150 - Exploring the Transformative Power of Active Listening and Safe Spaces for Men with REUP Mens Movement's Tim Brown

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Tim Brown, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the founder of an organization called Re-Up Men's Movement, and the website is re-upmensmovement.com. I'm sorry, re-upmen.com. Welcome to the show.

Thank you, it's an honor to be here.

Thanks. Well, tell me a little bit about yourself, your backstory.

Well, I'm a, I'm a Kentucky native, uh, grew up in the western part of Kentucky. Um, I'm— my, my dad was a, a, uh, small and large animal veterinarian, and Um, I had a brother and a sister. We grew up, uh, in a kind of a working-class situation. And, um, I went on and I was very heavily involved in athletics and, um, went on and played some, some, uh, college football. And back in the day when I guess a guy like me didn't take as much talent, I guess back then some 40 years ago. But, uh, uh, then I've been out in the— I went out into the business world at a very young age and, uh, ran a very successful clothing operation, um, that was a retail operation, had multiple locations. And, um, unfortunately, there was a gentleman involved who was not the most honest gentleman in the world and, uh, kind of snookered the rest of us. And we wound up having to get out of that deal, turned into a really, really unfortunate situation, and, uh, lost everything I had. And, uh, had to basically start, start life as a young married man, um, in my late 20s., you know, very deep hole that I had to dig myself out of, um, and, uh, was very fortunate to be able to do that. And, uh, and then about 15 years ago, uh, founded this organization, um, as I— oh, let me back up. Been married now— in 2 weeks it'll be— I'll be married 39 years. Um, I have, I have 2, uh, sons 38 and 35, uh, 2 daughter-in-laws, 4 amazing grandkids, and, uh, just absolutely enjoying that state season of life. Um, well, then 15 years ago I started this organization called Re-Up Men's Movement. We now, um, have partnered and worked with thousands of men across the country and Uh, actually are in the process of launching in 2024 into, um, an international market over in Australia, going to be partnering with some organizations over there. And, uh, so we and I basically founded this ministry organization, ministry movement— it gets called a lot of different things, um— from listening So, um, that's something we'll— I'm sure we'll dive into that.

Uh, so are you still in the business world, or do you— are you putting full-time into, into your organization?

Uh, I pretty much spend most of my time with this organization. I still— my, my youngest son, uh, I— back in 2012, I started my own, uh, clothing company after working for a corporate company for almost 20 years. I started my own, uh, company, and, uh, back in 2013, my son, youngest son, started working with me in it. And now he and another gentleman have taken it over. I turned it over to them, and I still, um, I still piddle with it a little bit. They still want my help occasionally and my advice and my counsel. And, uh, I actually have just a very, very small handful of clients, 20 or 25 guys that I've dealt with for long periods of time. They just become really good friends. And so, um, I, I still, um, have that relationship a little bit with them, but 90% of my time is spent with this organization now.

So it, it— and, and you've been doing it for 15 years, so obviously the— you're finding meaning in life by the work that you're doing now.

No doubt. No doubt.

It's, uh, there are a lot of people who are in business and they get more mature and maybe they're getting towards retirement and they, they're not happy because they, they don't find meaning in their lives. They don't find that serve, they don't find a way to serve others in a way that's meaningful. Tell me how you, you, um, achieve that success? Because that's obviously what's happening with you right now.

Well, as I mentioned earlier, this, this whole, um, movement kind of started from listening. I, you know, what I did was I dealt with gentlemen, uh, that were very successful, uh, that had platforms and influence, uh, they were professional men, a lot of them owned their own company, CEOs of companies, Uh, just a, a broad range of, of very successful men. Uh, dealt with them in a one-on-one situation. I called on them in their office or home, um, and sold them custom-made clothing— suits, uh, sport coats, shirts— all back when guys used to dress up a lot more than they do now, right? But, uh, and so I was very fortunate to really be around a lot of of, uh, men that had, had had worldly success, been, uh, very financially, um, positioned, um, you know, all the, all the material things in the world. I mean, I, I was kind— I kind of dealt with the who's who, I guess, in a lot of different communities. And so, but what was interesting was, as I was doing that, I started to, to develop this relationship with these men. And they would— I just found in this one-on-one setting, a lot of these men apparently didn't have a lot of friendships, uh, didn't have a lot of, um, really meaningful connection in their life. And apparently I had a sign on my forehead that said, tell me all your problems., and I would spend an hour, hour and a half in a guy's office, and 80% of that time I would just sit there and listen as we would deal with clothing for a few minutes. And then I became almost a therapist. I would just sit there and listen to these guys just dump all the stuff in their life, you know, that they, they, their, you know, their, their wife, and, and they didn't have a good relationship with their wife, their kids You know, they had a very, uh, um, you know, unfortunate relationship with a lot of— with their kids. They didn't have a lot of friends. They, they, uh, had, had achieved success but felt unfulfilled and just didn't really know what, what was next and their purpose. And, um, and, and man, I would just— I would get in my car and— or even go home at night and just tell my wife that I just I can't believe these conversations I'm getting in with these gentlemen, and all I'm doing is selling them their clothes. But apparently, uh, there was something about me that was causing them to just feel comfortable enough to tell me all their stuff. And so I really started to see that there was something going on with men overall that that I— that really needed to be addressed because it— I was seeing that there was a direct connection to a lot of the male leadership crisis and issues that we have in our culture today. And, um, and so much of it had to do with men really believing that what they did the things they could accumulate and the people they knew was really who they were. That's where they got their identity. But then they would have all those things happen and they would look up and go, there's got to be something more. And so that's kind of how it all came up, started. And we fast forward 15 years later and we've just seen a lot of, uh, a lot of neat things happen as we've, as we've been able to create an opportunity for men to go about changing some of that.

That is, uh, that's great. I have similar stories that I could tell of, of very successful men who are miserable because they bought into a number of cultural myths that are just— that, that's what they are. They're myths, they're lies. And we've been acculturated in, in some of this stuff for over 4,000 years. And it's highly destructive in terms of psyche and happiness. And because men have been bought into this as what it means to be a man, they succumb to the inevitable despair that arises from these myths.

You know, there's a book that I I use a lot with young men. Uh, I do a lot of, a lot of mentoring, uh, one-on-one type things, group, group, uh, situations as well. Speak a lot, obviously go around the country and speak a lot and do a lot of teaching and, and writing. And so, um, but there's a book that a gentleman wrote years ago, it's very easy read, called The True Measure of a Man. And in that book, I'm not really sure if it's his original statement, or if it's from somebody else, but I think it really epitomizes so much of what we're saying, is that he says in there that men should not fear failure, but what they should fear is spending a majority of their time with their life trying to be successful at things that don't really matter and are not fulfilling.

Absolutely true.

And that is really kind of where we're at, and The unfortunate thing is that has been a generational, uh, thought process, myth, myth, lies, you said there a while ago, that we have bought. And it's, it's reproducible, it's teachable. And for that reason, we— I think we have a lot of young men today that are so confused. They're so— they don't know what, what a man really is. They don't really know what to be, what the North Star is for them to be following, kind of to set up what's really important. Um, all those things. They're— young men are so confused today, and unfortunately the generations older than them are kind of the reason they're confused, right?

No, I, I agree. I mean, I found— I left the practice of law in 2000 to become a peacemaker, and It was the most important. Looking back, it was the best decision I ever made and also the most important decision I ever made. Because once you learn that meaning in life is service to others, everything, everything changes, right? And what was the big cars and the big house and all the money in the world? You know, I was a trial lawyer for 22 years and had a pretty affluent life. That's meaningless. Yeah, and, and I learned, I learned that lesson midlife. Many men never learn that lesson.

Oh no, I, you know, I'm— I tell the story of, of, uh, a gentleman in actually the community that I actually live in, um, very prominent gentleman. This happened about 10 years ago. He's, he's now between 75 and 80, but at the time he was in his mid to late '60s. And, um, he and I developed a friendship through the clothing, um, vocation that I was involved in. And but he— one, one Saturday morning, he came by my office and we got together, and he, he, um, he just talked about how jealous he was of me, uh, because I had all the things in life that he didn't that, that were important And he got to a point where he got very emotional and he started to weep and cry to a point that I— all I knew to do was I just got out of my chair, went over and just held him in my arms and let him cry. And after 30, 45 minutes or so, we released, and the front of my shirt that I had on was just soaking wet where he had cried and wept and wept. And I remember after he left my office, I remember just, just kind of having this conversation that whatever, whatever it took for me not to be that guy when I'm that age, I was willing to do whatever. But then also whatever it took to help as many other men not be that guy, then I was, I was, I was in on that too, because That guy was who, from on the surface, in our community, most people would want to be him. But as I held him in my arms, he was the most, one of the most miserable people in the, in the community we lived in. And so, uh, that, that was a, that was a real key moment in really kind of taking me to the, on this journey that, that I've been on the last, uh, 15 or so years, trying to really help men, um, learn that what they do, what they have, and who they know is not who they are, and really help them understand their true identity. Of course, we, we, we kind of go about it from a spiritual aspect too, um, and to really help them understand who they really are in that regard, uh, which is such a, such a, a game changer when they can learn that.

Um, so I was going to say, it's so interesting that you worked with these very successful, wealthy men who have bought into the career trajectory. I have too, but I've also worked with men serving life sentences in maximum security prisons for the last 15 years, going into prison and teaching them how to be peacemakers and mediators to stop prison violence.

Yeah.

And I see the same effect there.

No doubt.

As I see with men on the outside, you take these people who are castaways, they're, they were violent criminals, violent offenders, and teach them a mindset and a set of skills, and they, they become, they become real human beings, and they abhor violence.

Yeah.

And seek peace. Yeah. And recognize they may never get out of prison, but they can be a, a powerful influence in their prison communities.

Well, one, one of the resources that I developed, wrote many years ago, that's gotten used by thousands and thousands of men has been used in a prison setting because it really focuses on helping them learn their identity, right? Which, that, that's their problem as well. I mean, the opposite end of the spectrum is the, is that other guy that I sat in the office with. But then what you've experienced and guys that are incarcerated and been through a lot of that Most of that's an identity issue as well. And, uh, so it's just a matter of, of really, um, helping whatever it is— that man in that office or that man sitting in a, in a jail cell or prison— to— if they can really understand their identity of who they really are, then, then it just changes the, the trajectory of their life, right?

So what is it these days that gets you up in the morning, gets you really excited?

Um, the opportunity to impact as many young men as possible, uh, because I've got 4 grandkids that if, if, if that doesn't happen, I'm scared to death of what their future looks like. And so I want to try to influence as many men who can then turn around and influence younger men And then I want to obviously try to influence younger men too. So that's really what gets me up and every day and, and the passion that I really have comes from— I know what it can do because that's what happened in my life. And so if I can contribute something to that that will impact my 4 grandkids' future, then I'm gonna— I'll go, I'll work as many hours as I need to in a day to help make that happen.

You've alluded to this a little bit before. I want to flesh it out a little more. What is it that you think is unique about you, Tim, that you bring to the table that makes the work that you do so meaningful and successful for others?

Well, I think it's, you know, I wrote a book a few years ago, um, that kind of just tells my life story and very vulnerable, very transparent. Um, it's been used to do some cool things with. Um, and I, I think that what most people have said, and I'm just kind of this guy, um, even outside the book, I think I'm just a guy that, um, I just lay it— I just tell it like it is. I'm very transparent. Um, I'll tell you all my junk because that's— without my junk, I wouldn't be who I am today.

Yes.

And without my junk, I'm not really going to really get your attention. And, and again, from a spiritual aspect, um, you know, people talk when they read my book all the time, they're like, man, you were such a train wreck and you had all this, this. And, and I'm like, yeah, but I had to really be— tell all that and be honest and transparent to really prove who, who God is to me, because he's the one that changed me. And without me sharing all that junk of mine, it, it wouldn't mean anything for me just to tell you that, well, I, I got my life changed. No, when you read my story, you're like, oh my gosh. And so I, I think, I think that maybe if, if you, if we want to zero in on one thing, is, is that I just I just kind of— I'm not afraid to tell you all my stuff, my junk, because that's— without it, I couldn't be who I am today. And, and I think that allows other men to really open up and, and do the same thing and be— talk about things and be transparent. You know, that's one of the things that's really missing today. I mean, you know, data shows that only 5— really only about 5% of men really say they have a best friend. And, uh, you know, we've just become very isolated. Uh, yeah, that's been species.

Yeah, that's, that's goes, that goes back to this myth that was perpetuated back in the first quarter of the 20th century, this idea of the rugged individualist and a total myth.

Yeah.

When you think about it, you think of the rugged individualist winning the West and having a weapon and all that stuff. But what people don't realize is that the West was populated by small communities. And there were things called barn raisings, you know, where an entire community would come from miles around, you know, a dozen miles in any direction to help a young family raise a barn. You couldn't raise a barn by yourself.

No, no.

But there was no such thing as rugged individualism. Everybody relied on everybody else for their survival.

Exactly.

And, and that got lost in translation for overtly political reasons, as it turns out. Because, because, you know, the myth of the rugged individualist just felt appealing to people, especially between the Depression and World War II and feeling like, you know, the Victorian idea of the stiff upper lip, keep a stiff upper lip and all of that stuff. All of that got indoctrinated into generations of young men and has created a huge huge amount of trouble.

And probably that's one of the reasons we call our— we, we have a— we have numerous things we do, but one of the things we do is, is we create a group setting for guys to step into every week, um, and we call it a fire team. And that's a military term, right, obviously, for men in a foxhole fighting a battle together. And just, you just got to have that. You got to have— you can't fight— you can't be in a foxhole with by yourself, and you got to have You got to have other band of brothers in there with you and help you fight the battle to— and, you know, when you take a hit, help nurse you back. And so— and the cool thing is, is our tenure right now of our groups of men, if we get men started and they use our structures and resources that we've created, our tenure is about 9 years right now. These guys stay together. Develop these unbelievable friendships, brotherhood, doing life together. And they just— those guys become their guys. I mean, they're not going to— I mean, if when life gets tough, those are the guys that they can call on and those guys are going to be there. I mean, they're there and they're going to stay as long as it takes and do what it takes and help each other fight this battle. And That, that's what real men do. And so we've just— and it's not— and we're not trying to, you know, portray this rugged battle scene, but you got to have guys in there with you, uh, to, to lean on. And, um, and we, and we find guys respond to that, and that's what they're really looking for. They need— they're so desperate for it.

So, uh, we alluded earlier about listening, and of course this show is called Listening with Leaders. Tell me about the importance of listening and, and the teaching that you provide in the training and the coaching?

Well, init— as I said earlier, I mean, listening is how this whole thing started. I mean, I— as I would listen to these men, it— I realized that it's what was going on. But, um, and then, and then with what we try to do with the men, um, by, by putting him in— put them in the— into these groups of men, um, it allows them to push the distractions away for an hour and a half every week come together where they can really listen, where they can talk and listen and encourage, uh, they can learn. Um, you know, we, we provide structure and, and content for them when they meet, and so they can again just kind of push away all the distractions, be in a very, um, intentional setting We believe that more intentional time with, with fewer people has a greater impact. And so, um, we think, guys, you know, listening in that context is, is so important because, um, some guys will tell us it's the only time each week that they feel like they're really able to really zero in and truly listen because They're— all the distractions are away from them, and they're with these guys early in the morning or in an evening or whatever, but most of them are early in the morning, and they're, they're focused, they're listening, they're engaged, they're connected, and there's just such great value in that.

Do you have any specific listening skills that you teach people, or are you just creating a safe space where people—

no, not really, just creating that safe space. And, um, And then I believe when you do that, the organic part of the listening just kind of takes on its own life there.

I teach people how to listen to emotions rather than to words. And when you do that, you create instant intimacy, instant trust, instant loyalty. You literally learn how to listen other people into existence so that people feel deeply validated and heard. And I developed this skill as a mediator as a way to calm down angry people. And my fourth book, De-Escalate: How to Calm an Angry Person in 90 Seconds or Less, is all about that. So I actually teach listening as a leadership skill.

Um, I would, I would, if you asked me to list 10 leadership skills, listening would definitely be— I would all— I would— it'd be one, it'd be one of the first ones I'd put on there.

In fact, there was just an article yesterday about Steve Ballmer, and he said the number one skill that I had to develop as a the Microsoft leader was learning how to listen.

Yeah.

And it's a skill that a lot of people think they know how to do, but they really don't because it's not just that we have ears and we can hear the words and understand what people are saying. It's how we interpret what we're seeing and hearing and then what we do with that information. Yeah. That differentiates a good listener from a not so good listener., and it becomes, that becomes, that becomes the powerful skill. So for example, I've trained, uh, the type of men we're talking about. I, I, they've regained intimacy in their marriages and they've, they've been estranged from their children and now have beautiful relationship with their children because they learned how to listen to everybody.

Yeah.

Uh, in the work, you don't have to convince me the value of it.

Yeah. I think you're, but I, yeah, I'd be interested to know more about, about the, the skill. I mean, It's interesting inside these, inside these groups of men, if we just give men the opportunity and we have a structure for them to do that where they can actually tell their story, because most men have never had that opportunity to maybe let go of, of that their father was a, was an alcoholic or something, and how it's scarred and wounded them or whatever. And so, but what's interesting is the people that— the other guys in the group, as they listen to that story, it just totally changes the way they view that person from that point on. And, and then as they interact with that person and do life with that person, so much— so many things make sense because they've listened really well to the emotion that came out of this guy's story and makeup and, you know, background. And, and, and again, the listening is such a key part of that.

That's right. That's great. I mean, it sounds— I mean, I don't know anything about your process, but what you're describing with these fire teams is a process we teach, uh, in the prisons called, um, talking circles, where we'll have a group of— we work with both men in both men and women's prisons, but obviously more with men because there are more men in prison than women. But we will teach them how to listen in a circle. And, uh, we— it's pretty rigorous the way we have it set up so it can be duplicated and replicated. But it sounds like the same thing. It becomes a very safe space where 90% of your time you're spent listening and reflecting. Yeah, a small percentage of your time where you're actually talking.

Yeah, well, and essentially we have so many guys that have stepped into some of these teams where, you know, their, their job every day is to talk and lead, and they get— they talk about how, man, I love this setting because I don't feel like I have to talk and lead, I can just listen. And so, yeah, it's a— it It's really neat to see that play out in so many of these guys' lives.

So the work that you do with ReUp Men, or let me see, I want to make sure I get it right. Yeah, ReUp Men, the ReUp Men's Movement at reupmen.com. You do this within the context of congregations, church congregations. Did I—

Well, we do have a model where we will partner with a church and work with the men in their congregation. But then we, you know, we worked with companies, we've worked with all the— and just individual men that they're like, you know, I want to— I just want to put together a group of guys and create this space. And, you know, a lot of these men that I did business with, it's really interesting how many of those guys, when I would tell them about it, they were like, man, that's what I've been looking for. And so a lot of those guys just inside their their company or workplace or whatever, or they've just reached out to some of their buddies and started this. And we, we help them get started with the whole— we provide all the structure, the process, the resources, the content, everything they need. And so, but we do have a church partnership model too, where we will obviously work with a church inside their congregation to develop, because that's, that's a, that's a place where men are at. Right. But then, you know, we, we do this with— we do this at a younger level with like college athletic teams, high school athletic teams. So if you've got a football team, you know, we'll help you create these groups with your team and use this context and all this as well. And because if we, if we can help a lot of these young guys learn their identity before they step out into the world, they'll make fewer mistakes. And if we can help them show them the value of listening, having relationships with other guys, having guys in their foxhole, being, being transparent, willing to talk about things, have some accountability. That's another big thing we create inside these groups is for men to have accountability with each other.. And, uh, so again, we feel like the younger generation, if we can do that with them as well before they get out in the world and get tainted a little bit, then we can, we can really make some progress.

So if, if, if people in the audience are interested in learning more about this work and maybe get starting a fire team or learning how to do that, they contact you through the website?

Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Reupmen.com. So that's reupmen.com. Upman.com. Okay, great. One more question, I'll let you go, Tim. What's one thing about yourself that we wouldn't know about unless you revealed it to us?

Wow, wow, wow, wow. What would that be?

Um, um, It'd be something fun. It'd be something different.

I, um, I'm, uh, you know, I, I, I work with a lot of men, but when it comes to some of the things that men traditionally, you know, we're supposed to be tough, we're supposed to be all this, that, uh, I'm, I'm scared of heights and will not get on the roof of our house. So like, we just put our Christmas lights up a few weeks ago, and my wife has to get up on our roof and do that because I'm such a chicken.

Good for you. I would, I would say not a chicken, a very wise man.

So I work with men, but yet I have to have my wife get on the roof to put lights on or clean the gutters out because I'm not about to get up there.

Well, you know your limitations. So there we go. That's not fear. That's just— that's why I'm not—

I'm not a big risk taker. I used to laugh and say when we would go water skiing or whatever, or scuba diving, I sit in the boat and just wave at everybody and let them do all the risk taking.

So, well, this has been a really wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you for the opportunity.

Absolutely. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media, just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up, ratings, and Your reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.