148 - Creating Positive Change Through Business and the Power of Charitable Giving with OptimumBank's Moishe Gubin

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Moshe Gubin, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the chairman, CEO, and founder of Strawberry Fields Real Estate Investment Trust, amongst, it turns out, many, many other companies. Which can be found at strawberryfieldsreit.com. Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thanks. So let's— you're a really fascinating guy. But before we get into all that stuff, that's so— that I think my audience is going to love, let's just talk a little bit about a backstory. You're a CPA, but tell us, tell us a little bit about your backstory.

Well, I'm born and raised in Queens, New York. I'm still a huge New York sports fan.

My father and mother both have deceased, but we grew up in a low-income household.

I can't say I was the first college graduate. My older brother was the first graduate.

I believe my mother was the second graduate, and I think I'm the third graduate. It's out of order because my mother stopped working because she was raising the kids while my father worked two jobs. My father was a blue-collar laborer. My mother was an ESL teacher.

She taught Korean kids English.

So in fact, my mother ended up learning Korean. Pretty interesting.

Yeah.

And both of my parents were from Jackson Heights, Queens. Got married 1969 and had 3 kids. I'm one of 3 boys. And like I said, born and raised in Queens. I'm an Orthodox Jew. Grew up in the community. My father forced us to go to work real young. I had a paper route when I was 5 years old. My first foray in the workforce. And yeah, fast forward, I'm now 46, live in sunny Florida most of the time, sunny or half the time sunny. And yeah, my work career has been pretty eclectic and exciting. And, you know, I like to tell people that I kind of graduated college or I went to college at the right time where where college forced me at the time in the accounting degree that I, that I was working towards, um, that college, college pushed me into, uh, teaching me relationship marketing, charismatic management, and, and really I was the first semester where computers were forced on, on me to take. So I graduated, graduated college with, uh, with a Bachelor's of Science in accounting, um, and, uh, I went right to work And that's my professional career started in 1997.

And that's where I come from.

And I've only worked for a few people in my career.

Yeah, go on.

I'm sorry.

Mostly today you're working for yourself. You're in the skilled nursing facility or that kind of— I use the term skilled nursing facility, but it's a lot really a lot broader context. It's any kind of assisted living, residential living, or for all kinds of different people who need that kind of housing. And that's the business you're in today. Describe for us a little bit about— I know, did you say you had 18,000 people working for you?

Yeah, well, I'm using it in a broad sense. My, my, under my, under my, my umbrella, I am the CEO and chairman of Strawberry Fields REIT. Strawberry Fields REIT is a healthcare REIT. We're listed on the New York Stock Exchange on the symbol STRW. Our company owns just the real estate, has no influence on the operations.

So, so from our little context of what we're talking about for Strawberry, I have very few employees and we manage over a billion, billion one of real estate.

Our tenants, which I'm associated with, probably 50, 50 to 55% of our tenants. And then, and then, and then the company that I'm associated with that's a tenant also has other business. I don't play an active role.

I'm actually not even a manager of that, of those LLCs.

But collectively, that company, that, that company has the bulk of our employees.

And then outside of that, I have a bank which is on the Nasdaq, stock symbol OPHC. That company has a bunch of employees, and I have other, other, other businesses as well that I'm a partner in. But my core focus is really the healthcare REIT and my, my publicly traded bank that I love so dear.

So, so with all this stuff going on at 46 years old, what gets you up in the morning, gets you really excited?

Oh, so that's really interesting. I mean, you want the truth? I could give you a good story, actually. I mean, like, no, the reality is, is by nature, by nature, I've been—

I'm like a cyborg. By nature, I was created to want to be the best that I can be.

Today, most of my net income that I bring home goes to charity. I would say 80% of my net income goes to charity.

Okay, when you get to where I am— and I'm not saying that to say that I'm a nice guy because I'm not necessarily a nice guy— just the reality is you get towards a certain level of wealth, the money doesn't matter anymore. You, you have your bills paid for, for the most part. Um, and so the actual disposable income that I come— there's also a responsibility as the wealthier guy to take care of your community and take care of your surrounding communities.

And so most of what I what I motive— what's motivating me in the morning is, first of all, I'm responsible to my— I have an equal partner, and we— I call him boss, he calls me boss. And so I, I care about him and his family.

So my responsibility lies there. My responsibility lies with my shareholders, obviously.

But really what gets me up in the morning is, is simply from the same way I was programmed as a little kid, is, Maishi, you got to be the best you can be, whatever that is. Which, by the way, sucks in some regard because I can never stop. I always have to try to keep doing better, like an ant in an ant farm.

I got to keep building and working and, you know, and, and doing what I do.

Um, and so, and, and again, for the result of financial results is a metric to just to see if you're succeeding or not, but that's not really what motivates me.

What motivates me more is really the good that's done with the money that I make, you know, the, like in the nursing homes, the care that we give to the, to the, to the residents. You know, and, and, and, and, and the like.

And that's, and that's really how my— how—

what— I get up in the morning, I'm excited to go, and I, and I start my day with prayer, of course. And then I, and I'm— and I work a good 12-hour clip, you know, 6 days a week, every, you know, every week of the year for the most part.

You don't take any time off for yourself, for your family?

You know what, I don't, I don't— I haven't gotten that bug to be able to enjoy that yet.

You know, when you have young kids those are family trips that aren't vacations.

And, you know, you're responsible, you're nervous about the kids being safe.

And so you're running around amusement parks chasing after kids and doing what you do.

Like, I don't consider those vacations.

I never have.

And so I did that for a big portion of my life. You know, I'm still young. I haven't really— I'm hoping that the twilight years now is when I could start, you know, you know, in Twilight at 46.

I know you can laugh at me, but the point is, is like, I'm hoping that I can now kind of enjoy you know, I'm gonna say rest on the laurels, but kind of enjoy, you know, the freedom that I have as being where I am in life. I don't necessarily really have those, you know, a pull taking me to say, you got to go, you know, take a boat ride in the Greek island. I don't have any of that. I got it.

It doesn't, it doesn't excite me. I still, I still fly, you know, regular class in the back of the plane. You know, I stay in, I stay in Marriott Courtyards.

I'm not like I haven't developed that, you know, that taste for like the Ritz-Carlton and first class and all that. You know, just it's not who I am today, but I hope to become that.

Well, what is it? What is it that's unique about you, Moshe, that has brought you all of this success?

Oh, that's an interesting question. I used to, I used to claim like a couple of rules when I was, when I helped kids, I'd always say, you know, If I was giving you tips to how to succeed as a business person, like, the starting point, first of all, was I'd never said no to an employer. I was always willing to subordinate myself. And in every job that I did, and the— and, and one of the keys that I always would tell kids is that you got to know who you work for. Like, in the corporate chains where you have a manager, if you do great, he'll take the credit. If you do bad, everything gets blamed on you. Like, I've never been programmed to be that guy. I was always, well, Who am I working for? Who's Mr. Q? Mr. Q, I'm working for you. I'm working hard. I'm doing it. And hopefully one day you'll appreciate me and let me move up. And, you know, that's, that's, that's, uh, you know, that's really who I am, you know. I, I, I, I, I, till today, I, I, uh, yeah, we just, we just, we work hard.

At the end of the day, we work hard.

No, you work hard, but I mean, there, there's a lot of people work hard. But it's true. What, what you, what you do is, I mean, and you, you, you're working in the vertical of the nursing home concepts in real estate and also facilities operations and all the different companies that you have a, a little piece, the action, action of. How do you get the vision to see all of that?

Well, again, you know, so first of all, I've also said for years, you know, that it must be from God, obviously, cuz there are people smarter than me.

Right.

As you could tell, you know, you talk to me, I'm not necessarily a box of rocks, but I'm not— I'm not the smartest guy in the world. And there's probably people that work harder than me. Probably not a lot because I work like a mule. But there are plenty of people that work harder than me. So it must be— it must be from God.

You know, it has to be from God.

But I would tell you that back to my first point before, you know, college sort of taught me when— and I know a lot of people say, what do you need college for? You work hard, you're a smart guy, you can make it happen. But college really positioned me that when I looked at the first thing I did, I always looked at how do I make it bigger? So if it's a company that's a manufacturer, right, how do I appeal to more, a bigger audience for the product? Or how do I add more SKUs for the current customer mix will buy more product from me, right? So I always thought in terms of how do I develop my business, whatever business I was in. I started right out of college. I already had an accounting firm. So what did I do? How did, how did I go, go from you know, a 20-year-old kid, okay, that has an accounting degree to go and build up a firm with 500 clients, or in that case. And that was literally like, like, like, I wouldn't say it's easy.

I worked hard.

But what did I do? I just kept pushing. Like, where is there underserved? Where is— what's the sales pitch?

How do I go?

And then once I have it, where do I go from here? So find another accountant. What's your book look like? Let's synergize on the back office and then let's build the firm out. Today I have a firm. We have over $3 million in sales and, and we're certain we have, you know, 15 accountants working for us today.

You got an accounting— you still got an accounting firm? Yeah.

Yeah, of course. And I actually— I'm involved. I mean, in that, in that case, I have a great, great partner. He's actually somebody at one point worked for me and— but he, but he's my real partner and he manages the firm. But I still have an interaction with him daily and we talk about different things. And not, you know, listen, I'm, I'm also— I wouldn't say I'm a dreamer. I'm more, I'm more of a, uh, realist when it comes to like, how do you get from here to there? But it's, it's also simply of— a lot of people get stuck in the weeds in life. And you say, listen, if you could try to figure out how you just take one step back, whether it be that you need to take a day off from work or take a day off from your family and go to a motel somewhere, but take one step back and say, where am I going? Where where's, where's, what's the point of all this? Why am I working so that I could eat a meal so I could go to sleep, so I could go to work so I could eat a meal so I could go to sleep? You're like, what's that whole process all about? Where am I going with this, right? And so some people live for the now, spend their money, and boom, finish, have a nice day, and, and they're happy in some regard, right? And others live for tomorrow and are also happy because they know they're building up for a goal which they might not ever reach, but whatever. But then, you know, there's the middle ground, which is I want both. I want to be able to enjoy my life today, but I want to work for a goal. And you got to reset yourself. So in my case, every one of my businesses, we start from a point of view of, look, what does our organizational chart look like? How do we get from here to there? What are we selling? How are we going to sell it? How do we grow that line? And what do we need for infrastructure to be able to do that? And I push that over and over and over and over and over and year over year. I could tell you today, and I don't use this word like a weird way, but like like I have disciples, okay? It's a strange word to use, but, you know, I've helped out a lot of people. I help out even people I don't like because my point of view is I'll help anyone as long as it doesn't hurt me. And if it does hurt me, I would help my— I would help my friends if it hurt me anyway, right? The ones that aren't my friends, I wouldn't want to hurt myself, but I would certainly help them if it didn't hurt me. And so I always push for everything to get better and better and better and do more and more and more. And then from that, the results, again, when it, when it, when it bleeds down to get to me, the results end up going mostly to charity. So that's kind of how my, how it all, it all comes back to this. And you know what, I'll tell you something. I moved at one point from New York to South Bend, Indiana. And when I moved to South Bend, Indiana, I was working for a corporation and at the time, and I wasn't the happiest guy working in the chain of command the way it was, especially since the owner would call me at night and ask me what I'm doing and how's it going. Because he had more faith in me than the company. And I was in an awkward spot because I'm in the normal corporate chain of command and I have a boss over me, but his boss is the one calling me. And then when I answer him truthfully, he goes back to my boss and says, hey, what are you doing? You know, Moshe did this or that or that. And then that guy would get mad at me. What are you doing telling the boss? I'm like, what do you want me to do? He calls me up. I'm not going to lie to the guy. I got to do what I do. So, so I, I really, um I forgot where I was going with this, but I, I literally, I, I, um, we, we built ourselves up.

We built ourselves up in a way where it was always towards the eye of how do we, how do we do better and how do we, you know, make the most of it. I don't know if I answered your question. I think I did.

Yeah, that's pretty good.

It's pretty good. You're obviously a very high-energy guy.

I'm enthusiastic. I, I Yeah, I was literally never voted to succeed. Like, my whole life everyone would have thought this guy's a screw-up and he's not going anywhere. No, truthfully, that's 100% the case. And I worked— I was always a hard worker. Everyone has always known me to be an honest guy. I've always been trustworthy, been loyal to people, but no one ever thought I would be anything. So like, the fact is I go through my life and I almost can't believe, like, you know, in theory, the power I have or the, or the, you know, the wealth and the ability to do this and that. Like, to me, it's almost unimaginable.

Like, it's, it's—

but it is what it is.

And so I'm, I'm happy and I'm enthusiastic about what I do because of seeing success. I think if I was a failure, I wouldn't feel so great about what I do.

6 years old, you still got a, a long runway ahead of you. What do you, what do you see happening in the next 10 years?

For me personally, I'm hoping that I'm able to turn my life into simply, man, you know, uh, being a chairman of 5, 6 boards and not being in the weeds the way I am today.

And I happen to believe in business anyway. You always have to have succession planning, right? And you always need the hungry person that's wanting to evolve and is thirsty for change if change is needed. Now, some companies are amazing. You don't need to change, but at some point you become obsolete.

So I would like nothing better than if somehow my life turned into a chairman role of a bunch of successful companies and providing vision, you know, being a resource to the company, uh, of course, for, you know, any kind of diligence or any kind of, uh, you know, any kind of, um, um, you know, being a resource to any need that they have in being able to figure out a merger.

Um, maybe do a little consulting, but I don't, I don't, you know, I don't know. But I— that's, that's what I would hope to happen. In reality, you know, I, I find myself sucked into things all the time. Uh, most recently, I mean, you're—

you—

I don't know, you're not a New York guy, but I ended up buying a bankrupt famous soup company called Hale and Hardy, and we revived it. We revived the brand, we made it kosher. We're now already in 400 supermarkets in New York, New York area, New York City, and we're about to open— we're going to be opening up our first few, uh, retail stores, and I'm going into the franchise business. I never did that before, learning something new, and I got sucked into it. So You know, and there's fun that people always go, you know, what's your next challenge? What do you like? I can tell you honestly, it's a funny thing and I'm almost embarrassed because of it. Like, it's like, it's crazy. But like, I remember the first time I wrote a check for like $1 million and I wrote a check and I was like giddy and my hand was shaking and to me it was an exciting event, you know? And I was like, oh my God. And how— and that thrill for me, that was a thrill. And I'm proud of that. And I think about that, you know, that was circa 2007 or so. And now I just closed on a loan— not alone, I just closed on a purchase, uh, in, on, at the end of August in Strawberry. And I myself did the wire for $40 million, and it was a non-event in my life. And it was like, it's like nothing happened. And I said to myself afterwards, what happened? I, I've lost the thrill of life, right? Like, what the heck is going on here? But you know, that's how, that's how it goes.

So I think at the end of the day, I always need to have something to, to, to put my juices, my efforts into, to kind of turn into something, you know. And, and I think that for me, somehow I'm always going to have, whether it be a charity organization, you know, whether it be a soup company, or whether it be, you know, a hedge fund or some other thing where—

I don't know, I don't know where it goes.

I'm wide open as far as, um, right now the time is limited, right? But in 10 years from now, like your question is I would say that in 10 years from now, hopefully, hopefully time clears up by turning into those board positions instead of the active, active spot of a CEO. And then hopefully I could get myself involved with stuff that, that's more, you know, for my entertainment that we could be the best at doing.

That raises another question, which is you obviously have all your fingers in all these different businesses. Tell me how you go about hiring people or associating with people who are gonna do the actual day-to-day operation stuff for you.

How do you do that? That's an interesting, that's an interesting question, but, but really, really it's a boring answer because the evolution of how the company came, right? We started with one little place, and from that one little place, we still have today some of the key people from that one place that have grown with us in our, in our world. And so from the nursing home world, as I've been out of it since, let's say, 2015, Uh, and maybe I have a little bit— I'm, I'm a team player, so obviously if my partner needs me to do something, I'm involved. But reality is I'm not. But, but, but, but we still have— so let's say from the nerf, from the way the, the way the nursing home—

because that was the motorboat that started, that started this whole where everything turned into.

So that, so that starting point, um, we still have some key people. Like I have a girl that I trained when she was a high school student in Momence, Illinois, or Kankakee, Illinois.

And I helped her and I—

and we helped train her. And today she's one of our big managers, corporate managers of the company, has a lot of control, has a bunch of people underneath her. And she's been with us since she's 16. And today she's, you know, I don't know, she's in her 30s and, and she's still, you know, running strong. And that goes the same with, you know, some of our top people. I like— I like promoting from within. So we have a lot of people that have been with us for years.

We've had very little, if any, nepotism. We haven't brought in any real family members.

There are a few here and there, but they're treated probably worse than, you know, an outsider, because we're worried someone's gonna say, well, why is he doing that, you know? And then, and then, and so that's, so that's, so that's for the core business. The same thing with, with Strawberry Fields. Strawberry Fields, I took with me some of my original people from the nursing home world when we left in 2015. And I still have people that are with me for 13 years that are So my top guys are 13-year people. My lowest seniority is probably someone who's—

I would just hire somebody.

But before that, lowest seniority is probably 3 years. So that's core. Then you have the other stuff. So in the other stuff, the general rule is I don't do a deal without there being— and it's similar to Marcus Lemonis. If you ever watched The Profit, some of the things that he says, like people and process and product, Like, I buy into that hook, line, and sinker. I agree with that. You know, you have to have a product to sell.

Without a product to sell, you know, you're, you're, you're a snake oil salesman and nothing to be proud of. You know, you have to have something to sell. And then, and then when it comes to buying a company, you need to have good people there or it doesn't make any sense. And so I find myself in a lot of offerings to get involved with the deal.

And then I say to the people that are bringing me the deal, like, but I don't understand if this other guy walks off, we have no relationship with.

What happens?

You expect me to go there to do this and run this company for you? When I talk to you and you don't know any of the details of your company, how does it make any sense that I should invest with you when you yourself are using outside people? You don't know what the hell's going on. And so, like, it's like, to answer your question, most of the companies— I got my bank, I got a guy I hired. I mean, I brought in all the board members. I didn't know them from before. Strong board. Same thing, strong board at Strawberry. And employment-wise, the people that have been there, we still have a few people from the beginning of time, 24 years ago. But for the most part, my CEO, uh, the president that I hired, he's been with us like 8, 9 years. You know, CFO been with us, you know, 3, 4 years.

Um, and we have a lot of core people that have bought into the program and that have been with us for a bunch of years. And that goes the same with most of the companies that we've invested in, uh, outside of companies that we started from scratch, you know, and And that's really the hardest question to answer. When we start something from scratch, what do we do? And I would tell you that we usually don't start anything from scratch, you know, of saying we don't know anything about this business, let's go plunk some money down and go do it. It's usually somebody that was already in the business that came to us with an idea, and we enriched them with ownership to start with. And, and that's kind of how we've done every deal. We've never really done some random—

even the same thing with the, with the soup company.

That soup company begins with me being in the catering business from when I was a kid. My father made us work when we were young. I was already working like almost 40 hours a week or more. Every minute that I wasn't in school, I was working as busboy, waiter, bar boy, ballroom captain, schlepper, loading trucks, you know, you name it, I was doing it.

Kitchen prep, slicing vegetables, whatever it took. And so I've been an owner of a catering company which also has $25 million in sales. It's not a small company, been around for since 1967 or something, or 19— a long time.

And, and, you know, it was my executive chef there that said, hey, you know, the Soup Company was an amazing soup company. And I ended up getting sucked into soup.

But the, but, but the point is, is because I have my, I have my executive chef who's like a real deal chef. And he's like, Moshe, you know my system. I used to work for Lufthansa. I ran spice chefs. I did this and did that. This is right up my alley.

I could do manufacturing and I make a good product, which is true.

I know his product. He's worked with me 25 years.

And that's how I get sucked into things.

I got it.

I got it. So the, the title of this show is called Listening with Leaders. In a few minutes we've got left, I'm, I'm curious about your, your approach to listening. You obviously have to listen. What's your approach to it?

Well, I mean, I'm, I'm, I've historically never hired yes men.

Okay.

There's a Jewish concept called the chavrusa shaf.

Okay.

Which I don't know if you've ever heard the word chavrusa, which they're study partners. And what the Jewish world believes, that the best way to really learn is when two people face each other basically at a table and you read the text and you try to translate it yourself. It's in a foreign language, you translate it yourself, and then you talk it out. What do you think this means? And when you have two people with diverse, you know, thought processes, you come up with a conclusion that generally is better than when you have one guy and, and, and, and he just does what he does, right? So, so from, from my point of view has always been, I want to, I want to listen to their opinion, I want to beat up their opinion, or I want them to out-argue my opinion. And if they out-argue my opinion, my opinion becomes their opinion. So, so that's the way we've ran for years and years and years. And I, from my, from my side of the world, of the stuff that I do, uh, it's been very effective because there's— everybody knows if you could defend your stance and you could bring, you know, uh, you know, proof or, you know, uh, strength to your argument, Moshe is going to go along with you. And you know what?

And it, and it proves a valuable lesson to, to management because that person themselves becomes stronger in your organization because they feel strong because they brought something that you implemented. And they themselves feel also good because they know that now the boss knows that they're not a dummy and that they are, you know, a candidate potentially to move up in the world.

And from there, uh, you know, sky's the limit because, you know, people move up, you have faith in them, they do a good job in the next spot, they don't have to prove themselves anymore to you. They have to prove themselves in the position they're in. But then as a human being, you already now know this is no dummy.

I have a good guy working for me and we could go and take this and do something with it.

And so that's, that's worked for us really good. I've always had the open door policy. People walk in.

In fact, in my office, it's always been, you know, instead of using intercom system, I scream out somebody's name and the next thing you know, we got a group of people in my office and we're talking out the situation.

Everybody has an ability to add something to it or ask a question and we come up with a solution and we always win. And we joke about in the office because we always win. It's like we don't have a case where we, where we got, oh crap, we took it in the shorts. We always win. And why do we always win? I think partially, obviously from God, because he wants us to succeed. But at the same token, we are— it's not a dictatorship that I just say something and somebody just does it. I mean, people will listen to me if I tell them to do something, but at the same token, they know that if something doesn't, something doesn't seem right or doesn't make sense, that they shouldn't be doing it.

They know that they got to say something to me and we'll act off of it.

And that's, and that's, and that's been, to answer your question, that's been, I think it's been a success for us.

Wow. Excellent. One more question and I'll let you go. What is, what is one thing about you, Moshe, that we wouldn't know about unless you revealed it to us?

Oh, that's a really good question. I mean, I'm pretty wide open. I'm transparent as a human being. Anyone asks me Um, that is a really good question. I get back to you on that.

Um, I don't know. I would probably say to you, I, I, I, I don't know.

I mean, if it's a dumb point, I'll probably tell you that I, uh, I never wanted to go to college. I was making a lot of money, and my mother is the one that convinced me and said, hey, you don't want to work with your hands, you rather work with your head. And so I guess maybe that, but I mean, I don't know, I could probably give you something really juicy if I thought about it, you know.

Well, you wouldn't know that I'm a jazz violinist unless I told you, so there you go.

That's— well, I'm a drummer. I actually was just at— I just married off one of my kids and I got sucked into playing drums. I did a 40-minute set with the band and I actually thought I sucked and everyone was like, you're amazing, you're amazing. I'm like, what's with these people? It's such, you know, just, just, you know, pandering to me. And then I actually heard the— heard it, and I'm like, wow, pretty good. I mean, I haven't played, huh?

So there you go. You're a drummer, you're a musician. I would— no one would ever know that.

Yeah, it's true.

I, I, uh, yeah, I love music, any type of music, and maybe except classical, um, any type of music. I love people, but I think most people know that. I walk up to anybody I don't have a racist bone in my body.

I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't ever—

I mean, I'm—

it starts from stemming from believing everybody's from God, obviously, and doesn't make a difference, you know, what you— who you believe that God is, but it's all the same God whether you believe it's energy or you believe it's Buddha or whatever.

I don't know what other people believe anyway, but whatever it is, it's all the same guy at the end of the day, in my opinion.

And, um, yeah, yeah, I, I, I, I, I love life and I do what I do.

Well, thank you so much for being on the show. You've been a real joy to interview. Yeah, thank you.

I, I didn't expect what you were going to even ask me, so it's great, uh, great to meet you and continued success for you as well.

Thank you.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up, ratings, and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasENoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.