203 - The Power of Pursuing Passion to Lead in Success with KBI Biopharma's Sigma Mostafa

Welcome to Listening with Leaders. I'm Doug Noll, lawyer turned peacemaker. I teach executive leaders how to listen to emotions rather than words so that they can become the leaders everyone wants to follow. And I teach those same leaders how to be authentically present, available, and connected to their families despite being insanely busy. I have learned that we are 98% emotional and only 2% rational. Learning how to listen to emotions is, in my experience, the foundational skill of life. Stick around to the end of the show, and I'll reveal how you can be on our next guest in 15 to 20 minutes. So let's get started.

Sigmar Mustafa, welcome to Listening with Leaders. You are the Chief Scientific Officer for KBI Biopharma, which can be found at kbi-biopharma.com. You have an amazing story to tell about your life. I can hardly wait to hear it. Thanks for showing up. Really appreciate it.

Thank you, Doug. Thank you for having me on this program.

Absolutely. Well, let's start at the beginning because I suspect that you— to get to where you are today as the Chief Science Officer of a pretty important a pharma company, you, you had a lot of climbing to do. Where did it all start?

Sure.

Yeah.

So my backstory is I was born in a small country next to India called Bangladesh, and I grew up there and immigrated with my family to the US after high school. My name also oftentimes raises a little bit of curiosity. So Sigma is a Greek alphabet. My dad was a mathematician who named me Sigma. I actually did not like my name growing up because it was just so different from everyone else's name. So I, I did though, from childhood, really was interested in engineering and biology and wanted to be at the intersection of those two fields. So after immigrating, I did my undergraduate at University of Texas at Austin and then my PhD at Northwestern University, both in chemical engineering and then immediately post-PhD joined Eli Lilly. I was there for many years and then moved to Fujifilm Diosynth, which is a contract development manufacturing company. And subsequently, 14 years back, I joined KBI and built the process development and manufacturing services group grounds up there.

So tell us a little bit about what your role is as the chief the Chief Scientific Officer for Cure?

Sure, sure. So I'm responsible for the direction, technical direction of the company, and I also have all the lab groups. So our cell line process analytical groups, it's about 600 people that report through my organization.

Tell us, tell us a little bit about the company. What, what's it involved in?

So we are a contract development manufacturing organization. Essentially what we do is we develop and manufacture drugs, therapeutic drugs that go to, uh, clinical trials or to the market. So my interest from childhood has been to have real impact, tangible impact, and what better way to do that than, you know, bring drugs to patients?

Yeah.

So who would be your typical clients?

They are biotech and pharma companies who are outsourcing their products for development and manufacturing. Yeah.

So you'll have a, you'll have a company that, that has an idea, or they've developed something, and they— are you involved in doing clinical trials as well, or is it just post-clinical trials when you're ready to start manufacturing and distributing?

So we are involved before the clinical trial. Usually we are receiving the DNA sequence, the information on the protein, and we are producing the actual protein product, something let's say like insulin or any of the cancer antibody drugs, and then we are purifying them, sending them to clinic for administration, or, you know, it's going into the market for commercial use.

So it would be— not being a— I'm a lawyer, sorry. I don't have a lot of science background. So let's say you've got a group of researchers.

Yes.

And they've developed a a compound, a product, or an idea for developing compound, would they come to you and say, assuming they had the money, they come to you and say, hey, we've got— we, we'd like to have you manufacture this product in sufficient quantities that we can get FDA approval and start clinical trials?

That is, that is exactly correct. Oftentimes our customers have an idea, or they have done something in a very, very small scale, which then may or may not be scalable, right? You don't really know if that product will be stable, can really be produced in large quantity, et cetera. So we do all the analyticals, we do all the scale-up and robustness studies. These are multi-year work usually that ultimately gets you the GMP-approved, FDA-approved product that can be administered to humans.

So, so basically you, you're commercializing the ideas that maybe academics or scholars or researchers have developed.

That's right. Yes.

And that's, that's essentially what you do. And are you, I know you can find to, again, my ignorance shows you were talking about proteins and DNA and therapy and cancer therapy and stuff like that. Are you, is that, do you guys, are, are you in a niche where in, in this kind of commercialization space, or, or is it broader?

We are— we make everything that's protein-based. Protein-based, right. So there are essentially, when we talk about medicines, there are two types of medicines. Some are chemically produced, right, they are called small molecules. And then what's large molecules are proteins. We do all types, so not just cancer therapy or any particular indication, but all types of indications.

Okay, I got it. I think, I think I understand.

Awesome.

You've been doing this for 14 years. How long have you been the Chief Scientific Officer?

I've been Chief Scientific Officer about a year now.

Okay.

Before that, I was site head for our largest site, so I was responsible for, uh, the development and all the manufacturing. Prior to that, I built the process development business.

So here you are, you know, pretty much at the top. I don't know whether you have aspirations of going higher into management, but it sounds like you're pretty high right now. What is it that gets you up in the morning, gets you excited to go to work?

Two things. One is I really enjoy working with the people we have. We have so many smart, talented, mission-driven scientists day to day. Talking with them, seeing them grow. I really enjoy problem solving, all of that. And the other is ultimately the impact. Like we literally every year work on drugs, probably upward of 15 that go into clinic. We are commercializing products. These are oftentimes first in class or best in class drugs. So it's extremely motivating, actually.

I can imagine. I mean, you, you, you encounter drugs that really save lives.

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

And, and I'm curious over the years how you have seen the science evolve around developing protein-based drugs and what kind of miracles we're seeing today. I hear about all this stuff. I don't understand it, but I just keep thinking that breakthrough after breakthrough. Is that kind of been your experience?

Absolutely. Technology is changing at a faster and faster pace. Right. And even what we have seen with some of the COVID drugs and the switch to mRNA-based drugs is a big change. And the change came faster because, because of the pandemic. Yeah, technology changes, the modalities and the success rate, all of those are going in the right direction for sure.

What do you think artificial intelligence is going to do to your business?

Only good things, actually. So AI is playing a role in, you know, identifying molecules all the way to data mining and essentially a lot of automation around, you know, hands-free essentially execution, right? So we use AI for very early on checking the robustness of the molecules. We use AI for sequencing, looking at any kind of modifications mutation that might be happening. So yeah, it's all good. I, I don't see it as a threat at all.

And, and you see that AI is just going to become more and more important in the business as time goes?

Absolutely. I, I think it, it can be a leverage, but it essentially will be absolutely needed. Otherwise you won't be able to survive in this business.

Interesting. Yeah. So you have all this experience. You have an interesting life journey from Bangladesh to the United States. What is it that's unique about you, Sigma, that has made you successful and allowed you to rise to the Chief Scientific Officer of KBI Biopharma?

So I would mention a few things. So I'm definitely the, you know, the scientific technical dimension and my, you know, leadership experience, extensive experience. But one thing perhaps people don't realize about me is I'm tough as nails psychologically.

You're what?

I'm very tough. Yeah, as a nail. So, so what that does is I, I'm typically not diverted from my goal once I set a goal. So I, I believe in long-term planning, right? So even if I'm, you know, I have a short-term failure, I usually don't give up. I think the, just the tenacity and the grit are probably the main quality, as opposed to, you know, just getting things right every time.

Right. And that is a quality that I think that I have in all of the 200 people that I've interviewed on the show so far, 200 or more. That is one of the qualities that I see most often. It's persistence, tenacity, grit, and an abiding hatred of giving up and failing. Not failing, because everybody makes mistakes, but not giving up.

Right. And I find in terms of, you know, within STEM and women, next generation scientists coming into the field, I find that overall more and more women are in STEM and they do start in industry, but that staying with it longer term and not giving up, especially when you have certain challenge around not being able to network to the same level, perhaps a work-life blending, you know, how do you balance that? Those challenges might be more, you know, unique for women, and that's where I see women giving up sometimes. And that's one of the things I definitely try to address with individuals I mentor. And I talk with.

How do you manage all that work-life balance and, you know, not having the ability to network as well as men? I mean, you had to— and also being a woman of color, I mean, it's a lot of barriers. How did you manage that?

So I think I've been very lucky to have strong mentors and I'm very transparent as— and I think I'm self-aware on what my weaknesses are and what my strengths are. And I play with my strength, right? And Yeah, I just have been successful in maybe even the right roles at the right times.

So what do you—

what do you—

I'm going to guess again, so if I, if I'm— if, if I misstate myself, correct me, but I have a sense that you are— you, you have had the opportunity to talk to many young women who are possibly considering getting into STEM, right? When you talk to them, what do you tell them?

I tell them to, you know, think about life in terms of then what impact you want to have on others, what will be truly satisfactory to you, and how fast technology is moving, where, you know, the direction of technology, and that STEM is the right place to be and It doesn't mean that if you have interest, obviously, on the, you know, humanity side, you can always balance those. And I also talk about staying with it, right? Despite certain phases of your life, you have to make choices and maybe you leave workforce, but you come back again, right? And start back where you left off.

Right. So, I mean, I guess what you're saying is that if a young woman makes a choice to get married, raise a family, Right.

Exactly.

Do that. And when your kids are old enough, you still have your skills. Maybe you have to do a little brushing up on recent developments, but you can always come back into the workforce.

Exactly.

And, and not leave.

Right. Right.

So, so this show is called Listening with Leaders. And as you prob— I think as you know, cuz you saw, studied a little bit about me, uh, I'm a lawyer turned peacemaker and my What I've learned is that when you really learn how to listen to people so they feel heard, magic happens. I'm curious about how you, you learned how to listen about your career, because I would guess that early on you were probably ignored a lot, right?

I do think that listening is effective when there is a foundation of trust and mutual respect and caring. So building the relationship and then, you know, listening becomes then an effective modality basically, right, to just strengthen that foundation. In terms of me listening to others, yeah, I, I early on in my career, I used to be a little impatient. Over time, I'm down and I'm a better listener for sure. I also used to try to solve the problem immediately, right? Myself. And now I listen, um, and, you know, really try to lead the person to the solution, which is, which is still challenging for me sometimes.

But yeah, I, I mean, we, we have a natural inclination, especially if we're smart, to try— we— somebody presents us with a problem or an issue and we immediately want to take our critical reasoning skills critical thinking skills and apply our intellect to the problem and solve it because we can do it. I mean, that's just the way we're trained, the way we think, and natural. But that sometimes can be the worst thing you can do.

Exactly, because my role is not to go and solve every problem. My role is to, you know, have next generation leaders and have a robust organization that, that can function, right? Themselves.

So, so part of— I would think that part of what you're doing is working 2 or 3 levels below you. You said you had something like 600 people working, so you must have 3 or 4 layers at least of people below you. And you're working down into the layers, training people how to solve their own problems and how to—

exactly—

stuff, and how to listen and how to, how to become leaders themselves. So that they can grow in the organization as they, as they wish and as they have the attitude for doing it.

Yeah, I think it's a, it's a balance for me because I, you know, I want to grow people and have them solve, but I also want to have, have the pulse of the organization and know where things might be faltering and jump in and gather people as needed, right, to mobilize a team as needed. So over time, I have, you know, I've learned how to do that essentially. But talking about listening, it's a skill. It's, you know, for me, on the other hand, certainly, you know, early on, being listened to was also difficult, as you pointed out, right? It's a— and I'm naturally a pretty quiet person, so it, um, it has been challenging. But I think over time I've again learned to focus on the facts, focus on the problem-solving side of things, and, and things tend to work out. Yeah.

How do you avoid micromanaging?

I had to learn it because my early jobs, I was a bit of a micromanager, I think, and You know, it's, it's a question of how do you get the information so you know things are moving, progressing properly, but not actually be in the weeds. And, and I'm— and now I'm very much, you know, hands-off, except, you know, I, I get the right updates and the right trackers, so, and the right metrics, basically. So I know that the organization is performing as it should.

So if you were, if you were talking to younger people who are rising in leadership, and I think the hardest transition is from a producer to moving to a leader.

Yes.

Because when you're leading, you're no longer producing.

Mhm.

And if you're not ready for that transition, you're gonna— all your identity is wrapped up in producing, and so you're going to tend to micromanage because that's producing, right?

Very correct.

How do you manage the anxiety that arises in that transition?

So I do a lot of coaching to, you know, new managers, and oftentimes we find people who are star scientists, star producers, as you're saying, they find it hard to let go, and they, they have very high expectations of themselves and their team. But, you know, we have a lot of trainings as well, and basically we create their performance, you know, expectations based on your successes. If your team succeeds, right, and they're happy, and you're retaining them, and you're growing them, so— and you are not just succeeding in your department but across other departments, across the organization, you are impactful. So it, it takes a bit of time for people to get adjusted to it because they think their results are just those products that are being produced.

So I would think that it would be hard for somebody who's a scientist and has gone through a PhD program and postdoc years and years and years of study, and then maybe 4 or 5 years of actually doing lab work and actually doing science, to drop that and become a leader where you're not doing that anymore. That would have to be hard.

That is hard. And what we see is that usually there are two ladders, right? At some point, people become managers and they can move on the management ladder, or they stay in the science ladder and they may not have too many direct reports, but they become advisors and fellows. So that is partly because of the, you know, uh, some personality differences we see. And the best of scientists are not always the best of managers. Those, those are good conversations, and people usually come to the same realization at some point that this is a better choice for them. This is where their satisfaction lies. And maybe they just want to be very close to science.

And how do you identify people who may have an aptitude for leadership?

We create a lot of opportunities early on for leadership. We, and see, you know, give people chances, right? And knowing that they may or may not succeed. And those who do tend to move very quickly.

Wow.

Yeah.

So I, again, I'm— it seems to me that you're— it must be very gratifying for you to see young people either go up the science ladder and mature as scientists or jump ship and start going up the management ladder to become leaders and watching them mature and develop. Right. Got to be very satisfying.

It is. And I have in my leadership team that my immediate direct reports, a lot of people who I recruited maybe a decade ago, and seeing them now be great leaders is truly one of the best achievements for me.

So what do you think's next in your life? Are you going to stay as Chief Scientific Officer, or can you go higher or do something different?

So my focus is, I, as I said, I became a CSO about a year ago, so a lot to do. We are expanding very fast. And we are determined to be the leader in the next generation CDMOs. So I'm very focused there. I do have other interests and gradually focusing more on how to give back, right? So both here in the US and in Bangladesh, I'm associated with some, you know, NGOs and some volunteer organizations, and I'm very interested in disadvantaged youth and their education. How to, you know, computer skills or just vocational skills building. So I'm, you know, in my off time, those are the things I'm focusing on. But right now, being a good CSO is the focus.

It's a full-time job, isn't it?

A full-time job. Yes.

But, but I think you're on to something that's really important that I've learned, and that is that it's not about the paycheck. If you're not creating meaning in your own life, either because of the work you do or because you have outside interests or passionate about, for example, helping disadvantaged youth learn, then it becomes kind of a flat existence.

It's not possible. I think you have to love your job to do, you know, this kind of job. It's, it's a lot of work and Yeah, absolutely. I don't think you can maintain the balance, you know, in work-life balance and continue day in, day out doing the job without enjoying it.

Yeah. And that's what I tell young people. I tell them, don't worry about the money. Follow your passion for a while. I mean, you got to be practical at some point in time, of course. And your passion has to be It can't be a narcissistic passion like you want to be a rock star, right? If you have a passion to help people, right, or serve others, follow that for a while and see where it leads you. In my case, it led me to leave the practice of law, serve others as a peacemaker, and that led me into training people serving life sentences in maximum security prisons, how to stop prison violence. Very different, very different, right? But to your point, it's— that's the kind of work that creates meaning and makes, makes what you do worthwhile and gives you self-esteem. And as a human being, exactly, we're doing stuff for other people.

Totally agree.

Really cool. So one more question and I'll let you go. What's one thing about yourself that we wouldn't know about unless you revealed it to us?

Well, it's a family sort of a trend we have that I don't think anyone would be able to guess, you know, if, if they met me, is we are really into acting. So my dad, who was a mathematician and who named me Sigma, later in his life became a film director. In Bangladesh. And when I started undergrad, I was a— I had a dual major of math and acting, and then I switched to engineering eventually. So yeah, we are really passionate about acting, movies, theater, etc. I would say that not to become an actor and become an engineer instead, but—

well, I would have never guessed, but I can understand it. I mean, you wouldn't know this, but I play jazz violin.

Ah, there you go.

Oh, there you go. And it's funny how we work both sides, right? The hard science, the logical thinking, the scientific method versus, to your point, the humanities, the music and the art, drama, theater. What fun is that? Well, Seimei, it's been a real joy talking with you. Thank you so much for taking some time out of your busy schedule to be with me today.

Thank you, Doug. Really enjoyed the conversation.

Thank you. You're welcome.

Doug Noll here. Thank you so much for listening to Listening with Leaders. If you are a successful executive leader who would like to be on this program, please visit podcast.dougnull.com/podcast. If you got something out of this interview, would you please share this episode on social media? Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone that would be a great guest, tag them on the social media to let them know about the show and include the hashtag #ListeningWithLeaders. I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don't miss any episodes. Go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Go to my website, DougNoll.com, or follow me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. That's @DouglasEnoll. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next show.