129 - Creating Emotional Experiences: The Client-Centric Journey of Discovery with Liquified Creative's Shawn Noratel

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes.

So let's get started. John Nortel, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the, the founder and creative director of Liquified Creative. Which can, which can be found at liquifiedcreative.com. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Tell us, tell us, Liquified Creative is basically a branding and marketing agency. Tell us a little bit about your backstory. I mean, before we went on, you were telling me that you're a, you're a native Marylander living in the Annapolis area. Tell us, tell us about your journey and how you got to where you are today.

No, definitely a native Marylander. Lived in the Annapolis area pretty much all my entire life. I got into the business I am in based off of working with a number of different ad agencies over the last 30 years. I work with large ad agencies and small ad agencies depending on enormous amount of different industries and verticals that we served over the years. Always been a creative at heart. And also extremely respectful of, you know, data and audiences and really listening to your audience and being able to communicate with people. That's always been my big passion. Every single day I go into the office, the one thing that drives me is solving problems and challenges, which some people tend to veer away from and avoid. I go head head into that, those challenges, and they actually excite me and drive me each day. And also the people I work with and being able to, you know, respond to those people and be able to solve their challenges.

Also, you've been in the business for what, 30 years? Over 30 years?

Yes.

So just what's your quick impression of how technology has changed life in your—

that's a good question. Technology has significantly changed my life and also the industry itself. I went into the industry thinking I was going to be an illustrator and graphic designer and quickly got into the digital realm because you had to. That was how things were going to change. Things quickly escalated from print to digital to now, you know, artificial intelligence and things are thinking for us on a daily basis and making our decisions for us. And sometimes we don't even realize it because we're not paying attention or listening. To what's going on around us.

Talking about AI, I, at first, I was very skeptical about ChatGPT, for example, but then when I started figuring out how to use it, I found it to be one of the most powerful tools I've ever seen. How is it affecting your business?

We find it a great tool. It's not fantastic. You can't ever really remove the human aspect out of Which you do. But it is a tool. It's just like, you know, a carpenter uses a hammer. You can use a hammer, but you need the rest of the tools to get the job done, and you need to know how to use that tool.

Exactly correct.

You know, like you said, it's a great asset to have. However, it's limited up to so many years and decades of what's available for that data to be able to pull those solutions from.

Right. I've used it for tasks that I could do myself, But it can do it some— if I give it the right prompts, it can do the task so much faster. But garbage in, garbage out, and you've got to closely read what it produces to make sure that it comports with accuracy and what you know to be the truth.

Oh, absolutely.

But I think that, I think that, I think that as the technology progresses, we're going to see more and more amazing uses of this sort of thing. We're just kind of at the beginning of it, of this whole new revolution. So you said that one of the things that gets you really excited in the morning is getting up and solving problems. What kinds of problems are you confronted with in your business that get you excited and really challenge you?

It could range from my background as a creative director, but also as a business owner, which is somewhat of a unique mix because you're dealing with two different sides of the brain there on a daily basis. You know, my biggest— the thing that I enjoy is solving problems and coming up with solutions and changing the world when it comes to creative and design. Everything and anything you create always has new challenges. It presents new challenges, and it's about refining, refining, refining. When it comes to the business end, there's so many challenges day in and day out, from scheduling to production to even down to different personalities, whether it's your own employees or, you know, strangely enough, even your, even your clients. Um, you know, you have to take all of those different things into consideration. It's, it's a, it's a hodgepodge of, um, solutions that you have to come at and be able to come with a, an answer, or at least what you hope is the right answer, each and every moment. And we know that, you know, the human brain can only handle so many questions and decisions on a daily basis. So like you were saying, ChatGPT is like a great tool to kind of minimize those simple tasks so that you can use your brain for the larger challenges at hand.

How do you, how do you maintain a more of a long-term strategic focus for your company?

That's a good question.

Problems, you can get, you can easily get mired into the weeds. How do you, how do you stand up and look out over the horizon? What's coming?

The nice, the nice thing is, and I learned this from my father who was also a business owner years and years ago, his biggest piece of advice was always hire people who are smarter than you and be willing to allow them to be smarter than you and to listen to them because that will allow you to focus on the larger picture and also allows them to bring new crisp ideas that you may not have ever considered. So that, that is, that is my key component. And I always tell business owners, you know, always hire people who are smarter, that know more than you, and be willing to accept what your limitations are. Because you—

you're—

it's just like a team environment. It's like creating a sports team. You're going to have that great pitcher, you're going to have that great quarterback, you're going to have that great goalie, and you have your great offense and defense. Putting the right people in the right place so that you as the coach can see the next step and see where things need to progress to. And hire people who will be able to align with you, that see your vision, and are willing to make that vision also part of theirs.

So it's not just technical skills and experience that's important. It's people who will actually bring more to the table than you could bring yourself. And absolutely. And also making sure that there's going to be a good mesh because they will share your vision for the future.

Correct.

That, that, that's a, that sounds like a fairly tricky hiring process.

It is, especially with today's climate, because it's difficult just to find people who will do production work, for example.

Right.

You know, it's the, the industry and the economy has changed significantly when it comes to employees ever since the, you know, 2020. And any business owner will tell you that it's, it's, it's a fight, a constant fight to get the right people. But it's also important to be able to be a good listener to be able to find those right people. Because sometimes they may not have the skill set, but they have the drive and the motivation to be transformed. And that's, that's one of the things I look for as an employer.

So you can find somebody who's got the right drive and the right motivation. And they're coachable and teachable. And so you can over— have the time, invest in their, invest in their education and their, and their development and work that way.

Absolutely.

And that, that makes a lot of sense, especially if you can hire, hire, for example, a young person that shows a lot of potential that maybe doesn't know everything he or she needs to know, but you can take the time to listen to them as you said, listen to them, figure out where their strengths are, and said, here's the path that we want you to take. And hopefully they're excited and follow that path and excel and do well.

Absolutely. And even when I go through the hiring process, one of the first things I always tell people is like, what is it that you're not good at? What are your challenges? And I think sometimes when you go through that process with a prospective employee, they're kind of surprised that you would even ask that, right? Because they're, they're showing you, here's what I can do. Why would I talk about what I can't do? And those are the things I want to know. Because it's like, I already know what you can do. What can't you do? What is it that I can help work with you on making you a better professional?

Right?

And impress you? And are you even willing to do it?

Interesting. So what is it, as you think about all this stuff? What is it that you think is unique that you bring to the table that makes Liquified Creatives so successful?

Definitely, that's a great question. The things that make us unique is we are very client-centric. We are, you know, we say that we're a boutique shop. A lot of industry specialists don't want to use the phrase boutique shop because it says, hey, we're smaller. It's not the case. It's that we actually care and we're passionate about what our clients are into. We participate with our clients. We have relation— a relationship with our client. It's a partnership. You are— you're in it together. It's not I'm selling you a car and once that car is gone, I'm going to sell you another car. That's not the case. We're with you on the long— with the long run. One of the things that make us unique is that we're a full-service shop. You know, a lot of ad agencies out there in the industry, they project manage and they'll source out the parts. We don't source out the parts. The people that you work with are the people who are professionals and have worked in the industry. For example, myself, I work with clients direct. I'm a creative director. I'm a creative, you know, that, that makes creativity and design accessible to the client as opposed to behind a curtain somewhere. There's a designer that's working on something and they're not really listening to what you're saying or what, what needs to be done or who your client is. They're not really investigating those things. You're working with someone direct. Um, another person who works direct with our clients is Caitlin Wiggins. She's our director of marketing. She's been in the industry. She's, she's done everything and everything down to, you know, editing videos to directing videos and commercial spots, uh, radio spots, the whole nine yards. She's accessible to a client. So when they ask a question, they're getting a straightforward answer and they're being educated about the process. And this allows us to be able to control the quality of what we're producing for a client, because at the end of the day, advertising, design, branding, all those things are investments for our clients. They're not products. Um, is the way I always tell them is like, you're investing in your future And that investment should have a return. And we care enough to make sure that you have a return and you're getting top-notch quality design branding, and it's intentional. It's not reactive.

In the, in the, so let me reframe the question and ask, what about you, Sean? What is it that you, Sean, that is unique that you bring to the table?

No, definitely. Um, I bring my passion to the table. I bring my passion, you know, as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, um, as an individual who, who loves to give back to the local community. Um, you, you can see, like, when you visit our website, you'll see a number of nonprofits that we work for. There are clients, but we also participate in events, you know, uh, the Anne Arundel Medical Center, Luminous Health, We work very closely with them. We do an event every year called Fish for a Cure. We raise funds, we all get on a boat, we go out and we compete in the tournament. We actually won the tournament one year, surprisingly to us. You know, we had no idea until the scores came in and we were like, wow, we never knew we were, you know, great sports fishermen in the industry. But we were, we— and we were very successful with it. We care about what we do, and that's something that I instill in all my employees, is to be passionate about what you do and to share that passion, because we want to be able to continue to give back to our community. Because if it wasn't for our community, we wouldn't be in business.

I, I, you know, we've talked a little bit about listening. One of the things that strikes me about being a creative director and working in an agency such as Liquefied Creative is that you're— when you're working with a client to develop their branding, their marketing, their advertising, all the design work, it's all about creating an emotional experience for the client's customers or clients. And I'm curious about how you go about figuring that out.

Yeah, that's a great— it's a great question. The way we figure it out, we do sit down, do an enormous discovery process with our clients because we want to listen. And I always tell everyone involved, it's not about what they say, it's what's in between the words that they say. You really have to use some interpretation. And we go through that process. We want to know where they came from, who they are as individual business owners. Who their clients are, really talk about who those clients are. Because in some cases, business owners and companies and corporations don't always have a full grasp as to who their prospective audience is. And it allows us to kind of go through that process and then pick the brains and identify those audience members, the target audience that they're shooting for. And really look at their interests and their trends. Where are they, finding out where they're going, where they eat, with— and, and how are they going to assimilate to that brand itself. Um, you know, you look at Apple, you look at Disney, it's a cult-like mentality. Um, some people say that's, that's a negative word to use, but it truly is. It's like they want to be a part of something. People—

yeah, exactly, yeah, correct.

So we, we go through that process. We, we It's a learning process. You know, we do a lot of reading, a lot of writing, a lot of research on what we do. And, and the thing that we always tell people is don't make any assumptions. You can never make an assumption, right? It's easy to, and it's easy to throw in your personal bias. But we do listen to our clients, and we do listen to their audience.

So when you're listening, I mean, I teach people how to listen to emotions rather than to words. And you just alluded to things that you do. You listen to the words, of course, but mostly you're listening for meta-information that is not conveyed in the words. Would I be correct about that? And then—

That's correct. And we'll actually ask people, well, how does this make you feel?

There you go.

You know, you'll hear the phrase, I see what you're saying. You know, it's just different things that you listen for. It's like, well, no, you're not. You don't see what I'm saying. You're seeing and you're feeling something. And what is it? And convey that to us.

Yeah. Do people ever struggle with answering that question?

Some do. Some people do. They're not used to those questions.

Right. I'm interested in that because I would be— I'd be surprised if there were a lot of people who could really give you accurate answers. Long, long story that I won't go into. But I mean, we— so many people suffer from a condition known as adult normative alexithymia, the inability to be in touch with what they're feeling, because that's culturally— that's a culturally created condition because emotions are considered, you know, weak and vulnerable. And so when we start talking about emotions, people get uncomfortable at that. And I'm just wondering what kind of experience you have when you're talking to your clients? Because obviously what you're trying to do is ultimately create an emotional experience in the audience that attracts them to, to your client.

No, that's a good question. And we do work with a lot of different, um, people and how they relay that. And you're correct, there are individuals that, that, that do find the emotion aspect. So we'll go through exercises of show us, give us an example of You know, we'll, we'll observe how they're dressed, you know, what their, what their body language says to us. And which is, which is really important when you go through that process, because like you're saying, is some people relay and convey those and communicate a lot differently across the board.

Right. So do you ever see disconnect between the client's I mean, we're just talking about dress. That's very interesting to me that you can, you start sensing a disconnect between what they're saying, who they are, what they're saying, and who they really are or what the company really is. And it's the disconnect that's causing the problem for them. Do you see that? Do you see that very often?

We do. We do. And one of the things I always tell clients is that, you know, at the end of the day, you're paying me not to tell you what you want to hear. Might tell you what you don't— sometimes don't want to hear. And we do come across where we'll say, you know, you're conveying that this brand or what your experience is is one thing, but we're identifying a whole nother thing. So let's talk about this and let's talk about it in a safe environment. And no, it's just one-on-one, you know. And is it something that we need to work through? Because there's— there are clients that will convey things that are opposite of the true intent, or, um, you know, it's, it's not really them per se, right? And we will send them in that direction and say, this is really what you, you're saying to us. Correct us if we're wrong, and it's okay to be wrong, uh, because like you say, Edison, how many times did he, you know, try and develop the light bulb? He found a thousand ways not to make the light bulb. He never failed. He found a thousand ways not to do this.

Exactly.

We will go through that process.

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, what I'm saying, I get a sense from you, Sean, that you're a pretty authentic guy and what you see is what you get. And you're really, you're really talking about clients, teaching clients how to be more authentic so that they can relate to their audience in a more emotionally honest way. I think that's, that's what I'm getting from you.

Yes.

And that can be a process because people, As I said, there are a lot of people who, who are shut down emotionally, and the idea of creating emotional connection in a very deliberate way feels awkward, or they might even say it's manipulative when it's not at all. But, but that's their sense because they don't have good experience with emotional development. Right.

And, and then, and the idea is to be clear and concise with what you're conveying.

Right, right. What do you think when you think back on your 30 years of kid I'm curious, what, what can you describe without naming names, of course, but some of the biggest challenges you've had to face and how you overcame them?

Yeah, I mean, some of the challenges that, that we've run into is, like you said, is there are individuals who aren't authentic. They aren't being intentional, or they're being intentional in a wrong way. So it's, it's coming across and identifying who's being intentional, who's who's veering in the wrong direction, who's not being trustworthy, and aligning them, making sure that they align with the vision and, you know, our standards, you know, and really who we are and making sure that they align with us and what their intentionality is. So we— I've run into clients that, you know, went in one direction and that there was truly something else going on behind the scenes. That wasn't right. And you identify it and you unfortunately have to go different ways.

Right. In our Authority Magazine interview, you talked about a situation where you had— you were dealing with somebody who was very disparaging of women. And it sounds to me like that's one of those situations where this— you're not aligned with us. This is unacceptable. We can't do business with you.

Right. And it comes down to It— you should, you should respect everyone and anyone. It doesn't matter who you are, whether you're a male, female, your cultural background, whoever it is. You need to be respectful because at the end of the day, we're being respectful of your time, your needs, and you as an individual and as a business. And it doesn't mesh well. It's— you can't, you can't do business like that, and you don't need to do business like that. You shouldn't do business like that.

And I would suspect that over the last 30 years, you've been blessed to work with people who are in much more alignment with your values and beliefs than not.

Absolutely. And it's taken years to be able to finite and tune that, that, that sensory. Trust me, to the point where I can, I can sense it coming in the door. But we have been truly blessed to be able to work with a number of different clients that align with us. They're intentional about what they do. They're passionate about what they do. And they love what they do. And, you know, I even tell that to my employees, like, the day that you wake up in the morning and you don't love going into work, you need to let me know. Let's figure out, you know, where you need to be, right? Because I want you to be successful.

Right? I think that's a really, that's a really great leadership point. If, if people aren't really excited about what they're doing, then something's wrong. And even the most mundane jobs can still be interesting if they're set up in the right way. And that's the leadership job is to make that all happen. And unfortunately, not many people understand that. They have an expectation that people are going to walk in the door, leave all their baggage, all their emotions at the door, come in and be little clones. You know, fungible items that can be replaced and do their thing. And that doesn't work anymore.

Yeah, it's not realistic.

Not at all. Interesting. Well, one more question for you and I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself, Sean, that we wouldn't know about unless you revealed it to us?

Wow, that's a good question. One thing about me is I love the arts and I'm passionate about the arts. I've got two children who are extremely passionate about the arts. One that I hope becomes a great illustrator. She's fantastic. She's better than— I admit she's better than I am when it comes to drawing. But, you know, I love the arts and I'm truly passionate about it. And I think that everyone— it should be shared with everyone. It should be accessible to everyone. That's one of the big things. And, you know, that— and the humanities, it's like, You know, I think we should be truly spending more time listening to individuals and really getting down to the root of how we can all work together. Because like I said, we're in this big, huge community together and we're all in the same boat. We are truly all in the same boat and we need to figure out how to make the best of it as much as possible for ourselves and future generations.

I could go way off on arts. I'm a jazz violinist myself. And how important arts are to a community, how important arts are in education for a whole bunch of different reasons. And what really frosts me is when people think arts are frivolous, the arts are frivolous, or they're not necessary, they're not STEM, and furthest from the truth. And yeah, so good for you for having that passion and letting it flow through you in both your creative work and in your work in the community, uh, and, and supporting and, and encouraging people to do that, especially with your kids. That's great. Well, thank you so much. It's been a great conversation, Sean. I really appreciate your time.

I appreciate your time too, Doug. I really— it was great, great talking to you. Absolutely.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.