108 - Executive Coaching for Privately Held Companies with MettaWorks' Rachel Rider

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Michael Ryder, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the CEO of MetaWorks, which is found at metaworks.com. .io, Meta, M-E-T-T-A, works.io. So welcome.

Thanks so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here.

Thanks. Tell us a little bit about your backstory.

I grew up in HR in fintech and found myself after running a very large set of layoffs at the time. That was about 10, 15 years ago. Now large means tens of thousands. I ran something like 100 globally, um, and I just realized I was creating karma that I was no longer okay with and decided to pivot into, um, leaning into the part of the work that I loved, which is partnering with leaders and helping them make strategic decisions, understanding how they're getting in their way. And over the years, I did that in-house at a couple of tech companies. And about 10 years ago, I stepped into my own company full force.

So, and, and tell us what you do.

I run a company that does executive coaching for privately held companies, usually for CEOs and their team under them.

Really?

I, I, um, that's interesting because I get engaged by privately held companies, sometimes by private equity people, to come in and help stop the fights and arguments.

Yeah, yeah. So I usually work with the individual at top to look at themselves as these arguments and fights are going on. So you're probably the mediator and I'm the one on the sidelines helping the one in charge saying, what are you doing to contribute?

That's exactly right. You're the one that's gonna make my work stick.

Yes, yes, that's exactly it. I think we are a great partnership.

Because I can come in and I can stop the fighting and arguing. I can teach 'em how to never have another fight or argument again. But if they don't do their inner work, it's gonna come right back.

That's precisely it. And so that's the premise of my work is the inner work with leaders.

There you go. Huh.

So what is it that gets you really excited in the morning?

That it's not all about the cognitive, that there's a powerful, I would say triumvirate, but you could probably add a couple more of the mind, body, and spirit. And when I, as an executive coach, get to work with a leader in the professional realm, working with them on that, the power that can happen, it, it consistently blows me away. And it's the thing I just love.

You obviously are very, very excited about it. Just the topic makes you just light up like a huge ball of energy coming off you.

Well, thank you. I mean, it really feels like magic. I think that's why I love it, because consistently people, like, their eyes get wide and they look around and they're like, how did I How is my life so wonderful? How is this? What, what's happening? And it's really a joy to be a part of that.

That's really cool. And, and what is it that you think is unique that you bring to the table that makes all the magic happen?

Um, I think I beautifully straddle the amorphous spiritual, non-cognitive realm and the professional realm very well. I've been a Buddhist practitioner since I was 13 years old. I've had a seeking heart since since then, particularly Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism. I've been trained in a Somatic Experiencing intensive program for 3 years, which helps you understand how to regulate your nervous system. And I grew up in the HR corporate world, and so I really can speak fluently. I feel like I'm the translator between the two, kind of the conduit or the connector.

This all resonates with me because I'm a— I'm a— I'm an energy healer myself. Uh, sort of a Tai Chi master. My wife is a sound healer.

No way!

Advanced spiritual master. She's an ascended master.

Uh, so cool. No wonder we needed to connect.

Yeah. So yeah, your work resonates. I understand exactly what you're talking about. Not everybody does. And what's interesting for me is coming— I mean, my background is as a trial lawyer. And so, so it was the energy work that got me out for exactly the same reasons that you've mentioned. Bad karma got me out of being a trial lawyer to become a peacemaker. And, uh, I've seen and done things that science can't explain, but I've done it and it's, it's real. Uh, and it's so— but that's hard. I've had— I've done workshops where I've been training people in some of the stuff that I do, and I've had people walk out saying, I see it, but I, I'm— this is too much for my head to handle.

Yeah, yeah. So they're not your people. They— I'm sure they found someone else.

So yeah, I totally get what you're doing. Um, so how do people find you?

It's really— it's been referral-based. I'm trying to, um, step into the light a little more. I wrote a book called Who You Are Is How You Lead, which starts to talk through how to start to understand your inner landscape. And one of the things I really like to do is try to concretize this, because like you said, this can feel really out there to someone who is unfamiliar with it. And so I really like to talk about the concrete world and how paying attention to what's going on inside your body and how those are signals to you about what's actually happening and listening to them and working with them actually changes the scope of the way you show up in the way you interact with other people. And so that's one of the things that I'm, I'm really stepping into more is wanting— I really want to bring this as a, a common language to the world in a professional lens. And so previously people found me through referrals, and now we're dipping our toe into becoming a little more public about our work.

Right.

And is that a little anxiety-producing?

Of course. Oh, if we're going to talk about inner work, I can talk to you about my inner work. I like to say, you know, myself, and I have a coach who works for me, that we are the product that we need to fix the bugs on. So that we can show up for our people. Right. You know, 'cause I do a lot of, I've done a lot of work in tech. We don't just do tech, but that idea of I am the template, so I better get really clear on what my inner work is. And so one of the pieces that's been really an ongoing lens for me to look at is what does it mean to be visible? How okay is that? What does it mean to be seen and heard and a more public figure? So that's certainly been a large piece of work for me.

I would guess, just sensing who you are, that that is going against a lot of childhood programming.

Yes. And if you are a believer of it, I would say lifetimes. So yeah, I think it's, you know, I think it's really, it's really disrupting old belief systems and neural pathways, right? Um, and so to really examine it and, and really take a close look at the the terrifying fear, my survival's on the line if I'm seen, and examining the truth of it. What's real about that? What's fair? What's, you know, what's taking care of me there? And what can be released?

Right.

How did it serve you in the past? How is it serving you now? How is it not serving you now?

Exactly, exactly. And I like to talk about, you know, those survival mechanisms as our protectors. You clearly have that language. And, and that they can get new jobs. You know, they don't have to go away. You know, fear is a fair and appropriate experience when there is a dangerous situation. And so I don't want that fear to disappear. I want it to just have updated information on what, what does danger mean now in this life that I've created in this adult world of mine.

Right.

You know, our brains have a hard— our brains really cannot distinguish at certain levels, um, a physical danger from a social danger. And so we will react to the social danger in the same way that we react to a physical danger, like a saber-toothed tiger.

Yes.

And we're not even aware of that.

Exactly.

And then we can do things to not be afraid anymore.

Yeah. And I think that's where it's so important in my training of somatic experiencing, one of the first steps in disrupting a habitual reaction, like that fear of the social gathering means death, you know, is to orient. Looking around the room, is there actually a tiger in the room? Is it a— is the house on fire or has someone just turned up the heat and you're warm, you know, and really paying attention. What is it around me right here, right now that's happening? And that's the first step in really disrupting.

And I do work in prisons and I train murderers to be peacemakers. Uh, I've been doing that for 12 years, and one of the— when we get into some of the more advanced training is that we're getting them ready to start learning to be mediators— is we work them through their triggers. And one of the things that I have them do is just what you're describing, where I say, what— list your 3 top triggers. What's going to get you angry no matter what, every time, without fail? And then I have them list all what all the 5 senses are telling them. Where are you What do you smell? What were you tasting in your mouth? What were you feeling on your skin? What was your whole somatic experience?

Because you're probably getting—

only reason you're getting triggered is because one of those cues is there to get you going. And once you start paying attention to your environment, you become more self-aware and less likely to get triggered.

That's so beautiful.

And we teach— yeah, we teach them that because they're going to be walking into high-conflict high conflict in prison with other incarcerated people, other men or women depending on the prison, and they've got to be able to keep their cool no matter what. And they have stopped gang riots. They've, I mean, they've done some amazing work.

That's what beautiful work you're doing. It's funny, I was thinking of the parallel of the CEO, you know, and, um, I'd like to think that CEOs are not murderers. There are some amorphous legal activity out there that might be parallel. But, um, that, that idea of the, the vitalness of being calm, cool, and connected because of how many lives they touch and how much impact they're having and how they don't even know how they're showing up might really affect negatively or positively someone. So I love what you just talked about and how translatable that is.

Yeah, I mean, it— I mean, In the prison work, Prison of Peace, we've had 600 of our students released on parole in California over the last 10 years. Not one of them has reoffended.

God, that's— what incredible work you're doing. That's wonderful.

Pretty powerful. Yeah. And it's directly translatable into the stuff that we do on the outside.

Yes.

It was doing all the work in the prison project that finally got me on the road to saying, you know, this is working so well in here. We need this on the outside.

Right, like let's not do it after the fact. Let's do it before something bad even happens.

Exactly. So that's what I'm kind of on a mission now to teach people these skills. In fact, let's just— the show is called Listening with Leaders for a reason, and that's because I think listening is the foundational skill of life. Tell me your perceptions about listening.

It's funny, we were talking before just in preparation, and when you were talking about listening, I thought, let's talk about the body. Because that's really, that's kind of the lens I come from. And not just the body, but also we don't talk much about spirit, but your relationship to what's bigger than yourself. And I think that those two pieces are really vital to the experience of listening to yourself and also when in the room with another. And when you're really keyed in, it's much harder to get reactive. Like you said, when you're paying attention to your senses, when you see your jaw is clenching, or, you know, you're feeling really dissociated or disconnected, those become pieces of information that can help you reorient before even saying out loud a thought that you're having or behaving in a different way. And so I think that listening is just pervasive, and it doesn't just happen with the ears. But I have a sense that you're already on the same page there.

Yeah. I describe two types of listening, Type 1 listening and Type 2 listening. Type 1 listening is the kind of listening that everybody does. You know, you're asking questions, maybe you're paraphrasing a little bit. Typically, you know, you're not listening to the other person. You're just trying to think about the next thing you're gonna say. Or if you are really doing some more intense listening, you're listening to gain information to make a decision. That's the kind of listening that most people think is listening. Then there's Type 2 listening, which is the difference between Type 1, which is focused on the listener, and Type 2 is that Type 2 is focused on the speaker from the speaker's frame of reference. I'm engaged in Type 2 listening, especially a type of listening called affect labeling. I'm listening with my whole body and I'm only listening to your emotions and I'm only paying attention to what you're feeling and experiencing in the moment. And then I'm gonna reflect to you what you're experiencing. And what brain scanning studies show is that when that happens, um, the emotional circuits of the brain are inhibited and the right ventrolateral prefrontal cortex is activated. So people literally calm down in less than 90 seconds. And that's— and, and then you take it beyond that. Even if somebody's not upset, I call it listening other people into existence. Because to your point, being in— many people feel invisible. Many people feel like they haven't been heard. Many people have never been validated. They've never felt emotionally safe in their lives. And when you use Tai Chi listing, that all changes. And you learn to listen. Obviously, you know, you have to listen to your whole body because only 3-4% of all human communication is verbal. The rest of it's all non-verbal, and there's all the energetic stuff behind it that nobody really talks about very much.

Yeah, it's interesting. As you're saying that, I think of just the powerful feedback I've received with clients about how wonderful it is to have space for them, to be listened to, to be— yeah, to be bore witness. Um, and the power of that, you know, even as a CEO who seems— is seemingly empowered when everybody's listening, but there's a very different experience when they don't— nothing's wanted of them, and actually that someone across from them is deeply curious and mirroring back. And so what you're saying makes a lot of sense to me because I've experienced it myself when being listened to in a certain way, and I've, I've received that feedback that it, it's actually very healing, um, their inner compass and their, their, their true self when that's happening.

And that's why it's so powerful. That's why I teach it, is because it's such— and when we go in, when I work in conflict very first thing I do is start listening to emotions, get people de-escalated. Um, back in the earlier in our conversation, I called out your anxiety. That's Type 2 listening, and that got you reflecting on it and got— led us down an interesting path to talk about. So that's, that's how powerful this stuff is.

Yes, agreed.

So one more question, I'll let you go because I know your time is short today. What's one thing about yourself, Rachel, that we would not know about unless you revealed it to us.

I am— it's funny, you know, people talk about being a perfectionist, and I actually don't think I am an external perfectionist, like in the concrete world. But because my bread and butter and my passion is the inner work, I am constantly curious about how I'm showing up. Inside myself. Where is that coming from? What is true about that? How real is that? And that, that is a constant. I think, you know, they talk about your superpowers are your kryptonite. I think when I'm at ease and grounded, that's a powerful tool for me. And when I am stressed and overwhelmed and anxious, it becomes a hamster wheel.

Well, there you go. Yeah, even people, even people who have spent lifetimes studying this stuff still have work to do.

Exactly. That's what makes us human, right? How boring.

Exactly, exactly correct.

If we weren't.

Well, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a great conversation.

Yes, thank you so much, Doug. It's a pleasure.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know For more, go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.