144 - The Power of Listening: Unlocking Deeper Understanding and Validation with Reason One's Ben Cash

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Ben Cash, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You're the CEO of a company called Reason One, and the website is reasononeinc.com. Welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me.

You have a B Corporation that is now virtual because of the pandemic of some years ago. Tell us a little bit about what Reason One does and how the heck you got the idea of starting a digital agency to serve mainly nonprofits.

Sure. Well, again, thanks for having me on the show today and enjoying the conversation. Looking forward to it. You know, I, I started the business about 23 years ago, really just to support my music habit. I'm being honest. And, you know, I was looking for a creative outlet that was, you know, that would pay better. And I found, you know, calling in digital because much like music, the technique serves the creativity. And I got to solve interesting problems and figure out the technology to to support those ideas. And that's how I approached digital. And that got me a fair direction, you know, a fair way into successful business over the years. But at a certain point, you know, kind of found myself wanting more, or I should say, making more of an impact. And, you know, we'd work with nonprofits and healthcare and a number of types of organizations over the years. And when we actually, I think the culminating moment was a merger that we went through. There was a, it was, I was running an agency in the US. I'd met some colleagues in Canada and we merged our agencies together to sort of have a bigger North American footprint. And we actually had a lot of similar clientele and a lot of that was nonprofits, impact organizations, healthcare, associations, etc. And the challenge of a merger is that when you come together, you have two different competing visions, often two different playbooks, all these different things. And so one of my requirements for the merger was if we're gonna merge, we're gonna have to rebrand and set a new name and a new mission, right? So that our collective team had a new flag to charge towards. And when we looked at our, we didn't, we, you know, there's that sort of balance between dressing for the job you want, but also looking at what your own DNA is, right? And I think for a while we tried to dress for the job we wanted and it just, it just didn't, it didn't feel right, right? It just didn't fit. And, you know, we, then we looked inward and looked at our DNA. What were we already doing that was making an impact? Where did we, get excited to come to work? What was, what was the work that we really relished? And it was the nonprofit work. It was in work when healthcare was working with helping those who do good do better, right? And so around that time, we were also sort of questioning what our own impact was in our industry and larger community in the world. And we were curious about the B Corp movement. And I had an awesome colleague at the time who was like, we should become a B Corp. So all of those things culminated in the rebranding of Reason One and the planting of a new flag of using our business as a force for good, both through the impact we make through the clients that we work with, but also in the things that we invest with, the way they treat our people, the way that we treat the planet. And that was the B Corp path. And so that's, that's kind of how we came to that from a marketing perspective. It makes a lot of sense running a business and focusing in on a vertical, right? And I learned that the hard way because we used to be like a lot of agencies, we were tied to a particular platform, and that was sort of how our leads came in, and we were dependent on that. And if you had a pulse and a budget and you weren't an asshole, excuse my French, you know, we would take you on as a client. But that was really hard as time went on, because in the early days it was like fish jumping in a boat. But as more and more competitors came along, you really had to carve a path and you had to be niche. And so once we decided to plant a flag with healthcare associations and nonprofits, things got a lot more straightforward. It got— became easier to lead, became easier to focus. And really the most important lesson was that we built community because it wasn't just about a marketing, you know, segmenting for marketing and sort of just focusing on this one audience. We realized that we actually were able to align ourselves with our ideal customers, with their industry and understanding the pain points that they were having and then building relationships with others who were focusing in on that community. And it was really less about segmentation and positioning and more about community building. And it was such a, such a wonderful thing to find others who were also passionate about helping those who do good do better. And, you know, we haven't looked back. Every chance we get, every annual planning, every quarterly planning is all about leaning in and, you know, into where we're going. But that's a long answer to your question.

Oh, it's a beautiful answer because, I mean, think of it, 23 years. That means you started this thing back in 2000, dot-com bust. Yeah, that hardly wasn't even going yet. It'd been going for since '93, but barely public. Oh yeah, 4 years. And the whole concept of web design and HTML was, those were foreign words to just about everybody.

Yeah, for sure. It was, you know, there was no— you couldn't YouTube, look on YouTube how to do something, you know. There were no degree programs in it. There was no— it was, you know, and the irony was a lot of the people who were doing it and who I learned from and actually who I hired were musicians because the musicians were creative problem solvers, very self-disciplined, practicing very, you know, like, and, and so, and also financially starving, so, right, had time, had time to, to, to work on it. So, you know, that's, those are the people, the, the, those curious, hardworking people who just figured out how to do it. If you could find a book, great. If you couldn't, you just asked, you called somebody up, hey, how'd you figure this out? Or you just bought the software and you tinkered and you experimented until you got it to work. But like I said, what was different was there were a lot of people doing that, but they were very focused on the technical aspects. And if you realize that technology is a tool to accomplish an instant mean, right? Or means to an end, then you figured out how to use that technology for the end goal rather than just technology for technology's sake.

Right.

I remember back in those days, I mean, it was, I learned quickly that when you're, when in those days you, you had to have 3 disciplines, you had to have graphic design, you had to have content, and you had to have the technical knowledge to put all the graphic design and content into a visually appealing accessible space online. And today, of course, it's much, much easier to do that than it was then. But quite the challenge. So now you've been in this business for 23 years. You're helping good companies do better.

I love that.

Is that your tagline?

Helping those who do good do better. It's been one for a while. We're in the process of sharpening it a bit.

Well, that's a good one. What is it that gets you up in the morning today that gets you really excited?

You know, I mean, our industry is constantly changing. You never want for new things to sink your teeth into, new things to learn, you know, I think the realization for me, even, you know, with, even with AI coming in and just disrupting everything, and especially that like our healthcare clients, they're in like a constant state of disruption and changes to the markets, that human behavior, change management, you know, those are the things that are always gonna be around as long as humans are part of the, people, process, and technology, or the equation, right? There is always a need for getting the right behaviors, figuring out how to change, how to solve the human aspect of that, right? And look, we've been in this business for a long time. We understand the technology, the design, the content, the optimization, the data, and the analytics. Like, those are— we've got people on staff that really love those things. But if we just focused on those things, we'd be a commodity like everybody else., right? Because those things are being outsourced. AI is doing them. There's tools that are replacing the tools of yesterday and of tools of today. So while you have, well, the baseline is to provide those services in a strong integrated way, it's really about helping people map their future, aligning with stakeholders, figuring out the obstacles to change, and being there long-term to help them execute on that change. Right. And that to me is the one constant that will always be there regardless of all the stuff around us that is constantly in change.

It's really interesting that you should say that because as a peacemaker and a person who has studied human conflict deeply and practiced as a mediator and peacemaker for many years, That's what I see too. I see all this froth around us, ChatGPT, whatever it might be. But fundamentally, the human person, the human, our human, in our humanity, we still have the same fundamental behaviors, attitudes, reactions, emotions that we've always had. It's just that they're in the context of a different, in a more technical world than not. But at the end of the day, responding to that humanity that becomes more important than anything else.

For sure.

And I think a lot of people miss that in leadership.

Yeah. There's a, there's a concept I love, sort of a construct. There's a, if you've ever read the book Brave New Work, Aaron Dignan, phenomenal book. But he talks about the difference between complicated and complex.

Yeah.

And complicated is there's an, it's like an engine. There's an ideal state at which, you know, it will operate efficiently. And technology and a lot of things, you can build things and you can create things, uh, in, you know, um, design and technology and content. You can get to a pretty ideal state. But once you insert humans into that model, it becomes complex. It's like the weather. There are so many things influencing you. There's no way to simply solve for it. So you have to accept and operate with that complexity in mind. And I think that's maybe that relates to, you know, that there is no perfect solution. There's no cookie cutter thing that you can apply to everyone. Right? And I think a lot of agencies, a lot of professionals and service organizations, they come with that hammer.

Right?

Everything's right. Right? But if you recognize the difference between complicated and complex, you realize, especially when humans are involved, that you've got to be thoughtful about how you approach things and ask questions and listen and figure out, you know, how to really tailor things.

Exactly. Hence the name of the show, Listening with Leaders. Yeah, I think listening is the foundational skill of all leadership. It's the foundational skill of all relationships. And isn't it interesting that we're never taught how to listen? We know Pick up listening, sort of hearing, but there is no structured curriculum on this. Is these are the different kinds of listening and this is when you use one kind of listening and this is how you go about doing it. And there's another kind of listening and here's why you would want to do that and when you would want to do it. And yet it's foundational and yet it's completely ignored.

Yeah, there's, there's no muscle memory for it. It is, uh, I struggle with it. Constantly. I'm sure you ask the people around me and they would say the same, right? I, you know, it's hard. And I have, look, I've read The Advice Trap. I've read any number of books about listening and asking questions and the great book Leadership is Language by, I think, David Marquette, phenomenal book, you know, talks about share of voice. And, you know, and I read all these books and just, but knowing doesn't translate to doing often, right? That's exactly right. Yeah.

And you can have intellectual knowledge about the importance of listening, but unless you have a set of skills that somebody can teach you that allows you to translate that intellectual knowledge into actual action, it just remains intellectual. That's, and that's, I think maybe that's the gap that I bridge because I teach people, what I teach is I teach people how to ignore the words and listen to the emotions.. And when you do that, it's a different kind of listening. And when you do that, number one, you don't, you never, you never get bored. So you're always focused. Two, you never forget what the words are because all memory is associated with emotion. And three, you have the ability to give somebody a deep gift of validation, what I call listening another person into existence. Yeah. And, and I found this to be an extraordinary skill that really helps people learn how to listen in a very different way. And it's given me great joy because I've, from training murderers in prison to be peacemakers to working at the Congressional Budget Office teaching analysts how to de-escalate members of Congress. I mean, sure, it's crazy. Yeah.

Well, what do you, what do you, I'm just curious because it's something I've, you know, thought about. What, like, for you, what is the definition of empathy?

Empathy is the ability to read, assimilate, interpret, and reflect back the emotional experience of another human being. And there are two kinds of empathy: cognitive empathy and affective empathy. Cognitive empathy is the ability to watch somebody have an emotional experience and put words onto those emotions and then tell people, you are angry, you're frustrated. That's cognitive empathy, which is what I teach. When you develop, when you practice cognitive empathy for a while, usually within a couple of months, then you move into what's known as affective empathy. And in affective empathy, I can watch you and I can feel what you're feeling. And then all I have to do is tell you what I'm feeling because that's what you're feeling. And so I'm relying on my brain's ability to quickly interpret what you're experiencing, and then I can reflect back to you very accurately what you're experiencing.

What am I experiencing, Doug?

Right now you're curious. Oh, Ben, you're really curious and you're kind of excited and you're a little intrigued by all of this.

Yeah, sure.

So once you get it, it's really easy to do it. Yeah, it's extremely powerful. So you've been doing this for, for 23 years. How, what, what's next? What do you, you keep doing it?

Do you, you have, yeah, you know, every, every, I don't know, 5, 10 years I kind of gonna go, you know, gosh, can I do this? Can I ante up again? And, you know, I, I think, or maybe how do I answer that question? Maybe more about just concept of change for me, right? It's, it's, I've sort of had a relationship with over the years, you know, I think early on when I was switching from music to digital, you know, I had this fear of change because my whole identity was wrapped up in being a musician, right? And that prevented me from change for a long time and sort of, sort of feared that loss of identity or loss of success or what have you. And then got into it, realized that was doable. And then, you know, after a number of years realized, especially through the digital industry, sort of had to embrace change. And then I realized that I had, it wasn't just a matter of embracing it and kind of like accepting it. You actually had to create it. And so that was, you know, that was when it was, you know, 5 years ago, did the merger, merged my agency with another agency, set a new vision, etc. You know, and then we went through a pandemic. So it's like we started the merger, oh, there's a pandemic. And then all the stuff that ensued after, right? And went fully remote and just like the amount of change is like, hold on, right? Hold my beer. Right. Yeah. And so, so in that, you know, I've had some really low moments, right? And it's just some, some times when I thought I can't do this anymore. It might be my business partner, you know, like we have just had some really tough conversations on the phone, right? And, but we always pick ourselves up, you know, in the words of Ted Lasso, be a goldfish, right? And, and we just kind of, you know, pick ourselves up and then, and then it's like, as long as we've got a place to go and we got people on board who are excited about where we're going, it's amazing how quickly you can recover. And I think, you know, having a shared reason for your business existing, setting a clear vision, I think those are things, you know, because you have to be moving towards something.

One of the things that I noticed about your business is that you're really big on inclusion and bringing in young people, maybe people who are young people who are disadvantaged, people of color, or just disadvantaged, and working with them. Tell us a little bit about how you manage that.

Sure. Well, our industry has a diversity problem, right? And there are marginalized communities that are not, you know, who are, that our industry traditionally has kept out for a variety of reasons. And, you know, when we became a B Corp, it changed the way that we looked at things, that looked at problems, looked at our industry, our community. And so when we would find, discover something, we had to ask ourselves, how are we gonna show up? How are we gonna, you know, react and try to change? And, you know, I think for us it was during the pandemic and the murder of George Floyd. And, you know, we,, you know, in the moment we're like, how are we gonna show up and, and support this community? And, you know, just the statistics of our industry, we're like, you know, we, we have to help bridge this gap in the technology industry. And so we decided to, to create a scholarship and mentorship program. We're in our third year now of the program and it's, it's, it's, it's been a successful program so far. And it was partly about finding people who were in the technology space looking to, you know, who had, were encountering barriers where they're financial or otherwise. And so we would find those folks both in South Carolina, where are some of our US offices are, and in Ontario, where some of our Canadian offices are, and find those students and support them financially. But also over the course of a year, we would pair them with, you know, rowers, as we call them, our Reason One colleagues, pair them with a rower And we would, you know, support them with whatever journey they want, whether that was looking for a job, navigating the job market, whether that was being a student for the first time, looking for internships, whatever it might be. We were there for the year and then we've maintained relationships after that. And, you know, we're not gonna change the whole industry by any stretch, right? We're just, we're playing in our pond here and making the impact we can, but we hope what we're doing will also have a ripple effect and other agencies will follow suit.

You've had, I would suspect that you've had a really powerful effect on some young lives.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's really amazing. Actually, what is amazing is that, you know, you would think, well, because when, when, when there's ignorance about a problem and you look at the stats and you have, you don't really understand what's behind those numbers. Why is this right? And the biggest eye-opener was just that, was the how much talent was there in the Black community in Canada and the US and that it was the industry barriers that were preventing all this amazing talent from really showing up in the industry. And so we met just some amazing people who were like everybody, right? All humans, we all have our shit that we're dealing with. We all carrying baggage, right? Anybody don't believe social media, right? We all have it. But the things that they were carrying and still achieving, still persevering was amazing. And so that was just the most rewarding thing was getting to meet some of the candidates and also work with some of the mentees, just, you know, humans.

As I was just watching you, I can see how moved you are by this and by the work that you've done. And has that been an experience that's been shared throughout the company?

Yeah, you know, I think, what's the phrase I always love to say, how you do one thing is how you do everything. And I think, you know, in this particular case, the Reason One Mentorship and Scholarship Program there were people who stayed at Reason One who may have otherwise left, right? And we have a lot of turnover in the past few years, right? Who left because of the investments we're making there or because of the work that we do and the types of organizations that we work with or because of the way that we as a B Corp care for our people because of the equity and pay that we, that we create because of so many different things that we, where our values turn into action, turn into the way that we operate, the way that we show up. And I think that has impacted our team. And ironically, we were in a, we had Festive Fridays at work and, you know, on occasion and we'll do like a gratitude moment where everybody kind of shares stories and how they're doing and what they're grateful for and just the vulnerability, the way people feel supported and seen and, you know, it makes Fritz, why I'm excited to It's why I, to your earlier question, it's why I'm still doing this 23 years later. It's because of the people. And if you can create an environment where people are valued and people first, it's amazing the things that they'll, they can achieve and that they'll do for the business and for themselves. And it's anyway, I'm kind of rambling here, but it's—

You're touching on a really important point that I don't think that a lot of leaders get and that it's the importance of having an emotionally psychologically safe place for people to come to.

Yeah.

And it sounds to me like that's what you've created. Yeah. And so, and we know from a Google study that took 10 years that the highest performing teams at Google have psychological and emotional safety.

Yeah.

And teams that don't have that, they don't work, they're dysfunctional. And you've created it probably without thinking about it.

No, it was, it's actually in whatever, if you look at our, like our, one of our like value statements, our like VTO or vision traction organizer, whatever, you know, EO sort of like it. One of our statements is about creating a psychologically safe and inclusive work environment, right? It was written out and it's something we've been working on. But I say all that, like we still have so much to go. We're not perfect. We, you know, I'm sure we, I know we get it wrong on occasion. But it's a journey and, and we've got, you know, we've got as a business, one of the things that we invested in was a VP of people and she's been amazing in helping us set that, making sure that our, we live our values out and that we're following, you know, our actions match our words.

It's so refreshing to hear that you have a VP of people who is not all about compliance. That is there to figure out how do we create an environment where people can thrive?

Yeah.

I mean, compliance is important.

Oh, I mean, look, that's a lawyer, HR hat and vision. They're like, there's a, there's, there's definitely a balancing act there.

And, but still the fact that you've got somebody who is able to figure out how do we create it, how do we comply, but also create an environment that where, where our people feel welcome and safe and like they can, really grow is— that's pretty powerful, and it's unusual. Good job.

Thanks.

One more question, I'll let you go. All right, so you spent your first part of your life studying trombone and playing trombone, so we know about that. But what's one other thing about you, Ben, that we would not know about unless you revealed it to us?

Um, Gosh, I think I'm a— I don't know, I love to whistle. That's kind of random.

You get an opportunity to do that much?

Well, not if my wife has anything to say about it.

That's a good excuse to take the dog out for a walk then, isn't it?

Yeah, 100%. 100%.

All right then. Well, thank you so much for your time today. It was just a wonderful conversation.

All right, thank you, Doug.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.