193 - A Deep Dive into Winemaking, Viticulture, and the Power of Listening with Whitehall Lane Winery's Jason Moulton

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started. Jason Moulton, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are one of the most interesting guys I've had an opportunity to talk to on the show in quite a while. You are the director of winemaking and viticulture at a winery in Napa called Whitehall Lane Winery, which— and you guys grow, you've got 200 acres of your own grapes and you, what, you bottle about 50,000 cases a year of wine. So it's pretty good size winery. Not exactly tiny.

Yeah. I refer to it as a medium-sized luxury winery.

There you go. There you go. Well, welcome to the show. I, First of all, let's start off. Your background is really interesting. Tell us a little bit, my audience, those that are listening, give us a, a, a brief history of your background, starting from growing up in Illinois and ultimately making it to Napa Valley.

Yeah. Right. Okay. Well, yes. So I was born and raised in Illinois. My, my folks are in the medical profession, cardiology and electrophysiology. They're, you, you know, study and background. And my, my father actually moved all over the United States, Oklahoma, North Carolina, with residency jobs or just getting better training around the country. And so, yeah, basically grew up between North Carolina, Oklahoma, and Illinois. And, you know, now I settled in California. And in the process, lots of schooling in between all of that, specifically Southern Illinois University. So I'm a Saluki. If you're familiar with the Salukis, Southern Illinois, Carbondale, and ended up doing my postgraduate work in viticulture and enology over in Christchurch, New Zealand at Lincoln University. So that's kind of where I really got my wine focus on an education level.

And then you've worked all over the world before you, before you landed in Napa.

Yes. So fast forwarding, a lot of my focus My original focus, I started the industry in Illinois. I started working with what we call American varietals and hybrids, French hybrids. And so emerging out of the Illinois wine industry, I had to transition and start working with Vitis vinifera, which is basically the premium grape stock that the world uses more than just Illinois varieties. And so I moved to Canada, studied in Canada at a satellite school through University of British Columbia, went to Korbel, if you know the sparkling house over in Russian River, right? Did an internship there in the lab and got this postgraduate position, or not position, but a postgraduate degree down in New Zealand, worked a couple harvests in New Zealand. And I started to see the fastest way to get this experience and accelerate growth and education ultimately was to do reverse harvest. So I did 2 in New Zealand, I did 2 in Bordeaux, I did 1 in South Africa, and at some point I had to grow up and say I can't do this forever. And I was 27, yeah, around 27 years old, and yeah, I wanted to land in Napa. That essentially was the goal. And so I targeted Rutherford and ended up here and I'm here right now, like literally I'm in Rutherford, and that was the goal all along back in 2007.

So tell us about the winery you work for, Whitehall Lane.

So Whitehall Lane was established in 1979. The family that owns it right now, they are the Leonardini family. Great family to work for. A lot of people don't get the opportunity to work with families. You know, there's, there's a family element in leadership at wineries, and then there's the corporatocracy. And so, you know, getting to work with a family, getting to actually talk to the owners and get what you need from them in terms of guidance and leadership is important. Whereas if you're in the corporate world, maybe you don't get that. You know, they have the final say as the owners, and having that connection, that personal touch with them, I think it goes a long way.

So you've been at this for a while now, and you've been at Whitehall for how many years?

I just went in, I just finished the 8th harvest here.

It's been a while. What is it that gets you up and gets you excited in the morning?

You know what, every day is different. I think that's what drives me in this industry. Every day is a different day. You're doing a different process. You have people who do different things in the vineyard, they do different things in the winery to keep everything going. I mean, we're dealing with farming. It's a perishable product here in the winery, and we have to take care of it. You know, my greatest example of that was during COVID We were considered essential workers because it's agriculture and it's perishable, and we just kept on going. And so wine, thank God, is essential. And to everyone.

Absolutely. Yeah. So it— what, what, what gets you really excited is the fact that there's just so much variety in the kind of stuff, in the stuff you have to do every day. And I mean, you're, you're managing both the winemaking operation, which is substantial, and you got 200 acres of grapes to worry about.

Right.

That's a lot.

Right. So it, So it definitely involves a lot of systems creation, multitasking, and just keeping your eye on the prize. It's a very dynamic job and it's not for the faint-hearted for sure. And you just have to pay attention at all step of all steps of the way. So yeah, the details are immense, but as long as you don't get bogged down in details and you can make decisions like I think that's where people have the greatest success. In fact, I tell people during harvest, we're making on average 1,000, maybe 2,000 decisions a week on how we make a wine, how we call a wine, how we might adjust a wine as it comes in. And so yeah, there's all these really critical decisions, and then we're training people. On how to navigate the harvest and do the right thing, be san— you know, be sanitary in the process. And, you know, because we're fighting microbes at all angles in this business as well. You know, like I said, it's perishable, it's prone to oxidation, you have spoilage, you have bacteria. So, you know, kind of in a paranoia fashion, you really have to be on your game, A-game at all times.

How do you prevent yourself from micromanaging?

So, you know, that is a great question, and I'm just in the process of wrapping up my MBA right now, and that was a big, uh, come-to-Jesus moment. Like, okay, how do I let this— let some of this stuff go? Well, I write protocols. I wrote right procedures. And when I write a work order, for example, on when I'm, you know, defining task management, the instructions are there. And so as a step-by-step process, as long as they're following the steps, it's fine. So they get the training initially, and then you just let them go out into the world like you might let your kids out in college. I don't know what that's like yet, but I'm ready.

And so it's interesting. So You went back to school. I mean, you have an advanced degree in winemaking and viticulture, and you're just finishing up your MBA?

I graduate next week.

Well, congratulations. What have you learned? What have you learned in the MBA program that opened your eyes to the kinds of things you were doing? Because obviously you're a pretty talented guy.

Delegation, you know, just as we're talking about micromanaging there, just moving away from that. I have had micromanagers. Managed me in the past, and you know, it never feels good. And so if you're ever becoming that, it's yes, you have to take a step back and let people go, let people thrive. But a lot of it comes with trust, and it's a big job, you know, managing such a, you know, the quantifiable nature of wine, the dollar amount, and the qualitative measures that go into that wine. We want to be precise. And so precision is important. And so I think it's about developing a good team and trusting them, training them, and just letting them go. But, you know, specifically leadership intelligence was probably one of my favorite classes that I had go on. And that, that was essentially finding people's personalities and understanding more about your own personality so that you can see your blind spots and make up for them. But then as you engage with people, you, you understand how they think and almost look at them as a color. Like, for example, I have this on my desk. This is Insights. And Insights kind of define you as a character and how you think, like a blue, a red, a yellow, and a green. And this is, you know, data is blue. Blue is more data-driven. Red is You know, I just want it done. Yellow is very social and green is more empathetic. So to speak, and I'm a, I'm a blue. I'm very data-driven.

Yeah.

Surprise. But yeah. And so that, that for me was really important to kind of look into the, what are people's intentions as you're, as you're dealing with them as managing them or having a collegial relationships with other winemakers or other, you know, selling people grapes. Like, I know she— I negotiate grapes, grapes for sale. And so, you know, understanding what they need to make them comfortable to do long-term business with us. Yeah, so it's—

so I'm just dynamic, dynamic. I'm just curious, just in terms of the business, you've got 200 acres. Do you produce all— you produce all your wines from the 200 acres, or do you buy buy other grapes as well?

In very recent years, and this last year was the first year where we really delved in and stopped buying grapes. So the long-term plan for the family was to move to estate only so that we don't have to spend money on buying other people's grapes, that we have the source right in front of us let's just utilize that source and we can, yeah, profit from it, so to speak.

So, so pretty much you're sourcing all of your, all of your groups from your own land at the moment?

Yeah. So that's, I think it reads 200 acres kind of in our profile. It's like 200 to 220 in overall acres, but in reality it's 145 planted acres.

Oh, okay.

And so yeah, with that, with that, yeah, sell a little bit of fruit to some high-end clients within Napa Valley and Sonoma. And yeah, make what we need to from these vineyards as well.

Wow. And you've got, you must have what, 4 or 5 different varietals that you're growing?

I like to tell people I do about 22 different SKUs. So SKUs or items, products. And so we do, I want to say, 6 or 7 different Cabernets or Cabernet Blanc, Sauvignon Blanc, a Semillon, sparkling Pinot Noir, a Blanc de Noirs, 3 Pinot Noirs, red wines, Chardonnay. We have these Pierce's disease varieties called Paysanne Noir and Camenière Noir, which are really great stories on their own. We do single bottlings of those sometimes. And then Malbec and Petit Verdot and Merlot.

That's a lot.

To name a few.

Who do you, who are your customers?

So we're nationally distributed. We also export internationally. So yeah, all 50 states and a lot of DTC, direct-to-consumer, wine club, retail. You know, that's where you're gonna get your, your, your biggest margins in terms of BTC, you know, selling full retail. When you sell to a distributor, you may do wholesale prices, so you're maybe giving them a great deal, and, and then they're, they're moving it for you to a retailer. The retailer has to make a margin on it as well. And so yeah, everybody has to get a piece of the pie, right?

So what is it you think, if you look back on it now, what do you think is unique about you that you, that you bring to the table that's made this whole operation successful?

Well, I've been here for 8 years and the family has actually owned it for 31 years, but 31 years this last week. Wow. So they're definitely part of that success and, and, and having that leadership and understanding of how the industry works. So they kind of created that. I dropped in. And yeah, back in 2016. But what would make me successful at it? You know, going back to details, paying attention on a constant basis for everything around being, I like to say, self-aware of everything that I have to deal with, you know, managing a facility in terms of the infrastructure that we have. As well as looking into the vineyards. And then the winemaking, the blending. I mean, truly, there's so many different dynamics to the job. I think being organized is probably number one, right?

So I would say I was really well organized, and I would say probably very meticulous.

Right. Precise. I like to—

yeah, precise. That would be meticulous. Is— yeah, yeah. Not letting anything go by chance. It's going to be planned out and figured out, and you, you're going to get an expected outcome if you do it the right way.

I like to refer to it as process flow management.

There you go.

I mean, we are in a process, and you're, and you're seeing this kind of flowchart, you know, in your head about the way that the grapes come in, how they're growing. And so, yeah, there's, there's definitely a flowchart kind of mentality about how things need to be managed.

It's not like, it's not like it was in the old days where you just grew grapes and stomped them and put them in a vat and hope for the best. This is a highly scientific, highly engineered venture.

You've got it. I mean, yeah, we're, yeah, you know, back in the day there, that would have been native yeast fermentations, which I dabble with here. We do native yeast fermentation on most of our white wines. And it could be highly risky. You know, we talk about spoilage, spoilage yeast, bacteria, oxidation. And so, yeah, making sure none of those things happen. And those are the things that keep me up at night. Very good. Microbes.

That and, that, that and a glassy-winged sharpshooter, right? And Pierce's disease. Yes. For those that don't know, it's an insect that has, spreads a virus that kills, kills vines called Pierce's disease. And it's been in California for a while and it's been kept under control, but if it got out of control, it would wipe out the wine industry.

Right. And so we, you know, we planted the Paysanne Noir and the Cabernet Noir at one of our properties on what we call the island. And the island, it's basically between two creeks, right? Kind of an offshoot along the Napa River. And so it's in a riparian zone of Napa Valley, and there's a lot of action from the glassy-winged sharpshooter. And so, yeah, they decimated one of our vineyard blocks.

Wow.

Quite frequently, to the point where it's like, okay, well, we gotta stop planting this. And so I came in around the time that that was being done. And yeah, so now I've seen what Pierce's disease resistant varieties like Paysanne Noir and Cabernet Noir do. And so I can successfully say that we are the first winery to commercially make these two Pierce's disease varieties. And now there are other wineries that are making them, but we were the first on the market with the Cabernet Noir and the Paysanne Noir. Texas wine industry is picking it up. I was just looking online. There's another winery in Calistoga that is making some PD varieties.

Are you just—

it's very interesting.

You're just using natural rootstock or are you doing grafting?

It's grafting.

Okay. Hmm. Interesting. Well, this show's called— this show's called Listening with Leaders for a reason. And I know that in our Authority Magazine interview, you touched on this, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the podcast to talk about how important listening is. In your work. So talk to us a little bit about the importance of listening and empathy.

So listening and empathy, yes, that's the green one I've learned. For people I work with on a daily basis, listening is absolutely critical. And I listen to their concerns and they have to listen to my you know, my instruction on how we make wine here. And I like to tell people that when I'm telling them something important, they should write it down, because some of our instructions in this business are, again, very precise. And so you want to execute exactly the way that we do it, otherwise things change significantly with the way that a wine is, you know, the way the wine's life can move, you know, move on from where they have that effect. And so yeah, I think that listening is absolutely critical for everyone in this industry. And I, you know, probably in the last 2 years, definitely sit down with my employees to hear them and and what they want to improve themselves on in this position, or what are their ultimate goals in life as they move forward in time with their career. And so I try to make their interests come to life with learning this entire process. And usually everyone that we have work here in the cellar, in the lab, I mean, they're getting on-the-job training, real winemaking on a number of different levels. It's not like— there are some wineries that you get stuck on a job and that's your job the entire time. And so I try to get everybody to be exactly like me, to think like me and act like me in the cellar. So they can make independent decisions because they know the process, they know what to do, and I've demonstrated what they should do. In the end, they can almost be autonomous if they follow the instructions and listen.

How do you make sure, how do you make sure that they're really getting it? You have them repeat back or reflect back what they get, or I mean, what are the processes you, you use to make sure that you are being heard when you're giving direction?

So as of late, I delegate that down because I have so many other— I've got a cellar master and an oenologist where I'll task them with making sure that these things are done now because the scope of my job is so big now that I can't follow through and be that feedback loop micromanager of, right, we talked about what I just said, which is also sometimes a very uncomfortable thing to say. I have actually said that to people in the past and it's like, can you repeat back what I just said? And those are typically the people who aren't writing it down when I'm looking at them saying, how are you going to remember what I just said? Because one of the greatest, one of the greatest mentors I ever had would just look at me and say, you should write that down. And so I wrote down everything that she said, and it served me really well so that every single winemaker that I've ever worked for in my career, when they're talking, I'm writing. And you know, when I say I'm very data-driven, well, I'm gonna basically catalog everything that's coming out of their mouth to say, well, we talked about that and it's right here. So yeah, it, I think accountability in this industry, uh, is important and being accountable to the wines and the process. Like I said, it's perishable. It's quite important.

What do you do when you run across people who aren't paying attention and aren't listening? And maybe they're, maybe they're employees of yours or maybe not. Maybe they're just industry people or marketing people or people, people that you just run, you know, you run across.

I think it's gonna naturally happen. And yeah, you have to have these conversations. I would say the biggest distraction in the workforce right now is phone addiction. And so, you know, for some of the interns, so I bring in interns from all over the world really for harvest. And so they come here and I activate the phone locker system. And so I've got phone lockers. Because I want them to be so focused on the job that they're not going to miss the beat. Because in the end, we want to be safe too. So we're dealing with a perishable product that's high value. We want them to be safe. And yes, there's not going to be any TikToking, maybe next week. There's not going to be any TikToking while you're putting wine in a barrel or topping a barrel. Because there have been incidences where people, people miss the beat because they're doing just that. So I think that that's number one. And, you know, I give people a pass and I want people to be connected to their world, specifically if their mom's going to call them from Argentina in an obscure time or South Africa and so on. I want them to be available for their family member, but then I also want them to be available to the job, which is You know what we're paying them for.

Yeah. I mean, during, during the harvest and the crush, not only are you dealing with a perishable commodity, but you're dealing with all kinds of heavy equipment, both moving equipment and the screws and crushers and pumps and tanks. And I mean, a lot of hydraulic pressure, dangerous operation if you're not paying attention.

It's not just that, Doug. It's, it's these things too. People are listening to music. Oh, and I've had, and so I have to have policy conversations about headphones. And if you're going to have a headphone, you're going to have one. But if you're driving a forklift, you don't have headphones. You can't hear when somebody screams at you, right? That you're, they're in front of you. So yeah, it's a very, you know, again, all in the details and I'm sitting here visualizing this and, you know, I have a crush pad in front of my, my window here. As I'm looking outside as I'm talking to you and I could see it all go on. So yeah, yeah, people should be mindful. People should be aware. People should be safe. And listening, as we're talking about the best ways to listen, well, it's not to wear your AirPods at work all the time. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I really hadn't thought about that. I'm thinking more about listening in terms of, you know, how people interact with each other. Because in my, in my business, what I find is that when people don't listen and you get a conflict arises or mistakes are made and emotions.

Correct.

And that, and that gets people, people riled up and then now you're in the fight and it becomes, you know, something that has to be deescalated. But you're taking it to a whole level when you're thinking about ear, you know, earbuds and phones or eye touches or what playing, listening to music or heaven forbid watching TikTok when you're, running a piece of heavy machinery, you know.

I might agree with, I might agree with Congress on this one.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I think the phone locker idea is a really good idea, especially when you're, you know, when you've got a critical time that everybody has to be on board paying attention to what's going on. It's not like you're doing when you're working, working in the wine, wine industry and you're out on the floor doing the work. There's a lot going on.

You've got it. You've got it.

Where do you see yourself going in the next 10, 15, 20 years? You're still pretty young. How do you see your career?

Geez.

I know you're happy where you are. I'm not saying leave, but maybe, maybe, maybe the question is where's the winery gonna go?

Gosh, these are all really deep questions. And yeah, so my wife and I, kids, you know, we settled in Calistoga and our kids go to school here in St. Helena and we love it here. It's a great community. Napa Valley is a really special place. And, you know, quite honestly, I could never see myself leaving Napa Valley. You know, I've now lived here in Napa longer than I've lived in Illinois. Wow. And so this is, this is my new home. You know, I've lived in a number of different states. And different countries, and this is, no, this is it. So, and ironically, my folks moved down the street from me, and so now I really can't leave. Or I'm going to leave immediately.

That's great. Yeah, yeah, no snow.

And I guess to answer your other questions, you know, there's 3 generations of family members here at the winery. So my owner, Tom Senior, His kids, Tom Jr. and Katie, and then grandson Tommy is our cellar master. Oh, and so, you know, this is a multi-generational family-owned and operated winery, and they've owned it, like I said, for 31 years. And so yeah, in terms of succession planning, they've got it going on and they're in it for the long haul. And yeah, like I said, we have 145 acres. You know, do we grow in the future, sell less fruit? Sure, why not? That would be great. The economy is very interesting right now with just consumption, but I think that we're just in a little bit of a bubble of people, you know, trying to be a little bit more healthy. And the boomers getting a little older, drinking less wine, And so, you know, at some point the younger generation that's, you know, that 23 to 30 will move on from cocktails, beer, et cetera, and kind of go into a more wine-centric lifestyle. That's typically how it runs, kind of a cyclical consumerism level. And yeah, that's, that's where I think we are.

Pretty cool.

As a country.

Yeah, yeah. One question, I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself— I mean, there's so many unique things about you, but what's one unique thing about yourself that we would never know about unless you revealed it to us?

I speak Spanish.

I saw that on your resume. We know that. We saw, and you speak a little bit.

Okay, okay. Um, okay, okay, I'll get you. I I build things, I build things on the side. I'm, you know, out of wood decking and I'm a metalsmith. So yeah, I, yeah. So making rings or, you know, things for my wife when I have time.

Not often, but yeah. Do you?

Not often. No.

I think I saw that. Was it your, it was in your, in the interview we did that you, you did some metalworking classes in college.

Oh my God. I've told you that already. Geez, I play tennis, really a lot of tennis, pickleball.

Good for you. Well, Jason, thank you so much for your time today. It's been great fun and what a really interesting conversation. And it's so— I'm so honored to meet somebody like you who's been so successful in the wine business. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you for having me on, Doug. I really appreciate it. Absolutely.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up, ratings, and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.