199 - From Litigation to Leadership: Mastering the Art of Listening with MacNaughton's Emily Porter

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Emily Porter, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the COO of the Nottman Company, a real estate development firm in Hawaii. But like me, you have a speckled career as a lawyer, former trial lawyer, and like me, have gone off and done a whole bunch of different things other than practicing law. And I just love kindred spirits like you. So I'm so happy to have you on the show.

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Let's start off with just a quick backstory for the audience. I know who you are because I interviewed you for Authority Magazine, but tell everybody who's listening who you are and how you got to where you are. Where you are right now.

Thank you. Well, I'm Emily Tsulan Reber Porter, a local girl from Hawaii. My family came to the islands in the early 1900s, and I really had my full childhood here in Hawaii. My grandmother is 103 years old, still living independently in Hawaii, so we're a very close family. But I also have explored outside of Hawaii quite a bit, went to schools on the East Coast, Princeton and Harvard Law School, lived in Japan, and worked as a litigator in Hawaii and DC, as a technology executive in San Francisco, and now I'm in real estate development and investing, and we've also gotten a lot more into hospitality, so hotel management in the last 2 years.

Wow. So you went to Princeton?

Yes.

I went to Dartmouth. California, it was a culture shock going to New Hampshire. What was it like going from Hawaii to, to Princeton, New Jersey?

It's funny you said Dartmouth because I was seriously considering Dartmouth, and I actually visited Dartmouth and Princeton back to back in the spring. And Dartmouth was quite cold, and Princeton, you know, the tulips were blooming and it was so much warmer. And I thought, okay, I think I could survive here a little bit better. But, you know, I knew I wanted to live in Hawaii forever, and so I decided, hey, why don't you try something so different for a period of time where you wanted to expand your mind I thought Princeton would be great for that. So I'm also Year of the Tiger and Princeton Tigers, so that really worked out well too.

Good for you. Well, I went to Dartmouth for exactly the same reason. I wanted to get as far from California as I could get and see what that would do for me. Where'd you go to— did you go to law school? Where'd you go to law school?

Yes, I went to law school at Harvard Law School. I actually spent a year in Japan before that in college and law school studying human rights. And then Harvard Law School was a, a wonderful experience, but I actually lived with the undergraduates for my last 2 years because law school can be kind of intense. So I thought I would be a resident tutor for undergrads and that would allow me to chill out a little bit more outside of the classroom.

Wow. So you spent what, 8, 7, 8 years on the East Coast before you came back to Hawaii?

Yes, exactly. It was my plan actually to work in a law firm in San Francisco after I graduated. But I met my husband who was stationed in Hawaii in the Navy. So I guess they don't let you just follow your girlfriend wherever she happens to be. So I ended up starting my career in Hawaii and then going back to the mainland and then moving back home, even though my plan was to start on the mainland and then move back home.

Wow. So tell us a little bit about what you do today.

Well, I work at a wonderful company here in Hawaii called McNaughton. We are only about 20 employees in our corporate office, but we do huge projects. I chose it because it is a multi-generational family-owned business that is really deeply rooted in the culture of Hawaiʻi, but they're so innovative and have such high integrity that it sort of married what I loved about working in the San Francisco Bay Area with innovation and my love for Hawaiʻi. So I'm the Chief Operating Officer. I help the CEO with and he needs. We are moving the company forward. We're scaling. So I'm sort of in charge of all the people in the operations. And, you know, it's been an amazing ride. It's been almost 9 years now, and we have done so many different kinds of projects across multiple sectors. And, you know, never a dull moment, that's for sure.

So, so does McNaughton operate solely in Hawaii?

Actually, we have our employees in Hawaii, But we also have real estate on the mainland. During my tenure, we have purchased a couple of apartment buildings, multifamily living in the Pacific Northwest. And although we didn't build those buildings, we've acquired them and we've sort of upgraded them to our standards and infused kind of the service offering that we like here in Hawaiʻi.

So how do you— how would you compare being in business as a senior executive in a family business to being a lawyer, trial lawyer?

Ah, interesting question. Hmm. So when I was a trial lawyer, and you'll probably resonate with this, it's very exciting. You are using your intellectual capabilities and communication skills, both written and verbal, to really articulate your client's position. And oftentimes that has to do with what's already happened in the past. So even though it's really exciting, you're kind of looking backwards a lot. And when I had my second child, I decided that I wanted to switch careers to something that looked a little bit more forward and was more focused on building and creating. So fast forward to my current role, I feel like what I'm doing is helping this family grow and create their legacy. In a way that's really good for, um, Hawaiʻi and our community. So it's, it's really meaningful. Um, you still use a lot of skills that I learned as a litigator, um, understanding people, positions, um, diagnosing situations, and then, uh, communicating with colleagues, partners, and the community. But it's more forward-looking and kind of creating something new.

I think what I'm picking up is the same thing that happened to me, and that is that the law has its place, but to really be happy, you need to create meaning in your life, and the work that you have to do has to be meaningful. And I knew that, as although I spent 22 years as a trial lawyer, it didn't create a lot of meaning for me. I mean, I did— I won some really big cases, but, you know, at the end of the day, it's only money. And And so for you, I mean, I can just see you're kind of glowing as you think about the people you work with and the kinds of things you're doing that are having a positive effect on where you live. And that's exciting.

And I hear it in your voice too. I mean, when you turn to reflect on your transition, you kind of slowed down in your voice. And I heard something that was just really from your heart. And that's how I feel. I mean, I seek meaning in whatever I do. So as a trial attorney, you know, I took pro bono cases where I felt like I was really advocating for, you know, one single person, a human in a difficult situation, even litigating, you know, for companies, you know, that impacted a lot of people's lives. So I did my best to find the most meaning. But it's just so easy when you're in sort of other industries and jobs where it's just the meaning is, is there. Even in my technology company, the mission was to help people, right? So Alan Dershowitz was my law professor for criminal law at Harvard Law School. He was actually an incredible professor, and he said, you know, you can do well and good at the same time. And that's what I've loved to do in my tech company and here at McNaughton.

So what does it get that gets you up in the morning and gets you excited to go to work?

Wow. Well, first of all, I just love the people I work with, and I feel like we are actually making a great difference in Hawaiʻi, in the people's lives who are employed by the company and at our hotels, but also in the community. You know, your Listening with Leaders title resonates a lot because real estate development and investing has a lot to do with listening to the market. And the market is the people here in Hawaiʻi. What are the community needs? And, and sort of going in that direction. That's a piece of it.

Uh-huh.

A piece of it is, you know, you might have noticed that I'm a woman, I'm a multi-ethnic, I'm from Hawaii. I might not be who you would normally think of as the COO of a real estate development and investment company, nor the, you know, executive at a tech company, or even as a big litigator, big scary litigator. So I like being a different In the case of leadership, I like, you know, kind of enlarging people's idea of what a leader might look like and how a leader might act. It matters a lot to me to be somebody who others could maybe see in theirselves. And a lot of the board work I do has to do with really growing that diversity in leadership. So, you know, I find a lot of meaning in my role in the company and also sort of what that stands for for other people too.

So you're a role model for younger women that can see what can— what's doable, that there are no limits, really.

I, I hope so. I try to be. And also, it's funny because I have two sons and somebody told me, oh, it's too bad you have sons. You know, you should definitely be a mom of girls. And I said, hey, it's just as important for my boys to understand what people are capable of and you know, all people, and they really do. They grew up knowing nothing different. So I'm very proud of, you know, how they think about people in the world too.

That's really cool. So what do you think is unique about you that you bring to the table as a COO of a real estate development firm that makes you successful and also makes the firm successful?

Great question. I think in high school I was that kid who had friends from a lot of different groups. And what I noticed about myself in my tech company and at McNaughton is that I really enjoy cross-functional knowledge, people, expertise, and operations. You know, people have talked to me about sort of being the glue or being the culture builder or solving problems that are cross-functional. Or finding solutions or innovating cross-functionally. I guess I would say that is my sort of unique interest and ability. And some of that has to do with just understanding people and being interested and curious.

It also sounds to me like, and that's a, that sounds right. That resonates with me. But I'm also thinking that as lawyers, especially as trial lawyers, we're trained every time we get a new case, it's a new industry we have to learn.

So true.

And, and so we— it's never— it's not like personal injury or criminal defense where it's the same thing, just the names change. In business and commercial litigation, complex litigation, it's— everything's new every time, every time. And so you learn in that process how to open your mind up to what's going on and how all the gears work together. And that sounds to me like you've developed that skill.

That is absolutely true. I mean, I am rarely the most knowledgeable person in the room. But as you just alluded to, we are trained at an early age to learn to pick up a whole new set of facts and figure it out and then actually, you know, bring in the experts to teach us and our clients and the jurors about the particular subject area. You also have to learn a whole new different area of law oftentimes.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, you know, it also changes all the time. So I am used to not knowing everything and being good at finding the people who can make us all smarter and get to the right answer together, which I think is also why I'm very strong in collaborative approaches, which is not right all the time. But, you know, running a case, you have so many people that you're coordinating with, and I love doing that in business too.

Yeah, my— when I was— I went back to school mid-career to get my master's degree in peacemaking and conflict studies. 48 years old, back to graduate school. Well, one of the things my— one of my mentors told me was that I'm a really good integrator. I can take different ideas, disparate ideas from different places that seem to be not connected at all and show how they connect and then create something new. And I'm getting the sense that you have that same skill.

I'm getting the sense that you're a tremendous listener and you're doing that right now. So I have been told that as well. Even when I'm on Zooms, for example, with all kinds of people talking about a new topic, oftentimes I will throw up a little PowerPoint that I will create while I'm listening, and it will sort of summarize and synthesize all the ideas and information into like one succinct slide and say, okay, what I'm hearing is this, is that about right? And It seems so natural to me. It's because I'm just trying to make sense of things.

I know.

Yeah.

And people, their jaws drop and they say, how do you do that?

Exactly. Is that the legal training? I didn't put that together before.

I don't think so. I think it's an innate ability that I think that law school develops. But I have not met, other than you, I can't think I've ever met anybody who thinks kind of that, that way.

Well, I think we're gonna have to meet in person someday then, because that's pretty—

you're a good excuse to bring my wife over to Hawaii.

Bring her, stay at one of our 3 hotels, they're amazing.

So obviously this show is called Listening with Leaders, and one of the things that I'm interested in as I talk to people like you is how you develop your listening skills. I— we develop listening skills as lawyers But they're not the kind of listening skills that are going to work in, in when we're working with people because we're listening for a very specific agenda, especially when we're getting ready to cross-examine somebody. Those, those skills don't work so well most of the time.

How did you—

you have excellent listening skills. How did you develop them?

I love that question, especially when you start from the point of what we were trained to do as litigators. As litigators, you're trained to listen, but the listening, the purpose of that is to gather facts to then make your own argument, right? So it's almost like the opposite of good listening skills.

Exactly.

So I appreciate the question. When I became the first lawyer at my company in San Francisco, I was in-house counsel, and in the beginning I was used to hearing people's requests, product development, etc., and then telling them, okay, this is what the, the answer is according to the law. You can do it, you can't do it, etc. And it took me a little while to realize that I wasn't actually doing a very good job for them. What I needed to learn was, what are they really trying to achieve with this product idea? Like, really understand where they're coming from. So that the answer I could give back to them wasn't yes, you can, no, you can't, etc., but how they could meet their business goals. So that's the first time that my listening skills, I think, really shifted out of a necessity based on my colleagues. And, and that was very helpful. I think another time I'm realizing I really shifted my listening skills is in raising my children. When they became teenagers, I noticed that my older boy, who I'm very close to— I'm close with both of our children— didn't want to have me direct him so much. And so I actually started taking coaching classes because I wanted to learn how to communicate with him better. And what I learned in the coaching class is that it's really about you not being the expert, recognizing the other person as completely whole and capable, and trying to really bring out the genius in them. And that's all about listening. It's not about you getting what you have in mind out, but it's just, you know, getting to know them and helping them get to know themselves. It's funny, Duncan MacNaughton at our company, our founder, he said People have two ears and one mouth. No, there's a reason.

That's an old aphorism. Yeah, you stumbled onto the great secret. I call it listening other people into existence. And there is Type 1 listening and Type 2 listening. Type 1 listening is what we do as lawyers. We're listening, but we have no interest in validating the speaker or making sure the speaker feels heard. That's not our job. Our job is to gather information process it, and then regurgitate it in whatever appropriate way is needed to advocate for the client. And most other kinds of listening is Type 1 listening. Most people agenda, their agenda when they listen is for their own self, not for somebody else. Type 2 listening, which you described beautifully, is the agenda is to make sure the speaker feels heard from the speaker's frame of reference.

Us.

So I have no ego involved when I'm listening. I'm here to make sure that you feel deeply heard. And when you feel deeply heard, when you're validated, all kinds of magic happens. And that's in, in my work as a peacemaker and mediator. I can calm any angry person in 90 seconds or less. I can teach anybody they want how to never have a fight or argument again in their lives. I mean, imagine eliminating all fights and arguments. All by how you listen. And that's the power of it. And you described it beautifully.

You know that I love that. And, you know, the level 3 listening— I'm going to describe it incorrectly, probably you're much more eloquent— is about— I call it like reading the room. So I think that's the third area, right? Where when you're a leader and you have lots of different people in meetings, understanding maybe who's not feeling so good or whose voice isn't coming out or when people are going back or forward. And, and that's another really important skill also in negotiation.

That's right.

So, so I really, I feel like I learned that as a leader too.

Yeah. So what I teach people how to listen— I, what I teach is ignore the words, listen to the emotions. And because, because the beauty of it is when you do that is that all memory is associated with emotion. So you can be telling me something and I can ignore what you're saying and listen to your emotions, and I will still be able to repeat back verbatim what you said because there's an emotional connection to your words that my brain can process.

Well, I love the quote that people may not remember what you say, but they'll remember how they made you feel. And I feel like that is the emotional resonance too, for sure. And actually, you're talking about peacemaking. Another passion of mine has to do with healthy relationships. I've served on the boards of a lot of— not a lot, but a few domestic violence organizations. And what I've noticed is that the problem doesn't seem to be getting a lot better.

No.

And it's, it's very unfortunate. So just recently I have turned my attention to prevention because a lot of the organizations focus on folks who are already in terrible situations and how to help them out of it. And it's, it's so difficult. So prevention is a piece of it that I think is a little bit under sort of developed. And healthy relationships, I think, is, is the education that needs to come in. And a lot of that has to do, I think, with, you know, making sure you're in a relationship where there is mutual respect, good communication, diffusing situations. So maybe at a later date, I can pick your brain a little bit about that because we're working on curriculum relating to health.

This is the foundational skill of life. And I, I don't know if you know, but I've worked in maximum security prisons for the last 15 years training life and long-term inmates how to stop prison violence using these skills. And the transformations have been unbelievable.

Wow. They must feel wonderful when they learn those skills too.

Yeah, we've had 700 people in California released on parole, and as far as I know, we've only had one person reoffend.

Amazing. That's how powerful I will definitely read more about that, for sure.

Well, one more question. I'll let you go.

What's one—

what's something about yourself, Emily, that we wouldn't know about unless you revealed it to us?

Hmm. Well, I'm a fairly open book. That's me. What you see is what you get. But I guess if you dig back into my childhood, you would see a lot of Grains of Sand in my textbooks because I did a lot of my studying at the beach. It's, it's, you know, me as a local girl. I liked being studious as well as enjoying Hawaiʻi. And it, it's kind of a full circle moment for me because now that my business has brought me back to Hawaiʻi and we're in hospitality, I get to use my brain and all that I've learned in terms of people to share Hawaiʻi with, you know, lots of other folks. So kind of full circle moment for me in my career and thinking back as a child when I was this girl at the beach studying and then jumping in the water when it got too hot.

That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a great conversation.

It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Aloha.

You're welcome. Aloha.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes, go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Wanna know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.