114 - A Personalized Approach to Providing Care for Children with Autism with ABA Centers of America's Christoper Barnett

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Christopher Barnett, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the founder and CEO of ABA Centers and a whole bunch of other companies as well. Welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. I'm honored to be here.

Thanks. I know we were talking before and there's— you are one of the most fascinating guys that I have met in a long time. Like me, you have a law degree, you have an MBA. How many? What?

Just a JD.

Just a JD. Okay. So tell us a little bit about your backstory.

You know, I've been a serial entrepreneur for 20 years and Oddly enough, I, you know, I had a— I dropped out of high school. I have a GED and a JD is my story. And so I started my first business at 18 years old with a GED and found a little bit of a success. And then I was in real estate and development and I started a number of other— built out other verticals. And then in 2007, the market crashed. And I've always been a nerd and wanted to learn. And so I rode out the recession by going back to school and getting a bachelor's and then go to law school. And I've been in healthcare for 10 years and I seek to, uh, make an impact.

Wow.

ABA Centers is unique in that it is serving families that have children on the autism spectrum. Tell us about that.

Yeah, so I've been in healthcare for 10 years and, uh, one of my daughters has autism. And so do some other family members in my family. And I had a unique perspective from a parent on what the availability of services were and what they would have to navigate in order to get into services. It's a space where there's just not enough supply. 10 years ago, it was the CDC said 1 in 200 kids are on the spectrum and now it's 1 in 36. And there's just not enough supply. And so with the infrastructure and the resources I have, I said, I think I can do it better. And in Q4 of 2020, we, uh, we, we opened up our autism provider, ABA provider, and it's been a wild ride of helping as many as we can, uh, with, with the best possible clinical experience we can offer.

I know looking at your website, you're kind of sprinkled all over the East Coast, and you said—

yeah, we're actually doubling our footprint right now. So we're currently in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Florida, And over the next 2 quarters, most of which this quarter, we're becoming operational in 3 regions in Texas, Tennessee, Georgia, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and DC.

That's amazing.

And it's all self-funding. Yeah.

That is a self-funded and massive expansion.

It's working. So we do a lot of research before I open a business and we sought to serve, to solve for certain pain points in the space. Barriers to growth being some of the clinicians and human capital. And so we built a company from the beginning to make sure that we could scale while maintaining clinical excellence by taking care of our employees and the market's responding. So we're able to hire and train and maintain the outcomes. Growth for growth's sake isn't good enough for me. I'm doing this for my daughter and for other family members. And so we view it through that prism.

And what kind of services do you provide at each of your centers?

So one-to-one care, long-term intensive in some cases, and in some cases only 6 months. Um, it's not atypical to have a client receive 20 to 25 hours a week of one-on-one care. We try very hard to meet the client where they're at. We do them in— we provide services in our center, at home, in school, in the community, basically anywhere the client goes, we're willing to support them because it's important to normalize the skills.

Right. Right. Fascinating. Well, I can tell what gets you excited in the morning, but what does get you excited in the morning, gets you up and moving?

So impacting, making an impact.

Yeah.

Honestly, I'm, I, I, I, I am driven by that. I, I wanna, we have such a cool team that we've been able to put together that are all rowing in their, their subject matter experts and their respective roles that are rowing in the same direction, direction, supporting the same mission. And with that, we have been able to accomplish stuff that people just wouldn't think is possible in this kind of timeline. And so I am motivated by impacting lives. I'm motivated by the kiddo that's sitting on somebody else's waiting list in a market that I've yet to enter. That's what we talk about. So we talk about the best cheeseburger, uh, which is, you know, we feel that we've created the best cheeseburger. Our clinicians have reduced caseloads, they have more education, they have more time to train other staff. So we've created this best cheeseburger, and it's our job now to try to feed the masses with it.

So getting excited, what gets you excited is serving others?

100% unequivocally. Yeah, I battle sometimes because I have 5 daughters and, and, you know, and I come from humble beginnings. And so, you know, my parents never had the freedom of not having to work and not having to do that. I have that freedom. And so every day that I pull myself, you know, I'm a worker bee, so I work a lot. I don't know what city I'm in half the time. And every day I pull myself away from those kids, what I think about the motivation is how many lives we can impact with the infrastructure we have now. Like, we spent years building this infrastructure. We, we're changing lives, employees, clients, family members of both. It's my job to scale that in a, in a clinically appropriate way in order to continue to do that for more people.

So what is it? What is it that's unique about you, Chris, that you bring to the table that has made all this magic happen?

So, you know, I don't know if it's unique. I place a real importance in my personal and professional life on serving others, is what it is. I, my— I teach my kids. If my kids were here right now, I have 3 of them of college age, they would tell you their job is to get good grades and help other people. What are your two jobs, girls? If you ask them, they'd say get good grades and help others. You know, my girls don't have jobs, so to speak, other than going to school, but they volunteer every week. So I live this. And so it's not unique, but my drive is to serve others. And it really, it isn't even my idea, Doug. I had a mentor named Ed that taught me that, that value in life comes from serving others, not from self-seeking. What can I get? And all I did is in the beginning I had enough blind faith to, to trust it and try it. And then I saw my life come together beyond what my wildest dreams were. And so in our corporate culture, it permeates that we serve and help others, including our co-workers.

Yeah, I, I, that's kind of the, that's the mantra that I lead to, service to people. Ask me, what do you do? I say it's service to others as a peacemaker and a, and a teacher and a trainer and a coach, uh, and a mediator., and it's so powerful. It's so simple, but it's so powerful.

And you know, does it act— have you found anything that feels better, Doug?

No.

Me neither.

You know, I practiced law for 22 years, and the reason I left the practice of law as a very successful trial lawyer is because I didn't feel like I was serving people, and I— it drove me out of the practice of law. Back to school to get my master's degree in peacemaking and conflict studies. And then all of a sudden, I was serving more people in a week than I served in 22 years as a lawyer.

So, yeah, you know, I like cars and I have a number of cars and I talk about the most exciting car purchase for me was— I'm talking to you from one of my offices in Medellín, Colombia, where I have a tech company and engineers that are writing code to deploy artificial intelligence and BI to really achieve better patient outcomes. Homes and a better quality of life for clinicians. And, um, my best car purchase story is not a car that I own. It's a woman that works for me here in this office, and her boyfriend works here too. And they've worked for me for, for a little over 9 months. And they stopped me walking through the halls one day when I was here, and they said, um, they said, I want to tell you something. Do you have a minute? I said yes. And they said, we just purchased a car, and I want to thank you. And understand that when my employees in Medellín purchase a car, they're not replacing a car. They were 25, 28 years old and they're purchasing their first car. Do you understand how that changes the quality of life for a household? And they were beaming with pride and they wanted to show me pictures and it was a brand new car and it was a Mazda and it was, you know, I don't know the model, but I want to say it's around $30,000 or $40,000. And they said to me, If not for our jobs here, we've been saving forever. And if not for our jobs here and what you pay us and what we do, we wouldn't have been able to achieve this goal. Thank you. And it's like, Doug, I don't care what cars you buy yourself. I don't care what— how exclusive they are. For a guy like me, that's the most exciting car purchase I can tell you about.

I love that. That's a great story.

That's what motivates me. That's the answer to your question.

Yeah.

Or the mother that, that, that has been waiting on a waiting list since— for one of my competitors for 2 years because they just don't have the bandwidth. And we enter their market and we take their nonverbal 4-year-old, and 6 months later they write me an email and say, my 4-year-old just said, I love you, Mommy, for the first time. And like, you can see— I know you can, you can see the emotion on the screen of the email.

Right.

So like, I get it. In business, you know, we— business, we— a lot of people keep score with dollars and cents. I don't. I don't. I keep score with that, right? That's what motivates me in the morning. So like, I, I— before we went recording, I was telling you, I feel like I have the best job in the world. I get to make a living doing this.

Yeah, it's extremely satisfying and fulfilling and creates meaning. There's so many people that I talk to on this show and elsewhere that are making a lot of money, but they don't have any meaning in their life, and they, they face this emptiness that, you know, they can't fill. And what do you do with that?

The only thing I found is to help others.

That's exactly—

I've had really successful businesses that didn't have the same impact on others, and it wasn't nearly the same, because at the end of the day You can only eat so many steaks or wear so many Italian suits or travel in such a way. And then what's left?

Right, exactly. And that's it. I mean, I had— as a successful lawyer, I made a good amount of money, had the big house, the big car, all that stuff. You know, it becomes meaningless after a while, right?

It becomes empty in my experience.

For me, exactly correct. And now I've got a 2013 Subaru Outback that probably hasn't been washed in a year and a half. Drive by— my commute's a mile down a dirt road to get to a paved road, but still only one lane. To a two-lane highway that I got 20 miles before I see my first freeway. You know, happier.

Do you feel more fulfilled?

I've never been happier.

You would never take it back, would you?

Never. Not, not for a second.

You, you're impacting lives. You're making a difference. Your legacy is something.

And that's the— I think that's the message to send to everybody, is that start thinking about other people. Serve. Find ways to serve them. And try not to bow at the altar of the almighty dollar.

My favorite book is called the— well, my favorite pleasure reading book is The Alchemist. That— and the main tenet of the book is that when you want something bad enough, the universe conspires to bring it to you. But my favorite business book is called The Go-Giver.

And it's—

I've got that.

Isn't that an amazing book?

It, it— that's my belief system, Doug. And it's funny because I only recently found it, like few years ago, and my mentor Ed taught me that belief system without ever being exposed to that book 10 years ago.

Yeah.

And, and it, it's incredible if you live by it, what the benefits are.

That's how I do my business— give, give, give— and it works.

And you know what, what I find, Doug, if you live it, if you live it, don't just talk about it, if you live it, you're able to attract this team of mission-driven experts that go to lengths that, that, that, that, that people don't generally go to for business because it's not about just a dollar for them. The team members that I've been lucky enough to surround myself with are so much brighter than I am in their respective fields. They teach me every day, whether it's about culture or marketing or finance or leadership. They teach me about all of it, about clinical, obviously. And I truly believe if we don't live the culture that that book talks about, Doug, if I don't live it, and if that doesn't permeate through my organization those people, because those people can work anywhere, bud. They don't work for me, they don't work with me, right?

No, I'm absolutely there. Um, generosity is probably one of the most important leadership characteristics you can, you can develop. Absolutely.

Well, more than just money, by the way.

Pardon me? It's not just money.

No, more than just generosity of time itself. Authenticity.

Well, that's what I want to pivot now to. The title of this show is Listening with Leaders because I teach a very sophisticated form of listening that most people don't know about. And I just want to get your impression of how important has listening been in the success of you and all your businesses? Yes.

Yes. The one-word answer is yes.

Yeah.

So listening teaches me how much I don't know.

Well, let me, let me just, I, I, in the recent weeks I've been, I've sort of analyzed this down a little bit and I've come up with some insights. Let me share my concept with you and then you can kind of tell me where you fall in this. So I've, I've determined there is really two types of listening. There's Type 1 listening, which is the kind of listening where we're talking to people, we're gathering information, we're making judges, we're making assessments, but it's basically listener-focused. I'm listening to you because I'm interested in doing something for me. Then that's the way most listening happens with parents and kids and friends and colleagues, and that most people engage in Type 1 listening. But there's a different kind of listening that I call Type 2 listening. And in Type 2 listening, the focus is not on me, the listener. The focus is on you, the speaker. And what my intention is to validate you, to make you feel heard, to do what I call listening another person into existence. By validating your emotions and your intended meaning, even if you're not speaking your meaning clearly. And so my total focus is to make sure that you feel deeply heard from your frame of reference, not from mine. And when you do that, all kinds of magical things happen. So I distinguish these two types of listening, and I'm just curious if you've experienced— I know you've experienced Type 1 a lot. I'm just curious if you've— I can't— you have to have experienced Type 2 before. To be able to do what you're doing?

So I think I have. And I think the best way that I can exemplify that is one of the tactics I try to use is because I learned a long time ago that I could hear people without listening to them. And I had a tendency to do that and to move too quick. And I already assumed I knew what the end of their sentence was, so I just tuned it out at some point. And it made me a really poor leader. And so one of the tactics I started incorporating is mirroring because perception enforces that I truly listened. So, you know, Doug, what I heard you say, for instance, is I heard you say that there's another level of listening that offers an increased validation for the speaker and really builds a sense of connection. Is that what you said?

So let me, that's active listening, which, and you're good at it. Let me give you a new spin on it.

Please teach me.

I'm gonna teach you a little bit.

I want you to please.

Yeah. Number 1, don't use an I statement. Say, Doug, what you just said was X. And then you paraphrase as you did, which was excellent. And then you don't ask a question. So Doug, what you just said was that listening is a foundational skill of life and that there are 2 types of listening and type 1 listening is listener-focused and type 2 listening is, Speaker-focused, and where you're really trying to listen to the intended meaning and emotions of the speaker. And if you just do that, and you don't have to ask the question because they'll tell you whether or not you got it right or not. Well, Chris, yeah, that's pretty good. You got it exactly right. And you don't have to use the I statement because the moment you start using the I statement, you're into listening type 1. It's all about you, the listener. So always use a you statement. Never ask a question. Now, one more thing to add to the equation since we're in coaching mode here real quick.

Please.

Um, if you want, try adding emotions. What's the emotional— what's the emotional experience that the speaker is having as the speaker is talking? So let me give you an example. So why don't you tell me, um, go back and tell me the story about the young couple that bought the car.

Yeah, so, so I was— I'll give you an abridged version. I was walking through my office in the very busy meeting-to-meeting schedule, you know, a team of people rushing me to the next one, and they said, do you have a minute? And I stopped and I took the minute, and they, they basically explained to me that they bought a new car and that it was possible because of the job they had here, and that they wanted to thank me for them reaching their dream and my impact in that, or whatever small impact I had.

Who's Chris, you were, you were on a, on a rush down the hallway to get to the next meeting. Your handlers were impatient because they needed you to get to the next meeting. And some of your, a couple of you, a young couple who are employees of yours stopped you and told you about the car purchase they, they made because of the fact that you created jobs for them that paid well enough to get it. And that made you so happy. You were so excited. You felt so fulfilled. You were almost bursting and you lifted off the ground. And the rest of the day was like easy peasy because you were on such a high knowing that you had deeply affected this young couple's life. And even to this day, it brings tears to your eye.

It really is. It's a powerful thing for me. Thank you. Yeah, you get it. Yeah. See, that's what you're really—

yeah, yeah. Now, yeah, I do see how it works. Yeah, that's the skill that I teach. I teach people how to do that, and there's a way to learn it and a way to master it. Um, but, but I think that as leaders, we don't pay enough attention to this— the subtleties of this kind of listening that can build a team loyalty, build engagement, build trust, you know, in our families, build intimacy, build emotional safety. And that's why, that's why I think this stuff is so important.

Making it a safe space to speak up.

Yeah, I mean, in any organization you've got 50% introverts, 50% are extroverts. How do you get the introverts to contribute and shut the— shut down the extroverts a little bit, right? Because they're always going to be jumping in, and a lot of them will be judgmental and critical, and they'll tell you, yeah, that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. You don't want that kind of language going on in a room. No, let's, let's get— let's go around the room and find out what everybody thinks. And when I'm leading meetings, I make sure that everybody in the room speaks.

I could do a better job at that, Doug. Yeah, no, I try to do it also, but it's an area that I want to continue to improve.

It's just a focus. It's just focusing, because recognize that you've got half the people in the room don't like to talk. They don't like to put themselves out there. They're internal. And they're the people, they're people that are going to have the best ideas in the room. And every now and then a gem is going to fall on the table from one of these people that normally would not participate in a meeting. And you're just going to say, where did that come from?

Especially when you're the CEO or the leader. So naturally some people become nervous when they're in a meeting with you. And so I, I try wherever possible to disarm them and to bring a moment of levity and to encourage them to come outside their shell because You know, they're— if they're sitting in a meeting with me, somebody in my team has identified in my talent acquisition that they have something incredible about them that they can offer to our mission, right? And so I want to hear that. I want to— yeah, I want to— I want it to be a safe space that even if I don't agree with it, I want to hear it.

Oh, absolutely. Because you don't want a bunch of sycophants hanging around you.

You want people—

you want people with diverse opinions. And so it's that we're going to change the world, Doug. There you go. You want to— you got to create the safety for people to do that. You've got to make it okay for the quiet ones to, to say what they want to say without feeling like they're going to get judged or criticized. And, you know, and I mean, to me, that's just a critical skill. That's another thing I teach is I said, as a leader, you should always be teaching and coaching two levels down. You're always on your direct reports, you're always coaching the people that are going to replace you. And then you want to be coaching the people that are going to replace them. And if you've got people that are resistant to that idea, out the door, because they need to be doing the same thing all the way down to the bottom.

I agree. And I even take it a step further. Good. So I expect my— I want a culture where we identify diamonds in the rough. I want a culture— I believe that when the world's been good to you and you found success, that it's your job to help others. It's just what I believe. And so almost all of my C-suite, and it could be all, and I just aren't aware of the particulars, have or currently do mentor somebody that's like 6, 7, 8 levels below them. Wow. Because they— we— so my COO is incredible, and he's taught me more about culture than I've learned in my 20-year career. And he instituted this culture of high-highs, which are high performers with high potential. And he says, we need to pay them the respect and time that they deserve. And so because of that, we've started identifying who are the high highs. And what it does is it takes the next level down of meets, acceptable, and they go, why aren't I a high high? And they ask their supervisor. And their supervisor, if we're doing this right, goes, well, it's because you don't help out your team, your coworkers enough, or you don't take initiative enough, or you could do this. This is the only thing you're missing to be a high high. Right. And so it's this culture of growth towards high, high. And so because of that, we mentor. I want to change lives. And the beauty of when you've had a multi-decade career and you've created some authority or you have some reach is that you're able to change lives really quickly. And so we not only mentor 2 runs down, but I'll speak for myself. I probably have 2 or 3 team members that work for me and another 2 or 3 people that are vendors that don't work for me that I give my time to mentor.

Wow.

I want to change their lives. And it does— it's not free, right? It's free, my mentorship is free, but they, they've got to do their part, right? And so I'll sit down with you and I'll give you suggestions and we'll, we'll game plan together. Tell me what your goals are. I don't want to give you your goals. Tell me what your goals are and then we'll work out together how we best think you can accomplish them. And then you'll have action items. And then as soon as you get that list of action items done, you call my office and get another meeting. And then we sit down and we talk. And if you don't get those actions— I have people that I've mentored for years that I haven't had a meeting with in 4 months. And when I see them, they And they go, I'm working on them, I promise. And I go, no, 'cause I'm up, hey, I'm here as soon as you're ready. And then I have some that I meet with every week and they're eagerly sending me emails and I make time for that. And so I want to lead by example and I want the rest of my C-suite to do that 'cause I want to change lives.

Yeah, no, that's great, man. You're amazing. I don't know about all that.

I have to make a lot of mistakes, Doug, just to be clear.

I understand, but you know, there are not a lot of people that I meet have got the attitude that you have. Well, we kind of come to the end of the half hour. That went fast. Let me, uh, I got one more question to ask you, Chris. What's one thing about yourself that we would never know unless you revealed it to us?

So I think whether it's because of title, or sometimes I move quickly and I'm abrupt, I think people— I have, if you don't know me, I have this gruff exterior, this very like, oh, he's a savvy businessman. And I am a, uh, I'm a, I'm a marshmallow is the answer.

I am, I, I am, I am I am authentically, authentically sensitive.

I am, I am, I am thoughtful of others. I, I, I am harder on myself than others. Like, I— that's one thing that without asking me, people have this impression of who I am by how I dress or walk or live my life, and it's just not that.

It's pretty obvious to me because you're not afraid to cry. And that tells you. Yeah, correct.

But 10 years ago, I was, Doug. Eddie, Ed McHenry taught me that. He said, I want you to be the same Chris in the boardroom as you are in your living room. That's the goal. Authentic.

Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation, Chris. It's been a real pleasure and honor talking with you.

Man, I am honored to be here. Thanks so much for the work you're doing, Doug, and thank you for the invitation.

You're welcome.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.