184 - Empowering Children's Confidence with Gender-Inclusive Clothing with StereoType Kids' Elizabeth Brunner

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Elizabeth Bruner, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the founder and CEO of a very interesting company called Stereotype Kids, which can be found at stereotypekids.com. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me, Doug. I'm excited to be here.

So you're a clothing designer and seller of unique children's clothes. Tell us a little bit about your backstory.

So, uh, Stereotype Kids is a gender-inclusive clothing brand that I started in 2020. I'm a fashion designer by trade. I had a clothing brand before Stereotype Kids that was womenswear called Piece by Piece, which was made from recycled fibers. In fabrics that I collected throughout the city. And I made the pivot to Stereotype unintentionally. I call myself an accidental entrepreneur because I had no intention of starting a new business, but my girl-boy twins started sharing clothing at a very young age and they inspired Stereotype Kids. They inspired me to start the company even though I resisted for quite a while. I couldn't resist any longer and launched it at the end of 2020.

Right, right in the pandemic. How did that work for you?

Yeah, well, it's interesting. It's certainly not great timing, but it actually was in terms of, um, my mental health, because, uh, really what Stereotype did for me was allowed me to focus on something greater than what was happening in the outside world, and I was able to focus.

What got you focused on, uh, designing neutral, gender-neutral clothing for kids?

Well, my kids, as I mentioned, I have a boy and a girl and they're twins. And I started observing them sharing clothing at a very young age, around age 4. I noticed that my daughter was often digging around in my son's drawers and my son, vice versa, was digging around in my daughter's and they were naturally drawn to each other's wardrobes without any, you know, correction or me stepping in to change it. And so I found it really sweet and innocent and fascinating. And it just, you know, really turned into this idea for the business.

And, and so when we talk about gender-neutral clothing for kids, what, what exactly are we talking about?

Well, I like to say gender-inclusive. Um, gender-neutral implies a different term for me. It implies a toning down. So neutral colors, muted colors, um, often beige or greens or yellows. And gender inclusive is really about celebrating both aspects of boys' and girls' children's wear, traditional children's wear, which is, you know, for girls it's usually sparkle, pinks, rainbows, and for boys we see a lot of camo, trucks, dinosaurs. So really what I'm doing is taking elements from both of those pieces and blending them together to create gender inclusive clothing.

And, and how do you I know you do design work and I was on your website. You have somebody manufacturing the clothing line that you create for you.

I am. Yeah. I work with local manufacturers to create all of my clothing, creating a more sustainable clothing loop.

And the business— it looked to me like the business is— it's an online e-commerce business.

Pretty direct to consumer. That's right. Yeah.

Well, cool. So you've been doing this now for what sounds like about 4— not quite 4 years, 3 and a half years.

About 3 years. Little over.

And you've been a, a designer for a long time. What is it that gets you excited in the morning? You get up and go to work?

Well, I love clothing myself, so there's— that's one aspect. I love fashion. I always have. Um, as a child, I would often, um, watch my mom sew my clothing, and I would collect her scrap pieces and create clothing for my dolls. Uh, so that was really the first you know, plant seed that was planted in me designing. I just love being creative and imaginative. And for me, that's really what Stereotype represents. The ethos is about individuality, supporting self-discovery and imagination. And I get to do that every single day.

That's pretty cool. And it, it sounds to me also like you're having an influence on children in there and also on their parents in in sort of making fashion statements around gender, which is really interesting and a little bit countercultural. What do you think?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's definitely, you know, not something that is talked about a lot with parents is making a simple shift in your thinking, which is, you know, not putting your— not putting limits on children and what they should wear. But letting them discover who they are through dressing themselves and not being afraid of it or making assumptions about it.

Have you seen this? How have you seen this roll out in the, in the, in the growth and development of your own children?

Well, my children are, uh, very creative and they're very free-spirited, but not in a way where they're, they're running around and, you know, um, barefoot and, you know, with, with crazy things on. It's more that they are understanding who they are based off of the support that I'm giving them on discovering who they are through dressing, through self-discovery, through the things that they are interested in beyond dressing themselves. So it's really about allowing that self-discovery at a really young age. And for me, I mean, I didn't know who I was until I was like— I mean, I'm still trying to figure it out.

Maybe it's a lifelong journey.

Yeah, it's a long journey. But for my kids, you know, I'm really encouraging them to understand what they like, what they don't like, their own personal preferences. Rather than fitting and conforming into a societal mold.

And how are the, how are the, how are the kids treated by their peers? Any, is there any, I mean, do they get any pushback or, um, flak from, from, for example, schoolmates?

You know, they, they are homeschooled, um, so, so I, so no, they don't. Um, but when they were in school, they certainly did. My daughter did not, uh, so she was considered more of a tomboy, right? She wore baseball hats backwards, she wore sports jerseys and camo pants, and nobody said a word. But when my son showed up in a bright pink fuzzy sweater and leggings, you know, there was certainly some points and whispers. And it's not something we're used to seeing, um, as a society, especially for a boy to express themselves in a more feminine way. But that's who he is, and that's what he's attracted to. And his friends quickly realized that it doesn't matter what he wears, he's an amazing kid. And he's kind and sweet. And, you know, that's really what they focus on with him. And my daughter as well. Doesn't matter that she's more masculine in her dress and her expression. She's a kind, loving person inside. Wow.

That's pretty cool. So where do you see this adventure going over the next 5 or 10 years?

You know, I'm really open. I would really love to do collaborations and work with other companies and really expand this idea for children and adults to continue to evolve and grow. We're not done growing and learning about ourselves just because we turn 18 or 25 or whatever that magic number is in your head where you think that you're done exploring who you are. And really, clothing and fashion gives you that opportunity to lean into a different side of yourself every time you dress. And it's speaking volumes of who you are without saying a word. And I think that's really fascinating and something that we're going to see more of.

Oh, that's great. And, and how do your, how do your colleagues react to this idea, which again is— it's, it's different.

It's different. I mean, it's— I get a lot of positive feedback. Um, it's very— it's a very unique story. Um, you know, like I said, I wasn't planning on starting a business. I really sort of fell into it accidentally, and my children, um, sort of encouraged this idea of, you know, who am I beyond what the outside world expects me to be? And that expanded to my children and continues to expand beyond myself and what I'm building. So I'm really excited to see where it takes me. And my colleagues, you know, they're excited too. I mean, this is a unique business and the way I'm setting it up. And so they're, they have their popcorn and are watching and ready to see what unfolds too. Good or bad.

How would you, how would you characterize the, the typical customer that comes onto your website?

Well, they're, they're usually parents. But I actually have been getting a lot more focus from people who, that don't even have kids. That just really love and resonate with the message, which is all about supporting individuality and moving beyond gender norms. So, so it's interesting. I mean, I certainly focus on parents because, you know, that is my target audience. But I do offer some adult sizes and some clothing. And, you know, with social media and being able to get your message out in various ways, it's resonating with a lot of different people, which is exciting to me.

Would you say that, that is your Is your audience more urban? I presume that it would be because urban people will be more open to these ideas than people who are suburban or rural.

Yeah, I would say yes, you're correct. It's more urban areas, larger areas, East and West Coast. Yeah.

You're finding— are you finding that you're shipping all over the country?

Not quite the middle yet.

The coast.

Yeah, the coast, coast to coast. I am. But here and there, you know, we'll get a an order from like Kansas or something. And it's, it's great. You do— we do plan on reaching more people, um, as we continue to grow. I mean, I still consider myself very much in startup phase, figuring it out, you know, really getting, um, the foundation of my business and my purpose in line with what I'm doing.

What do you think it is that's unique about you that has brought all this together to make it successful?

That's unique about me? Oh, that's such a good question. I, you know, I think that I have a unique way of looking at things. And for me, really, I was looking at my kids and how they were addressing themselves as a learning opportunity and how it was reflected back on me, especially if I felt an urge to go in and quote unquote correct them, right? If my son's wearing a skirt, I go in and say, no, you can't wear that. Why? Why am I doing that? So it actually really caused me to question myself and do a lot of deep reflecting. And I think that's really what the brand is about. It's about self-reflection. And so I think that makes my story more unique, especially having a boy and a girl the same age that can share clothing. I mean, I was certainly set up. I really call this business my calling because I had no intention of starting it. And yet the call was so loud that I just couldn't ignore it.

I know how that is.

I was going to say, you might know a thing or two about that.

I know a thing or two about that. So I'm curious, what do you say to people who have more rigid, traditional gender role, um, identities for children and would, and would say that what you're doing is wrong? What do you say to them?

You know, I would never tell anyone to, um, you know, adjust to my point of view. To each their own. I think it's more a matter of really looking at where, um, a seed was planted, where an idea was planted, and if it really resonates with you now. Because a lot of our our, you know, programming comes from our own childhood and our own experiences, and we're deeply conditioned to believe certain things whether or not they resonate with us or not. We don't stop to think about, oh, does that really matter? Does it matter if my son is wearing pink tights or my daughter is wearing all black? I mean, we just have these preconceived notions about how kids should be, right, or act in the world, and we, we carry those with us. So I would say, ask yourself some questions about where those seeds were planted and if they still resonate. But I would never try and say, this is the right thing for you to do. It's really what's right for the parent. And try not to judge your kids and limit them. Because once you label a child, you really limit them.

Right. It strikes me that a lot of parents probably have a lot of anxiety. Over raising their children. And if they conform to traditional gender roles, that helps manage the anxiety. Sure. And so how do you think parents should— how could you help parents manage this, what would be probably is a very natural anxiety around gender roles and wondering how gender rules ends up in sexual preference and, you know, some fairly deep and difficult personal questions.

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that I could necessarily help anyone. I would just give them my point of view, right? So from my perspective, you know, watching my children share clothing was pure innocence. It's— I'm watching them be creative with what they're seeing. I'm not going in and saying this is wrong and this is right. I'm giving them freedom to do so. And so when it— and I understand there's a lot of comfort in conforming to gender tradition traditional roles, right? But it's not for everyone. And, you know, there could be a child that is a girl who loves pink and only wants to wear pink. That's great. And there may be a girl who doesn't. And being okay with both of it and allowing it to unfold in, in a natural way, not forcing your views because that's what you believe. But, you know, that's something that I try— I don't try to preach to anyone. This is just, again, my point of view and how I've observed my kids. And I truly love my kids unconditionally, whether they want to wear pink tights or sparkle pants or camo. It doesn't matter. And I think that really comes down to supporting your child as they are and loving them as they are.

So this show is called Listening with Leaders. And as you know, I teach people how to listen. Seems like a strange thing to learn, but we really don't learn how to listen. And it's a skill that has to be acquired. I'm curious about the role of listening, maybe even listening to you. It sounds like the path you're on has been caused by you really listening to your kids at a very deep level. Not— and maybe I frame it by saying you're listening, listening and watching how they behave, how they act, what, what's their emotional state. And you're paying attention to the whole being. Would that be a fair statement?

That is a fair statement. And I would also say I'm listening to myself deeply. Oh, so that, that is a, that's a, um, I think more profound way to really listen and to tune into yourself. Yes, I'm tuning into my kids and what they're showing me, but I'm also reflecting on what that means for me, and I'm doing deep listening for myself and Like I said, again, you know, being an accidental entrepreneur, that wasn't a path I intended to take. But I was listening to my higher self, listening to deeply within what was right and resonating with me. And that opened a whole doorway up of creativity and, you know, a way of living that I would have never experienced had I not done that. So deep listening, I think, yes, listening to other people, but also really listening to yourself is so valuable.

How did you develop this skill of listening deeply to yourself? That's a rare commodity.

Well, it's a, it's a rare commodity, um, to be alone and being willing to listen to yourself, because I think if you're not willing to listen to yourself, you're shutting yourself out. And it can be a painful process to, to listen deeply within. You have to confront a lot of things. Even for me, starting this business, I really had to confront, well, what what am I doing? Why am I doing it? What— why is it important for me to do it? And that took a lot of deep conversation with myself and really listening to what was right and what was coming to the surface for me. Um, it's practice, practice, practice, just like anything, you know, being alone and being able to be with yourself.

So when you're, when you're engaging in this deep introspective listening, what kinds of things— how do you, how do you process that?

I do a lot of journaling, and I will, you know, if something is really sticking with me, I will often write it out. You know, I try to find solitude, which is hard with twins, 11-year-old twins. But when I can, I really cherish the moments, and I just try to create a space where anything and everything is okay to come out inside of me, good or bad. And I think You know, when you're running a business, it's a scary and nonlinear ride, right? I mean, the road is not clear. You don't know where your map is. You're, you know, going by the stars. And that takes a lot of inner listening and inner knowing to keep going. And trust me, there's certainly times when I'm like, why am I doing this? How did I get here? What's going on? But there's a deep inner knowing for me to keep going. And so I do.

One of the skills that I think that successful leaders have is the ability to be aware of and manage their own anxiety. And tell me about that. How have you learned to cope with that?

I mean, it's a tough road for sure. I certainly have my anxious moments where, like I said, I'm like, what am I doing? How did I get here? I think for me, it's about leaning into what's uncomfortable because there's a— when you're in a leadership position, you're uncomfortable a lot. And being an introvert, I'm very uncomfortable speaking out, even doing an interview. I mean, my hands are sweating right now. My heart is racing, but the larger picture for me is getting this mission about my business out, which is supporting children and individuality. Um, so it, it sort of transcends the fear and transcends the anxiety because there's a purpose behind what I'm doing. And so I can lean into being uncomfortable in that way rather than being uncomfortable not saying anything or speaking out. So it's really a fine balance of finding you know, that place where you are able to hold some anxiety, witness it, know it's there, but know you can transcend it as well.

I, uh, you said something that I, I think is profound, that bears repeating and thinking about, and that is that when you find your meaning in life, you're able to, you're able to lean into that meaning when you're feeling insecure or unsure or anxious or whatever, because It's the, you know, you're on the right path and you, and, and that's almost like a guidepost that keeps you going even though there are parts of your physiology that are saying, stop, don't go there.

Yes. It's blind trust in a way, right? It's, it's having trust. Yeah.

But the reason that we, we have the trust is because we have the vision. I know this is right. I know in my heart of hearts this is the right way to go. And there are going to be a lot of naysayers. There are going to be a lot of always stumbling blocks. There's always obstacles in leadership. But this is the right way to go. And I'm just going to keep pushing forward because it's the right thing to do. And I don't know where the journey is going to end up, but I'm okay with that too. Sounds familiar.

It sounds familiar. I think you speak on it very well. Well, it's the hero's journey, I feel like, right? Really just like, I'm going to be maybe having some dark nights of the soul and really questioning what I'm doing. But I think when you have that internal compass where you just kind of know this is the right thing, you just— I think there's no doubt. You just have to keep going. It's not even a matter of choice. I mean, I often say like, this wasn't a choice. I had to do it. I had to.

It was a compulsion.

Yes, absolutely. I, without a doubt, know I was meant to do this.

Yeah, when you, when you get that compulsion again, I'm in familiar, it's familiar space for me. You, you really can't resist it.

No. And nor should you.

No, you shouldn't. Uh, and I can think of so many people who probably had compulsion, but they were driven off course because of money or social standards, cultural expectations, and didn't follow their their dream and ended up being miserable.

Yeah. Well, like I said, it's so what kind of uncomfortable do you want to be? Do you want to be uncomfortable not following your passion, not following what your heart is calling, or do you want to be uncomfortable paving a new way? They're both uncomfortable. So that's how I, that's how I make peace with it when I'm feeling very lost or confused or not sure which direction to go. I'm like, okay, I'm uncomfortable right now. I don't have the map. Don't know where it is, you know, things are feeling a bit wonky. Um, but I think it's like one step at a time really makes the difference in terms of like planning long term because it's the long game. It's not just tomorrow or next month or next year. It's the long game.

Do you have, do you have many employees?

Um, they're all contract employees. So I have about 5. Yeah, very small team.

And it, I presume it's mostly remote.

It is mostly remote. I do have 2 employees that come into an office in San Francisco with me. Yes.

So how do you manage those employees thinking about all of the stuff that we're talking about, which is pretty deep? How does all this influence your interaction with your team members as a leader?

Yeah, I mean, it's one person at a time, one step at a time. I mean, I can't stress that enough that as much as I can plan ahead 3 months, next year, I'm not going to get there without the small team I have, the engine of the ship, which I'm driving the ship, but they're the engine of the ship. And so for me, it's like one person at a time, one thing at a time, and really not putting a time limit on any of it. It's like, sure, I would— do I wish that I had, you know, maybe gotten a little further at this point?

Sure.

But, but I'm not comparing myself that this is my, my singular journey and I'm doing it this particular way, and I'm grateful for the people that are on this journey with me.

So when you're, when you're thinking about bringing people in, into the team, what are, what are some of the things that you're thinking about when you're interviewing or when you're out, when you're putting out in the universe, I need, I need a person who can do this?

Yeah.

What do you, what do you, when the universe provides, what are you thinking about?

I'm thinking about, is this whoever I'm calling in gonna resonate with the brand? And I'll be able to tell pretty quickly by the way they respond to the message and the meaning behind the brand stereotype. And so usually when I talk to somebody, I can tell right away if they're just in it to try and get a job and don't really care that much, you know, or if they're interested because it resonates deeply. All of my employees that are working with me deeply resonate with the brand. Love the mission, want to be a part of it, and are willing to give me their, their time to do it.

So, um, it's really just picking up on the energy of other people and what their true intentions are, finding the passion in other people that align with your passion.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, interesting journey. So one more question before I let you go. Okay, what's one thing about yourself, Elizabeth, that we would never know about? Unless you reveal it to yourself, unless you reveal it to us.

Oh my gosh. Okay, let's see. What is one thing? Well, I think I already mentioned I'm pretty shy and, and introverted, but I'm really, you know, kind of silly and down to earth and, you know, like to dance and joke. And I don't know if that's something that would be surprising for other people, but it's something that I think when you can let loose and be yourself, those things kind of naturally come out of you. And I think that makes the people around you happy and certainly yourself happy.

So good for you. I'll tell you that I've done over 165 interviews on this podcast, and I would say that 98, 99% of the leaders I've interviewed are all introverts. Yeah, I think that introverts make really great leaders. Shyness is not the same as introversion. Shyness is just overcoming the anxiety of presenting in public. And you're doing a great job, by the way.

Thank you very much.

I can't see your sweating palms or your palpitating heart.

That's right. They're down here, so you can't see them.

But you're coming across with a lot of it. So good for you. No, and I think that's always been interesting. I'm an introvert. You would never know it either. I mean, I was a trial lawyer for 22 years. But as an introvert, I get my energy from the inside. So if you put me in a crowded room, I'll hate it. Last thing I wanna do is be in a crowded room because all those people are taking energy from me. Whereas an extrovert is the person who loves being in a crowd because the extrovert can pull the energy from the crowd.

Mm-hmm.

I would rather spend an hour playing jazz violin. I'm a jazz violinist. I'd rather spend an hour playing jazz violin by myself than being at a political rally with thousands of people. It's just not my thing.

Yeah, same. I'm sensitive to energy, and so big crowds are not, are not great for me. But, um, yeah, being introverted is something that, that can serve you well if you can take the time to be alone with yourself. And I think that's where that self-reflection can come in.

Well, I think, I think one, it, it amplifies self-reflection, and two, being introverted mean typically you can be a better listener because you're not so focused on pushing energy out. You're more focused on listening to the energy that's out there and assessing it and evaluating it.

I agree, I agree. Well said.

Thank you so much, Elizabeth. It's been a great conversation.

Thank you, Doug. Thanks for having me.

You're welcome.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up, ratings, and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.