134 - Listening for Success: Business Building of All with Rocally's Tiffany Henderson

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Tiffany Henderson, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are co-founder and CEO of Rokely, which can be found at rokely.com. .com, R-O-C-A-L-L-Y.com. And you're a soon-to-be California lawyer. You took the bar in July and you're waiting for your results next month, right after Thanksgiving. Congratulations.

Thank you so much. It is an interesting time to be just waiting for a big moment in your life, but I'm excited for what's coming up with my business and for the opportunity to be speaking with you today.

Well, you're welcome. So the big question I have in my head, you've got this startup, Rokely, which is a business we can talk about in a minute, but tell us your backstory, that what led you from being an entrepreneur and running a startup to going to law school?

I actually started with the law school journey. I was, it was a lot of divine intervention without getting too much into the divine intervention part. A lot of it was suggestions from the people around me at the time. My undergrad was in political science and communication. So once I started telling people that, they kind of assumed that's my path. And it was really a lot of people in my life who had my best interest, and they suggested going to law school. And Growing up, I'm an only child and a lot of moving around, and I never felt quite at home at a place, but I found myself going to law school in Pepperdine to start, and I just loved California so much, and just the spirit that is here. I'm currently in California. And I think law school really became an opportunity for me to learn to observe the world around me and not just be naive about— it's just a wonderful place, everyone is kind, which is true, but also there is a lot of personal struggles and a lot of unfortunate events that happen. And going through the law program, I realized that I can be an advocate for other people. And as I was going through law school, it became really challenging, just the content itself. And I found myself very exhausted and just bombarded with a lot of reading and a lot of unfortunate events you're having to read about and kind of the mechanical system that it is with the court systems and kind of not feeling the human connection in it as much as I wanted to. And so it especially happened during the pandemic where I saw a lot of businesses unfortunately failing because they didn't have the resources to stay open or the resources that were provided through the banks and such, they weren't able to capture that. And so observing that and kind of living through it is where I came up with the idea of Rokuli and wanting to be a strong advocate for these small businesses and making sure that they have a space where they feel safe and seen and being able to tell their story as well. Because I've realized these small businesses, their owners have such an inspiring story that I want to back up.

So did you— you built Rokuli while you were in law school?

Yes, I did.

You're insane.

It was such a great creative space for me to be able to have the law side, but also it gave me a break from law and to be able to be creative and to be more interactive with the community that I'm in. So I like having a lot of things on my plate at the same time, but it was, it worked out.

And for those of you that are, that are listening, I teach law, and I'm also the chairman of the Board of Trustees of our local law school up here in Central California. And we tell our law students that for every hour of class you have 4 to 5 hours of preparation. So you can imagine trying to build a startup and taking on law school, which I presume you did. You did it in 3 or 4 years.

I did in 4 years.

Not so bad. 4 years is a little easier, a little more time, but still very intense. Well, congratulations. Good job.

Thank you.

So tell us a little bit about Rokhali.

So Rokhali is a platform. It is a search engine, and it is targeted directly towards small businesses. The definition of small businesses we took from the Small Business Administration, which is, I believe, $7.5 million or less in revenue. Annual income or 500 employees or less, I believe. And so within that parameter, it eliminates a lot of the competition that big corporations have kind of taken over other platforms that are similar to, to Rokely. And another thing with Rokely is we don't have ad space, and so we equalize the opportunity for small businesses to be seen without having to worry about big corporations who have the ad money or a mark— a big marketing budget as well as the know-how to advertise. So they don't have to worry about that on that platform, which I think is a good thing for small businesses as I've been talking with them and trying to develop this alongside with them to be able to truly focus on the service that they provide, whether it be personal training or household services such as plumbing or electrician. So it's been a—

How do you— does the project generate revenue?

For now, it is very slow. It is, to me, a passion project. To me, it's not really about making the money. It's more wanting to create a space for these small businesses and making sure that they are seen by the right people without being, you know, on page 10 when they deserve to be on page 1 in their community.

How would you differentiate Rokalee from something like Craigslist?

Um, Craigslist, I feel, maybe it is a my generation thing where I feel a lot of, um, It's not vetted very well. And so Rokaly, we have an algorithm and the development of the platform is in a way that it's very secure and vetted through the onboarding process of these businesses. And so when a consumer goes on and searches a business that they wanted in their area, they are going to be finding businesses that are already vetted. And while Rokaly cannot be held liable, we can't, you know, ensure that everything's going to go perfectly well. I think because of the onboarding process, then in comparison to Craigslist, it's a lot safer.

Good answer. Now you're done with law school. I know that when I completed law school and finished the bar, I didn't know what to do with myself because I had so much free time, right?

Yep. That is exactly how I feel. I wake up and I don't know what to do with myself. Um, and I put my time into Rokuli and, you know, for a couple months there, I really couldn't put the time in that I wanted because of finishing up law school, having a lot of family coming for graduation, and then straight away having to study for the bar. But it's as awkward of a timing that it is while I'm waiting for results, it's been really great to be able to get back into locally and change, um, focus kind of in a way and coming up with new development, which I'm really excited for.

Where are you going? What are you going to do with your law degree and your law license?

So I have been practicing, um, why it's not practicing, I've been in the business law area for about 10 years as a paralegal. And so I've been doing a little bit of litigation, a lot of transactional work for that.

Do you plan on— you plan on having a law practice?

Uh, good question. I ideally would like to go into, uh, in-house corporate just for the stability. Um, litigation is exciting. I'm trying to stay positive. I did it for 22 years.

You do not want to do litigation It—

I feel like so much of it depended on who you worked with, um, the attorney. And I think that's why it really pushed me to go to become a lawyer, to go that route, because I was just frustrated as a paralegal of having to do X amount of work and not being able to fully control the timing of things because it would always have to be reviewed by the lead attorney, and they would sometimes not get to it until last minute, and so you'd have to stay up with them.

So yeah, there are a lot of lawyers that are really good procrastinators. Yeah, I hated that. I hate— when I was a partner in a law firm, I had associates and paralegals who procrastinated. I would give them 6 and 7 week lead times, and that— my deadlines were never met. That's one of the many reasons why I quit the practice of law back in 2000.

Makes sense.

So yeah, so unsolicited advice. In-house counsel, if you can get a nice job like that, that makes a lot of sense, but don't go into litigation.

If I can help it, I don't want to.

Not worth the wear and tear on your psyche. I mean, I became a peacemaker in my mid-career. I went back to school and earned my master's degree in peacemaking and conflict studies.

That's wonderful.

And today, you know, among other things, I'm a mediator and an arbitrator, and I teach people how to de-escalate conflict and stop arguments. So much more fulfilling than my early career as a trial lawyer. And I tried a lot of cases. Yeah, take it from me, I got the white hair to prove it. So what gets you up in the morning, gets you excited?

Well, it starts with a really sunny day. In law school, my friends would joke that I was like a solar system. So being in California is great. I, so I have a dog and so he gets me up and gets me outside and interacting with the community and the people around me. So that really gets me going. I would consider myself an introverted expert. So naturally I'm an introvert, but if I'm surrounded by people, I'm able to do what I need to do. But I wouldn't say it gives me the most naturally energy, but that definitely gets me excited to hear about other people's stories and what gets them going, what makes them excited, and just seeing the connections and realizing, wow, this world really is quite small.

So locally, let's get back to locally for a second. You've got, when I saw the website, it looked like you had, uh, it's locally, it's locally based. So you have, you have a locally for Orange County, and then you picked Southeastern Idaho, which would be Idaho Falls.

Yes.

Maybe Twin Falls, maybe not. That's more in the center of South, South Center, but definitely Idaho Falls is.

Yes.

And Riggins, Idaho. Driggs, Idaho, and all that. Why southeastern Idaho?

Well, my dad grew up in that area. Specifically, he grew up in what's called Chester, Idaho. It was not on a map before Google, and so I grew up visiting that area a lot, and a lot of my family On my dad's side are there, and I wanted a contrast area for my business that is in opposition to the population in Orange County. And so the, the two areas that I picked were really a test to see, okay, what is going to be more successful in populated areas or areas such as in Idaho where there are a lot of mom-and-pop shops that are being replaced with a Walmart or something else. And I remember as an adult having conversations with my aunts and uncles and just people around there of how sad it is that, you know, in their lifetime so much of that area has changed where they could go to the grocery store or ask for a plumber or whatever, just you know, maybe 10 minutes down the street, and/or it would be a neighbor. Whereas today, just because of how the market is and the pricing and all of that, they'll travel 30 minutes to 45 minutes to go to the big convenience store or grocery store, and I just wanted to bring that lifestyle back. And I think in California, there is that trend of kind of going back to buying local and not just with organic foods, but also paying extra money to have better service by someone you can have that interaction with. And it's interesting to see how in California it's seen kind of as a luxury to be able to do that. And in Idaho, it's more of a, we wish we could do that, but we don't even have that option. Because they would rather pay a neighbor, but the neighbor doesn't have that business anymore because they had to go get a job in town to work at a bigger company. And so it's just been really interesting to hear that feedback because it's something that I don't have experience with, having a service myself as of yet, as a, you know, hopefully lawyer in the future. And so it's really interesting seeing that dynamic of people really starting to switch into buying from their neighbors and having services done by their neighbors rather than big corporations, which always— there's going to be a place for that, and they have the power to control prices a little bit more. But I think there is such a great quality of opportunity to be able to buy from your neighbor or have the services done by someone that is in your neighborhood to build your community.

How long has Rokaali been up?

It's been up officially since 2021.

A long time. Now you have data, and if you compare Orange County, California, Southeastern Idaho, Idaho Falls, what are you seeing? What have you learned from that comparison?

It's really hard to tell. It's— so with the counties that I have open in Idaho, they have a very unique culture within itself. And I found when I would go out there for marketing purposes, then because of their own network that they have within their own community already, they don't see a purpose to be on a platform like Brokli. Because they can function within themselves with the networking that they have going on within their communities because it is a small community and very strong Latter-day Saints.

Yes, yeah, I didn't want to say that, but yeah, they have their church connection. Yes, and they network within because the LDS people are really big about networking within their own context.

Yes, so if a new family moves in, then they're already set up with everyone within their neighborhoods for— from babysitters to other services. And so even though I understood that going into that community because I grew up that way as well, it opened my eyes to the reality of, oh wow, like they really are self-sufficient in that way. And I mean, it's a wonderful thing, I think, but it's just for the platform that I'm trying to have, it's hard to get people to sign up because they're kind of like, well, why would I do that when, you know, competitors technically they're free, and Rokhali, we do charge a small amount, but from our research and from our perspective, it's, well, you can use our competitors, but you're also competing with companies that have money, that are bigger, that are this, and you're going to be, you know, maybe on page 5. No one usually searches until page 5, whereas on Roku, we're guaranteeing you almost 100% that you'll be on page 1 when someone searches. And so that's kind of where we justify.

You see a difference between, again, Idaho Falls being sort of the urban hub for that region a difference between acceptance within Idaho Falls, which is growing rapidly— it's one of the fastest-growing cities in the United States— and the outlying rural areas where all the potatoes are being grown?

The Idaho Falls area is definitely growing, becoming more secular, I guess, with businesses that are not of the church community coming in. And so I would think because of that, there would definitely be more businesses that would be interested in something like Rokuli because they're not integrated with the church, let's say, and becoming more of a hub.

Well, I guess you'll just have to see.

We'll have to see.

Exactly. So what is it that's unique about you that you bring to the table for all of this?

What is it about me?

What's unique about you that you bring to the table?

I think, well, I think the big thing is my law— I wouldn't say expertise, but just my experience in it. It provides me an opportunity to be more open with people. Well, I think with the law experience, it provided me with more confidence to talk with people, to be more networkable, I guess, and just being more open with the society. But I've always had a talent, or as a kid, I kind of thought it was a burden where I would be talking to somebody and I'm a very— I was a very reserved child and when I would talk to people, they would take my reserved nature as an opportunity to kind of talk at me. And I would find myself learning way more than necessary about people, and they would kind of divulge their stories and all these things. And growing up, it was kind of too much. To handle at a young age, but having gone through law school and having become an adult and experiencing life a little bit more, I find it such a privilege to be able to have that natural ability that people feel comfortable with and feel that I am open and a safe space for them to be able to share their story and to divulge things that they wouldn't to just anybody. And You know, it is a privilege that they, that I'm able to provide that safe space for them because I think everybody has a story that they want to share and not everyone is willing to listen or appears to be listening. And I think with technology and with everyone being very busy or seemingly busy all the time, it's hard to just have a deep conversation and and interpersonal relationships. So I think just that natural ability that I found myself to have has been a really strong part of myself where I feel like something like this, it makes me really strong and— so connect with people.

I think what you're describing is that you've become a good listener.

I think so, yeah.

And this is, this is something that you just developed naturally out of your own preserved nature. I'm an introvert too. I mean, if you're an introvert, you tend to want to listen and not tend to want to talk, right? Uh, and, and so you just naturally develop this skill. And that's today you're finding post-law school pre-career, law career, and as a young entrepreneur, that listening is a powerful skill to have.

Definitely. It's— I think it's just— it's interesting how when you start to listen more and really not just listen but actively listen, that people share so much more than participate. And not to say that people enjoy hearing themselves, but also I think in the sense of like with your experience of negotiations and mediation, sometimes they're able to resolve their own issues just by talking it through without you really doing much. And that's kind of how I've seen— that's kind of how I've experienced interacting with people, especially in conflict situation, is just letting them speak, ask inspired questions, and be like, hey, like, well, what do you think about this? And then they're able to kind of resolve their own questions or issues. And it's just, to me, it's a really exciting thing to just see that light bulb come up in their mind. And so I, yeah, it's just an interesting process to experience that with people.

Well, you're right. What I teach my students at Pepperdine is de-escalate first, then problem solve. And if you, if you de-escalate people by listening to them, I call it listening others into existence, and there's a specific way that I teach people to do this, that you're right, 90% of the time that they'll solve their own problems and you don't need to do anything else. And the other part of it that what you said is that's important is that most people have never felt deeply listened to. And what you've observed is that when you provide that safe space for people to be heard, they feel safe, they feel emotionally safe. And when they feel safe, they start to share and they start to talk. And that's when you can start learning more about who they are as people and also whatever challenges they're facing that, that perhaps you can serve them with. And that was, that was not a skill that I developed as a lawyer. I'm sorry.

It's that a lot of lawyers do not, do not have that skill even though they listen to people all the time.

Yeah, it took me— I discovered this, the specific skills that I now teach and wrote about in my fourth book, uh, and that I'm well known for. Back in 2005, I'd been out of the practice of law for 5 years and discovered, discovered how to calm an angry person in 90 seconds or less. And that led to my— that led 12 years later to my fourth book. But the secret, what I've observed, is the same thing you have, is that when you take the time to truly listen to somebody, and oftentimes ignoring what they're saying and just paying attention to what their intended meaning is, their unspoken intended meaning, and the emotions underneath that intended meaning, and reflect that information back to people, that's where you get into really powerful powerful listening skills that make a huge difference.

I agree.

Those are the skills that I teach, uh, and I've seen amazing— from prisons to the Congressional Budget Office and everything in between— and seen amazing transformations when people learn how to listen in this deep way. So that's a skill that will serve you well as you move into your into your career.

Thank you. I, I hope so.

So what day did the bar announce? What day is it? The 30th?

The 6th of November.

Oh, it's early. Used to be after Thanksgiving. Well, it's only a 2-day bar exam now. In my day, it was 3 and a half days.

The 2 days was rough enough. I cannot imagine.

Yeah, if you didn't take the professional responsibility exam, you did that after the 3-day.

Okay.

And, uh, essays.

Did you have, um, a computer back then, or was it all handwritten?

You could type. And then those days I typed, so I had both a manual typewriter and an electric typewriter, but no computers or anything like that. And, um, on the very first day, the very first morning of the bar exam, my electric typewriter jammed. So I kept my manual up at the front of the room. I had to switch out typewriters and come back, and it was a moment.

Wow, I can't imagine just like the amount of noise that would be in the room.

Yeah, we wore— everybody wore, um, we had big— oh, and construction earmuffs that we all wore.

Really? Not just the earplugs?

No, no, big, big. So we didn't hear each other. That was pretty interesting.

Wow.

That was, that was a, that was something else. Well, um, interesting. Well, good luck on the bar. I'm sure you'll pass. Um, tell me one more thing. What's one thing about you, Tiffany, that we wouldn't know about unless you revealed it to us?

Um, hmm, what would be like an example? If I were to ask you that, what would be something you would share?

Lots of things I can say. I can say that, uh, 4 generations of my family went to the same schools and had the same teachers and principals. Oh wow. Or I could tell you I'm a jazz violinist and blues violinist. Which you wouldn't know unless I told you.

I don't, I don't feel like I have anything cool like that.

It doesn't have to be cool. Something you— there's something different and unique about you that people wouldn't know about.

Um, so I think my first language is Janglish, which is a mixture of English and Japanese. I grew up in Japan. My mother is Japanese and my father is American. And I went back and forth most of my life with English and Japanese, or between US and Japan. But through my parents' efforts, through going to different schools, and just the investment that, you know, the whole family put in, I can confidently say that I am native, completely native in both English and Japanese. Wow. So I'm Very proud of that.

Do you know what a career plus that is for you?

It is. I was just recently in Japan and spoke to a company. It's a US-based company. He's the legal counsel for in Japan, and he— I asked him, what do you think, looking at my resume and everything, what my strengths are? And the first thing he said was obviously being bilingual. Obviously that's not enough, but that is a huge strength. And so looking at my career going forward, I, I see having to use Japanese is probably where I'm going to really flourish.

So, well, there you go. That's one unique thing that you wouldn't know about you unless you revealed it to us. I didn't know you were— had Japanese ancestry and spoke fluent Japanese. That is and the culture, very few people can talk about. To master the language requires an in-depth knowledge of the culture because Japanese culture and Japanese language are like totally intertwined.

Yes, I'm so glad that you recognize that. I think that concept is just not taught as much or realized where it's you don't fully understand the language without being there and understanding the culture to the extent.

Right. All the different kinds of honorifics and how you address people of different ages and levels and different social strata. I mean, it's very complex.

Yeah.

Unless you understand the culture, you can never understand the language.

The positive to it is looking the way that I do, I don't look traditionally Asian, so I do get away with a lot. Because they don't expect much, same as my father who's very Caucasian looking. So that is kind of a positive.

And all of a sudden you start, out comes this Japanese, beautiful Japanese, and people kind of look at you, so whoa, that's probably fun. Well, Tiffany, thank you so much. It's been a great conversation. We appreciate your time today.

Thank you very much.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.