151 - Embracing Empathy: A Revolutionary Approach to Leadership and Marketing with Jess Cervellon

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Jesse Veyon, welcome to Listening with Leaders. Really happy to have you on the show the day after Christmas 2023. Welcome.

Thank you. Thank you. When you said 2023, I was like, it's 2024. But I'm like, not yet.

I'm like, so ready from today. Yeah.

I'm like ready to get to the next moment.

Well, well, tell us a little bit about your backstory, who you are, what you do.

Yeah. So I'm Jess Servan. I previously, I just recently have departed, but I previously was the VP of customer experience for a company called Feastables. And for anybody who doesn't know what Feastables is, It is an influencer brand. The influencer is MrBeast. And if you don't know who MrBeast is, if you have children or grandchildren, I'm sure they would know. But yes, that is my previous position. And now today I am a fractional chief marketing officer, chief experience officer, and helping many e-commerce brands bring to life their marketing, and their experience plans.

How'd you, how'd you get into this work?

Oh man, that is a long story. I, so funny enough, I actually went to, I went to college for art. So I went to art school in San Francisco. And so when, went to art school, decided I wanted nothing to do with that once I graduated. And I started working in a bank, doing like customer service, like a lot of like personal banking stuff. And then from there, like in several different like kind of customer service types of roles until I got into like my first startup. And then at my first startup, I was leading customer experience for like a travel tech fintech company and then like went to several other B2B startups after that. And then I know I'm giving the TL;DR here, but that's okay. It's good.

It's all good. Yeah.

Well, then, like, but then that's all, like, very focused on, like, B2B. So business to business. And then one day I got recruited on LinkedIn to work at Feastables, the company I just recently left, and got my first, like, spot in being able to do e-commerce. And that was like, that's like kind of like where I've, like, wanted my career to go, but I never had anybody take a risk on me. And so that's like the TL;DR version. I was a creative mind thinker and then a lot of customer service, a lot of like customer experience, marketing types of positions. And then here I am today and now I'm a nerd about customer journeys. It's really fun.

So what kind of— when you're thinking about customer journeys, what kinds of things do you think about? What kind of process do you go through to to help your help clients or the people you're working for make that important?

Yeah. So I think the biggest, like, the basics of everything in customer experience and thinking about customer journeys is like, what is the emotional aspect that your consumer is going to feel about your brand or your service, right? And so what portion of the journey are they in? So if you're in a pre-purchase, right, which is like awareness, like, how do they know about your services? How do they know about your brand? What type of emotionality is that customer feeling or wanting it to like insert being a need. And then, you know, it goes into like pre-purchase and then it like in the purchasing journey. So like what's happening on your website, what's happening on your product offering on the shelves in a retail store, like what, like that's— this is all like contingent on the user experience in a website or the packaging that a customer is looking at about your product. And like, again, it's like, what are the emotional aspects that a consumer is feeling when like wanting to even pick up your product or utilize your service? And then, and then in the third portion of that is the post-purchase piece of it. So it's like, all right, I've already purchased the service or I've already purchased the product. Now how do I hook up my consumer in like an emotional aspect of like wanting to get them to continue to come back from a brand loyalty perspective? Or if you're a software company, like how do I continuously put out new features that are actually like helping the customers or like meeting a need of the customer? So basically the basics of everything that I think about and like the customer journey is like, what's the emotionality that my consumer is like feeling feeling in this piece of the journey, and how do we speak to that?

Wow. So this ties in— this ties into something I saw on your website where you're writing— you're either journaling, you're doing something, a blog or something called Notes from an Empath Leader. Tell me about that. Yeah.

So I started this newsletter. Truthfully, I haven't, like, written in a while, but, like, I think that's what happens sometimes. You get a little writer's block, right? Holiday happened. But I started a newsletter called Notes from an Empath Leader. So, you know, as much as I think about, like, the consumer and the emotionality of your consumer, whether it's like a service or a product, I'm at, at the forefront of everything that I do. I'm a leader, I'm a people leader, and I really want to help not only serve, you know, the company that I'm working for, but anybody that I'm leading that's under me, any of my direct reports or a peer, a mentee, like whatever it is. So I began this newsletter, Notes from an Empath Leader, and it talks a lot about like, okay, the consumer or consumer behavior from like an empathetic lens, right, of like that emotionality. Personality, but it also talks a lot about as you are building a startup, like, who are the people that are coming in? Like, what are those people, like, what do those people need to learn from you? Like, what, how do you be more of a, like, servant type of leader rather than just a, a, a leader that's focused on always making revenue? Interesting.

Because I teach, I teach empathic skills, empathy skills to leaders. I teach, I teach leaders how to listen to emotions. Rather than to words. And I think empathy is probably the most underutilized leadership skill. Absolutely. And most people have not a clue about what empathy is or how to use it. And those that do get a superpower that is unbelievable. It sounds to me like this is something that you leverage on.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, at the basics of where my career started, right? My career started in like very like customer service, servient types of environment for like a consumer, right? And, and I think in order to even be in those types of positions, I think you have to be an empath. I think you have to be able to like want to talk to, like want to talk to a human, want to relate to a human, want to serve that, that human. Right. And I mean, like I, I said the TL;DR version, but when I went to art school and then I wanted nothing to do with art school, I went into immediately into banking and financial. Aspects of a person's life is like the most sensitive thing in somebody's life, right? Like if somebody is like their account, they come into you and they're like, oh, my account's overdrawn, I can't pay a bill. Like, that's a really like, you know, upsetting story. And like you as an individual, in order to serve that type of customer and like— and I know I'm like saying like the sad stories, but in order for you to say to serve that type of customer, you have to be empathetic to their story. Not only that, if you're like doing any sort of like loan servicing, like you're looking through these people's like financials and like have to kind of you know, be an empathetic person to even like want to serve this type of customer. Right. And so like that's like the basics of like or the basis of how, you know, I got into like my career. Right. And like how like I kind of grew my empathy. But I do what you were saying, Doug, is like I do agree with you that my empathy piece of me as a leader is a superpower of mine because what I have found in my leadership is in like working these multiple different types of careers and companies is that the people that I've encountered that have been either my direct report or a peer, I've created relationships with these individuals that have been lifelong at this point. Like I still, like I said, like, okay, I left Feastables just, you know, within the last month, right? And within a few days, like people that I was like mentoring that weren't even necessarily my direct reports at that company were calling me and they were like, hey, what's your advice on this? And like, how can you like, Can you help me with this thing? Even though I no longer worked at that company, but, and even though it's like, it's a lot about helping people and being empathetic and like, and listening to other individuals, I think that if you're an empathetic person and you're listening, it, you're, you're more likely to not only, it's not really be liked, but to really understand what other people are going through and being able to like then utilize that power to be, to make like strategic business decisions that aren't just all revenue-based and they're based around the people that are helping you build a company or the consumers that you're trying to serve. You're right.

I, but I also think that the, um, the one thing that most people want more than anything else but never get is to be heard at a very deep level. And when we hear them, we validate who they are and we validate their feelings and their experiences. They feel so deeply heard and grateful that they will follow you anywhere. And that, that I think is the secret to all of this, is that you can calm angry people down, you can create instant trust and loyalty, and you can, you can make people feel like they truly matter.

Yeah. And exactly. And I think exactly. So that's what, like, as a leader, right? Like, as just a people leader, despite, like, whatever my career is, you know, whether it's B2B, B2C, it doesn't matter. As a leader, I find enjoying enjoyment out of helping other individuals, listening to other individuals, and being like a pillar of their career and their journey. And I think that that's like— so being an empathetic leader for me as one, as an individual, is like a pillar of who I'm even, you know, it's like it's, it's the, the ethos behind everything that I'm doing. And I agree with you. I wholeheartedly agree with you that I think it's, you know, you find yourself in like these relationships with these individuals that are lifelong, that like continue that like further down the path. Like I have worked in. So one of the B2B companies that I worked for, right, was a health tech company and it was a health tech company. And then I since left that health tech company and then I worked in e-commerce, right? And I had an individual call me up one day and he was like, and he was a direct report for me at this health tech company. And he was like, hey, Jess, like, I'm looking to leave my position. Do you like have any idea of like where I can apply, can you help me with my resume, this and that. And I later on was actually able to get him a position in e-commerce and help him change his career, his entire path. Right. And so like, I think that that's so important about like it's not necessarily about you and like you and what you're doing. It's like it's also how can you help other individuals to catapult them into their next piece like of their career or anything, like, anything that they're dealing with. You know?

Right. Right. Exactly. The meaning of life is service to others. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's more fulfilling. Absolutely. So if you were talking to a young person who is aspiring to be a leader someday, how would you tell them to develop their empathetic skills as a leader?

Yeah. I mean, I know you talk about this a lot, but I think the biggest thing is, is listening. But I think it's not just like, okay, You're not just listening. I'm not just listening to the individual. It's taking yourself out of you, like, you as the listener in your shoes and putting yourself in that other individual's shoes, right? It's really just kind of like trying to put in a box any sort of like selfishness, or like, I don't want to say selfishness. I know that was like ego, ego, right? Like ego is a better way to put it, of like, like taking yourself completely out of that situation and like actually like listening to like what those conversations are, what those individuals are telling you. And I think that there's— and, and, you know, I think it's also— I think it's also like if I know this one piece of knowledge, how can I help this other individual with this piece of knowledge? So like, and what I mean by that is like, okay, let's say you're in a strategic meeting, right? And like you're trying to figure out how to get from A to C, but you got to figure out B first, right? So if you come to the table with your knowledge and the other individual comes to the table with their knowledge, and maybe it's like there are two different paths, like a positive, negative, whatever it is, right? It's like if you have these active listening skills, you can take and like whatever that other person's expertise is and your expertise and come to the table with strategic decision-making, strategic pathways on like how you can get to those decisions. It's just so important to It's not just about ego. It's really just like taking yourself out of like the picture and looking at the overall picture with like the individuals in the, in the room. And then I think second, which is also a play of listening, but I think it's really working on your ability to read the room and read the room in the sense of like, you know, and I don't— and like, I think some people sometimes take that as like a negative statement, but I think it's, it's a positive statement, right? Like if you walk into a room, if I walk into, I don't know, a lecture and I'm really nervous, right? And I'm trying to give this lecture, but I'm really nervous to give it to this audience of like 50, 100 people, right? Find it like, what are the personality traits of those 50 to 100 different people? Or like, what can— what is like an observation that you're seeing about those individuals that can then like help you be able to like give your storytelling back? And I know that it's like a very like high-level thought, but like I think it's just really important to like, again, take your ego out of the, out of the situation and really read the room and read other individuals to be able to like, whether strategic decision-making, talking to a crowd, or just walking into a new job and finding your place, like whatever it is. But like, that skill will get you far in life.

Listening and reading the room. So A lot of people talk about what you're talking about, how to put yourself into another person's position. And they say, so you got to, you know, walk a mile in another person's moccasins or put yourself in another person's shoes. How exactly do you go about doing that? What's your process for getting yourself in a place where you're really experiencing what another person is experiencing?

Yeah, well, I think first and foremost, like, we all have, like, our own individual pathways, right? Like, I didn't have, like, the most straight line of education or career, right? And like some, some individuals do, or maybe it's not even career, it's like life, right? And I think for me, like what I think about is I think about all of my different, all of the different scenarios that I've like encountered in life or all the different types of people that I've encountered in life. And I really try to— it's not, it's not just listening. It's really just like, I don't know. I don't know how to like really describe it because it's again, it's going to go into like putting yourself into their shoes, right? But it's like it's really trying to figure out like how to put yourself into like their line and like understanding like the things that they like another individual brings to the table. Let me elaborate on that a little bit more, but I have to, like, think through it.

I think this is a skill that you've probably developed that you don't even know you have, or that, you know, you have it, but you don't know exactly what it is that you do that allows you to read somebody else. Yeah.

I mean, you're absolutely right. Like, I— because I can— I am a type of individual that I'll, like, walk in a room and I'll see, like, multiple different types of individuals. Right. Right.

So there's some— you see it. You see it immediately. Yeah, you don't even have to think about it.

I can spot an introvert and I can spot an extrovert and I host like a lot of— so maybe it's like, actually, here's a good just storytelling for the audience, right? So I host a lot of events. I host a lot of events and I'll like walk into a room and I'm the host of these events. So I always want to make sure that like individuals have a really good time, right? I make sure that I walk up to every single one of those individuals in the room and make note of the people that are new or leaving or, you know, somebody— if like somebody walked in, I didn't see them walk in. I haven't introduced— I make note of those individuals and I go up to each and every one of them and I'm like, hey, I'm Jess. Thanks for coming this evening. You know, what brings you here? Who are you? Right? I mean, I take— I take a second to make sure that I'm introducing myself and I'm— and I'm capturing at least a piece of their story. So then as I'm like navigating the event for the night, if I see an individual in the corner somewhere where I'm like, oh, you're not really talking to anybody. I know this piece of your story and I know this piece of somebody else's story. Let me introduce you guys so I can make sure that you're like having a good time, but you're also like getting value and like having another conversation.

You're a natural connector.

A natural connector. Yes. Which is really funny because I'm actually an introvert.

Well, yeah, an extrovert. No, I mean, I mean, I'm an introvert too. But the way that I look at introversion is, is I get my energy from inside myself. And if I go into a big crowd, I feel like the energy's being sucked out of me. An extrovert is exactly the opposite. They'll go into a big crowd and that's where they get all their energy. And they can't stand the, they, they have a hard time being alone. So that's the difference. And so, so you, you, you, it's interesting. You're an event organizer and do events, but you don't get, you don't get a supercharge out of it. You just like connecting people.

Oh my God. I get so drained, but I get, I get supercharged out of connecting people. There you go. Exactly. I love connecting individuals. But again, that goes back to like being empathetic. That goes back to being a listener too, is that like, I'm like, okay, I know that Joe Smith maybe runs, I don't know, a software company that could help Carla, who has a brand, you know what I mean? Like, like, I, I like understanding everybody's stories. So, and I think, um, I think that's the landing the plane is understanding everybody's stories. It's not just about listening, but it's like being an active listener to understand somebody's stories.

So it's interesting. The skill, my skill sets are all based on a technique called affect labeling. And basically what I teach people to do is to listen to and reflect emotions. So I would say, hey, Jess, you know, we're having this great conversation. You get really excited when you start thinking about the work that you do and it really makes you happy. And you get a total charge out of everything that you're doing. And you sit there and say, yeah, that's exactly what I feel. And by identifying people's feeling, what they're actually feeling in the moment, and then reflecting it back to them with the you statement, they know that you know who they are and what they are. So they feel very deeply connected. Yeah, yeah.

I think that's a really good way of putting it, and a good skill to like learn. You know, I think the only thing is, is sometimes like you don't necessarily have the opportunity to like— what if— what— like, and this is actually a question for you, like, what if you're somebody who's shyer? And even though you're actively listening, you're taking notes of all these things, but how do you repeat it back to somebody? Like, what if you don't have the confidence to do that?

Oh, well, that's part of the training is learning how to do it. Learning how to develop that confidence. Yeah. And the beauty of it is that people are so grateful that you have actually taken the time to listen to them that it becomes a self-reinforcing practice because you feel so good when you have validated another person's feelings that it just makes you want to keep doing it. Yeah. And so even the shyest people can come outside of their shell and start learning how to listen to people help because it feels so good to do that, to really help people. It's really interesting how that develops.

You know what I was thinking through while you were, like, saying that, right? So, like, in different scenarios is just like a leader, right? Not even like events or friends or situations. I was thinking about, like, where when I'm having one-on-ones with any sort of my direct reports and they, like, tell you, okay, here's this problem that I'm having and repeating it back to them is like that active listening skill, as they say, like, like it's validating that, like, you're hearing them right now.

And you would add one other thing. So supposing you've got a direct report who is stating a problem, you would paraphrase, paraphrase the problem back to them. And I teach, I teach people never to use an I statement, always use a you statement. Don't say, so what I'm hearing you say is— don't do that. Say, oh, so your problem is X. And so I would— so the way I would frame it and the way I teach it would be, so Jess, your problem is X. And you're really frustrated and overwhelmed by all this. And right now you're not feeling very appreciated or supported, and it's kind of pissing you off.

Yeah. See the difference? Yeah, yeah. No, I see the difference. Like, right now in this moment, I'm like, yeah, no, that's actually like— exactly. Doing it.

Yeah. And so, so what happens when, when you, when you engage in this kind of listening practice, which is called reflective listening, not active listening, then, then you are making sure that you are listening to the speaker from the speaker's frame of reference, because the speaker is going to tell you whether or not you're right or wrong. And if you're wrong, you correct. And if you're right, the speaker is going to nod their head and say, yeah, that's exactly right. And then you nailed it.

Yeah. So question for you. Now I've turned the tables.

That's okay. This is a conversation, not an interview. Yeah.

So question for you. So I know that you practiced law, right? And you did mediation and stuff. How do you— so instead of these scenarios about being a leader and these one-on-ones, let's say you have some sort of mediation that you're going through, like two different parties, right? One person is coming to the table with like trying to just like speak through like their lawyer and trying to not to be like emotionally charged, right? In like in the responses. But then the other individual is coming to the table with like emotionally charged like responses. How do you practice that same like frustration skill, I guess, right? Like when like dealing with somebody who's not emotionally charged and somebody who is emotionally charged in like different, in like those legality types of scenarios?

Okay, so you first of all recognize that people display emotions in different ways, but that everybody is emotional. The lawyers are emotional, parties are emotional, everybody's emotional. That's, that's your first step is to recognize that even though they may not be displaying emotion, they are emotional. The second thing that you learn to recognize, and this is what I teach, is that humans have a very limited repertoire of emotional behaviors. I mean, it's really limited, less than 30 different emotional behaviors that manifest. And once you learn the patterns, it's very easy to pick up on what's going on and to reflect back whatever the experiences that people are having. So if it's somebody who's really angry, like they feel like they've had a deep and abiding injustice, then you speak to that. You feel, you feel like you've been treated really unfairly and you've been deeply disrespected and unsupported and you've been invisible and not heard. And it makes you anxious and scared and it terrifies you. And it, but it also really pisses you off. Mm-hmm. And you feel sad and lost and alone. So you just go through all these layers of emotions that everybody experiences. We've all had these experiences. So you just label it.. And they said, finally they sigh and they say, yes. And you do the same thing with the other, everybody. Mm-hmm. And what happens is you deescalate, you literally deescalate their brains in this process. There's some really interesting neuroscience on this, but you literally deescalate their brains. And once they calm down, they almost always are able to solve the problem by themselves. They don't need the mediator anymore. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is really cool.

Yeah. Which is interesting. And do you think that like, that mediation should be done in person via email, or it doesn't matter what channel?

I do these days, most of my mediations are done virtual. But the skill of mediation is a skill that every leader needs to learn. Right. Because every leader confronts conflict. Every leader confronts drama in the workplace of one kind or another. Every leader confronts emotions. And maybe they even confront it at home. And so this is why I consider this the foundation. Skill of life and the superpower of all leadership is learning how to listen to people and validating them. Because once they become validated, they calm down and they solve their own problems, freeing up all your time to go off and do what you need to do as a leader. Go on to the next problem.

Yeah, I think that's like when I feel the most rewarded is when doing that, those types of like mediation work during calm this, right? I've like had many scenarios with like a direct report and they'll come to the table and they're just like freaking out about something. And like my— and, you know, as an executive, I'm like, I'm— my job is to think more high level, but really like the 5-year plan, right? Not really like what's happening month 1, month 2, right? It's like, what's the overall? And so, and I think going through that process of like that conflict and like the emotions, like talking and like validating them, calling out the frustrations and doing exactly what you were saying about the mediation question that I had. I've like recognized a couple of scenarios where I've had individuals who are like, oh my God, like, like if we don't get this software and like it's, it's going to, it's going to make or break us. Like, we have to get this, we have to get this fixed. And then I'm like, okay, so we talk about the frustrations, but then like bringing them back to after that is bringing them to like thinking like more high level about like what the long-term gains are. Right, right. Is like, and then they're like, at the end of it, they're like, oh, okay. Like they've learned a skill in that moment, but you've also calmed their, their frustrations.

That's right. De-escalate first, then problem solve. Mm-hmm. That's what I teach. And that's how it works. Yeah. So what do you think it is that's unique about you that you bring to the table that makes you special and successful?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is that, um, As much as I didn't use my art school degree, I'm a creative thinker. Okay. No, that's just like one of the things. But I think it again, it goes back to empathy. It goes back to empathy for like the consumer, for an individual, and like always thinking about like where the emotionality comes into play for a consumer or a direct report or whoever it is that I'm encountering and understanding that. De-escalating those situations or making— like, if it's a product and a consumer that I'm talking about, like, okay, I know that you want this, this speaks to a need, this speaks to like some sort of emotional response in your, your journey. So here's how we're going to sell this to you, here's how we're going to market this to you. And so like, I always think about like the emotionality of a, of a, a human being in a process to then be able to like either market to them, turn it around, be a good empathetic leader, whatever it is. But it's, it's always putting the people first.

Good for you. Interesting. I don't think I've ever interviewed anybody that talks about emotions the way that you do, where you're looking at the problem from an emotional, from the, from the customer or client's emotional perspective. Yeah. So when you're thinking about awareness in the, you know, the awareness preference choice model, um, of marketing. You know, what is the emotional— you, you have to be thinking, what is the emotional impetus that's causing, um, a customer to search? Yeah, they're trying. Or maybe they're not searching, but what catches their attention that causes them to have an emotional moment that you can then grasp and connect with?

I'll tell you a funny response, and I'll tell you a real response. Okay, one, the funny response is like all the algorithms of our social media, like, know the things that we want before we even really know it. So that's one piece of marketing, right? But like, if you think about it, like, that is a little bit of an emotional response. If I'm like scrolling through my Instagram and I like paintings all the time, I'm gonna advertise to somebody who in my algorithm, like, is maybe an artist or like is looking to start, right? Um, for instance, like, I'm planning I'm planning my wedding right now, right? And now my algorithm is all switched to like wedding stuff because it like feeds into that emotion.

So Instagram, Facebook is feeding you all wedding stuff.

Yeah. No, like straight up, it's so weird, which is a whole other thing that we're not gonna talk about, right? About cookies and privacy. But you know, from traditional marketing measures, right? Like if I'm an individual and I'm searching for something on the, on the internet, or if, you know, like right now I'm trying to solve a need for like looking for wedding details, wedding items, right? So it's like I have, I have an emotional need because I'm trying to like purchase things for, for a particular, for a particular like portion of my life. Right. But then even on like a, like smaller aspect of that, maybe it's like a hydration company. Maybe it's somebody who's like, maybe the customer is somebody who's like looking for alternative methods to hydrating, whether that's that's like running gel packs or, you know, I don't know, Liquid IV, whatever it is, right? So it's like you already have this customer who's like maybe like searching for, for a product that's like a part of like their own, their own needs, right? And so then like from an awareness perspective of like traditional marketing. So if I know that like these particular individuals are going to be searching for this hydrate, like a hydration packet, I want to make sure that like any of my marketing speaks to like what's an us versus them story of like why you should choose us over them. Like that's going to speak to— that's going to speak to the emotionality of like why they would want to choose you, right? Like it's always just thinking about it in like not just an awareness piece, but like how do you even get them to make that purchase? So it's like an awareness piece would be a Google search or Instagram, right? So thinking about like the emotionality of your consumer and like how you can speak to their needs and like really kind of like be their best friend Right. Rather than just being like the product that's like on the screen and then you get them into their website like that's their own particular journey as well. I mean, there is so many different psychological things that I could talk about, about like if you're doing one header and then you want to put in, you know, a sub paragraph about like what your product is and then you want to divert their eyes down the page to like like learning more about your product and then adding it to the cart. Like these are all speaking to the emotionality of the consumer's behavior on your site. Does that make sense? Totally, totally. And then like it's like a whole science, like even goes to post-purchase, like everything. But it's like every aspect that you're doing, everything from copying everything to an image that you put on the site should all be thought of like where your customer is in that journey and like how you can speak to their emotionality of, of them as a customer. Wow.

That's really interesting. Yeah. I think— One more question. Oh, go ahead. I was gonna say—

The last thing— Oh, go ahead.

Go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, no.

Last thing you were gonna say. The last thing I was gonna say is that, you know, at the basis of, like, where I got my career started was all customer service, right? So, like, having conversations and really what customer experience is, is like, it's not just customer service. It's really understanding, like, the consumer behavior. So then if you take take. So if any— there's any marketers, executive marketers that are talking like out there thinking about this, like think about the customer's experience as well as thinking about your marketing, like your traditional marketing campaigns and what it like, how are— how is my— what is my customer going to experience when I'm like trying to get them to buy this product? Exactly.

All right, one more question. Sorry. Yeah. What's one thing about yourself, Jess, that we would never have a clue about? We would know it at all unless you reveal it to us.

Um, I think the biggest thing— I mean, this is like more of looks, right? On the outside, um, I'm wearing like long sleeves right now, but I'm actually heavily tattooed. I have like almost a full body sleeve. And I think that most people— so if you see me on the streets somewhere, right, like you might think like, oh, you're really rough around the edges. But then like in work environments, I'm like not that way. I'm like the most approachable person. I'm always happy, like, you know, I think that's, um, so it has nothing to do with like personality and all these other things. I think it's just interesting of like people have preconceived notions when they see you outside of a workplace, and then when they work with you, they like, they're like, oh wait, no, like you're really smart in this like one area of expertise. Like I would have never guessed it, right? How interesting.

I work in prisons training murderers to be peacemakers. Great. And And of course, they're all tatted up, but they do that for a reason. They do that for a very specific reason, which is to instill fear and intimidate people. Yeah. And, and now I'm seeing more and more young people are using tattoos as a form of personal expression, which is, which is very interesting, which is very, very different than what goes on in the prison environment. So it's very interesting. Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

I know. Now we're, now we're talking about tattoos. But like, I said, I'm 38 now, but I started getting heavily tattooed when I was 26. So like, much late 20s, and it honestly became a form of, like, expression for me. Right, exactly. And just like artistic, artistic expression. And I like— but what's interesting is like now I actually don't want to get any more tattoos. Like, I don't regret not getting— but like, as you get older, you stop— like, you start getting heavily tattooed. Right. Good for you. Yeah.

Well, this has been a great conversation, Jess. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to chat with me and my audience.

I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me, Doug. I appreciate it.

Okay, what did I just do to myself?

Still there, you're still recording.

I'm here. And what happened to Zoom? Oh, it's right— it was over here. Okay, so I got to go over here. Let's see, I don't want to choose an app. There we go, there we go. All right, this is— so there we go.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode episode on social media, just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs Thanks for listening. And we'll see you on the next show.