159 - Building Stronger Connections Through Deep Listening with Trinity Life Sciences' Leslie Orne

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Leslie Oren, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the president and CEO of Trinity Life Sciences, and more importantly, like me, you are a Dartmouth grad. Welcome to the show.

Indeed.

Thanks, Doug.

Really excited to talk to you.

Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your backstory before we—

Yeah, well, you, you already picked up on, on a really important part. So I was really excited to hear that we have a lot of commonalities, but yeah, it's, it's great to meet you. I'm, I'm Leslie Orn. I'm president and CEO here. Um, I was, uh, I'm from a little town in Connecticut called Colchester. So grew up in a small town and people ask, oh, kind of near New York? No, no, no, the other side of the state, the other side of the state. So more the Rhode Island heritage, but grew up there and realized somewhere along the way that I loved science. But at the time I think maybe, maybe didn't really know what that meant. I thought, I think that meant I either had to be a doctor or maybe I could work at the lab bench. But it really wasn't until I was lucky enough to attend Dartmouth College like you where I majored in biology and And did a whole number of other things too. It was really obviously a very formative time to be at Dartmouth and kind of going through a lot of things. But I think I majored first and foremost in sailing. So I was actually a competitive sailor at Dartmouth.

You know, that's another thing we have in common 'cause I was a competitive sailor for a long time.

No kidding.

National champion, Santana 22s here in California, back, well, that had to be back in '78 or '79.

Oh, love it, love it. So yeah, sailing was my first passion there too. I was co-captain of the varsity sailing team, which is actually one of the very few co-ed teams. So I wasn't the best sailor, by the way, but, but definitely managed to have a mark on the team, and that was really what I love to do. We were also the national champions, so go Dartmouth! 2000— there you go, year 2000, we were the women's champions there. So I think the team really— it teaches you how to be part of a team and how to lead and how to follow and how to do all of those important thing. So happy to talk a little bit about that. I also spent a lot of time at the lab bench at Dartmouth, so doing the pipetting thing and, you know, watching very small cells turn into slightly larger cells and realized that there was a lot to science that I really loved and a lot to science that I didn't really love. So, you know, went in thinking I wanted to, you know, find a cure for AIDS or for cancer and came out thinking, well, I really want to stay in touch with that, but I don't want to do it myself. So had that scientific background, but you know, the other big thing is I spent some time in Africa at, in Dartmouth, and that really rounded out kind of that more humanitarian side, which has been very important to me. So anyway, graduated there and thought, well, geez, what am I going to do with this kind of complex love for science? But I don't want to do it myself. I want to be part of a team. You know, I wanted to do good, do some good for the world, and somehow found this little company called, at the time, Trinity Partners. We were 13 people when I started, actually started on September September 11th, 2001, which is, is another kind of critical day, I suppose, world and in my life. But I started at this company that day. And, you know, some people say, how have you been at the same company for over 20 years? But it's really not the same company. Happy to tell you a little bit about it. But I was the 13th employee when I started on that fateful day. We're about 1,300 now. So I guess it's quite a growth rate, and it's been quite a wild ride. I'm happy to sort of tell you all about it. But I've worn many hats. I've done many things. And what we do here at Trinity Life Sciences— now dubbed Trinity Life Sciences— we help pharmaceutical, biotech, and medtech companies to make good decisions as how they commercialize their products. So we actually sort of are people who take the science coming from the lab bench and help people think about how to get it out into the wide, wide world. We help commercialize it, which is to try to get the drug to as many people as possible around the globe. So we work with about 300 companies in a consultative way. So we provide consulting, we provide insights, we provide analytics, but it's all around drugs and technologies and how do we get those out into the world. So I think for me, it was a happy place of being very team-oriented, but being very scientific and also having a humanitarian aspect to it. So can't wait to tell you a little bit more about it. But it's been quite a journey over the past 20 years.

And today, I mean, you started as employee number 13. Today you're the president and CEO.

Yes.

Was that a career trajectory that you expected?

Who would have thunk? I know we were, we were laughing that you never know where life takes you, right? I think if you had told me I'd be at the same company for over 20 years, back when I was at Dartmouth, I would've thought that's impossible, right? That is not a modern way to navigate a career. But, you know, actually I tried, I thought a lot about going back to business school and I got accepted at some of the most prestigious organizations, but my then boss and mentor stopped me from doing that. So I stayed here instead. So no, I never would've thought that this was sort of the way. And I also, I, I don't, you know, some people have that gene where they're meant to be the CEO. I don't think I have that gene. Um, and maybe that is my superpower that I, I never dreamed of being a CEO. I dreamed of really helping build a strong company that lasts and, and that led me to, to where I am today. Yeah. So it's been a, it's been really fun. Huh.

So I, I, I, to grow from 13 to 1,300, that's, that's big. And does that mean you bring, brought in outside investors and went through the whole venture capital process.

And you got it.

You got it. So when I started, um, beginning, we were a privately held company, 13 people, one sole proprietor. His name was John Corcoran and continues to be a major influence in the company. But John's vision was to build a company combining data or analytics and strategy for life sciences companies. He actually Grew up at Bain, Bain and Company, the consulting firm, but really had a passion for life sciences and wanted to do nothing but, but that whole era of Trinity, we were entrepreneurs. I mean, we were sourcing our business, figuring out how to do our work, how to keep the clients happy, trying to find talent, trying to train talent. I mean, it was, it was like starting from the beginning, building our own business.

It was a startup.

It was a startup. It was an, we were entrepreneurs and that's how it felt. For, you know, that first chapter. But you're right. Um, we, we grew up, um, you know, after the entrepreneurial era, we then went into a more of a business building era. How are we gonna build HR and IT and operations and how are we gonna really institutionalize this company? And so privately we were able to scale the company to about 250 people before we brought on our first institutional investor. So, um, we've had 2 investors, We had Parthenon Capital Partners for 3.5 years. We're now partnered with Kohlberg Company, which is a middle market private equity fund. So we've, we've learned a lot of new tricks. We went from entrepreneurs to business builders, and now we've got the investors on board and we're scaling and, and doing some M&A of our own. So it really has felt like many eras of, of time since we've been here at Trinity.

I think you're the first person I've talked to who actually successfully transformed from entrepreneur to late-stage business operations CEO. I know you weren't the CEO in the beginning, but, you know, we see, I talk to so many founders and entrepreneurs who have the skill set for starting stuff up, but don't have the skill set for, as you say, growing up and maturing. How do you manage that?

Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, I think it's about being adaptable and being resilient. And I know you like to talk a lot about listening, so I'd like to talk about that too. But, you know, I ran the operations for the company for a long time, so I really know the company deeply and intensely and what we have to offer our clients, what we have to offer our employees. And, and so it's just, it's about constantly learning for me. You know, I think I, I just took over, by the way, as CEO here about 6 months ago. So I'm a new CEO having moved from that more operational role into, into this role. So yeah, I've got some new tricks to learn now. I'm learning to manage our investors, learning to do M&A of our own. So, you know, I think I have a little bit of an underdog mentality. I don't have a, you know, my way or the highway mentality. I have a, I believe in constantly learning and I guess that's how you, that's how you do it. And I, I know you've, you've done it yourself, right? It's, you just gotta keep learning and keep adapting and, and it's, it's, it's a, it's a fun job.

My question, what is it that gets you up in the morning? You've been doing this for 20 years now. You, work through the ranks, now you're new CEO. There must be stuff that gets you really excited and gets you going.

Yeah.

Well, I, I, I believe in the power of 3, and maybe that's the Trinity in me, but I, I get probably first and foremost, I get up in the morning because I care so much about our employees. I care about their experience. We wanna bring in the best. We wanna cultivate them to stay the best. And if they do, you know, move on to other things, we want them to have a great experience here. So I'm always thinking about how we can be better and how we can provide an even better experience for our employees. And I, you know, I love them in many ways. I feel like they're my family and, you know, we want to do the best by them. But, but secondly, our clients, you know, our clients are just— I work in the best industry in the world, the life sciences industry. We, we make exciting new therapeutics available for patients around the globe. And I've got clients working on gene therapies. I've got clients working on new technologies that you just couldn't have even imagined 20 years ago. And, and being a consultant by, you know, by trade, we get to see so much of the industry. So there's just never a dearth of exciting client things happening for us to, you know, we think our job is to help our clients make good decisions, and every decision impacts a life. That's our moniker. Every decision we make impacts a life. So that, that has both responsibility and excitement with it. And then third, now I'm really excited about the company. The company is a sort of organism of its own, right? It's living and breathing and growing and changing and, you know, thinking about continuing to grow the company so that we can have a great employee experience, so that our clients can really, you know, see us as the best partners out there. I think, you know, all three of those things are always changing and always exciting.

Wow. Well, so what is it that you think is unique about you that's allowed you to do all this and approach those three things?

Well, um, I'd like to believe that I'm very adaptable as a person and, and that I'm very passionate and that I care deeply and am very loyal, um, not just to the company but to our clients and to our people. You know, I, I, I just have this sort of will that, that we will succeed. And it's not I, it's we. And we're doing this together. And I have a very team-oriented outlook. I have a very resilient outlook. You know, I, I, I just, I take a lot of pride in what we do and, and in this team. And, and we want to keep going. We're not, we're never done. You know, when I wrote my essay for my failed business school attempt, I said the most important thing to me in the world was progress, right? Just to get better, to be constantly improving. Progress is, is, is kind of what I, what I live for. So, um, that gets me up in the morning for sure and, and helps us to keep going even though I'm in my, you know, 23rd year of doing this.

And, um, where do you see Trinity, Trinity Life Sciences in the next 15 to 20 years?

Oh, I think, I think we're going to keep going. I think we want to be 2 times, 3 times as big. You know, I used to say, and this doesn't really work, you know, that we want to be, we want to have a household brand name among the life sciences companies. You know, companies like McKinsey and even Bain, where we kind of came from, you know, that there's, they kind of live in the ivory tower of that. But we want to be serving our customers with the same level of strategic insight but being much more real and much more personal with our clients and developing much more market-driven approach where we actually can bring analytics in, we can bring insights in, we can help our clients to make those hard decisions. So I hope that we're, we're gonna have even more ability to work with more clients around the globe. And our goal is to be 3 times as big as we are now.

Wow. How do you think AI is gonna change things?

Oh, AI is in our DNA. As I mentioned, you know, back when I started, our founder put up a slide that said data plus strategy. And that data has now taken on a whole new meaning. We have a technology team here who is helping us stay on the front edge of this wave of AI, both GenAI, but also just AI, ML, all sorts of robotic process automation and all sorts of things that we're doing. So we have about 500 people doing analytics here at Trinity. And we are bringing AI to bear on almost all of that analytics. So everything from helping our clients figure out, you know, if they've got a technology in development, how's the market going to receive that? We're actually using AI to infer really how the market will receive that drug and whether it will be a success. In launch phase, our clients need constant feedback about how their product is doing. How they can do better. I mean, that's a whole AI feedback loop that we've built. So yes, it is helping us to do our work better. It's also helping us to help our clients to do their work better and more effectively. So we want to be on the front edge of that and, and bring those use cases to our clients across the globe.

Wow. Excellent. I know it's, as a sole practitioner, it has radically changed the way that I do things. I'll just give you a quick example. I was teaching one of my graduate classes down at Pepperdine the first week of January, and I got talking to the executive director of the Strauss Institute, Dr. Sukhsimran Singh. Suk, I call him. And I said, they had just acquired a property, a beautiful mansion, chalet in Geneva for European teaching. I said, what if we put together a curriculum for foreign diplomats to teach them what we know as mediators and peacemakers. And he said, I love that idea. So I said, well, let me, I'll draft a curriculum and send it to you. So I thought, I thought about it for a while and I thought about, I'm gonna have ChatGPT do this. And I thought about the prompts very carefully. I put in the prompts and within 2 minutes I had the most amazing curriculum I've ever seen in my life. I couldn't have done it myself. It was unbelievable.

But then the beauty of it is then you can even add more to it, right? You can spend your time thinking more deeply about it, right?

I mean, it was just revolutionary. I couldn't believe it. My eyes popped out. Yeah, I tweaked it. I added some stuff and, you know, I sent it off on Monday and, you know, I don't know whether we're going to do anything with it, but the mere fact that I could do that in like 10 minutes, it took a lot of thinking ahead of time, but The mere fact that it could generate this kind of a product was just unbelievable to me.

And it's getting better and better.

I mean, imagine— same thing. Imagine if you could say, hey, my new drug looks like this. It has this level of efficacy, this level of side effects, this level of tolerability. And you could ask it, how will the market receive this drug? And it can give— you know, it would— it saves so much energy, right? It saves so much energy. You know, that, that ultimately you can spend your time adding value. I mean, in the life sciences now, maybe you don't have to actually pursue drugs that are not adding much value and you can actually spend your resources on those drugs that are adding value. So, you know, I love that.

I asked it how to be the CEO when I, when I first landed here.

So, you know, you can ask it a lot of things.

Let's pivot to listings since this is called Listing with Leaders and I think that listening is the foundational skill of life. Mike, this show is called Listening with Leaders for a reason. That is that I teach deep listening skills, and I think listening is the foundational skill of life. And I'm always interested in learning from my guests how important listening has been in their careers. So tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, that's well said, Doug Noll. And I espouse your theory wholeheartedly.

Wholeheartedly.

I think that's how we get better is by listening. So when I began my stint as CEO back in July, the very first thing that I did was put together a listening tour. And we called it that. We called it the CEO listening tour.

And I went—

we've got 12 global offices. We have 1,300 people here.

Wow.

I went around almost every office. I did India virtually, but don't worry, India. I'm going to be there soon. I met 450 people. I held 30 sessions over the course of my first 90 days.

Wow.

And I listened and listened and listened. And it's not just about listening. It's about really walking a mile in the shoes of the people you're listening to, right? What's motivating them? What's— you can't just come up and say, hey, what's good about Trinity and what's not so good about Trinity? You have to ask more questions that really infer where they're coming from. So I ask questions. You know, what gives you energy about our work? What makes you lose energy? And tell me stories. I'm really big into storytelling and hearing stories from others. So I learned so much. I was really trying to challenge myself not to assume I knew everything about this company because I'd been here for 20 years. I needed to start with an open mind. And I had to listen really deeply in all corners in order to get that perspective. And I did. Listening, it helped me come up with, maybe much to my COO's chagrin, a 15-point plan of things that we really needed to spend time on, which are going to be long-term change management and some of which are things we can check off immediately. But I really appreciated everybody's time, and I'm going to continue to listen. I think that was a listening tour to get me started. Now we're forming an employee advisory council. Where I have about, you know, 12 or so employees that have applied and been accepted to my advisory council, and they're going to be my reverse mentors for the next 18 months. And this idea of reverse mentorship, when the junior people are teaching you things like how to use ChatGPT or, you know, how to use social media in new ways, um, you know, listening is really the way that you learn all those things. So I, I believe that, that I can learn a lot from, from our people here at Trinity, and I'm gonna keep listening.

How did you find, the relationships that you have with the peo— everybody that you listen to shifted because you took the time as a CEO, a new CEO, to not only to, to take the time to travel to them physically, wherever they were in the world other than India, which you'll get to eventually. And actually sit down in the room and listen to them. How did that change your relationships with them, do you think?

Yeah.

And by the way, I had already been to India last February, so I'll be back again.

Um, but I mean, I think it enables us to look face to face, eye to eye, and see that we're all here because we have common interest in, in what we're achieving here. And that, you know, this is not an, an I versus them or a we versus them, that, that we're in it together. Um, that's one of our Trinity values. We have a very strong 6-point value system, everything from in it together, all voices matter, uh, do the right thing, strive for excellence. These are the values that we live by. And when people see you living by them, then they can live by them too. So I think we established a much more trusting relationship from having spent that time together. Um, you know, and I just really, really value it and it, everybody's time is valuable. Um, so I really appreciated everybody taking the time, but, you know, I got to learn names. That's so important that we know each other, that this is not some hierarchical relationship that we've sat around a table, we've shared stories. Um, and we've, we've formed new insights together.

So I, I believe we have much stronger relationship for having spent that time.

Has that been your experience as well?

The most important thing you can do is listen another, listen another person into existence. And as a leader, what I have found is that when you learn how to listen to people at a very deep level, you build instant trust and loyalty because people have an innate desire to be heard. And unfortunately, in this world, there's not much opportunity for people to feel heard. And when you as a leader can go in and really truly listen to people, and they know you're listening to them, and they feel heard, and they feel validated, they'll follow you anywhere. That's the secret.

Yeah, I couldn't agree. I, I— there are folks I've worked with here at Trinity for 20 years, and there are folks that I've worked with here at Trinity for 20 days, and each of those people's perspectives are unique and valuable. So I hope folks know that every voice does matter here and we want to hear them. That's right. We'll create those forums.

That's right. I think that it's my belief that that is probably the most important thing a CEO can do because it's all based on relationship. And when you have people in your organization that know that you're— know because they've experienced it that you're there for them. They will give you everything. And you build up really powerful organizational culture that will take the company to a new level. Yeah, the secret is in knowing how to listen. And unfortunately, there are many, many people who are leaders that don't know how to listen, or they're very superficial about it. And they avoid the difficult conversations, they avoid emotions, and they avoid deep engagement. Either because of ego or because they don't know, or because they're underdeveloped themselves emotionally and, and can't manage that, provokes too much anxiety.

But yeah, I think that's well said.

You have managed, you have managed to develop it, and I, I now understand why you are the success that you are, because you really— I mean, I know you're modest and humble, which is good too, but you are, you do have some unique attributes that, that I don't see very often. And so good for you. I don't know where you picked up the skills, but you're, you know, good job. Keep it up.

Well, thanks, Doug. That's awfully kind of you to say. But, you know, we talk a lot about leadership styles here, and leadership can come from anywhere.

But some leaders lead from the front.

They know the way. Some people, some leaders lead from the back. They're ushering their folks along, um, and Yeah.

Four dimensions of leadership. You can lead down, you can lead up, you can lead sideways, and the fourth, lead yourself.

And sometimes you have to adapt and, and wear different hats at different times. Um, you know, right now I'm, I'm really working on creating forums where our people can be empowered at all levels to give input, to really shape the company and, and to help determine our future directions. So, you know, sometimes we have to lead from the front and sometimes we have to lead from the middle. And I'm trying to be a little bit of both. Good for you.

Well, one more question, because I know you're really busy. What's one thing about yourself that we wouldn't know about unless you revealed it to us? You already told us you're a sailor. We're both sailors, so you can't go there.

I already mentioned, I think probably a very definitive characteristic for me is, is that I'm an underdog. There are people in the room who think they know the answer to every question. And I'm not one of those people. I like to listen before I form my opinion. But I think on a personal note, maybe more importantly, you probably also don't know that I have two little girls. And we are animal crazy. So I listen to them a lot. And I listen to all their variety of animals. And probably most importantly, they are horseback riders. So we spend a lot of time getting dirty. At the barn.

And there's no place that keeps you as humble as when you're around a 2,000-pound animal who, if you're not communicating and listening to their signals, you know, back to the listening point, that's right, you're in trouble.

So we listen in very different ways to them.

I'll just share a quick, quick aphorism that a friend of mine who runs cows, she and her husband have a grazing lease up in Yosemite. It's called a cowboy, a cowboy daycare. It's a 3-year-old in a cow trailer with 6 puppies. Get that picture.

That sounds a little like what we have going on.

So, yeah, but you know, I think I always say that my personal mantra is you have to do 3 things every day. You have to work out. You have to work and you have to go out or do something that's fun.

Right.

And you have to stay balanced. You have to feed your mind and your body and, and your soul. And that smelly horse barn feeds my soul. So you gotta do a little bit of all those three things.

Good for you. Well, this has been a real pleasure chatting with you. I know the audience really appreciate it too. Thank you so much, Leslie, for your time today.

Doug, thank you so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun. Really appreciate being on your show.

You're absolutely welcome. Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this share this episode on social media. Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.