117 - The Unstoppable Force Behind Empowering Women in Transition with Rebel Nell's Amy Peterson

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Amy Peterson, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the co-founder and CEO of a company called Rebel Nell. Found at rebelnell, R-E-B-E-L like rebel, and Nell, N-E-L-L, and there's a story behind that, I know, .com. Thanks for showing up on the show.

I'm honored to be here. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. So let's start off with a little bit of a backstory. We were talking before, uh, we started recording that I, I feel like we have a lot in common. Tell us a little about yourself and your, and your back, your backstory.

Sure. As we mentioned earlier, I'm certainly a recovering attorney. I, my journey started, I was about 14 years old. I know that sounds crazy, but I really, really wanted to be the first female general manager of a major league baseball team. Like, that was it. That's what I, I wanted to do. I certainly wanted to work in professional baseball. I guess maybe the dream of the female general manager came later, but it was always really a goal. And, and I, I kind of set out on that journey at a pretty young age, just took internships here and there and went to law school primarily because I wanted that well-rounded brain. I wanted to be able to understand contracts, but it was all with the mindset of how to work in baseball. And afterwards, I went and got my MBA for that same reason. I had a lot of people tell me there's no way you can do it. I had a guy who was going to be my really, I was hopeful he was gonna be my mentor and kind of be my foot in the door. He owned a bunch of minor league teams, and I met him when I was in business school through my professor. And I told him of my aspirations, and he literally laughed at me and said, "Honey, your best bet is to marry a player," which, you know, all women love when they get called honey right from the start. And I said, I respectfully disagree. I went back and started firing off a bunch of letters. Long story short, I ended up moving to Detroit and had an internship with the Detroit Tigers in 2007 and worked my way up to being associate counsel for them. Spent 11 years there. And that, that's, that's what brought me to the great city of Detroit. At the time, I was living right next door to a well-known shelter. Being in sports was challenging as a woman, particularly with, you know, my drive and ambition to get on the player development side. And I was frustrated by this and also at the time living next to a shelter that was focused on women. So I got to hear these incredible stories of women who left challenging situations in search of better opportunities for their families. So I was like, screw it, I'm going to start a company dedicated to empowering women and Rebel Noll was born. That was a long, long answer.

Wow. Well, you, you— what really resonates with me is, is that my journey was, uh, somewhat similar. 22 years as a trial lawyer and then decided to become a peacemaker and left law, got my master's degree in peacemaking and conflict studies, and walked away from $10 million with one week's notice and completely changed my life. Sounds very—

I understand.

Sounds very similar to what you did.

I understand.

Tell us a little bit about what Rebel Nell does.

So Rebel Nell, we're a verified social enterprise, so we exist to provide employment for women who are transitioning out of shelter living. Our goal is to provide the wraparound and support so that we're providing more equitable opportunities for them in the future and creating that pathway to self-sufficiency. And what we're known for is we make unique, one-of-a-kind jewelry and gifts out of repurposed material. So in Detroit, we've gotten quite a name because our jewelry is made from repurposed graffiti.

Really?

Another iconic location. Yes. So we wanted it to be Detroit-centric. And I, you know, I think this is— I'm starting to get a better job of incorporating this piece of the puzzle into the story because it is a really important piece, but one that I haven't really given a lot of credit to. I started the business in 2013, and Detroit had just announced bankruptcy, just filed for bankruptcy, and it was the largest municipal bankruptcy the country has ever experienced. So Detroit looked a lot different in 2013 when I started the company than it does right now. And I wanted to highlight the beauty of Detroit. I was always grateful that Detroit gave me a chance at my dreams. And so I had a different lens. I came, I had a different view of the city. But it's beautiful, the murals that are all over the place. And I saw a piece that had fallen on the ground. And at this point in time, I had the concept, the mission behind Rebel Nail. I knew that was going to be, but I needed a product to sell to support it. And so I saw a piece of fallen graffiti, you know, street art, and picked it up, thought it was made up of all these really cool layers. And then we were able to expose those layers, and I thought, wow, this is just amazing. It's very beautiful, it's very kaleidoscopic, but I love that every piece is one of a kind. I love that there's a story behind it, that we're all made up of layers. I love it so much for— not only were people around the country discarding Detroit, but I also feel that in many ways society discards the, the women that we have the privilege to serve and they're beautiful, incredible humans that have amazing layers of ideas and creativity and history. So that's how we came up with the jewelry made from repurposed graffiti.

Wow.

And then we've since expanded into other things and doing it in other cities. And, um, yes, but that's, that's the start.

So it— so I, I presume that Michigan has a, um, a law or part of its corporate, the corporate laws provide for a company that is not nonprofit but not completely for-profit either. There's a—

Correct. We're an L3C. Yes.

And so describe that for me.

Yeah. And an L3C is a limited low-profit liability company. What makes it unique? So in this, also was a term that was gaining some traction when we started the company in 2013. There was a big push. There had been changes in legislation and, and there was some initial support behind it. It's not as strong as it was. I'm probably You know, I'm considering at some point in time, if I ever come up for air, to maybe exploring a B Corporation, but this was equivalent to that at the time. And what makes an L3C is taxed no differently than an LLC. The only thing that makes it unique is that we, as an L3C, you are eligible to receive PRI investments, the program-related investments that, so foundations have to give away 5% every year. And they— so we can qualify as an investment that they can make through the PRI. So typically that can be in a low-interest impact loan. So that was the reason behind it. That's really truly the only advantage of it. But then when you run— what you run up against is the foundation has to be willing to do it. And it's just still so new, and I think that's probably one of the complicated parts about— in Detroit, it's very— foundations, a lot of them have very old-school mentality. If it ain't broke, why fix it? There's a lot of administrative costs that come with giving PRIs to social enterprises, but my hope is that we can change that. We've gotten a couple, and to me, I feel very passionately about paying them back so that it opens the door for other social enterprises.

So how are you funded?

Through our jewelry sales, really.

Oh, you're— I mean, it's bootstrapped commerce.

We're really trying. I'm really, really trying to prove, um, the sustainable— like, I really want to believe that, and it's not easy, um, that we can be a nationally recognized brand that has the impact built into the model. So our goal is to be 100% funded through our product. Wow. And it's been difficult. We haven't been the most successful at it. The first 5 years, yes. Then we went into like a scaling mode and right when the pandemic hit. So the past 2 years were very challenging. But now we're getting back on our feet again.

What is it that, with all this struggle, what is it that gets you really excited in the morning to get out of bed and say, okay, another day, let's go for it?

I think that, like, the piece of the puzzle to prove that I can do this, like, to do something really innovative and different and to know that we can have and impact and be really innovative in that space. I, you know, there's lots of brands out there that do good, and there's lots of brands out there that donate, but the ones that are fully immersed with the employee model, those are really hard. And to have that be at the foundation and to grow to be a nationally recognized brand, that excites me because that means, yes, we've had You know, we've hired 41 women out of the shelter to date, and I'm proud of that number. But if we get this humming, it can be thousands of women that we can impact.

Um, and that's because you can scale the business across the country.

Yeah.

So when you hire women out of the shelter, what, um, tell me what that path looks like.

So we work really closely with a nonprofit that we, we started. Now we just partner with They— we really, we transitioned all of the relationships we have with our shelter to the nonprofit partner, T. But that's the secret to our sauce, is the relationships that we have with the shelters. So they know, they know what we do, they know what we offer, but we are really— I think of it as a pipeline, right? That the women in the shelter, the caseworkers, are really the ground zero. They're doing all the incredibly hard work. So it makes sense for us, them to be our referral partners. So we can assist them on taking the women that they've worked with who are ready for this type of opportunity. Not every woman is ready. Then they will refer to us. And then we work really closely with them in the initial, like, onboarding. And then the first year, I really think of it as getting them to a place where they can breathe. So let's start right off the bat with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Let's get you out of the shelter is fast as we can. Some are kind of on the point where they're transitioning out, some are still in the shelter when we hire them. We want to get them housing as soon as possible. Then we start analyzing their budget. Everybody's budget's going to be different, you know, based on the number of kids, based on everything. Understanding what that looks like, starting to change the mindset of, you know, really shifting from the poverty mindset of Well, if I have money, I got to spend it. Like, how do we work on even saving a little bit of the first paycheck to go towards your rent so that you're not putting all of your last paycheck in rent? Like, that's just one example. Then we start working on credit score. I firmly believe if you know your credit score, you have that intact, the world is your oyster, no matter your background, even if you are a returning citizen or coming out of prison system. So that's, that can be a game changer. And it's, so we just kind of like chip away at that. Then we work on transportation issues, if they need to get any records cleaned up. Then the second year is now that you can breathe, what have you always wanted to do? And then we kind of focus the second year into getting them closer to that dream job because they have the space to think. And then ideally, we'll graduate them into a job that's more in line with their dreams and their vision.

So do they— are they become employees of the company and work?

They are full-time employees of the company for approximately 24 months. Some can get promoted internally, but some will graduate to, um, you know, different jobs. We have placements for them because our job is that transitional landing, that soft landing space, um, where we're able to kind of take them that next step so that they're ready for a full-time job. Sometimes they're not ready when they're transitioning out of shelter because they're they've still gotta figure some things out. Uh, we work alongside them, so it's a full-time job that they have with us, and we actually are paying them to take the classes offered by our nonprofit partner.

Wow.

So then, yeah. And then they will graduate into— that's what we call a graduation. But our, our dream is by then they're graduating to jobs with better pay and benefits. That's where we want them to place because we know that they can now sustain those jobs because most of the women that we employ haven't held a job for longer than 6 months. Wow.

So they— you actually bring them in, they become employees, you pay them, you educate them, help them, mentor them, coach them. Are they, are they doing any work for the company, or are they— or is their full-time job just to get their feet back underneath them?

No, no, they're making the jewelry, they're, they're manufacturing.

They're manufacturing. Okay. And so, so they're, they're doing all that, and in the meantime, you're providing a whole bunch of support underneath them.

Yeah.

Help them grow out of, as you said, the poverty mindset to become successful. Yeah, but I know, I mean, it's so fascinating. It's such a similar story to my journey with my colleague Laurel Kaufer in Prisoner of Peace. Except we work with incarcerated people that are still in prison, both men and women. Um, but same idea of going in and teaching them foundational skills that in our, in our purpose is to stop prison violence.

Um, yep.

I'm sure you have some amazing transformational stories. Does anything come to mind that really resonates with you that you can share with us?

I mean, there's a lot, and, and I also think it's important— there's a lot of really bumpy roads, right? There's— it's not sunshine and roses when you walk into Rebel Nellis. The journey is still going, and we always tell them, you know, it's a roller coaster ride, and we're here for the ride. The goal is just to stay on the track. Wow.

What is it?

So yeah, I'm— oh, go ahead, go ahead. I was gonna say, like, one of our, I think, proudest moments is that, you know, one of our early employees came in, she was very conscientious of all the classes being offered and really, really worked hard to improve her situation. And now she serves on our board at TEA. And I just think that's like, you know, we talked about before we started recording, you know, why do you do it? There's, there's, there is an adrenaline rush. And it's like when you have those stories of impact. And when somebody succeeds, you know what it feels like. And so you just are constantly chasing that.

We keep telling ourselves, once you start this work, you cannot not do it.

Yeah.

I mean, and it's really hard for people that haven't done this kind of work to understand how powerful it is to work with people—

Absolutely.

—who are thrown away by society and watch them transform before your eyes. Yep. It's an amazing—

and just such a dis— I also get frustrated with just like such a disconnect in society. And, um, yeah, don't get me started. I know, I know. It's, it's mild. It's like, it's wild how, um, frankly ignorant people choose to be.

Yeah. And how our priorities, our social priorities are so wrong. Oh my God. And I would have never, I would have never understood that had I not had the experiences I've had for 15 years training life inmates to be peacemakers in prison. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't get that.

So I think you're right. I think it's, it's evolved for me a lot. I knew it was broken. I knew the system was broken when I started Rebel Nell. Um, I, but I, the, to the extent of how broken it is, I had no idea. And how it's meant to keep you in it. And yep, it's, it's just, it's so hard to get out. Yep. And the perseverance these women have and dedication they have to get out is the stuff of legends.

Yep. And people have no idea. No clue. No clue. Um, so what is it that's unique about you that you bring to the table? That makes all this work despite all the stress and difficulty and challenge?

I am persistent. I am tenacious. Those are two words I would use to describe myself. And I think that's why I've been able to do it for 10 years.

It's so interesting to hear that because that's— if I were to describe my dear friend, co-founder Laurel Kaufer, We call it the bulldog.

Yes, I feel like I am a bulldog in many ways. Like, I'm just not going to take no. I'm going to keep going despite every single challenge, boulder, roadblock, hole, sinkhole. Exactly.

But we do. I think, at least it's been my experience, that we do that and we just do what people think is impossible because when you see the results, You say this is worth it. Yes. This is time well spent. Yes. Yeah, there's no money in it, but who cares? I'm done with money. Made plenty of money.

I'd like a little more, but like, of course, just a little bit more just to not worry. But other than that, I'm— but you're right. I, you know, I walked away from a very lucrative, and when I think of where I would be even now in my career, um, And even during the really tough times, I was talking to my husband, I was like, I don't think I could go back. No, I love, I love what I do. Yeah. I love what I do. I agree.

I could never go back to the practice of law and I was very good at it.

I could. Yeah.

And I, I look at my colleagues now, people that I see, uh, and they look, they look like they were just dried up husks. The system just sucked them in. Yeah. And I, yes. I'm healthy. I mean, I'm 72 years old. I don't look it. I don't feel it. I don't act it, you know? I mean, good for you.

It's awesome.

It's, you know, it's just when you do something meaningful, it, it, that creates meaning in your life, everything else seems, just seems to fall into place.

I agree. And you just gotta, that, that's the biggest thing too, is, is there's such a, a trust you have in yourself. And I'm not saying you don't have days where you doubt it, But I think at your core you believe, and that's what also keeps you going. That's what keeps me going. And I— my husband, again, last night he was talking, he's like, Amy, I'm so proud of you, because we went through really, really tough beginning of the year and last year, really tough. And the easier option was to shut down. That was just— that, that's what could have happened. In fact, my business partner jumped ship during that time because I think she lost the faith. And I just believed that we could fix it. I just believed that we could turn it around. And that's important to have.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there were plenty of times when we were ready to quit.

Absolutely. Too hard.

It's not easy. No, no. But to your point, persistence, perseverance, and just pure stubbornness. Yes. And all of a sudden you start seeing results. I mean, the pandemic was a, you know, shut us down. Yeah. You can't go to prisons when people have COVID. Right. And we took the lemon and made lemonade. I think I told you, we, you know, we took— Yep. The state funded us and said, you gotta spend the money. I thought, how would we spend money? We can't go into prison. We don't care. Spend the money. So we took $800,000 and hired a film crew and filmed our entire curriculum. Amazing. And I mean, it just turned out, and it turned out incredible. So, you know, and I guess if you don't do the work, this kind of work, it's really hard to describe for people what it's like.

Yeah.

I mean, do you see any of your old colleagues?

Oh, all the time. I'm fortunate that they come in and visit and will sometimes lead seminars for the next generation. Yeah.

Now, what do they have to say about all the work you're doing?

Oh, they, you know, there were a couple of really intense times. One was in 2016. It was another really rough year for us, um, and we almost shut down then, very close to it. And it was the women that really pulled me and my business partner aside and were like, Amy, the world needs more Rebel Males. This is, this is how women are able to succeed who are coming from challenging situations. We— because they need that soft landing place. They still can't— it's really hard to transition straight from shelter living into a full-time job that requires so much of you. But there's, you know, we can be that, that buffer, that landing place. And that was the motivation I needed at that point in time to keep going. And they're— yeah, they're amazing. They I'm lucky.

Yeah, I agree. Well, one more question, I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself that we would never know unless you revealed it to us?

Um, I love to surf. I'm not good at it, but I love surfing. In Detroit? Yeah, exactly. I picked the best place. I love, I love to surf. I'm fortunate I get to spend a little time in Brazil. My husband's Brazilian, and I've taken it up in my, my young age of 42, 43, 43 now. I now like to surf. Good for you.

Yeah. Well, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for your time today, Amy.

Thank you, Doug, for the opportunity, and thank you for doing what you do.

Absolutely. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.