driving the creation of safe environments and the psychological safety component of the work that we do when working with teams and working with students in the classroom. You want people to feel heard and supported. You want to drive engagement, you want to drive innovation, you want to bring for— you have people bring forward ideas, they have to feel safe. But you feel safe.

People, so many people, especially C-level people, don't get that. You do, obviously.

Here's an—

I'll give you an interesting skill differentiation. In Type 2 listening, you never ask a question. You only ask questions in Type 1 listening. Because in Type 2 listening, you're listening from the speaker's frame of reference. So that means you're going to be reflecting the speaker's words, meaning, and emotions. With a you statement and never— whatever they say is whatever they say. They own it. All you're doing is reflecting it back to them. Isn't that interesting?

And type— that is interesting.

You're in appreciative inquiry, right? You're trying to learn.

And like, what a great position for that presenter because they're not up there trying to, you know, impress their audience. They're up there trying to tell their story. And their audience is just reacting, you know, based on what they're hearing. So I like it. I like it a lot. And, uh, like I said, I look forward to reading up on that.

Okay. Well, we've kind of come to the end of our time here. I have one more question for you. What is one thing about yourself, Elise, that we would never ever guess about unless you revealed it to us?

So, um, I will say that I am, you know, back to the persistence comment that I, that I, that I made around, uh, you know, some, some might call it stubborn. I guess stubborn. Okay, so here's the— you're spot on. Um, I, uh, I like endurance sports, and so I, um, I'm a marathon runner. I'm training right now for a Century Ride in Door County, Wisconsin, which is a 100-mile bike race. And back to the stubborn and persistent comment, I became a marathon runner in 2019 after severely injuring myself in 2017 and being told that long-distance running was not going to be in my future. So what did I do with that? I said, yeah, I'm going to prove you wrong. And so I had shattered my left ankle. And had to have reconstructive surgery. I have 10 screws and a plate in my ankle and, you know, went through intensive physical therapy. I had a really good orthopedic surgeon and I decided at that point I'm going to run a marathon. Trained for one in 2019, ran it, ran my second one in 2022, and now I'm switching over to biking. I'm going to flip back over to marathon running again here in the spring or fall of next year.

So put up the red flag and you say, I'm at it.

Exactly, exactly. You know, I've always lived by the tell me I can't do something and I will prove you wrong.

That's the worst thing to say, say to me.

So I'm in good company. Absolutely.

Well, Elise, it's been a great conversation. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you for your, uh, for your time as well, Doug, and, uh, for all of your insights. Uh, truly appreciate you and your work.

Thank you.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media, just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs thumbs up, ratings, and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more?

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