149 - Transforming At-Risk Youth Lives Through Employment and Skills Training with Sama's Wendy Gonzalez

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Wendy Gonzalez, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the CEO of Sama, which can be found at sama.com. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Appreciate being here, Doug.

Absolutely. Well, so let's start off with a little bit of a backstory. Tell us about yourself.

Sure. Well, I would say I'm a— well, I'm a mom, a wife, a cook, a skier, a snowboarder. There's a lot of things that I would describe myself as probably, right? Even a head of a CEO. But yeah, I am— I grew up in the Seattle, Washington area. So I'm the child of immigrants. My father came to the US one of the first kind of international engineers for Boeing. I went to school in the US. I went to school in the area to the University of Washington. So if anybody is listening or watching football right now, our team is doing amazingly well. So I don't want to jinx it, but I'm hopeful we'll be in the national championship. But after that, I joined a consulting firm. So I joined Ernst Young and I spent 10 years there. Through the acquisition or the merger with Capgemini. And after about a decade in consulting, I wanted to get closer to making impact, right? I wanted to like be able to feel like I could sort of affect change, not just consult my clients on it. So I left to the enterprise. So I worked for a couple of public companies in different IT leadership roles, then got the startup bug. So I kind of kept getting smaller and smaller. I was like, well, I think I'll just co-found a company. So did that with, with a close colleague and actually former client of mine. So we built an IoT SaaS startup and then I transitioned over to Sama about 8 years ago.

Tell us about Sama.

So Sama is a really unique company. So we are a social enterprise. I had, and we're a certified B Corp. So that means that we have purpose and profit as part of our business and Yeah, it's interesting you ask, Doug, because how I came about, and I told a very long-winded introduction, but it's kind of what found me here at Sama. So, you know, child of immigrants, my husband's a zero-generation immigrant. We both kind of really felt incredibly lucky to sort of, you know, be where we are at, right? The opportunities that were created for us and our families has been amazing. He's a sales executive. And, you know, we ended up living in the Bay Area. We raised 3 kids and, you know, beat beautiful Los Gatos, and it's like, okay, this is like a bubble. Like, you know, 9 out of 10 cars are like Teslas. Like, right, it's just not like the way the rest of the real world is, and certainly not at all like how we grew up, which was with a lot of hard work and, quite frankly, some luck and some people also mentoring and looking out for us that we were even able to get into the positions that we're in. So as I was, um, you know, in the throes of my startup where it was just so intense, you know, so many hours a week, and we just crossed this like threshold of, of $10 million ARR, right, where we actually had, you know, real revenues. I was like, what are we doing? Like, what am I doing this for? Like, to create this cool software that's just going to make these companies more efficient? And I kind of had a little bit of a, what can we do to show our children, you know, that, you know, they need to be part of the community and kind of be citizens of the world. And, you know, because we were doing like volunteering on the weekends and then, you know, I just kind of had this epiphany where it's like we put so much time and energy into work. Is there a way that we can combine the two? So, so that was kind of discussion I'd had with my, my husband. We had 3 young children and then actually my father passed away unexpectedly. So it happened, you know, suddenly. And at that point in time, I was like, what am I waiting for? Like, why, why would I not, you know, start to do something that I think is more meaningful? So, yeah, so I left that. I left that startup and I joined a nonprofit. So Sama is a nonprofit at the time. And I joined it because I felt like it really encompassed all of the values that I held and that we've been trying to teach our kids as a family, which is really that you got to level the playing field. If you want to see action in the world, then you need to take the purposeful steps to affect that change, which for Sama is the purposeful hiring of women and youth in underserved communities so they can sustainably move themselves out of poverty by creating jobs jobs and experience in the digital economy. So yeah, I did a whole like kind of, I wouldn't exactly say it's a 180 because a lot of my experience in technology and consulting kind of was the exact experience that was needed to run this business. But yeah, it was, it was kind of a bit of an epiphany where I could combine passion for social change and, you know, poverty alleviation with Uh, with technical skills and leadership. Interesting.

I, I, you know, I have a similar path. I, I left the practice of law after 22 years to pick up and got my master's degree in peacemaking and conflict studies and became a peacemaker. And then in 2010, with my colleague Laurel Kaufer, we founded Prison of Peace, and we've been working in prisons all over California training lifers and long-term inmates how to be peacemakers and mediators to stop prison violence.

That's amazing.

Same thing.

I love it.

Well, you know, that's so great. That's the— I mean, that's something that I think a lot of people miss. I think a lot of people chase the dollars and they wonder why they don't have any meaning in their life.

I think, I think that's— yeah, well, I mean, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, um, Doug, but yeah, I mean, I think that's exactly right. It was kind of like we were sitting there going, you know, wow, we're really working hard for, for this. And then it was— it didn't feel as meaningful. And when you start to sort of integrate, well, what are the things you're trying to do for your family? And for me, it was all about, okay, well, how do I kind of show our kids that, you know, when you leave a place better than you found it, how do you sort of demonstrate those different values? And it was like, well, okay, wait a second. Here's this company that, you know, believes that talent is distributed equally, but opportunity is not. And so Sama means equal in Sanskrit. And that's what we do is we level the playing field by purposely hiring not on the basis of job experience and on, you know, your college degree. But the whole idea is, is that people in underserved communities have the greatest barriers to employment, just kind of like recidivism, right? So it's really difficult. And it's like you have this perpetuating cycle. What happens if you're just this really smart, you know, kid, young person, right? You're, you know, you happen to not have won the birth lottery of growing up in Los Gatos, California, but are in a slum. You're, you're, you're great. You have so much talent and capacity, but you simply lack the opportunity to do that because you can't afford to go to college. You don't have the network, and it's really difficult to get a job if you have no experience and no degree. And so it was this idea of, of providing digital upskilling, and it really conveyed to that point how the sort of values that, that we really wanted to, to, to see in our community and act upon could be, could be done, you know, in a, in a, in a global fashion. And, and to basically be able to also kind of show our kids that like, hey, when we say these things, we walk the walk, which is, which is, uh, you know, acting on this. So yeah, that was a big reason why— well, that is the primary reason why I, I joined. And, uh, yeah, it's been, it's been a really fun run. Social enterprise is really different, um, than, uh, regular business. But yeah, it's been an amazing ride so far.

Tell us a little bit more about Sama. You're hiring at-risk youth and people from disadvantaged backgrounds. And what exactly are you doing with them?

So we, we are an AI data company. So our, our goal and how we really got started was we want to, you know, if jobs are scarce, in many parts of the world. So a lot of our work is in Kenya and Uganda, and, you know, getting a job is difficult, right? Because there's a scarcity of them. But through the digital economy, right, jobs that, you know, are going to be from other parts of the world, people could actually gain employment. And the digital economy is where the, you know, a huge amount of jobs is going to be created in the future. So it was really around this idea that how can we provide, you know, skills for the jobs of the future and then provide the, you know, go beyond training and actually have full-time employment benefits, etc., because not only can you put dollars in people's pockets when you pay at a living wage, it allows people to move into safe housing, have medical insurance, have, you know, vacation days, sick leave, and all those other things that provide security for people to develop skills. But they get the job experience. So that way, you know, the ability to then go and get another job, right? So we're a bridge employer and another job and another job is much easier when you actually have that experience. So that, that has been our, our thesis in that we, we are certified B Corp. We do a copious amount of data collection. And that's what we've seen is that, you know, through getting not just, you know, employment, you're not only getting income in your pocket, you're actually getting the skills necessary to either go back to having a enough money to go back to school or to go to a higher paying job.

Um, and, uh, so you're working with, you're working with young people in Africa, other places, or just Africa?

Um, Africa. We, we did in our past, we'd run programs in the U.S., um, as well in different areas that, that had economic, uh, challenges that was more focused on, um, kind of the gig economy, um, because it was, uh, that, that's, that's what we focused our U.S. programs on, um, in East Africa, it's all around full-time employment in the formal economy. So, um, the— there is roughly in Sub-Saharan Africa, um, it's pretty, it's pretty, pretty staggering numbers, but 86% of, uh, the working population works in the informal economy in Sub-Saharan Africa. That's 7 out of 8 people, right? Informal economy is doing day labor, you know, at a construction site. It's like making snacks and selling them. It's selling secondhand clothes, you know, at a local, you know, you know, kind of flea market as an example. And the challenge there is that, you know, one is average income is less than $2 a day, which is below the World Bank, you know, World Bank standard for poverty. But beyond that, you know, you don't work, you get sick, you're not earning any income that day. And the ability to then parlay that into a career is is pretty difficult. So that was our concept, was formal employment. So you go into the office, you're doing digital work, you're building technology skills. You may stay in technology, you may go and do something else, but you are building all these skills that are not just technical skills but also soft skills, right? Professionalism, coming to the office, communication, you know, conflict resolution, things of that nature.

And so you've got a— you're based in, in You got office, an office in Uganda?

Uh, 2 offices in Uganda, um, 2 offices in Kenya. Uh, we also have offices in Montreal. Uh, I'm based here in the Bay Area. We're virtual in the Bay Area, but we used to have an office, um, uh, locations in Costa Rica. So we have, um, a whole team because of, it's a software platform. And basically where this all started was around, um, human judgment. So as you can imagine from a mission standpoint, We're hiring and we're not hiring with expecting people to have, you know, degrees and previous working skills. So we started with human judgment, which was everything from like scanning business cards to doing, you know, like basic data enrichment for companies. And then it transitioned. And this is, this is where I came in, transitioned to artificial intelligence. So we started working with companies like Microsoft to build, to provide the structured data that, you know, like the Xbox is built on because, you know, in the olden days of computer vision, you know, you don't want to see like a chair and think it's a human. You need to be able to have like clear, like you need to be able to structure data for the AI to be able to, you know, recognize patterns, learn and be effective. So that's what we've transitioned into and we have a pretty pretty interesting pathway, which is we became a profitable nonprofit. And then we knew we needed to basically build and invest more in the technology because this work is not just a human in the loop, but it really needs technology because there's so much data that's out there. And we incorporated— transitioned to for-profit. But in doing so, one, we immediately became a B Corp. So we became the first AI data company to be certified Benefit Corporation. And on top of that, our nonprofit that we spun out of is our majority owner. So the idea was, okay, you know, if we do well and this business is able to create value, then the greatest beneficiary of all is our nonprofit that then has a mission to start other businesses that give work, that help create employment in underserved communities.

That's amazing. How— and how's it working out?

It's been, it's been quite a ride. So yeah, we went through the venture funding route. We have, you know, built out engineering teams. We've, we've got thousands of people, you know, working for us right now in East Africa. And it's been, it's been an incredible ride, but one that's pretty tough. Like having a triple bottom line means that the way you make decisions what you need to do to grow your business. Everything needs to be aligned and integrated, but it may not be the logical thing to do. Like when inflation went high and inflation and like, for example, COVID really affects people at the bottom of the pyramid, right? You can't come to work. You— those, those— that income is something that your family is depending on. And inflation increases can make a huge difference for, for, for, for individuals. Is counterintuitive, but we've had to do, you know, twice a year pay increases, which are counterintuitive to the bottom line of the business, right? Where it's like, okay, this is like, you know, really decision we need to make, but we have an objective, which is to pay a living wage. Right. And so we're sort of sitting outside of market, you know, if you will, or above market for where we are paying. It's part of our social mission. Now, all of that lends itself to really strong retention rates. And so our, our resources stay with us longer. That means they're more qualified at the type of work that they do. You know, it leads to a whole bunch of things that, that I think are really exciting about social enterprise. Very hard. But you have to find a way that it— those longer-term investments really integrate to your business plan and that you know, you can create value. It just sometimes may be, I want to say counter to like short-term financial objectives, but that's where sometimes the rub comes in. But it leads for a very interesting workday.

You must have some really amazing stories of people that have come into the company that have been transformed.

Oh, incredible stories. Like, you know, I was just, I was just in Nairobi and I met this young woman who was selling secondhand clothes to make ends meet. She, she heard word of mouth about our company. She joined, she became an associate. She had enough money to go back to school. She brought her sister into the, you know, her— she said, hey, you know, why don't you go check it out? Her sister came in, went through the training, passed, joined. They, through their income, built their parents a home. Upcountry. So their retired parents now have a place to live. They're paying for the school fees of, you know, their siblings and nieces and nephews. I met another young man who grew up in the slums and he joined our company. He went back, he got his degree. So this— the income— and we also have a scholarship program and things like that. But the income and experience allowed him to go back to school. And now he is teaching STEM courses at his local high school. School in the slums. So there's just like, it's really amazing. And I, I think that's, that's the whole goal is to basically, you know, create financial independence and build an ecosystem. So that's kind of our motto, which is give work, not aid.

Yeah, sometimes I, I always ask my guests what gets them up in the morning and gets them excited, and it's stories like that.

Oh yeah, that's, that's, that's exactly right. It's like, okay, we're working on like the coolest technology in the world, you know, like self-driving cars, surgical robots, like, you know, virtual fitting rooms, all these things that are very cool related to, you know, artificial intelligence. And we're working to make the technology better, more effective, less bias-free, to have a human in the loop supporting the validation of that, those AI models are working. And we're changing one life at a time. So it's like, all right, that's pretty cool. Like, something I could get, something I could get excited about.

Absolutely. So what is it, what is it that's unique about you that you bring to the table, do you think? That makes all this work?

Yeah, gosh. Well, aside from what kind of drew me here, so I guess I'll talk a little bit about sort of how this relates to me personally and then, and then sort of professionally. But yeah, from a personal standpoint, it was being the beneficiary as, as a kid, right, growing up in, in Seattle of the opportunity my dad had for work, right? Like, it created the opportunity for every, you know, for my brothers and I to, you know, without him being able to do that, we, you know, he worked many jobs to get his degree and like, you know, got here and allowed us the opportunity to have access to, you know, good schools. We got to go to university and we're all doing just great. Just great now, right? So I think it was that sort of, you know, value of recognizing how important that opportunity is. And a lot of people just don't get that opportunity. And if you have the ability to affect change, you know, we owe that, right, to our community, to the world. So that was what personally was very inspiring for me because it's about financial independence. It's not about telling people what to do or where to spend. It's about giving the tools, right, and the opportunity in a very purposeful fashion to create your own destiny and to, you know, recognize that we live in a global economy. Now, on the professional side, I was delighted that I had a skill set that was actually really relevant to this, which is most of my career has been on digital and technical transformation, right? So how do you take disruptive technologies and help enterprises transform their businesses. So back in the olden days, it was like ERP systems, you know, things like that. Like, was that I first cut my teeth on. And then, you know, it was around data analytics, and then it became big data, federated data systems, then it became, you know, Internet of Things. And so this, you know, progression of how do you leverage technology to transform the way you work is kind of been in my DNA. And, and for this kind of work, you need to not just be a pure software engineer and understand, you know, everything about the technology. But our core basis, including our mission, is the human in the loop, that you need the human in the loop to help build the CI, to help validate it. And so having the combination of technology or software and services was actually a benefit in this case, whereas usually people kind of go down one path or the other, but we truly, we truly are sort of a technology-enabled solution or service. Can't do the work purely with humans. And, and we believe that the best pathway towards developing AI is not to ignore the human in the loop, like pretend it doesn't exist and that we're in the singularity and you can automate it out, but actually to embrace it and to optimize the human loop. You know, bring, bring more value out of your data and more value out of the human in the loop, which I think especially with generative AI and everything else is actually critical to validate things are transparent and working as you expect.

It is. And, and I mean, I study human emotions, uh, in the neuroscience of emotions amongst many other things. And that's one thing that AI will never be able to replicate. And all decision-making all human decision-making is emotional. There's no such thing as rationality at the neuroscientific level. So keeping the humans in the loop is really important because otherwise AIs will, will never be able— they, they can be great assistants, but will never, they'll never create anything really new because they've gotta work on past data. So, and where do you get that spark of genius but through our emotional intuitive processes that spontaneously occur in the human brain, which I don't— that will never get replicated.

I am— I, I think that exactly where, where roles and jobs may change, you know, I think there'll be more curation, there'll be more focus on creativity in those combinations. And I think that's why you see like everybody who talks about AI or companies who are deploying it or talking about it like it's a copilot. Well, I think that's an— that's, that's because, you know, there, there should be this and I, I think we're gonna see, you know, we've seen this through regulation, right? So there's the EU AI policy. The Biden administration just, you know, delivered an executive order like last week, Thursday or Wednesday. And I think it's around not only do you have to have transparency in how the AI is being built and particularly for sensitive areas like financial lending, right? We've all heard the stories of like the disastrous like Amazon recruiting engine that used inference to determine that women could not be software engineers because there just wasn't enough of a population, right? I mean, companies have gotten a lot smarter since then, right? Like there's There's, there's much, I think, better, you know, protections in place. But that point of like, hey, you're never going to think of every scenario. You need to have transparency in how you build this to understand where the data provenance, like where your data has come from, how it's being structured, knowing that it's been validated for, for sensitive things like financial lending, policing, surveillance, you name it. But, but then, you know, beyond that, you know, beyond that, that that there's sort of a certification or some sort of external body that's actually, you know, checking on it because some of these applications are so large and pervasive. Like, you know, when has self-regulation really ever worked like for any industry? So at some point in time, I think there's going to be a lot of really interesting changes. And that's, that's another thing that I like about this job is that like, I think that the whole goal is to create like I really believe in diversity. We're all like, you know, part of our experiences. Graham, you know, you have a law degree. You— we're all kind of part of— it's difficult to separate yourself completely from your work and how you contribute as leaders. So I like to surround myself with, one, people that are smarter than me. That's very important. But two, people with diverse backgrounds, whether it be gender, race, ethnicity, experience as well, because the more you do so, you're gonna get different points of view. And I think AI is kind of the same way, right? If you've got the same type of people that are kind of in a garage, let's say, like in Silicon Valley, thinking up what the world's most, you know, pervasive technology will be, and there's not any diversity included in that supply chain, where do you think you're gonna end up, right?

Like, exactly, exactly correct. So you said a couple of things that got my interest. One, one of the things you're doing with with the young people that you're bringing into your business is you're teaching them professional skills like communication and conflict management, things like that. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Yeah, so it's really interesting. Yeah, it's really interesting because like if you think about like the, you know, in the informal economy, whatever people might be doing, the skills to work in the formal economy are going to be, well, it's a different environment. You know, you have to show up from 9 to 5, right? You've got to show up to work. You've got to be on time. You've got to check in. You have performance reviews. You need to be able to get coaching. You know, you— our companies are these really amazing, you know, enterprises that are relying on us to deliver mission-critical applications. So the expectation of both performance and coaching and results has got to be there too. Right? It's not just like, hey, you know, come in, we'll train you. And like, hey, there's this job that pays. It's like, actually, no, we want you to build skills. And you, at the end of the day, it is, it is a business, right? We have to deliver something that's valuable. And so part of that is, of course, the technical skills of like getting on the computer. And, you know, we have a chapter on mousing and like, you know, like how to manage a computer and like digital literacy skill sets. Of course, in much more advanced things like how do you interpret 3D LiDAR data, right? And infrared data and all these other things, unstructured data that we work with. But, you know, when you're talking about, hey, what is working well, what's not working well, you know, what is the coaching, what is the performance? Oh gosh, I missed, you know, this deadline. Things like those all require communication skills. And we do these surveys for people because we, we track positive outcomes. Right, which is, you know, hey, if you leave, like, if you leave to a higher paying job, like, that's a good thing. That's like, that's like a win for us, right? So it's in the win column. We do these, these surveys between what are the skills that kind of helped you get there, as well as we do some research. We have an impact M&E team that also does research that says in the areas we work within, if people go back into the local economy, what, you know, what skill sets are required. And so we found in that intersection, professionalism, you know, issue resolution, conflict management being a big component, like the number one soft skills. And then of course the technical skills of, you know, being really familiar with data and with the computer, uh, because most, like, something like over half of the people stay in ICT.

What's so interesting to me is some— I run into so many IT people who shy away from the professional skills, the interpersonal skills.

They're afraid—

it's like they're afraid of them. And I think it's great that you're putting in a training component that is rounding out your people so that not only do they have the hard technical skills, but they also have the, the personal skills so they can talk to each other. They can listen. That's what this is all about, listening with leaders. So they can listen, they can have disagreements, but not— and, and come and still work through their their challenges in a civilized, respectful way. It's really powerful.

Exactly. It's a huge thing. And actually, if you take a look at like, well, we work in these regions, but we, they have like, you know, kind of like what do employers care about most surveys. And we have a bunch of data there as well. And yeah, people, employers care that you can communicate effectively, courteously, professionally. It's an important part, very important part of what, what, you know, an employee does.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we see a lot of lip service given to it here in the United States, but very few companies actually spend the time to invest in the specific kind of training that's going to move the needle. So it sounds like you guys have found some good training stuff that is effective.

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it is effective. And I mean, it is a unique situation too. So like we also do financial literacy courses. There you go. 99% of our people, it's the first time they've had a bank account. So we have a bunch of stuff that kind of spans the gamut that may, may not like look like it's part of the traditional training path, but it is all part of, you know, this, the social mission, which includes like, hey, you know, got like money in your pocket and vacation days and benefits. All right. Like savings and plans and, you know, sort of how do you think about this to basically transition from thinking about what each day looks like to, to really a career, right?

That's kind of having a horizon out over the, having a horizon out there far enough that you got to be thinking and planning it and thinking ahead.

That's exactly right. Yeah.

All right. One more, one more question, Wendy, and I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself other than you're a skier and a snowboarder? I'm a level 3 certified ski instructor. You should come down skiing with me.

That's amazing.

What's one thing?

I'm not that good, but I love it.

Yeah, I did that for a long time. Had a lot of fun. What's— I still ski. I ski when I'm— our local resort is China Peak, which is right in central California. It's just on the, to the west of Mammoth by about 50 miles on the, on the west side of the Sierra. So it's about 40 miles from here. I go and try to ski 2 days a week. So one of the reasons why I live here.

Oh man, good for you. See, I'm, I'm jealous. I, you know, you gotta drive all the way to Tahoe. That's maybe that's part of, part of my little known fact. Yeah. So before, you know, working remote was like a thing, you know, during, during COVID many years ago when we were getting ready to, you know, we had our first child and we're like, okay, do we buy in San Francisco because we were living in the city? What do we do? We actually took this leap of faith with our 2-day-old baby and we moved to Lake Tahoe. So we moved to Truckee so that I could do kind of what you do on a regular basis. And so Yeah, we used to put up like 35, 40 days a year skiing, which is like a season, which is amazing. And my old boss at that time is amazing. He'd be like, it's like Friday afternoon. He's like, it sounds windy. Are you on a chairlift? I'm like, yes, I am. You know what the routine is on Friday afternoons. Yeah, we ended up having 2 of our 3 kids there. So all little kids hanging out in a winter wonderland. So the idea of going back to that sounds amazing, but eventually with work, it was just too difficult to not be in the, you know, the heart of it all right back in the Valley. So we moved back. But that is one little known fact that and probably aside from skiing, which is a huge family pastime, the next pastime is wine.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, a lot.

And good stuff.

And good stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In my, in my former days as a trial lawyer, I represented growers and mintners. And it would be so cool.

Oh, amazing.

Yeah. And I mediate a bunch of those cases too. And it's so fun to walk into a mediation and they've got these bottles with no labels and they're doing a wine tasting. And the, the, the, the, the vintners always want to pay for the Volkswagen price. And the growers are always saying, no, you paid, you're paying the Cadillac price and you got a Cadillac wine. Vintner says, this wine sucks because your grapes suck.

That is a pretty difficult one to get around, right? It's like, how exactly, you know, manage that?

Oh, it comes down to dollars and cents, and they work out a deal with my help, and, you know, and they're a little tipsy when they walk out.

That's amazing.

That's part of my, in my life as a mediator, that's part of what I do.

Love it.

Love it. Much for your time this afternoon, Wendy. It's been a Been a real pleasure interviewing with you.

Great. Well, thank you so much, Doug. Appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity. Absolutely.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnoll.com.

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